Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

I'd like to replace the muffler on my 94 Accord LX with either a
Honda part or one made by Bosal (281-365). But in looking carefully
at how the original muffler is mounted, I see that there are three
oval rubber hangers that hold the muffler in place. It's not clear
how I would deal with these hangers. The metal bars that go into
the holes in the hangers are welded to the car or the muffler, and
the hangers don't look very stretchy. Do they just "persuade" on
and off with enough force, or is there some trick I don't know
about?

Any other advice on doing this job? I'm planning on needing new
nuts/bolts and a new gasket. Actually, it looks pretty
straightforward if I can figure out how to deal with the hangers.

Thanks for any advice.

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

Peabody <waybackNO784SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote in news:O7WTm.88269$rE5.33924
@newsfe08.iad:

> I'd like to replace the muffler on my 94 Accord LX with either a
> Honda part or one made by Bosal (281-365). But in looking carefully
> at how the original muffler is mounted, I see that there are three
> oval rubber hangers that hold the muffler in place. It's not clear
> how I would deal with these hangers. The metal bars that go into
> the holes in the hangers are welded to the car or the muffler, and
> the hangers don't look very stretchy. Do they just "persuade" on
> and off with enough force, or is there some trick I don't know
> about?



They just "persuade off". The rubber is extremely tough, so don't worry
about tearing them. But with your car's age, it wouldn't be a bad idea at
all to buy new ones (about $5 each) from the dealer.

When reinstalling, use some dishwashing liquid as a lube to make everything
slide back together again.

Sand off the rust from the metal bars that are attached to the car's body.
This will reduce their effective diameters so as to make it easier to get
the hangers back onto the wires.

A couple of screwdrivers as "helpers" is also handy.

If you plan on keeping the car for a long time, I would STRONGLY suggest
the OEM Honda part in spite of the cost. It's /far/ better quality than any
aftermarket, and the purchase price comes with a lifetime guarantee that
puts the aftermarket to shame.

Remember that the Honda part is one-piece from the back of the B-pipe to
the tailpipe. And you'll notice the hangers are far more robust than
aftermarket.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

Tegger says...

> They just "persuade off". The rubber is extremely tough,
> so don't worry about tearing them. But with your car's
> age, it wouldn't be a bad idea at all to buy new ones
> (about $5 each) from the dealer.

Thanks very much for the clarification, Tegger.

> If you plan on keeping the car for a long time, I would
> STRONGLY suggest the OEM Honda part in spite of the
> cost. It's /far/ better quality than any aftermarket,
> and the purchase price comes with a lifetime guarantee
> that puts the aftermarket to shame.

Well, what I'm looking at is a direct-fit replacement made
by Bosal. These are available at RockAuto for about $90,
that's for #281-365, and a Honda would be $219 at the
dealer, or maybe $150 online. But the Bosal is not a
generic oval can. It looks exactly like the Honda muffler,
installs the same way, and supposedly is made of aluminzed
steel, whatever that means.

Is there a chance the Bosal would be the same quality as
Honda, or that Bosal is even the Honda US muffler supplier?

http://www.bosalna.com/index.php?mod=exhaust

But,if you were going to buy a genuine Honda muffler, where
would you shop for the best price?

If I have this done by a local shop (not the dealer), I'm
looking at $275 for a Honda muffler, installed. I'm pretty
handy, but of course don't have a lift. So I have mixed
feelings about trying this myself. In theory it should be
doable - I have the right sockets for the front bolts, and
if I can persuade the rubber hangers, I really don't see why
it wouldn't work. It would be nice to save all that money
for maybe an hour's work.

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

"Peabody" <waybackNO784SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9cZTm.49774$ky1.6239@newsfe14.iad...
> Tegger says...
>
> > They just "persuade off". The rubber is extremely tough,
> > so don't worry about tearing them. But with your car's
> > age, it wouldn't be a bad idea at all to buy new ones
> > (about $5 each) from the dealer.
>
> Thanks very much for the clarification, Tegger.
>
> > If you plan on keeping the car for a long time, I would
> > STRONGLY suggest the OEM Honda part in spite of the
> > cost. It's /far/ better quality than any aftermarket,
> > and the purchase price comes with a lifetime guarantee
> > that puts the aftermarket to shame.
>
> Well, what I'm looking at is a direct-fit replacement made
> by Bosal. These are available at RockAuto for about $90,
> that's for #281-365, and a Honda would be $219 at the
> dealer, or maybe $150 online. But the Bosal is not a
> generic oval can. It looks exactly like the Honda muffler,
> installs the same way, and supposedly is made of aluminzed
> steel, whatever that means.
>
> Is there a chance the Bosal would be the same quality as
> Honda, or that Bosal is even the Honda US muffler supplier?
>
> http://www.bosalna.com/index.php?mod=exhaust
>
> But,if you were going to buy a genuine Honda muffler, where
> would you shop for the best price?
>
> If I have this done by a local shop (not the dealer), I'm
> looking at $275 for a Honda muffler, installed. I'm pretty
> handy, but of course don't have a lift. So I have mixed
> feelings about trying this myself. In theory it should be
> doable - I have the right sockets for the front bolts, and
> if I can persuade the rubber hangers, I really don't see why
> it wouldn't work. It would be nice to save all that money
> for maybe an hour's work.
>
>

Don't forget, it's about $50 a knuckle these days, so if you draw
blood on 3 or 4, the dealer cost starts to look a lot better!

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

Peabody <waybackNO784SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote in news:9cZTm.49774$ky1.6239
@newsfe14.iad:


>
> Well, what I'm looking at is a direct-fit replacement made
> by Bosal. These are available at RockAuto for about $90,
> that's for #281-365, and a Honda would be $219 at the
> dealer, or maybe $150 online. But the Bosal is not a
> generic oval can. It looks exactly like the Honda muffler,
> installs the same way, and supposedly is made of aluminzed
> steel, whatever that means.
>
> Is there a chance the Bosal would be the same quality as
> Honda, or that Bosal is even the Honda US muffler supplier?



Bosal is indeed a Honda OEM supplier, but that doesn't mean they sell the
same quality into the aftermarket that they do to Honda. FRAM is also a
Honda supplier, but are their aftermarket filters the same as what they
sell to Honda?

It's highly unlikely the aftermarket part is exactly the same as the Honda
one. Don't just look at the can, look also at the rest of the system. Is
the steel of equal thickness and quality? Are the hangers exactly the same?
Are the mounting flanges exactly the same? Are the welds of equal quality?



>
> http://www.bosalna.com/index.php?mod=exhaust
>
> But,if you were going to buy a genuine Honda muffler, where
> would you shop for the best price?



Any Honda dealer. Nobody but a Honda dealer can sell Honda parts. Ask all
the dealers in your area for their price.



>
> If I have this done by a local shop (not the dealer), I'm
> looking at $275 for a Honda muffler, installed.



It won't be OEM Honda, but an aftermarket "OEM spec" muffler. "OEM spec"
means they tried a (very) little bit harder to make it less crappy than
their usual aftermarket .



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubberhangers?
 

I purchased a Walker muffler and pipe from Rockauto.com for my '96
Accord. Looks and fit like the stock unit. Reused the rubber
hangars, but got new gaskets and bolts as well as a stainless tip.
Nice and quiet again.! They were offereing a $40 rebate on the
muffler when I purchased it.

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubberhangers?
 

Tegger wrote:
> Peabody <waybackNO784SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote in news:9cZTm.49774$ky1.6239
> @newsfe14.iad:
>
>
>> Well, what I'm looking at is a direct-fit replacement made
>> by Bosal. These are available at RockAuto for about $90,
>> that's for #281-365, and a Honda would be $219 at the
>> dealer, or maybe $150 online. But the Bosal is not a
>> generic oval can. It looks exactly like the Honda muffler,
>> installs the same way, and supposedly is made of aluminzed
>> steel, whatever that means.
>>
>> Is there a chance the Bosal would be the same quality as
>> Honda, or that Bosal is even the Honda US muffler supplier?
>
> Bosal is indeed a Honda OEM supplier, but that doesn't mean they sell the
> same quality into the aftermarket that they do to Honda. FRAM is also a
> Honda supplier, but are their aftermarket filters the same as what they
> sell to Honda?
>
> It's highly unlikely the aftermarket part is exactly the same as the Honda
> one. Don't just look at the can, look also at the rest of the system. Is
> the steel of equal thickness and quality? Are the hangers exactly the same?
> Are the mounting flanges exactly the same? Are the welds of equal quality?
>
>> http://www.bosalna.com/index.php?mod=exhaust
>>
>> But,if you were going to buy a genuine Honda muffler, where
>> would you shop for the best price?
>
> Any Honda dealer. Nobody but a Honda dealer can sell Honda parts. Ask all
> the dealers in your area for their price.
>
>> If I have this done by a local shop (not the dealer), I'm
>> looking at $275 for a Honda muffler, installed.
>
> It won't be OEM Honda, but an aftermarket "OEM spec" muffler. "OEM spec"
> means they tried a (very) little bit harder to make it less crappy than
> their usual aftermarket .

For the vast majority of aftermarket exhaust parts, I agree with your
assessment. Many are poorly made and do not last nearly a long as OEM.
I also agree that OEM oil filters are usually worth the slight extra
cost, and I have never put an aftermarket filter on a Honda.

However, for our early 90's Hondas (a Civic and an Accord), I have seen
_no_ significant difference in lifetime between Bosal exhaust parts and
Honda parts. In fact, the original B pipe failed *under warranty* on
the Accord, then less than three years old, at 35,950 miles. (Enough
warranty miles left to make it home from work and then to the nearest
dealer with a few to go. Perfect timing!) This is on a car that makes
a minimum one-way trip of about 17 miles, too, not an around-town car
that never gets the exhaust hot enough to boil off the water when the
weather is cold.

The Bosal pipes, mufflers, and resonators are well made and have always
bolted up perfectly to both other Bosal pipes and Honda pipes. The only
significant difference I can see is that the OEM pipes have flanged
hangers (to help hold the rubber donuts on) and the Bosal pipes have
straight hangers bent at the end for retention instead (no, they do not
fall off).

Had I known the car would last this long, I'd have invested in a
stainless steel exhaust for the Accord long ago...

All that said, does the lifetime warranty apply to all new Honda exhaust
parts, including those for older cars? If so, I might reconsider using
Honda parts next time (though all the pipes are now under a year old, so
it will be some time before then).

--
JRE

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

JRE <nothing@nowhere.invalid> wrote in
news:hfs528$31b$1@news.eternal-september.org:


>
> All that said, does the lifetime warranty apply to all new Honda
> exhaust parts, including those for older cars?



Yes it does, provided you're replacing a replacment Honda part with another
replacment Honda part.

You also need your original bill of sale, or the dealer needs to be able to
find the previous repair in their system.



> If so, I might
> reconsider using Honda parts next time (though all the pipes are now
> under a year old, so it will be some time before then).
>


I, frankly, have had different experiences from you for aftermarket exhaust
parts. Maybe Bosal is better, I don't know. And frankly, I don't want to
risk it.

My exhaust was 100% OEM until a couple of years ago.

When my OEM cat rusted out a couple of years ago, I had to buy an
aftermarket one (a Walker) because new OEM is no longer available for my
car. During the repair, the shop discovered the A and B-pipes were also
rusted through, so they replaced them, without asking me, also with Walker
parts.

In the afternoon I came to pick the car up. I peeked undeneath before going
in to pay and saw the new B-pipe, which DID NOT FIT at all. The hanger
rubbers were all pulled well forwards and off to one side.
Plus the hangers and mounting flanges were hokey little things that were
nothing like the OEM fittings.

They ended up replacing the new Walker B-pipe with a new OEM B-pipe (no
extra charge to me), which DOES fit properly. The hangers are now straight.
The Walker A-pipe remains. It doesn't quite fit either, meaning that by the
time the assembly gets to the tailpipe, the tailpipes are slightly
misaligned in their bumper aperture, whereas before they were dead-center.

The Walker A-pipe is a piece of crap. When the (very weak) hanger flange
finally breaks off, a new OEM A-pipe is going in and I'll be down to the
cat as being the only aftermarket part in the system.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubberhangers?
 

JRE says...

> However, for our early 90's Hondas (a Civic and an
> Accord), I have seen _no_ significant difference in
> lifetime between Bosal exhaust parts and Honda parts.

JRE, did you do the installations yourself? I'm willing to
take a chance on the quality of the Bosal muffler
and install it myself (saving about $150 in the process),
but am just a bit goosey about being able to do the
installation with only the OEM jack to work with. The
hanger in front of the muffler looks like it might be
particularly difficult to get to.

Is the precedure to mount the muffler on the hangers first
and then do the gasket and flange bolts, or the other way
around?

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

"Peabody" <waybackNO746SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:009e22e8$0$26910$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> but am just a bit goosey about being able to do the
> installation with only the OEM jack to work with. The


Never get under the car using the OEM jack that it came with. That thing is
(barely) sufficient/safe for changing a flat (for which it was intended and
you don't get under the car). Getting under the car using that piece of
garbage is very dangerous.

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

Seth says...

>> but am just a bit goosey about being able to do the
>> installation with only the OEM jack to work with. The

> Never get under the car using the OEM jack that it came
> with. That thing is (barely) sufficient/safe for
> changing a flat (for which it was intended and you don't
> get under the car). Getting under the car using that
> piece of garbage is very dangerous.

Sorry, I didn't say that right. What I would do is jack up
the rear end one side at a time, and put concrete paving
stones under the tires, and lower the car onto them, with
the front wheels blocked. But I can probably only get six
inches or so of extra room doing it that way, not like being
able to work under a lift. Never having done this before, I
just don't know if that's enough room to work with.

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

Peabody <waybackNO746SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote in news:00d0cd1e$0$27955
$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

> Seth says...
>
> >> but am just a bit goosey about being able to do the
> >> installation with only the OEM jack to work with. The
>
> > Never get under the car using the OEM jack that it came
> > with. That thing is (barely) sufficient/safe for
> > changing a flat (for which it was intended and you don't
> > get under the car). Getting under the car using that
> > piece of garbage is very dangerous.
>
> Sorry, I didn't say that right. What I would do is jack up
> the rear end one side at a time, and put concrete paving
> stones under the tires,



Still a very bad idea.

There's a guy who posts in rec.autos.tech who's in the middle of restoring
an '80 Civic. He had the car up on concrete blocks. It fell off while he
was working on it. Good thing he wasn't under the car at the time.

Do the job properly, or don't do it at all. If you're not prepared to buy
and use the correct tools, don't do the job.




> and lower the car onto them, with
> the front wheels blocked. But I can probably only get six
> inches or so of extra room doing it that way, not like being
> able to work under a lift. Never having done this before, I
> just don't know if that's enough room to work with.



The more room the better. Six inches will have you gnashing your teeth in
frustration for lack of room.

And raising a car is best accomplished with a proper jack and stands.

If this is your first time, don't let it be your last as well.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

"Peabody" <waybackNO746SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:00d0cd1e$0$27955$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> Seth says...
>
> >> but am just a bit goosey about being able to do the
> >> installation with only the OEM jack to work with. The
>
> > Never get under the car using the OEM jack that it came
> > with. That thing is (barely) sufficient/safe for
> > changing a flat (for which it was intended and you don't
> > get under the car). Getting under the car using that
> > piece of garbage is very dangerous.
>
> Sorry, I didn't say that right. What I would do is jack up
> the rear end one side at a time, and put concrete paving
> stones under the tires, and lower the car onto them, with
> the front wheels blocked. But I can probably only get six
> inches or so of extra room doing it that way, not like being
> able to work under a lift. Never having done this before, I
> just don't know if that's enough room to work with.

Also never use concrete blocks. Not being rebar reinforced, they can crack.
Jack stands are cheap enough.

I doubt you'll get enough lift out of the scissor jack that the car comes
with. It's only designed to get the tires just enough off the ground to
change a tire.

Like Tegger says, either get the right stuff to do the work or don't do it
at all. If you're not going to be doing much more work to the car yourself,
it's probably cheaper to pay a shop to do the work than to buy all the right
equipment to do the job safely and correctly.

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubberhangers?
 

Peabody wrote:
> JRE says...
>
> > However, for our early 90's Hondas (a Civic and an
> > Accord), I have seen _no_ significant difference in
> > lifetime between Bosal exhaust parts and Honda parts.
>
> JRE, did you do the installations yourself? I'm willing to
> take a chance on the quality of the Bosal muffler
> and install it myself (saving about $150 in the process),
> but am just a bit goosey about being able to do the
> installation with only the OEM jack to work with. The
> hanger in front of the muffler looks like it might be
> particularly difficult to get to.

Yes. I pay for car repairs only when I don't think any new tools I
might need will ever pay me back. Alignments, tire-busting, machine
work, and recently a rear wheel bearing replacement on a BMW E46 (new
tools-$1,000!; repair-$300). Very little else, ever. If you buy decent
tools and don't lose them, it doesn't take too many jobs to build a set
that will serve for most jobs without having to acquire many (or any)
new tools.

You will find things much easier with a real floor jack. More
importantly, though, you need jack stands. They are not optional.
NEVER, EVER get under a car supported only by a jack. For years, there
was a newspaper article on my garage wall with the headline, "Car falls
off jack, killing town man" that I would point to when a friend thought
he should crawl under a car without setting jack stands. It was a real
convincer. Cars are heavy and you are fragile. If one falls on you,
you will be severely injured at best. Do NOT screw around here. The
$150 you save is not worth risking your life--and it's a sizable
fraction of the cost of a decent jack and pair of jack stands.

For exhaust system work, ramps are cheaper and just as safe. They are
somewhat easier to use as long as they slope gradually enough to avoid
catching the front bumper cover on them when you back off. However,
they can't be used to remove a wheel and are less versatile in general.

>
> Is the precedure to mount the muffler on the hangers first
> and then do the gasket and flange bolts, or the other way
> around?
>

You will avoid undue stress on the remaining flanges if you unbolt
things first, and then take off the hangars. Don't forget to get new
gaskets with the new pipe. Have spare nuts and bolts or studs on hand
in the right sizes. A propane (or better, acetylene) torch is a big
help for stubborn nuts. Frozen ones are easy to remove when red hot,
and if you have to drive out a stud it is much easier if the flange is
heated until it goes clear.

--
JRE

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubberhangers?
 

Tegger wrote:
> JRE <nothing@nowhere.invalid> wrote in
> news:hfs528$31b$1@news.eternal-september.org:
>
>> All that said, does the lifetime warranty apply to all new Honda
>> exhaust parts, including those for older cars?
>
> Yes it does, provided you're replacing a replacment Honda part with another
> replacment Honda part.
>
> You also need your original bill of sale, or the dealer needs to be able to
> find the previous repair in their system.

Cool! I'll definitely consider that if the car lives through its
current exhaust system.

<snip>

> I, frankly, have had different experiences from you for aftermarket exhaust
> parts. Maybe Bosal is better, I don't know. And frankly, I don't want to
> risk it.

Your choice. We can certainly agree that there is plenty of crap out
there, and that many, perhaps even most, aftermarket exhaust parts are
simply awful. Exhaust parts made of lighter-gauge tubing and sheet
steel, less-durable steel alloys, poor fit, etc., are almost epidemic.
Shopping purely on price is a mistake unless the car is unlikely to last
long for other reasons. There are only so many things a manufacturer
can do to take cost out of an exhaust system, and all of them are bad.

> My exhaust was 100% OEM until a couple of years ago.
>
> When my OEM cat rusted out a couple of years ago, I had to buy an
> aftermarket one (a Walker) because new OEM is no longer available for my
> car. During the repair, the shop discovered the A and B-pipes were also
> rusted through, so they replaced them, without asking me, also with Walker
> parts.

Funny! The only OEM part in my exhaust *is* the cat! But it won't last
through another A pipe and B pipe, as the flanges are nearly gone.
(Washers can be your friend, but there are limits. ;-)

> In the afternoon I came to pick the car up. I peeked undeneath before going
> in to pay and saw the new B-pipe, which DID NOT FIT at all. The hanger
> rubbers were all pulled well forwards and off to one side.
> Plus the hangers and mounting flanges were hokey little things that were
> nothing like the OEM fittings.
>
> They ended up replacing the new Walker B-pipe with a new OEM B-pipe (no
> extra charge to me), which DOES fit properly. The hangers are now straight.
> The Walker A-pipe remains. It doesn't quite fit either, meaning that by the
> time the assembly gets to the tailpipe, the tailpipes are slightly
> misaligned in their bumper aperture, whereas before they were dead-center.
>
> The Walker A-pipe is a piece of crap. When the (very weak) hanger flange
> finally breaks off, a new OEM A-pipe is going in and I'll be down to the
> cat as being the only aftermarket part in the system.

I stopped buying Walker exhaust parts a quarter century ago. I don't
recall why, exactly, but for Hondas the Bosal pipes work well for me and
last a comparable amount of time vs. Honda pipes.

--
JRE

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubberhangers?
 

On 12/11/2009 05:43 AM, Tegger wrote:
> JRE<nothing@nowhere.invalid> wrote in
> news:hfs528$31b$1@news.eternal-september.org:
>
>
>>
>> All that said, does the lifetime warranty apply to all new Honda
>> exhaust parts, including those for older cars?
>
>
>
> Yes it does, provided you're replacing a replacment Honda part with another
> replacment Honda part.
>
> You also need your original bill of sale, or the dealer needs to be able to
> find the previous repair in their system.
>
>
>
>> If so, I might
>> reconsider using Honda parts next time (though all the pipes are now
>> under a year old, so it will be some time before then).
>>
>
>
> I, frankly, have had different experiences from you for aftermarket exhaust
> parts. Maybe Bosal is better, I don't know. And frankly, I don't want to
> risk it.
>
> My exhaust was 100% OEM until a couple of years ago.
>
> When my OEM cat rusted out a couple of years ago, I had to buy an
> aftermarket one (a Walker) because new OEM is no longer available for my
> car. During the repair, the shop discovered the A and B-pipes were also
> rusted through, so they replaced them, without asking me, also with Walker
> parts.
>
> In the afternoon I came to pick the car up. I peeked undeneath before going
> in to pay and saw the new B-pipe, which DID NOT FIT at all. The hanger
> rubbers were all pulled well forwards and off to one side.
> Plus the hangers and mounting flanges were hokey little things that were
> nothing like the OEM fittings.
>
> They ended up replacing the new Walker B-pipe with a new OEM B-pipe (no
> extra charge to me), which DOES fit properly. The hangers are now straight.
> The Walker A-pipe remains. It doesn't quite fit either, meaning that by the
> time the assembly gets to the tailpipe, the tailpipes are slightly
> misaligned in their bumper aperture, whereas before they were dead-center.
>
> The Walker A-pipe is a piece of crap. When the (very weak) hanger flange
> finally breaks off, a new OEM A-pipe is going in and I'll be down to the
> cat as being the only aftermarket part in the system.
>
>

dude, on the one hand, you're casting pearls before swine. he wants to
use after-market, and clearly, nothing you say is going to convince him.
[here's the "unteachable" signal: he's prepared to fudge his numbers
to create "savings".]

otoh, he's pissing in the knowledge pool with this "just as good as oem"
bs, so it's good to point that out. just like you say, oem spec is
different and more stringent. there are some exceptions to this, but
for honda, exhaust systems is not one of them.

to anyone else reading, if you're driving detroit garbage, many times
after-market /is/ superior to oem - buy aftermarket and enjoy. but this
is not true for honda because honda oem standards are so high. honda
oem is guaranteed to work and be reliable. with anything else, you're
taking needless chances for trivial [if any] "savings", and if you don't
have all the facts about an after-market part available to you, you're
simply letting hope triumph over the logic and experience of others who
know what you don't.

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubberhangers?
 

On 12/11/2009 03:29 PM, JRE wrote:
> Peabody wrote:
>> JRE says...
>>
>> > However, for our early 90's Hondas (a Civic and an
>> > Accord), I have seen _no_ significant difference in
>> > lifetime between Bosal exhaust parts and Honda parts.
>>
>> JRE, did you do the installations yourself? I'm willing to
>> take a chance on the quality of the Bosal muffler
>> and install it myself (saving about $150 in the process),
>> but am just a bit goosey about being able to do the
>> installation with only the OEM jack to work with. The
>> hanger in front of the muffler looks like it might be
>> particularly difficult to get to.
>
> Yes. I pay for car repairs only when I don't think any new tools I might
> need will ever pay me back. Alignments, tire-busting, machine work, and
> recently a rear wheel bearing replacement on a BMW E46 (new
> tools-$1,000!; repair-$300). Very little else, ever. If you buy decent
> tools and don't lose them, it doesn't take too many jobs to build a set
> that will serve for most jobs without having to acquire many (or any)
> new tools.
>
> You will find things much easier with a real floor jack. More
> importantly, though, you need jack stands. They are not optional. NEVER,
> EVER get under a car supported only by a jack. For years, there was a
> newspaper article on my garage wall with the headline, "Car falls off
> jack, killing town man" that I would point to when a friend thought he
> should crawl under a car without setting jack stands. It was a real
> convincer. Cars are heavy and you are fragile. If one falls on you, you
> will be severely injured at best. Do NOT screw around here. The $150 you
> save is not worth risking your life--and it's a sizable fraction of the
> cost of a decent jack and pair of jack stands.

i second that story. my dad was working under a car like that, on a
sloping gravel drive one time. lucky for him i just happened to pull
into the drive way to see the car roll off the stand and fall on him.
it broke a bunch of ribs [ever heard ribs pop?] and he was out of action
for weeks. if i hadn't shown up when i did, he probably wouldn't be
alive because no one else was scheduled to be home for hours and he'd
have been pinned there unable to breathe.

ALWAYS use a proper jack, with stands, on hard level ground. and ALWAYS
chock the wheels.

>
> For exhaust system work, ramps are cheaper and just as safe. They are
> somewhat easier to use as long as they slope gradually enough to avoid
> catching the front bumper cover on them when you back off. However, they
> can't be used to remove a wheel and are less versatile in general.
>
>>
>> Is the precedure to mount the muffler on the hangers first
>> and then do the gasket and flange bolts, or the other way
>> around?
>>
>
> You will avoid undue stress on the remaining flanges if you unbolt
> things first, and then take off the hangars. Don't forget to get new
> gaskets with the new pipe. Have spare nuts and bolts or studs on hand in
> the right sizes. A propane (or better, acetylene) torch is a big help
> for stubborn nuts. Frozen ones are easy to remove when red hot, and if
> you have to drive out a stud it is much easier if the flange is heated
> until it goes clear.
>

heat works. however, there is risk of burning the underside of the car
unless you use a flame board. i've found impact drivers to be awesome
removing otherwise frozen rusted exhaust nuts in this situation.
absolutely awesome. no heat, no collateral damage, and otherwise
unshiftable nuts zip right off.

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubberhangers?
 

On 2009-12-11, Peabody <waybackNO746SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Seth says...
>
> >> but am just a bit goosey about being able to do the
> >> installation with only the OEM jack to work with. The
>
> > Never get under the car using the OEM jack that it came
> > with. That thing is (barely) sufficient/safe for
> > changing a flat (for which it was intended and you don't
> > get under the car). Getting under the car using that
> > piece of garbage is very dangerous.
>
> Sorry, I didn't say that right. What I would do is jack up
> the rear end one side at a time, and put concrete paving
> stones under the tires, and lower the car onto them, with
> the front wheels blocked. But I can probably only get six
> inches or so of extra room doing it that way, not like being
> able to work under a lift. Never having done this before, I
> just don't know if that's enough room to work with.
>

Not to be too critical, but proper jack stands are fairly cheap at any
auto parts store or harbor freight. They are a MUCH better idea than
concrete blocks.

And if you plan on doing work on your car more than just a couple of
times, it couldn't hurt to spend $100-$150 on a decent hydraulic floor
jack...


--
Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
joe at hits - buffalo dot com
"Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
time..." - Danny, American History X

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

"Tegger" <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in message
news:Xns9CDE58C5DB75Btegger@208.90.168.18...
> JRE <nothing@nowhere.invalid> wrote in
> news:hfs528$31b$1@news.eternal-september.org:
>
>
>>
>> All that said, does the lifetime warranty apply to all new Honda
>> exhaust parts, including those for older cars?
>
>
>
> Yes it does, provided you're replacing a replacment Honda part with
> another
> replacment Honda part.

Why don't they lifetime warranty the parts when the car is new if they
do so for OEM replacements?

>
> You also need your original bill of sale, or the dealer needs to be
> able to
> find the previous repair in their system.
>
>
>
>> If so, I might
>> reconsider using Honda parts next time (though all the pipes are
>> now
>> under a year old, so it will be some time before then).
>>
>
>
> I, frankly, have had different experiences from you for aftermarket
> exhaust
> parts. Maybe Bosal is better, I don't know. And frankly, I don't
> want to
> risk it.
>
> My exhaust was 100% OEM until a couple of years ago.
>
> When my OEM cat rusted out a couple of years ago, I had to buy an
> aftermarket one (a Walker) because new OEM is no longer available
> for my
> car. During the repair, the shop discovered the A and B-pipes were
> also
> rusted through, so they replaced them, without asking me, also with
> Walker
> parts.
>
> In the afternoon I came to pick the car up. I peeked undeneath
> before going
> in to pay and saw the new B-pipe, which DID NOT FIT at all. The
> hanger
> rubbers were all pulled well forwards and off to one side.
> Plus the hangers and mounting flanges were hokey little things that
> were
> nothing like the OEM fittings.
>
> They ended up replacing the new Walker B-pipe with a new OEM B-pipe
> (no
> extra charge to me), which DOES fit properly. The hangers are now
> straight.
> The Walker A-pipe remains. It doesn't quite fit either, meaning that
> by the
> time the assembly gets to the tailpipe, the tailpipes are slightly
> misaligned in their bumper aperture, whereas before they were
> dead-center.
>
> The Walker A-pipe is a piece of crap. When the (very weak) hanger
> flange
> finally breaks off, a new OEM A-pipe is going in and I'll be down to
> the
> cat as being the only aftermarket part in the system.
>
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubberhangers?
 

On 12/13/2009 06:06 PM, Stewart wrote:
> "Tegger"<invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in message
> news:Xns9CDE58C5DB75Btegger@208.90.168.18...
>> JRE<nothing@nowhere.invalid> wrote in
>> news:hfs528$31b$1@news.eternal-september.org:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> All that said, does the lifetime warranty apply to all new Honda
>>> exhaust parts, including those for older cars?
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes it does, provided you're replacing a replacment Honda part with
>> another
>> replacment Honda part.
>
> Why don't they lifetime warranty the parts when the car is new if they
> do so for OEM replacements?

er, dunno. why don' t they give the car an unconditional, unlimited
"forever" satisfaction "we'll refund you in full" guarantee? do you
think "money" might be involved?



>
>>
>> You also need your original bill of sale, or the dealer needs to be
>> able to
>> find the previous repair in their system.
>>
>>
>>
>>> If so, I might
>>> reconsider using Honda parts next time (though all the pipes are
>>> now
>>> under a year old, so it will be some time before then).
>>>
>>
>>
>> I, frankly, have had different experiences from you for aftermarket
>> exhaust
>> parts. Maybe Bosal is better, I don't know. And frankly, I don't
>> want to
>> risk it.
>>
>> My exhaust was 100% OEM until a couple of years ago.
>>
>> When my OEM cat rusted out a couple of years ago, I had to buy an
>> aftermarket one (a Walker) because new OEM is no longer available
>> for my
>> car. During the repair, the shop discovered the A and B-pipes were
>> also
>> rusted through, so they replaced them, without asking me, also with
>> Walker
>> parts.
>>
>> In the afternoon I came to pick the car up. I peeked undeneath
>> before going
>> in to pay and saw the new B-pipe, which DID NOT FIT at all. The
>> hanger
>> rubbers were all pulled well forwards and off to one side.
>> Plus the hangers and mounting flanges were hokey little things that
>> were
>> nothing like the OEM fittings.
>>
>> They ended up replacing the new Walker B-pipe with a new OEM B-pipe
>> (no
>> extra charge to me), which DOES fit properly. The hangers are now
>> straight.
>> The Walker A-pipe remains. It doesn't quite fit either, meaning that
>> by the
>> time the assembly gets to the tailpipe, the tailpipes are slightly
>> misaligned in their bumper aperture, whereas before they were
>> dead-center.
>>
>> The Walker A-pipe is a piece of crap. When the (very weak) hanger
>> flange
>> finally breaks off, a new OEM A-pipe is going in and I'll be down to
>> the
>> cat as being the only aftermarket part in the system.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Tegger
>>
>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>
>
>
>

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubberhangers?
 

jim beam wrote:
> On 12/13/2009 06:06 PM, Stewart wrote:
>> "Tegger"<invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in message
>> news:Xns9CDE58C5DB75Btegger@208.90.168.18...
>>> JRE<nothing@nowhere.invalid> wrote in
>>> news:hfs528$31b$1@news.eternal-september.org:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> All that said, does the lifetime warranty apply to all new Honda
>>>> exhaust parts, including those for older cars?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes it does, provided you're replacing a replacment Honda part with
>>> another
>>> replacment Honda part.
>>
>> Why don't they lifetime warranty the parts when the car is new if they
>> do so for OEM replacements?
>
> er, dunno. why don' t they give the car an unconditional, unlimited
> "forever" satisfaction "we'll refund you in full" guarantee? do you
> think "money" might be involved?
>
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> You also need your original bill of sale, or the dealer needs to be
>>> able to
>>> find the previous repair in their system.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> If so, I might
>>>> reconsider using Honda parts next time (though all the pipes are
>>>> now
>>>> under a year old, so it will be some time before then).
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I, frankly, have had different experiences from you for aftermarket
>>> exhaust
>>> parts. Maybe Bosal is better, I don't know. And frankly, I don't
>>> want to
>>> risk it.
>>>
>>> My exhaust was 100% OEM until a couple of years ago.
>>>
>>> When my OEM cat rusted out a couple of years ago, I had to buy an
>>> aftermarket one (a Walker) because new OEM is no longer available
>>> for my
>>> car. During the repair, the shop discovered the A and B-pipes were
>>> also
>>> rusted through, so they replaced them, without asking me, also with
>>> Walker
>>> parts.
>>>
>>> In the afternoon I came to pick the car up. I peeked undeneath
>>> before going
>>> in to pay and saw the new B-pipe, which DID NOT FIT at all. The
>>> hanger
>>> rubbers were all pulled well forwards and off to one side.
>>> Plus the hangers and mounting flanges were hokey little things that
>>> were
>>> nothing like the OEM fittings.
>>>
>>> They ended up replacing the new Walker B-pipe with a new OEM B-pipe
>>> (no
>>> extra charge to me), which DOES fit properly. The hangers are now
>>> straight.
>>> The Walker A-pipe remains. It doesn't quite fit either, meaning that
>>> by the
>>> time the assembly gets to the tailpipe, the tailpipes are slightly
>>> misaligned in their bumper aperture, whereas before they were
>>> dead-center.
>>>
>>> The Walker A-pipe is a piece of crap. When the (very weak) hanger
>>> flange
>>> finally breaks off, a new OEM A-pipe is going in and I'll be down to
>>> the
>>> cat as being the only aftermarket part in the system.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Tegger
>>>
>>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but when I got a Honda
Lifetime Warranty muffler for my old Civic Si, and then wore *it* out,
the free replacement was much cheaper and didn't have much of a warranty.

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

Leftie <No@Thanks.net> wrote in news:9PnVm.64638$X01.38059@newsfe07.iad:


>>
>
> I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but when I got a Honda
> Lifetime Warranty muffler for my old Civic Si, and then wore *it* out,
> the free replacement was much cheaper and didn't have much of a warranty.
>



Weird. I've had at least two "warranty" replacements of replacement OEM
Honda mufflers. Both of those were absolutely free to me, and the next one
will be as well.

Are you sure the replacement you got was actually OEM? Did it is have a
Honda part number? Don't put it past the dealership to try to sell you an
aftermarket one instead of OEM.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

Tegger says...

> Weird. I've had at least two "warranty" replacements of
> replacement OEM Honda mufflers. Both of those were
> absolutely free to me, and the next one will be as well.

Well, I've been unable to find a friend with a floor jack
and jack stands, so it looks like I'll be getting the
muffler replaced "professionally."

But I want to be sure I understand what the guarantee is on
a Honda muffler.

If I have the dealer do the work, the price I was quoted was
$364 plus tax, which is $219 for the muffler and $145 labor.
And at least verbally they confirmed that would be a full
lifetime warranty, parts and labor. I assume that would be
in writing at some point.

If I have the Four Star Honda/Accura local repair shop do
it, the price will be about $275 total. They confirmed
they will get a Honda muffler from the dealer, and they say
it's a lifetime warranty, but the guy I talked to said he
thought it was just the part, not labor. But he's going to
check on that. It makes sense, though, since you wouldn't
expect Honda to reimburse a local repair shop for labor.

But other scenarios arise if Four Star does this work.
Would a dealer honor at least the part warranty, so if I
move to another city I would at least have something to fall
back on? Is there a chance the dealer would cover labor on
the future replacement too even though a non-dealer did the
original installation?

It's just a shame I can't do this myself. I mean, it's two
bolts and three hangers. Just a real shame. Maybe I need
to advertise on Craiglist for a guy with jacks and jack
stands to help me.

Anyway, I appreciate everyone's advice and warnings about
working under the car safely. It just kills me another way
not to be able to do this myself.

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubberhangers?
 

Peabody wrote:

>
> It's just a shame I can't do this myself. I mean, it's two
> bolts and three hangers. Just a real shame. Maybe I need
> to advertise on Craiglist for a guy with jacks and jack
> stands to help me.
>
> Anyway, I appreciate everyone's advice and warnings about
> working under the car safely. It just kills me another way
> not to be able to do this myself.

You already have a jack; the one in your trunk. Find some bricks, 2x6
boards, etc. Now invest in some ramps for the front end. You'll get
your $ back, and then some instantly. Assuming you're paying someone to
change the oil, etc., the savings will continue forever.

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

Peabody <waybackNO746SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote in news:00a23678$0$17146
$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

> Tegger says...
>
> > Weird. I've had at least two "warranty" replacements of
> > replacement OEM Honda mufflers. Both of those were
> > absolutely free to me, and the next one will be as well.
>
> Well, I've been unable to find a friend with a floor jack
> and jack stands, so it looks like I'll be getting the
> muffler replaced "professionally."
>
> But I want to be sure I understand what the guarantee is on
> a Honda muffler.
>
> If I have the dealer do the work, the price I was quoted was
> $364 plus tax, which is $219 for the muffler and $145 labor.
> And at least verbally they confirmed that would be a full
> lifetime warranty, parts and labor. I assume that would be
> in writing at some point.



It should be on the invoice. In any case, it's SOP for any dealership,
so you shouldn't have a problem

IMPORTANT!
Keep that invoice in the glove box or some other safe place and save
your self a fight in four to seven years.
If you're not a regular at the dealership, you'll likely fall off their
easily-accessible customer list after a few years and they'll have
trouble finding the record of installation if you don't have the
invoice.



>
> If I have the Four Star Honda/Accura local repair shop do
> it, the price will be about $275 total. They confirmed
> they will get a Honda muffler from the dealer, and they say
> it's a lifetime warranty, but the guy I talked to said he
> thought it was just the part, not labor. But he's going to
> check on that. It makes sense, though, since you wouldn't
> expect Honda to reimburse a local repair shop for labor.
>
> But other scenarios arise if Four Star does this work.
> Would a dealer honor at least the part warranty, so if I
> move to another city I would at least have something to fall
> back on? Is there a chance the dealer would cover labor on
> the future replacement too even though a non-dealer did the
> original installation?



That's a **VERY** good question. I don't know if the repair is dealer-
specific or general to any repair shop.

You had better make sure you get this clarified at the dealership,
preferably in writing.

But when you consider the amortization of that extra $89 over four years
(that's a bare-minimum), that's $1.85 a month, or $22 per year. If you
get seven years out of the muffler, then the added cost falls to $1.05
per month, or $12 per year.

If it were me, I'd bite the bullet and get the dealer to do it. It's
safest that way, and you'll end up with OEM fasteners and gasket.



>
> It's just a shame I can't do this myself. I mean, it's two
> bolts and three hangers. Just a real shame. Maybe I need
> to advertise on Craiglist for a guy with jacks and jack
> stands to help me.



It's like anything else. If you have to tools you can do the job. If you
don't, you can't. Or it's a LOT harder. A kitchen cabinet is just a few
flat pieces of wood and a few screws, right?



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

Greg <nospam@null.net> wrote in news:6gwVm.43068$kY2.22438@newsfe01.iad:


>
> You already have a jack; the one in your trunk. Find some bricks, 2x6
> boards, etc. Now invest in some ramps for the front end. You'll get
> your $ back, and then some instantly. Assuming you're paying someone to
> change the oil, etc., the savings will continue forever.



This advice is so astonishingly bad I'm left wondering if "Greg" is a
troll.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubberhangers?
 

Peabody wrote:
> Tegger says...
>
> > Weird. I've had at least two "warranty" replacements of
> > replacement OEM Honda mufflers. Both of those were
> > absolutely free to me, and the next one will be as well.
>
> Well, I've been unable to find a friend with a floor jack
> and jack stands, so it looks like I'll be getting the
> muffler replaced "professionally."

First, rest assured that you made the right decision. You can always
make more money to pay for repairs when you're alive and well.

<snip>
>
> It's just a shame I can't do this myself. I mean, it's two
> bolts and three hangers. Just a real shame. Maybe I need
> to advertise on Craiglist for a guy with jacks and jack
> stands to help me.

Where do you live? The BMWCCA hooks up members with each other for
stuff like this. Maybe there's a Honda equivalent.

> Anyway, I appreciate everyone's advice and warnings about
> working under the car safely. It just kills me another way
> not to be able to do this myself.

I understand completely. I felt the same way last week when I actually
paid for a car repair, but the tools required would probably never pay
me back and the repair was far cheaper than the tools (25-30% of the
cost of the tools, in fact).

--
JRE

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

JRE <nothing@nowhere.invalid> wrote in news:hg6p62$ac2$1@news.eternal-
september.org:


>
> I understand completely. I felt the same way last week when I actually
> paid for a car repair, but the tools required would probably never pay
> me back and the repair was far cheaper than the tools (25-30% of the
> cost of the tools, in fact).
>


I think it depends on how dedicated you are to the idea of doing your own
repairs.

I see my tool purchases as investments for the future. The amount of money
I save in doing my own work means I have lots of cash available to allocate
towards new tools.

Plus -- and I must be crazy -- I actually LIKE working on my car, even when
what I'm doing is something scarily new to me and which at first appears to
go horribly wrong until I eventually figure it out, after which there's an
elation that beats chemical intoxication...

If you don't see yourself doing lots of your own work past, say, light bulb
changes, just get the pro's to fix your car. Nothing wrong with that at
all. I don't do my own roofing or windows; I pay pro's to do that.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing withrubber hangers?
 

On 12/14/09 1:22 PM, in article 6gwVm.43068$kY2.22438@newsfe01.iad, "Greg"
<nospam@null.net> wrote:

> Peabody wrote:
>
>>
>> It's just a shame I can't do this myself. I mean, it's two
>> bolts and three hangers. Just a real shame. Maybe I need
>> to advertise on Craiglist for a guy with jacks and jack
>> stands to help me.
>>
>> Anyway, I appreciate everyone's advice and warnings about
>> working under the car safely. It just kills me another way
>> not to be able to do this myself.
>
> You already have a jack; the one in your trunk. Find some bricks, 2x6
> boards, etc. Now invest in some ramps for the front end. You'll get
> your $ back, and then some instantly. Assuming you're paying someone to
> change the oil, etc., the savings will continue forever.

Well, those first two sentences are just plain scary. The ramps are a
useful idea though.

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubberhangers?
 

Tegger wrote:
> JRE <nothing@nowhere.invalid> wrote in news:hg6p62$ac2$1@news.eternal-
> september.org:
>
>
>> I understand completely. I felt the same way last week when I actually
>> paid for a car repair, but the tools required would probably never pay
>> me back and the repair was far cheaper than the tools (25-30% of the
>> cost of the tools, in fact).
>>
> I think it depends on how dedicated you are to the idea of doing your own
> repairs.
>
> I see my tool purchases as investments for the future. The amount of money
> I save in doing my own work means I have lots of cash available to allocate
> towards new tools.

I have always done this on a dollar basis. My payback period on tools
used to be 10 years. Lately, I've been oscillating between 5 and 10
years. The repair I just paid for was the first non-warranty mechanical
repair I did not do myself in a very, very long time. My guess, though
it's impossible to predict, is that the tools would not have paid me
back in well over 10 years. I'm fast approaching the age where the
window of utility is getting perceptibly shorter, and a 20-year payback
probably makes little sense. And I didn't know anyone I could borrow
them from, either.

Do you own a tire machine and spin balancer? A full-size hydraulic
lift? A 4-wheel alignment rack? A valve refacer? A cylinder head
resurfacer? A crankshaft grinder? A frame machine? A paint booth for
clearcoat? Outside the businesses that can afford them, I suspect not,
and I further suspect we're talking about *where* we each choose to draw
the line, not *whether* we choose to draw the line. Were I a
billionaire, I'd have a really cool garage, just for fun, but...

> Plus -- and I must be crazy -- I actually LIKE working on my car, even when
> what I'm doing is something scarily new to me and which at first appears to
> go horribly wrong until I eventually figure it out, after which there's an
> elation that beats chemical intoxication...

Yup. Same here.

>
> If you don't see yourself doing lots of your own work past, say, light bulb
> changes, just get the pro's to fix your car. Nothing wrong with that at
> all. I don't do my own roofing or windows; I pay pro's to do that.

Oddly enough, I do my own roofing and most interior renovation work, but
draw the line at windows. Not because I can't, but because I don't want to.

--
JRE

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

"Leftie" <No@Thanks.net> wrote in message
news:9PnVm.64638$X01.38059@newsfe07.iad...
> jim beam wrote:
>> On 12/13/2009 06:06 PM, Stewart wrote:
>>> "Tegger"<invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in message
>>> news:Xns9CDE58C5DB75Btegger@208.90.168.18...
>>>> JRE<nothing@nowhere.invalid> wrote in
>>>> news:hfs528$31b$1@news.eternal-september.org:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> All that said, does the lifetime warranty apply to all new Honda
>>>>> exhaust parts, including those for older cars?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes it does, provided you're replacing a replacment Honda part
>>>> with
>>>> another
>>>> replacment Honda part.
>>>
>>> Why don't they lifetime warranty the parts when the car is new if
>>> they
>>> do so for OEM replacements?
>>
>> er, dunno. why don' t they give the car an unconditional,
>> unlimited "forever" satisfaction "we'll refund you in full"
>> guarantee? do you think "money" might be involved?

If the idea of buying OEM is to get the same thing one gets with the
original equipment, it only stands to reason that the warranty for the
the original equipment be the same as the OEM replacement parts.

>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> You also need your original bill of sale, or the dealer needs to
>>>> be
>>>> able to
>>>> find the previous repair in their system.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If so, I might
>>>>> reconsider using Honda parts next time (though all the pipes are
>>>>> now
>>>>> under a year old, so it will be some time before then).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I, frankly, have had different experiences from you for
>>>> aftermarket
>>>> exhaust
>>>> parts. Maybe Bosal is better, I don't know. And frankly, I don't
>>>> want to
>>>> risk it.
>>>>
>>>> My exhaust was 100% OEM until a couple of years ago.
>>>>
>>>> When my OEM cat rusted out a couple of years ago, I had to buy an
>>>> aftermarket one (a Walker) because new OEM is no longer available
>>>> for my
>>>> car. During the repair, the shop discovered the A and B-pipes
>>>> were
>>>> also
>>>> rusted through, so they replaced them, without asking me, also
>>>> with
>>>> Walker
>>>> parts.
>>>>
>>>> In the afternoon I came to pick the car up. I peeked undeneath
>>>> before going
>>>> in to pay and saw the new B-pipe, which DID NOT FIT at all. The
>>>> hanger
>>>> rubbers were all pulled well forwards and off to one side.
>>>> Plus the hangers and mounting flanges were hokey little things
>>>> that
>>>> were
>>>> nothing like the OEM fittings.
>>>>
>>>> They ended up replacing the new Walker B-pipe with a new OEM
>>>> B-pipe
>>>> (no
>>>> extra charge to me), which DOES fit properly. The hangers are now
>>>> straight.
>>>> The Walker A-pipe remains. It doesn't quite fit either, meaning
>>>> that
>>>> by the
>>>> time the assembly gets to the tailpipe, the tailpipes are
>>>> slightly
>>>> misaligned in their bumper aperture, whereas before they were
>>>> dead-center.
>>>>
>>>> The Walker A-pipe is a piece of crap. When the (very weak) hanger
>>>> flange
>>>> finally breaks off, a new OEM A-pipe is going in and I'll be down
>>>> to
>>>> the
>>>> cat as being the only aftermarket part in the system.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Tegger
>>>>
>>>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but when I got a Honda
> Lifetime Warranty muffler for my old Civic Si, and then wore *it*
> out, the free replacement was much cheaper and didn't have much of a
> warranty.

In effect, the warranty is somewhat limited.

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubberhangers?
 

On 2009-12-14, Peabody <waybackNO746SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Tegger says...
>
> > Weird. I've had at least two "warranty" replacements of
> > replacement OEM Honda mufflers. Both of those were
> > absolutely free to me, and the next one will be as well.
>
> Well, I've been unable to find a friend with a floor jack
> and jack stands, so it looks like I'll be getting the
> muffler replaced "professionally."

Why not just buy them? They don't take much space, and they cost less
than the labor is going to cost you for this job. Once you have them,
you have them forever.

--
Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
joe at hits - buffalo dot com
"Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
time..." - Danny, American History X

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

"JRE" <nothing@nowhere.invalid> wrote in message
news:hg6tik$bs6$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> Tegger wrote:
>> JRE <nothing@nowhere.invalid> wrote in
>> news:hg6p62$ac2$1@news.eternal-
>> september.org:
>>
>>
>>> I understand completely. I felt the same way last week when I
>>> actually paid for a car repair, but the tools required would
>>> probably never pay me back and the repair was far cheaper than the
>>> tools (25-30% of the cost of the tools, in fact).
>>>
>> I think it depends on how dedicated you are to the idea of doing
>> your own repairs.
>>
>> I see my tool purchases as investments for the future. The amount
>> of money I save in doing my own work means I have lots of cash
>> available to allocate towards new tools.
>
> I have always done this on a dollar basis. My payback period on
> tools used to be 10 years. Lately, I've been oscillating between 5
> and 10 years. The repair I just paid for was the first non-warranty
> mechanical repair I did not do myself in a very, very long time. My
> guess, though it's impossible to predict, is that the tools would
> not have paid me back in well over 10 years. I'm fast approaching
> the age where the window of utility is getting perceptibly shorter,
> and a 20-year payback probably makes little sense. And I didn't
> know anyone I could borrow them from, either.
>
> Do you own a tire machine and spin balancer? A full-size hydraulic
> lift? A 4-wheel alignment rack? A valve refacer? A cylinder head
> resurfacer? A crankshaft grinder? A frame machine? A paint booth
> for clearcoat? Outside the businesses that can afford them, I
> suspect not, and I further suspect we're talking about *where* we
> each choose to draw the line, not *whether* we choose to draw the
> line. Were I a billionaire, I'd have a really cool garage, just for
> fun, but...
>
>> Plus -- and I must be crazy -- I actually LIKE working on my car,
>> even when what I'm doing is something scarily new to me and which
>> at first appears to go horribly wrong until I eventually figure it
>> out, after which there's an elation that beats chemical
>> intoxication...
>
> Yup. Same here.
>
>>
>> If you don't see yourself doing lots of your own work past, say,
>> light bulb changes, just get the pro's to fix your car. Nothing
>> wrong with that at all. I don't do my own roofing or windows; I pay
>> pro's to do that.
>
> Oddly enough, I do my own roofing and most interior renovation work,
> but draw the line at windows. Not because I can't, but because I
> don't want to.
>
> --
> JRE

Tis always good to be in a position to chose one's battles. I
remodeled our kitchen with the paid help of a friend/contractor that
included a full demolition, redesign and about 700 sq feet of tile
(front entry and bar area included, boy that old parquet floor was
tough to pull up). We filled a 40 yard dumpster....and it took about
3 weeks.

After that, I ended up having the kid down the street cut the lawn for
the rest of the summer (let him use my tractor, a couple of acres) and
I taught him how to do routine maintenance on cars for me. He learned
something, made a few bucks and I got a rest!

I just didn't feel like doing it myself.

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubberhangers?
 

Tegger wrote:
> Leftie <No@Thanks.net> wrote in news:9PnVm.64638$X01.38059@newsfe07.iad:
>
>
>> I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but when I got a Honda
>> Lifetime Warranty muffler for my old Civic Si, and then wore *it* out,
>> the free replacement was much cheaper and didn't have much of a warranty.
>>
>
>
>
> Weird. I've had at least two "warranty" replacements of replacement OEM
> Honda mufflers. Both of those were absolutely free to me, and the next one
> will be as well.
>
> Are you sure the replacement you got was actually OEM? Did it is have a
> Honda part number? Don't put it past the dealership to try to sell you an
> aftermarket one instead of OEM.
>

The first replacement (the one I paid for) was OEM. The second one
had no chromed tips on the exhaust outlets, looked cheaper, and didn't
last as long. There was no lifetime warranty with that one and it only
lasted a few years. Maybe the dealer ripped me off. This was circa 1990.

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubberhangers?
 

Tegger wrote:
> Greg <nospam@null.net> wrote in news:6gwVm.43068$kY2.22438@newsfe01.iad:
>
>
>> You already have a jack; the one in your trunk. Find some bricks, 2x6
>> boards, etc. Now invest in some ramps for the front end. You'll get
>> your $ back, and then some instantly. Assuming you're paying someone to
>> change the oil, etc., the savings will continue forever.
>
>
>
> This advice is so astonishingly bad I'm left wondering if "Greg" is a
> troll.

BREATHE!!

Ah.....

Now, please put away the torches and pitchforks!

I'm not suggesting he try to build some crazy shelf-like structure to
support the car! The idea is to drive the front of the car up onto the
ramps, then sequentially jack the rear corners, letting each rear tire
down on a sandwich of FLATLY STACKED boards, or possibly large, flat,
solid bricks.

I must admit that the frangible nature of the brick makes me a little
nervous. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned that particular material.
OTOH, I might choose the bricks-of-death over some of the China-Mart
jackstands I've seen...

I also brain farted on the board size. I don't know where the hell '6'
came from. A tall stack 6 inches wide isn't such a hot idea! A pile of
4~5 2x12s would be much better.

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

JRE <nothing@nowhere.invalid> wrote in
news:hg6tik$bs6$1@news.eternal-september.org:


>
> Do you own a tire machine and spin balancer? A full-size hydraulic
> lift? A 4-wheel alignment rack? A valve refacer? A cylinder head
> resurfacer? A crankshaft grinder? A frame machine? A paint booth
> for clearcoat? Outside the businesses that can afford them, I suspect
> not, and I further suspect we're talking about *where* we each choose
> to draw the line, not *whether* we choose to draw the line.



Well, yeah. That's the point I thought I was making.

Which is why I ultimately said, "If you don't see yourself doing lots of
your own work past, say, light bulb changes, just get the pro's to fix
your car. Nothing wrong with that at all. I don't do my own roofing or
windows; I pay pro's to do that."


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

Ok, the plot thickens a bit.

There's a local guy who posted on Craigslist as a Honda mechanic,
with dealership experience. I contacted him, and he offered to do
the installation for $60 if I ran into trouble, assuming I already
had the parts.

And I've been spraying the bolts with PB Blaster daily, and will see
if I can loosen the nuts sometime in the next day or two. They
don't look rusted up at all. The car is a 94, but only has 63K
miles on it, so I think there's at least a chance I won't have to
cut the bolts.

Anyway, with the backstop of the local mechanic, I think I will go
ahead and order the Bosal muffler and gasket from RockAuto, and a
new hardware set if I can't get the bolts loose. I understand it's
not a Honda muffler, but I think there's a reasonable chance it's a
pretty good muffler and will last long enough.

I've been scoping out the situation pretty carefully, and it appears
in terms of physically moving the old muffler out and the new one
in, it isn't absolutely necessary to jack the car up at all. And
the bolts and rear hangers are reasonably accessible. The front
hanger - not so much, but at least I can reach it.

Not having done this before, it looks like the plan would be to
remove the bolts first, and break the connection at the gasket.
Then that would let me move the whole assembly around a bit to get
the hangers off. Then installing the new muffler would be the
reverse, probably hooking up the front hanger first, then the
rear hangers, and the gasket and bolts last.

Well, I'm sure it will be more difficult than it looks, but I think
I can get it done. But if not, I can bail out and get the mechanic
to do it.

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubberhangers?
 

jim beam wrote:

> otoh, he's pissing in the knowledge pool with this "just as good as oem"
> bs, so it's good to point that out. just like you say, oem spec is
> different and more stringent. there are some exceptions to this, but
> for honda, exhaust systems is not one of them.
>
> to anyone else reading, if you're driving detroit garbage, many times
> after-market /is/ superior to oem - buy aftermarket and enjoy. but this
> is not true for honda because honda oem standards are so high. honda
> oem is guaranteed to work and be reliable. with anything else, you're
> taking needless chances for trivial [if any] "savings", and if you don't
> have all the facts about an after-market part available to you, you're
> simply letting hope triumph over the logic and experience of others who
> know what you don't.

The 1995 Accord that I now own has 78,000 miles, and the muffler was
replaced about 5 years ago with an aftermarket unit that works great, so
far anyway.

That OEM Honda muffler was not anything special.
It went through very hard use on a lot of short mileage trips, and then
failed at about 10 years and only about 45k to 55K miles of use.

I have had stainless aftermarket exhausts on 3 different cars over the
past 24 years, including my current '91 turbo Miata, that were all
better and longer-lasting than what came on the Accord. Not equal to
Honda OEM, superior.

Sorry if I am pissing in the knowledge pool, but this is my personal
experience.

Pat

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubberhangers?
 

On 12/15/2009 09:08 PM, pws wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>> otoh, he's pissing in the knowledge pool with this "just as good as
>> oem" bs, so it's good to point that out. just like you say, oem spec
>> is different and more stringent. there are some exceptions to this,
>> but for honda, exhaust systems is not one of them.
>>
>> to anyone else reading, if you're driving detroit garbage, many times
>> after-market /is/ superior to oem - buy aftermarket and enjoy. but
>> this is not true for honda because honda oem standards are so high.
>> honda oem is guaranteed to work and be reliable. with anything else,
>> you're taking needless chances for trivial [if any] "savings", and if
>> you don't have all the facts about an after-market part available to
>> you, you're simply letting hope triumph over the logic and experience
>> of others who know what you don't.
>
> The 1995 Accord that I now own has 78,000 miles, and the muffler was
> replaced about 5 years ago with an aftermarket unit that works great, so
> far anyway.
>
> That OEM Honda muffler was not anything special.
> It went through very hard use on a lot of short mileage trips, and then
> failed at about 10 years and only about 45k to 55K miles of use.
>
> I have had stainless aftermarket exhausts on 3 different cars over the
> past 24 years, including my current '91 turbo Miata, that were all
> better and longer-lasting than what came on the Accord. Not equal to
> Honda OEM, superior.
>
> Sorry if I am pissing in the knowledge pool, but this is my personal
> experience.
>
> Pat
>
>
>


er, dare i point out that when you talk of replacement with bosal,
you're NOT talking about replacement with several hundred dollars of
stainless? or am i not supposed to call "bullshit" and simply play along?

bottom line, it's your car dude - you go ahead and do whatever you want.
but you're fudging the facts, and misrepresenting them here. that
makes you look like an ass.

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubberhangers?
 

jim beam wrote:

> er, dare i point out that when you talk of replacement with bosal,
> you're NOT talking about replacement with several hundred dollars of
> stainless? or am i not supposed to call "bullshit" and simply play along?
>
> bottom line, it's your car dude - you go ahead and do whatever you want.
> but you're fudging the facts, and misrepresenting them here. that
> makes you look like an ass.

The muffler on my Accord is not stainless.

My experience has been that a Honda muffler, at least one from 1995, is
not this super high-quality piece of equipment compared to what I
replaced it with.

I have read a number of your posts, Mr. Jim Beam, and you are truly a
master of presenting yourself as an ass, so there is a bit of the pot
calling the kettle black here.

Have a nice day, and good luck finding someone else to fight with
online. Don't hit those keys too hard now.

Pat