Re: Battery draining
 

>
> > After taking all of your advice, we found nuthin!
> >
> > BUT, there is this blade fuse in line with a wire
> > coming directly off of the positive terminal of
> > the battery. Apparently, it feeds the fuel pump
> > relay. Its a 30 Amp fuse.
> >
> > Anyways, when I pulled that fuse, the draw on the
> > battery went from 0.87amps to 0.01amps. I'm
> > thinking my problem is there.
> >
> > Any ideas on how to fix this? Once the power goes
> > to the relay, where would it go from there?
>
> Seems odd that they'd fuse a fuel pump with 30Amps and feed it directly
off
> the battery since a a fuel pump doesn't take very much power to run. Power
> delivery (ie power drop across wires, requiring fat wires) is usually not
a
> problem.
>
> My old volvo was an older model and don't remember if they had direct line
> going to the pump.
> What is more logical is that this fuses the alternator. An alternator is
> usually directly connected to the battery. It does have diodes inside that
> short and cause current to flow when it shouldn't. Can you follow that
wire
> to see where it goes?
>
> Also, I'd imagine that if that fat wire and fuse indeed do feed the pump
> through a relay, it would most likely be connected to the contact of the
> relay (the switch side) -- there's no point connecting a high current wire
> to the coil (actuator side) of the relay as that is definitely low
current.
> That being true, the only way that you can have any appreciable current
> running is if the pump is running, even with the car shut off. That relay
> must be driven somehow.
>
> I'd still first check to make sure that that fat wire/fuse is not
connected
> to the alternator, though..

Just one more thought:

We know a car can't drive without a fuel pump but can drive without an
alternator (albeit not very long), right?
Disconnect that offending fuse and see if the car starts and runs. If it
does, that fuse was clearly not to the fuel pump.

Hope you find it soon. Let us know how you make out -- it might be OT but
now I am interested. :)

Remco

Re: Battery draining
 

>
> > After taking all of your advice, we found nuthin!
> >
> > BUT, there is this blade fuse in line with a wire
> > coming directly off of the positive terminal of
> > the battery. Apparently, it feeds the fuel pump
> > relay. Its a 30 Amp fuse.
> >
> > Anyways, when I pulled that fuse, the draw on the
> > battery went from 0.87amps to 0.01amps. I'm
> > thinking my problem is there.
> >
> > Any ideas on how to fix this? Once the power goes
> > to the relay, where would it go from there?
>
> Seems odd that they'd fuse a fuel pump with 30Amps and feed it directly
off
> the battery since a a fuel pump doesn't take very much power to run. Power
> delivery (ie power drop across wires, requiring fat wires) is usually not
a
> problem.
>
> My old volvo was an older model and don't remember if they had direct line
> going to the pump.
> What is more logical is that this fuses the alternator. An alternator is
> usually directly connected to the battery. It does have diodes inside that
> short and cause current to flow when it shouldn't. Can you follow that
wire
> to see where it goes?
>
> Also, I'd imagine that if that fat wire and fuse indeed do feed the pump
> through a relay, it would most likely be connected to the contact of the
> relay (the switch side) -- there's no point connecting a high current wire
> to the coil (actuator side) of the relay as that is definitely low
current.
> That being true, the only way that you can have any appreciable current
> running is if the pump is running, even with the car shut off. That relay
> must be driven somehow.
>
> I'd still first check to make sure that that fat wire/fuse is not
connected
> to the alternator, though..

Just one more thought:

We know a car can't drive without a fuel pump but can drive without an
alternator (albeit not very long), right?
Disconnect that offending fuse and see if the car starts and runs. If it
does, that fuse was clearly not to the fuel pump.

Hope you find it soon. Let us know how you make out -- it might be OT but
now I am interested. :)

Remco

Re: Battery draining
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns965A13A0FF488tegger@207.14.113.17...
> "remco" <whybcuzREMOVE@THISyahoo.com> wrote in
> news:4wvie.12149$yx.9850@fe08.lga:
>
>
>> Well, this is a honda group so this post really doesn't belong here
>
>
>
> Occasional OT posts occur in other groups as well. Typically the poster
> has
> not received a satisfactory answer in the proper group for his vehicle and
> is posting in an OT group as a last resort.
>
> An excellent group for posting fairly general questions (such as this) is
> rec.autos.tech. There are quite a number of very knowledgeable posters
> there, some of whom would be perfect to ask this question of.
>
This particular question does get pretty model-specific, though. I have a
765T instead of a 240, but same year, engine (except the turbo version) and
tranny. One of the important issues regarding the mid-80s Volvos is that the
wiring was made in France and has a reputation for insulation crumbling.
I've heard it called "biodegradable" but I don't know if that was a design
thing or is an epithet. I have already replaced my engine harness but have
had to reinsulate dozens of other wires - and many of them can cause the
drain the OP experiences.

'disallow', since the fuel pump fuse seems to be carrying the current, have
you tried pulling the fuel pump relay to see if it disappears? I'm thinking
you may have a wiring short on the other side of one of the relay coils.
That is a lot of current for a fuel pump relay coil, but it sounds about
right for the in-tank pump, which is controlled by one part of that relay.

Mike

Re: Battery draining
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns965A13A0FF488tegger@207.14.113.17...
> "remco" <whybcuzREMOVE@THISyahoo.com> wrote in
> news:4wvie.12149$yx.9850@fe08.lga:
>
>
>> Well, this is a honda group so this post really doesn't belong here
>
>
>
> Occasional OT posts occur in other groups as well. Typically the poster
> has
> not received a satisfactory answer in the proper group for his vehicle and
> is posting in an OT group as a last resort.
>
> An excellent group for posting fairly general questions (such as this) is
> rec.autos.tech. There are quite a number of very knowledgeable posters
> there, some of whom would be perfect to ask this question of.
>
This particular question does get pretty model-specific, though. I have a
765T instead of a 240, but same year, engine (except the turbo version) and
tranny. One of the important issues regarding the mid-80s Volvos is that the
wiring was made in France and has a reputation for insulation crumbling.
I've heard it called "biodegradable" but I don't know if that was a design
thing or is an epithet. I have already replaced my engine harness but have
had to reinsulate dozens of other wires - and many of them can cause the
drain the OP experiences.

'disallow', since the fuel pump fuse seems to be carrying the current, have
you tried pulling the fuel pump relay to see if it disappears? I'm thinking
you may have a wiring short on the other side of one of the relay coils.
That is a lot of current for a fuel pump relay coil, but it sounds about
right for the in-tank pump, which is controlled by one part of that relay.

Mike

Re: Battery draining
 

"remco" <whybcuzREMOVE@THISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:_2Gie.12210$yx.81@fe08.lga...
> >
>> After taking all of your advice, we found nuthin!
>>
>> BUT, there is this blade fuse in line with a wire
>> coming directly off of the positive terminal of
>> the battery. Apparently, it feeds the fuel pump
>> relay. Its a 30 Amp fuse.
>>
>> Anyways, when I pulled that fuse, the draw on the
>> battery went from 0.87amps to 0.01amps. I'm
>> thinking my problem is there.
>>
>> Any ideas on how to fix this? Once the power goes
>> to the relay, where would it go from there?
>
> Seems odd that they'd fuse a fuel pump with 30Amps and feed it directly
> off
> the battery since a a fuel pump doesn't take very much power to run. Power
> delivery (ie power drop across wires, requiring fat wires) is usually not
> a
> problem.
>
> My old volvo was an older model and don't remember if they had direct line
> going to the pump.
> What is more logical is that this fuses the alternator. An alternator is
> usually directly connected to the battery. It does have diodes inside that
> short and cause current to flow when it shouldn't. Can you follow that
> wire
> to see where it goes?
>
> Also, I'd imagine that if that fat wire and fuse indeed do feed the pump
> through a relay, it would most likely be connected to the contact of the
> relay (the switch side) -- there's no point connecting a high current wire
> to the coil (actuator side) of the relay as that is definitely low
> current.
> That being true, the only way that you can have any appreciable current
> running is if the pump is running, even with the car shut off. That relay
> must be driven somehow.
>
> I'd still first check to make sure that that fat wire/fuse is not
> connected
> to the alternator, though..
>
> Remco
>
>
>
Nope - the fuse is for the fuel pumps. There is a small in-tank impeller
pump that draws a little under an amp and a main pump under the car below
the driver's seat that typically draws a bit under 10 amps... probably more
on startup. Both are controlled by separate sections of the fuel pump relay.
The in-tank pump is on any time the ignition is on, while the main pump is
timer controlled.

The alternator is not fused.

Mike

Re: Battery draining
 

"remco" <whybcuzREMOVE@THISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:_2Gie.12210$yx.81@fe08.lga...
> >
>> After taking all of your advice, we found nuthin!
>>
>> BUT, there is this blade fuse in line with a wire
>> coming directly off of the positive terminal of
>> the battery. Apparently, it feeds the fuel pump
>> relay. Its a 30 Amp fuse.
>>
>> Anyways, when I pulled that fuse, the draw on the
>> battery went from 0.87amps to 0.01amps. I'm
>> thinking my problem is there.
>>
>> Any ideas on how to fix this? Once the power goes
>> to the relay, where would it go from there?
>
> Seems odd that they'd fuse a fuel pump with 30Amps and feed it directly
> off
> the battery since a a fuel pump doesn't take very much power to run. Power
> delivery (ie power drop across wires, requiring fat wires) is usually not
> a
> problem.
>
> My old volvo was an older model and don't remember if they had direct line
> going to the pump.
> What is more logical is that this fuses the alternator. An alternator is
> usually directly connected to the battery. It does have diodes inside that
> short and cause current to flow when it shouldn't. Can you follow that
> wire
> to see where it goes?
>
> Also, I'd imagine that if that fat wire and fuse indeed do feed the pump
> through a relay, it would most likely be connected to the contact of the
> relay (the switch side) -- there's no point connecting a high current wire
> to the coil (actuator side) of the relay as that is definitely low
> current.
> That being true, the only way that you can have any appreciable current
> running is if the pump is running, even with the car shut off. That relay
> must be driven somehow.
>
> I'd still first check to make sure that that fat wire/fuse is not
> connected
> to the alternator, though..
>
> Remco
>
>
>
Nope - the fuse is for the fuel pumps. There is a small in-tank impeller
pump that draws a little under an amp and a main pump under the car below
the driver's seat that typically draws a bit under 10 amps... probably more
on startup. Both are controlled by separate sections of the fuel pump relay.
The in-tank pump is on any time the ignition is on, while the main pump is
timer controlled.

The alternator is not fused.

Mike

Re: Battery draining
 

"tomb" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:x4Bie.18483$J12.8119@newssvr14.news.prodigy.c om...

> A quick google shows that Volvo's of that generation have problems with
> wire
> harnesses quite a bit (insulation eroding away? wtf? :)
>
> http://personal.linkline.com/dbarton/WireHarnesses.html
>
>
Yes indeed! The problem was with wiring starting sometime in the early 80s
and finally corrected by choosing a different supplier in 1988. My Volvo is
an '85 :-(

Affected wire, all the exposed small guage wire outside the passenger
compartment, will lose the insulation if touched. You have seen twigs where
the bark was just a loose crust on the wood? It's exactly like that.
Replacing the engine harness got rid of the majority of the affected wiring,
but I have already replaced or reinsulated dozens of feet of wire besides
that, including all the fuel pump wiring.

Mike

Re: Battery draining
 

"tomb" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:x4Bie.18483$J12.8119@newssvr14.news.prodigy.c om...

> A quick google shows that Volvo's of that generation have problems with
> wire
> harnesses quite a bit (insulation eroding away? wtf? :)
>
> http://personal.linkline.com/dbarton/WireHarnesses.html
>
>
Yes indeed! The problem was with wiring starting sometime in the early 80s
and finally corrected by choosing a different supplier in 1988. My Volvo is
an '85 :-(

Affected wire, all the exposed small guage wire outside the passenger
compartment, will lose the insulation if touched. You have seen twigs where
the bark was just a loose crust on the wood? It's exactly like that.
Replacing the engine harness got rid of the majority of the affected wiring,
but I have already replaced or reinsulated dozens of feet of wire besides
that, including all the fuel pump wiring.

Mike

Re: Battery draining
 

Yes, the wiring harnesses have a really bad reputation. Volvo went through
an exercise to remove all PVC plastics from their cars, and switched to
ABS. ABS has different properties,
yes it is more environmentally friendly. But I
gotta wonder, what has more impact, a wire harness
burning up, or junking an entire vehicle becuase
of a bad wire harness? Cuz I have seen a couple
volvos at the wrecker where thats all that
appears wrong with them. I guess it can get
pretty cost prohibitive to replace the harness
on an older vehicle, the harness for the 240 DL
was over $500 Canandian!

So the ECU wire harness was replaced. The Transmission CU wire harness
was not replaced,
but we did try to reinsulate all of the exposed
wires.

Thanks for the tips Mike. I will try to see
if the fuel pump relay is the culprit. If it
isn't then an examination of the wires after
the relay is in order.

I love this group, so many knowledgable people!

t

Re: Battery draining
 

Yes, the wiring harnesses have a really bad reputation. Volvo went through
an exercise to remove all PVC plastics from their cars, and switched to
ABS. ABS has different properties,
yes it is more environmentally friendly. But I
gotta wonder, what has more impact, a wire harness
burning up, or junking an entire vehicle becuase
of a bad wire harness? Cuz I have seen a couple
volvos at the wrecker where thats all that
appears wrong with them. I guess it can get
pretty cost prohibitive to replace the harness
on an older vehicle, the harness for the 240 DL
was over $500 Canandian!

So the ECU wire harness was replaced. The Transmission CU wire harness
was not replaced,
but we did try to reinsulate all of the exposed
wires.

Thanks for the tips Mike. I will try to see
if the fuel pump relay is the culprit. If it
isn't then an examination of the wires after
the relay is in order.

I love this group, so many knowledgable people!

t

Re: Battery draining
 

Just got this info from a guy on the Volvo
group, in case anyone is interested:

> I just happen to have a wire diagram book for '87 handy. That fuse
only
> feeds the fuel pump relay. With the key off, check for power at the
> following: The red-yellow wire at the injectors and the orange wire on
> pin 5 at the air mass meter. If either have power then the fuel pump
> relay is stuck in the on position and you need a new one.
>
> Also, assuming the battery is fully charged, then this draw shouldn't
> kill it in 10 hours. However, car batteries aren't designed for this
> kind of discharge/recharge and can be quickly damaged when subjected to
> it.
Mike F. Thornhill ON

Re: Battery draining
 

Just got this info from a guy on the Volvo
group, in case anyone is interested:

> I just happen to have a wire diagram book for '87 handy. That fuse
only
> feeds the fuel pump relay. With the key off, check for power at the
> following: The red-yellow wire at the injectors and the orange wire on
> pin 5 at the air mass meter. If either have power then the fuel pump
> relay is stuck in the on position and you need a new one.
>
> Also, assuming the battery is fully charged, then this draw shouldn't
> kill it in 10 hours. However, car batteries aren't designed for this
> kind of discharge/recharge and can be quickly damaged when subjected to
> it.
Mike F. Thornhill ON

Re: Battery draining
 

On 2005-05-17 whybcuzREMOVE@THISyahoo.com said:
>Newsgroups: alt.autos.honda
>"disallow" <loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote in message
>news:621383ac0589c80e3a43ffb0c037d500@localhost.t alkaboutautos.com..
>>. I posted on the Volvo forum, but its not as active
>> as this one, so I thought I would post here too.
>> Recent rebuild on this 85 Volvo 240 DL,
>> 300000kms. Auto Trannie, B230F motor. Sedan. 3 spd trannie.
>> The battery goes dead after about 10 hours of not running. Put my
>> multimeter on it, when running the voltage is 14 volts, which
14 V is a bit low. IIRC, my old Civics run 14.3 V, and that little
bit extra is critical to giving the battery a full charge.
>>rules out the alternator. When not running, I can observe
>> the voltage dropping from 12.75 to about 12.30
>> or so. It may go lower, but this occured over
>> about a minute or so after the car was stopped.
>> Amperage drawn when the car is not running is
>> 0.8 to 0.87 Amps, which shouldn't be enough to drain the battery
>>in 10 hours. This was done
>> by removing the positive battery cable, and
>> putting my multimeter between the cable and
>> the positive post.
>> The battery is brand new, and I realize it could
>> be a dud. However, are there any other things
>> I should be checking? Cables appear to be in good
>> shape. The clamps on the posts are good too.
>> Thanks
I run a 1 KW solar power set-up using a 24 V, 550 AH storage battery
as my main power source. Before putting a new battery into service,
it is essential to give it a proper initial charge, or service life
will suffer.

The voltage you measure suggests your new battery came to you
seriously self-discharged from sitting on the dealer's shelf. Since
it is probably sealed ("maintenance free"), I recommend using a "smart
charger" to prevent excessive gassing from overcharge, and possible
damage.

A properly charged battery may take overnight to drop to 12.6 volts
after the engine is shut off (charge terminated), if not loaded.

Back in the old days, when batteries had cell caps, I never saw a
"new" battery with more than 1/2 charge, specific gravity 1.215. Dry
charged must have a proper forming charge done on it, immediately, or
risk plate destruction due to a chemical process C&D Technologies (a
manufacturer of serious industrial and telephone batteries) calls
"hydration", white crystaline deposits on the plates.

I once monitored battery specific gravity on a new battery installed
without this initial bench-charge, relying on the alternator to bring
it up to full charge with "normal daily driving". Took a month. Not
good!

>800 mA/hr is not normal and may get your battery drained
>sufficiently enough to not start the next day.
>Remco
There is no "/hr" in the units for electrical current. "800 mA" is
correct.


Tom Willmon
near Mountainair, (mid) New Mexico, USA

Net-Tamer V 1.12.0 - Registered

Re: Battery draining
 

On 2005-05-17 whybcuzREMOVE@THISyahoo.com said:
>Newsgroups: alt.autos.honda
>"disallow" <loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote in message
>news:621383ac0589c80e3a43ffb0c037d500@localhost.t alkaboutautos.com..
>>. I posted on the Volvo forum, but its not as active
>> as this one, so I thought I would post here too.
>> Recent rebuild on this 85 Volvo 240 DL,
>> 300000kms. Auto Trannie, B230F motor. Sedan. 3 spd trannie.
>> The battery goes dead after about 10 hours of not running. Put my
>> multimeter on it, when running the voltage is 14 volts, which
14 V is a bit low. IIRC, my old Civics run 14.3 V, and that little
bit extra is critical to giving the battery a full charge.
>>rules out the alternator. When not running, I can observe
>> the voltage dropping from 12.75 to about 12.30
>> or so. It may go lower, but this occured over
>> about a minute or so after the car was stopped.
>> Amperage drawn when the car is not running is
>> 0.8 to 0.87 Amps, which shouldn't be enough to drain the battery
>>in 10 hours. This was done
>> by removing the positive battery cable, and
>> putting my multimeter between the cable and
>> the positive post.
>> The battery is brand new, and I realize it could
>> be a dud. However, are there any other things
>> I should be checking? Cables appear to be in good
>> shape. The clamps on the posts are good too.
>> Thanks
I run a 1 KW solar power set-up using a 24 V, 550 AH storage battery
as my main power source. Before putting a new battery into service,
it is essential to give it a proper initial charge, or service life
will suffer.

The voltage you measure suggests your new battery came to you
seriously self-discharged from sitting on the dealer's shelf. Since
it is probably sealed ("maintenance free"), I recommend using a "smart
charger" to prevent excessive gassing from overcharge, and possible
damage.

A properly charged battery may take overnight to drop to 12.6 volts
after the engine is shut off (charge terminated), if not loaded.

Back in the old days, when batteries had cell caps, I never saw a
"new" battery with more than 1/2 charge, specific gravity 1.215. Dry
charged must have a proper forming charge done on it, immediately, or
risk plate destruction due to a chemical process C&D Technologies (a
manufacturer of serious industrial and telephone batteries) calls
"hydration", white crystaline deposits on the plates.

I once monitored battery specific gravity on a new battery installed
without this initial bench-charge, relying on the alternator to bring
it up to full charge with "normal daily driving". Took a month. Not
good!

>800 mA/hr is not normal and may get your battery drained
>sufficiently enough to not start the next day.
>Remco
There is no "/hr" in the units for electrical current. "800 mA" is
correct.


Tom Willmon
near Mountainair, (mid) New Mexico, USA

Net-Tamer V 1.12.0 - Registered

Re: Battery draining
 

Wow - a fat lead going to the fuel pump -- imagine that...
Maybe this they are using the type of pump that you can also clear a
port-a-potty with :)

Scratch what I said in my previous two posts.