AGS

Hey,

Anyone know what could cause an air intake to sound louder than necessary?

I currently drive a 2000 Honda Civic EX and installed an aftermarket
intake (short ram) almost 2 years ago and everything sounded fine with it.

About two weeks ago I decide to replace the timing belt, etc., since the
car had 92,000mi on it. While working on the car, I had to remove the
spark plugs and wires and noticed the plugs were kinda worn down. So I
decided to regap them (mistake?). Reinstalled everything, turned the car
on and the engine ran fine...althougth the RPMs were running kinda low at
first but went back to normal the second time I ran the car.

Anyway...as I was driving/accelerating the car, I noticed the intake was
louder...like it was sucking in more air than usual. I examined the
intake and there wasn't anything lose. I never even touched it during the
timing belt work.

So i'm curious as to why it would sound louder. Would regapping the plugs
incorrectly cause something like this? Perhaps the timing of the engine
is slightly off? Although I always thought if the timing was off, the
engine would just go off after a loud *bang*.

-AGS

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Eric

AGS wrote:
>
> Hey,
>
> Anyone know what could cause an air intake to sound louder than necessary?
>
> I currently drive a 2000 Honda Civic EX and installed an aftermarket
> intake (short ram) almost 2 years ago and everything sounded fine with it.
>
> About two weeks ago I decide to replace the timing belt, etc., since the
> car had 92,000mi on it. While working on the car, I had to remove the
> spark plugs and wires and noticed the plugs were kinda worn down. So I
> decided to regap them (mistake?). Reinstalled everything, turned the car
> on and the engine ran fine...althougth the RPMs were running kinda low at
> first but went back to normal the second time I ran the car.
>
> Anyway...as I was driving/accelerating the car, I noticed the intake was
> louder...like it was sucking in more air than usual. I examined the
> intake and there wasn't anything lose. I never even touched it during the
> timing belt work.
>
> So i'm curious as to why it would sound louder. Would regapping the plugs
> incorrectly cause something like this? Perhaps the timing of the engine
> is slightly off? Although I always thought if the timing was off, the
> engine would just go off after a loud *bang*.
>

I can't answer your questions regarding the short air intake. However, did
you double check the mechanical timing after replacing the belt? I usually
turn the engine over by hand one or two revolutions after tensioning the
belt and then recheck the timing. Did you check the ignition timing with a
timing light after you were done? Did you need to adjust the distributor?

Eric

AGS

Thanks for the response/help.

I did check the mechanical timing the first time around. Yeah, there was
a second time. Problems with the crankshaft seal caused the car to POUR
oil onto the ground when I started it up. Took everything apart again,
fixed the seal and threw everything back together. Didn't check the
timing as I believed I didn't move either the camshaft or crankshaft.
Although, as I stand, I could be mistaken.

If the ignition timing is off, would that also mean the mechanical timing
of the engine (pistons/values) is off, thus meaning, there would be more
problems with the car?

Just to get it out of the way, gonna buy some new plugs (since they should
be replaced anyway) and some new wires to see if anything changes. If
not, i'll see where I can find the equipment to check the ignition timing.

BTW, if anyone else is planning to change their timing belt on a 2000
Honda Civic EX, there are several minor mistakes in the Haynes repair
manual.

1) You can not remove the A/C belt as easily as it sounds. I believe
you'll need to remove an engine mount in order to get it off.
Specifically, the lower driver side mount. This mount is in addition to
the upper driver side mount you'll need to remove to gain access to the
timing belt cover. I haven't removed the A/C belt yet as I had enough car
work that weekend.

2) Speaking of timing belt cover, you can't remove it as easily as the
manual says, as well. The upper timing belt cover is sitting under the
valve cover. I was unable to remove it just buy removing the few bolts.
Had to loosen the valve cover bolts and pry the valve cover up oh so
lightly (so not to damage the seal & cover) to get the upper timing belt
cover out.

-AGS

PS: If anyone has any hints as to how to put the alternator back to its
original position, let me know. I can't seem to push back to its original
position. Granted its a new belt, but I should be able to move it a
little more to add some more tension on the belt. Thanks!



On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:13:17 -0700, Eric <say.no@spam.now> wrote:

> I can't answer your questions regarding the short air intake. However,
> did
> you double check the mechanical timing after replacing the belt? I
> usually
> turn the engine over by hand one or two revolutions after tensioning the
> belt and then recheck the timing. Did you check the ignition timing
> with a
> timing light after you were done? Did you need to adjust the
> distributor?
>
> Eric



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Eric

AGS wrote:
>
> Thanks for the response/help.
>
> I did check the mechanical timing the first time around. Yeah, there was
> a second time. Problems with the crankshaft seal caused the car to POUR
> oil onto the ground when I started it up. Took everything apart again,
> fixed the seal and threw everything back together. Didn't check the
> timing as I believed I didn't move either the camshaft or crankshaft.
> Although, as I stand, I could be mistaken.

Always check the timing. Always. It's easy to get the belt off by a
tooth. The car will still run but it will change the engine's vacuum. This
scenario could explain the initial rough running you experienced. The fact
that it smoothed out later could be due to the computer compensating for the
changed condition. Of course, there could be other explanations such as a
vacuum hose that was accidentally knocked loose.

> If the ignition timing is off, would that also mean the mechanical timing
> of the engine (pistons/values) is off, thus meaning, there would be more
> problems with the car?

Yes, if the car was in reasonably good shape before you did the timing belt
the ignition timing should not have changed. Checking the ignition timing
is a way to double check your work.

> Just to get it out of the way, gonna buy some new plugs (since they should
> be replaced anyway) and some new wires to see if anything changes. If
> not, i'll see where I can find the equipment to check the ignition timing.

The Honda OE spark plug wires should be good for 100-120K miles. Save your
money unless you really need them. If you do, then NGK's wires work fine.
I would stay away from less expensive brands, they'll cause more problems
than their worth.

Eric

disallow

I have a 98 Civic LX with AC.

The A/C belt is a bitch. It actually goes around that engine
mount, so yes, you would need to remove the engine mount to
get the belt off. However, in my Haynes manual, it tells me
that. Do you have a different version?

The one area that the Haynes manual is wrong is in regards
to the alternator removal. It tells you that you have to pull the
driveshaft
in order to remove the alternator. BULLSHIT. You
just need to remove the alternator bracket from the engine block,
that leaves tonnes of room to get the alternator out.

As far as tensioning the alternator, it is possible to get
good leverage on the alternator with a long prybar or
screwdriver from the top. I did this with 2 people, one
reefin on the prybar up top, and me underneath to tighten
the adjustment nut.

t

AGS

Ok, i'm convinced...the timing must be off.

I haven't checked it yet but after speaking to a couple different people
today and reading your post, everyone is saying the same thing. I also
asked if i'm causing any damage to the engine by driving it everyday and
they told me that based off the symptoms I had/have, most likely not.
This is good news to me because my hands are tied for the next couple
weeks. Won't be able to do any work till after.

But here is a question: Would it be necessary for me to make the timing
adjustments at the timing belt level or can I do as the Haynes repair
manual suggests for Ignition Timing adjustment? And I quote, "If an
adjustment is required, loosen the three mounting bolts and rotate the
distributor slightly until the timing is correct. Tighten the mounting
bolts and recheck the timing. Also recheck idle speed to make sure it
hasn't changed."

I kinda like the later option (less work)...but it doesn't make sense to
me. If I turn the distributor, wouldn't I also be turning the crankshaft,
thus, not solving the timing problem? Or does the distributor have the
ability to turn by itself?

Sorry for all the little questions...i'm not a pro.

-AGS

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 01:18:03 -0700, Eric <say.no@spam.now> wrote:

> Always check the timing. Always. It's easy to get the belt off by a
> tooth. The car will still run but it will change the engine's vacuum.
> This
> scenario could explain the initial rough running you experienced. The
> fact
> that it smoothed out later could be due to the computer compensating for
> the
> changed condition. Of course, there could be other explanations such as
> a
> vacuum hose that was accidentally knocked loose.
>
> Eric



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disallow

If its off by a tooth, then you need to fix the belt.

If the teeth are OK, then you can retard or advance the
timing while using a timing light and jigging the jumpers to
turn off the computer advance.

t

AGS

My Haynes Repair Manual is for Honda Civic's (1996-2000), CR-V's
(1997-2000) and Acura Integra's (1994-2000). Geez, can we sqeeze any more
models in there, like maybe an Accord and a Prelude.

The only thing my manual says for A/C belt removal is, "To replace a belt,
follow the above procedures for drivebelt adjustment but slip the belt off
the crankshaft pulley and remove it." For adjustment, "...loosen the
idler pulley bolt, then turn the adjusting bolt to loosen or tighten the
belt." Nothing about removing an engine mount!

Yeah, I read the procedure of alternator removal before and thought, "Why
remove the driveaxle? There seems to be plenty of room to do it
otherwise." Sweet...now I know I don't have touch the driveaxle when my
alternator goes bad.

I did use a large screwdriver to pry the alternator back, but it only went
back so far. Then I tried to use a long metal bar I had laying around but
couldn't get it into the engine...the hood got in the way, LOL. Oh
well...I wouldn't say the belt is gonna come off anytime soon but I like
to be better safe than sorry. When I get around to changing the A/C belt
later this summer, i'll try again to push the alternator back some more.

Thanks for the response.

-AGS

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 11:51:48 -0400, disallow <loewen_t@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> I have a 98 Civic LX with AC.
>
> The A/C belt is a bitch. It actually goes around that engine
> mount, so yes, you would need to remove the engine mount to
> get the belt off. However, in my Haynes manual, it tells me
> that. Do you have a different version?
>
> The one area that the Haynes manual is wrong is in regards
> to the alternator removal. It tells you that you have to pull the
> driveshaft
> in order to remove the alternator. BULLSHIT. You
> just need to remove the alternator bracket from the engine block,
> that leaves tonnes of room to get the alternator out.
>
> As far as tensioning the alternator, it is possible to get
> good leverage on the alternator with a long prybar or
> screwdriver from the top. I did this with 2 people, one
> reefin on the prybar up top, and me underneath to tighten
> the adjustment nut.
>
> t
>



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Jim Yanik

AGS <ags0082@no.spam.yahoo.com> wrote in
newspr9514iapfjf5yv@dream-machine.belkin:

> Ok, i'm convinced...the timing must be off.
>
> I haven't checked it yet but after speaking to a couple different
> people today and reading your post, everyone is saying the same
> thing. I also asked if i'm causing any damage to the engine by
> driving it everyday and they told me that based off the symptoms I
> had/have, most likely not. This is good news to me because my hands
> are tied for the next couple weeks. Won't be able to do any work
> till after.
>
> But here is a question: Would it be necessary for me to make the
> timing adjustments at the timing belt level or can I do as the Haynes
> repair manual suggests for Ignition Timing adjustment? And I quote,
> "If an adjustment is required, loosen the three mounting bolts and
> rotate the distributor slightly until the timing is correct. Tighten
> the mounting bolts and recheck the timing. Also recheck idle speed
> to make sure it hasn't changed."
>
> I kinda like the later option (less work)...but it doesn't make sense
> to me. If I turn the distributor, wouldn't I also be turning the
> crankshaft, thus, not solving the timing problem? Or does the
> distributor have the ability to turn by itself?
>
> Sorry for all the little questions...i'm not a pro.
>
> -AGS
>
> On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 01:18:03 -0700, Eric <say.no@spam.now> wrote:
>
>> Always check the timing. Always. It's easy to get the belt off by a
>> tooth. The car will still run but it will change the engine's
>> vacuum. This
>> scenario could explain the initial rough running you experienced.
>> The fact
>> that it smoothed out later could be due to the computer compensating
>> for the
>> changed condition. Of course, there could be other explanations such
>> as a
>> vacuum hose that was accidentally knocked loose.
>>
>> Eric
>
>
>

There's mechanical timing of the camshafts to the crankshaft(timing belt
position),then there's electrical timing of the distributor to the
crankshaft(spark trigger-to-TDC relationship).

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

AGS

Damn...guess i'll have to do it the hard way.

Thanks for the help.

-AGS

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 16:07:50 -0400, disallow <loewen_t@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> If its off by a tooth, then you need to fix the belt.
>
> If the teeth are OK, then you can retard or advance the
> timing while using a timing light and jigging the jumpers to
> turn off the computer advance.
>
> t
>



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AGS

Interesting...

So would cause the electrical timing to be/go off assuming the mechanical
timing was still good? Just curious, not that this applies to my
situation.

-AGS

On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 00:24:42 +0000 (UTC), Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov>
wrote:

> There's mechanical timing of the camshafts to the crankshaft(timing belt
> position),then there's electrical timing of the distributor to the
> crankshaft(spark trigger-to-TDC relationship).
>



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Eric

AGS wrote:
>
> Interesting...
>
> So would cause the electrical timing to be/go off assuming the mechanical
> timing was still good? Just curious, not that this applies to my
> situation.

The distributor is driven off the camshaft. If the camshaft's mechanical
timing is not correct, e.g., the timing belt is off by a tooth or two, then
the ignition timing will not be correct either. Compensating for this by
adjusting the distributor, as you stated your Haynes manual recommends, is
not a correct repair. The engine's mechanical timing must be corrected.

Eric

AGS

Thanks for all the info. This timing belt job has definitely been a
learning experience.

-AGS

On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 13:12:49 -0700, Eric <say.no@spam.now> wrote:

> The distributor is driven off the camshaft. If the camshaft's mechanical
> timing is not correct, e.g., the timing belt is off by a tooth or two,
> then
> the ignition timing will not be correct either. Compensating for this by
> adjusting the distributor, as you stated your Haynes manual recommends,
> is
> not a correct repair. The engine's mechanical timing must be corrected.
>
> Eric



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disallow

The other thing you need to worry about is making the belt
TOO tight. This can be very hard on the bearings, and cause
all sorts of problems.

I actually think that this is the reason my alternator
failed in the first place.

t

Jim Yanik

"disallow" <loewen_t@yahoo.ca> wrote in
news:7b16ece89c32a16dbffef666f015e357@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com:

> The other thing you need to worry about is making the belt
> TOO tight. This can be very hard on the bearings, and cause
> all sorts of problems.
>
> I actually think that this is the reason my alternator
> failed in the first place.
>
> t
>
>

Bearings don't last forever,anyways.
Just think of the environment they have to work in.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net