Best anti-theft device for new Honda?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Best anti-theft device for new Honda?
I will be getting my new Honda in a month. It comes with something
called "Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System" (which is one of those
devices which cuts off the ignition and/or other vital systems if it
is tampered with). Additional options I've researched include:
1. Lojack, which in this high tech age may be easily countered by
a pro thief,
2. Window etching, which (apparently) can be easily done with a
$20 DIY kit (acid etches the VIN into your windows)
3. The Club, which is what I used on my old car.
Anything else which might be effective and/or state of the art?
called "Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System" (which is one of those
devices which cuts off the ignition and/or other vital systems if it
is tampered with). Additional options I've researched include:
1. Lojack, which in this high tech age may be easily countered by
a pro thief,
2. Window etching, which (apparently) can be easily done with a
$20 DIY kit (acid etches the VIN into your windows)
3. The Club, which is what I used on my old car.
Anything else which might be effective and/or state of the art?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Best anti-theft device for new Honda?
I have thought about this a long time and all I came up with was park in my
garage all the time, park under a lamp post as much as I can, and have
nothing of value visible in the car.
FWIW,
I saw that the "club" could be removed in less than a minute or two.
They just cut the steering wheel !!!.
Window etching is OK, but can only be used when they "recover" a stolen car
and then try to find out who the owner might be.
Lojack, I thought was neat, because it has a tracking feature.
I wish, there was a study maybe about where they show the rate of thefts vs.
what kind of security
Just a thought. The later laptops have this "fingerprint" thingy.
What would it do in a car ??
A very long time ago, I had a friend who had a Jeep. One of those old Army
type ones.
Each time he came to my house, he took the shifter out !!!.
IR.
"John DiFool" <johndifool@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:eu9sq19isbu2t0o09ppqnkd001tvo08p33@4ax.com...
>I will be getting my new Honda in a month. It comes with something
> called "Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System" (which is one of those
> devices which cuts off the ignition and/or other vital systems if it
> is tampered with). Additional options I've researched include:
>
> 1. Lojack, which in this high tech age may be easily countered by
> a pro thief,
> 2. Window etching, which (apparently) can be easily done with a
> $20 DIY kit (acid etches the VIN into your windows)
> 3. The Club, which is what I used on my old car.
>
> Anything else which might be effective and/or state of the art?
>
>
garage all the time, park under a lamp post as much as I can, and have
nothing of value visible in the car.
FWIW,
I saw that the "club" could be removed in less than a minute or two.
They just cut the steering wheel !!!.
Window etching is OK, but can only be used when they "recover" a stolen car
and then try to find out who the owner might be.
Lojack, I thought was neat, because it has a tracking feature.
I wish, there was a study maybe about where they show the rate of thefts vs.
what kind of security
Just a thought. The later laptops have this "fingerprint" thingy.
What would it do in a car ??
A very long time ago, I had a friend who had a Jeep. One of those old Army
type ones.
Each time he came to my house, he took the shifter out !!!.
IR.
"John DiFool" <johndifool@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:eu9sq19isbu2t0o09ppqnkd001tvo08p33@4ax.com...
>I will be getting my new Honda in a month. It comes with something
> called "Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System" (which is one of those
> devices which cuts off the ignition and/or other vital systems if it
> is tampered with). Additional options I've researched include:
>
> 1. Lojack, which in this high tech age may be easily countered by
> a pro thief,
> 2. Window etching, which (apparently) can be easily done with a
> $20 DIY kit (acid etches the VIN into your windows)
> 3. The Club, which is what I used on my old car.
>
> Anything else which might be effective and/or state of the art?
>
>
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Best anti-theft device for new Honda?
yes, I second that. good insurance from a name-brand company.
"Bucky" <uw_badgers@email.com> wrote in message
news:1135502666.012563.118100@g14g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> John DiFool wrote:
>> Anything else which might be effective and/or state of the art?
>
> comprehensive insurance? =)
>
"Bucky" <uw_badgers@email.com> wrote in message
news:1135502666.012563.118100@g14g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> John DiFool wrote:
>> Anything else which might be effective and/or state of the art?
>
> comprehensive insurance? =)
>
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Best anti-theft device for new Honda?
"John DiFool" <johndifool@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:eu9sq19isbu2t0o09ppqnkd001tvo08p33@4ax.com...
>I will be getting my new Honda in a month. It comes with something
> called "Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System" (which is one of those
> devices which cuts off the ignition and/or other vital systems if it
> is tampered with). Additional options I've researched include:
>
> 1. Lojack, which in this high tech age may be easily countered by
> a pro thief,
> 2. Window etching, which (apparently) can be easily done with a
> $20 DIY kit (acid etches the VIN into your windows)
> 3. The Club, which is what I used on my old car.
>
> Anything else which might be effective and/or state of the art?
The very best plan is to always leave your valuables and purchases out of
sight of prying eyes and to lock your vehicle. This is also one of the most
affordable and easy to use systems available.
Brian
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Best anti-theft device for new Honda?
You're just trying to make your car a little less tempting than the next
guys. If a determined thief wants it, he will get it. The club is a
visual deterent. A switch interupting the fuel pump would also work as
would removing the coil wire. Maybe the best imobilizer is one that that
goes over your wheel and keeps it from turning. They use it to corral
people who get to many tickets. A coworker had his pride and joy towed
out of his driveway at 4:30 AM. Oh well?
guys. If a determined thief wants it, he will get it. The club is a
visual deterent. A switch interupting the fuel pump would also work as
would removing the coil wire. Maybe the best imobilizer is one that that
goes over your wheel and keeps it from turning. They use it to corral
people who get to many tickets. A coworker had his pride and joy towed
out of his driveway at 4:30 AM. Oh well?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Best anti-theft device for new Honda?
John DiFool <johndifool@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:eu9sq19isbu2t0o09ppqnkd001tvo08p33@4ax.com:
> I will be getting my new Honda in a month. It comes with something
> called "Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System" (which is one of those
> devices which cuts off the ignition and/or other vital systems if it
> is tampered with).
Does it have a siren? Or pager to silently notify you your vehicle is being
attacked?
> Additional options I've researched include:
>
> 1. Lojack, which in this high tech age may be easily countered by
> a pro thief,
Effective only if they take the entire car.
> 2. Window etching, which (apparently) can be easily done with a
> $20 DIY kit (acid etches the VIN into your windows)
Good for protecting your window glass,not much else.
> 3. The Club, which is what I used on my old car.
>
> Anything else which might be effective and/or state of the art?
>
>
None of those prevent someone from breaking a window,then removing parts as
they please.Like stereos,ECUs,airbags,your CD collection,any valuables left
in the auto.....
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
news:eu9sq19isbu2t0o09ppqnkd001tvo08p33@4ax.com:
> I will be getting my new Honda in a month. It comes with something
> called "Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System" (which is one of those
> devices which cuts off the ignition and/or other vital systems if it
> is tampered with).
Does it have a siren? Or pager to silently notify you your vehicle is being
attacked?
> Additional options I've researched include:
>
> 1. Lojack, which in this high tech age may be easily countered by
> a pro thief,
Effective only if they take the entire car.
> 2. Window etching, which (apparently) can be easily done with a
> $20 DIY kit (acid etches the VIN into your windows)
Good for protecting your window glass,not much else.
> 3. The Club, which is what I used on my old car.
>
> Anything else which might be effective and/or state of the art?
>
>
None of those prevent someone from breaking a window,then removing parts as
they please.Like stereos,ECUs,airbags,your CD collection,any valuables left
in the auto.....
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Best anti-theft device for new Honda?
"end_is_near1" <walter_bagehot@NOSPAM.yahoo.com> wrote in
news:bNtrf.6322$pE4.4952@tornado.socal.rr.com:
> yes, I second that. good insurance from a name-brand company.
>
> "Bucky" <uw_badgers@email.com> wrote in message
> news:1135502666.012563.118100@g14g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
>> John DiFool wrote:
>>> Anything else which might be effective and/or state of the art?
>>
>> comprehensive insurance? =)
>>
>
>
Insurance only pays AFTER the theft occurs,it does not do anything towards
*preventing* the theft.
Insurance does little good when they steal your engine control module(PGM-
FI ECU) and you can't get a new one for 6 weeks.It also does nothing when
you are stuck somewhere with your car in pieces.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
news:bNtrf.6322$pE4.4952@tornado.socal.rr.com:
> yes, I second that. good insurance from a name-brand company.
>
> "Bucky" <uw_badgers@email.com> wrote in message
> news:1135502666.012563.118100@g14g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
>> John DiFool wrote:
>>> Anything else which might be effective and/or state of the art?
>>
>> comprehensive insurance? =)
>>
>
>
Insurance only pays AFTER the theft occurs,it does not do anything towards
*preventing* the theft.
Insurance does little good when they steal your engine control module(PGM-
FI ECU) and you can't get a new one for 6 weeks.It also does nothing when
you are stuck somewhere with your car in pieces.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Best anti-theft device for new Honda?
"John DiFool" wrote in message...
> I will be getting my new Honda in a month. It comes with something
> called "Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System" (which is one of those
> devices which cuts off the ignition and/or other vital systems if it
> is tampered with). Additional options I've researched include:
>
> 1. Lojack, which in this high tech age may be easily countered by
> a pro thief,
> 2. Window etching, which (apparently) can be easily done with a
> $20 DIY kit (acid etches the VIN into your windows)
> 3. The Club, which is what I used on my old car.
>
> Anything else which might be effective and/or state of the art?
Most effective is the sound of a 12-gauge pump if you're at close range
(e.g. - alarm or silent pager). Good guard dog is also quite effective.
I've used a Kryptonite club, which is more resistant to freezing than the
Club, but doesn't help with the steering wheel being cut. Those thingies
that fit under the brake pedal would be more effective.
I've always wanted to wire a vehicle with c4 that had to be deactivated with
a hidden switch each time you started it... or maybe set off with a cell
phone signal...
> I will be getting my new Honda in a month. It comes with something
> called "Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System" (which is one of those
> devices which cuts off the ignition and/or other vital systems if it
> is tampered with). Additional options I've researched include:
>
> 1. Lojack, which in this high tech age may be easily countered by
> a pro thief,
> 2. Window etching, which (apparently) can be easily done with a
> $20 DIY kit (acid etches the VIN into your windows)
> 3. The Club, which is what I used on my old car.
>
> Anything else which might be effective and/or state of the art?
Most effective is the sound of a 12-gauge pump if you're at close range
(e.g. - alarm or silent pager). Good guard dog is also quite effective.
I've used a Kryptonite club, which is more resistant to freezing than the
Club, but doesn't help with the steering wheel being cut. Those thingies
that fit under the brake pedal would be more effective.
I've always wanted to wire a vehicle with c4 that had to be deactivated with
a hidden switch each time you started it... or maybe set off with a cell
phone signal...
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Best anti-theft device for new Honda?
"John DiFool" <johndifool@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:eu9sq19isbu2t0o09ppqnkd001tvo08p33@4ax.com...
>I will be getting my new Honda in a month. It comes with something
> called "Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System" (which is one of those
> devices which cuts off the ignition and/or other vital systems if it
> is tampered with). Additional options I've researched include:
>
> 1. Lojack, which in this high tech age may be easily countered by
> a pro thief,
> 2. Window etching, which (apparently) can be easily done with a
> $20 DIY kit (acid etches the VIN into your windows)
> 3. The Club, which is what I used on my old car.
>
> Anything else which might be effective and/or state of the art?
>
>
A hidden "kill switch" is effective in preventing the car from being
started, although the immobilizer provides most of that value. I like The
Club and similar devices which can interfere with the increasingly common
towing thefts if used according to instructions. Tow trucks depend on quick
snatches, and even leaving your front wheels inaccessible and turned to the
side will afford a lot of protection.
Mike
news:eu9sq19isbu2t0o09ppqnkd001tvo08p33@4ax.com...
>I will be getting my new Honda in a month. It comes with something
> called "Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System" (which is one of those
> devices which cuts off the ignition and/or other vital systems if it
> is tampered with). Additional options I've researched include:
>
> 1. Lojack, which in this high tech age may be easily countered by
> a pro thief,
> 2. Window etching, which (apparently) can be easily done with a
> $20 DIY kit (acid etches the VIN into your windows)
> 3. The Club, which is what I used on my old car.
>
> Anything else which might be effective and/or state of the art?
>
>
A hidden "kill switch" is effective in preventing the car from being
started, although the immobilizer provides most of that value. I like The
Club and similar devices which can interfere with the increasingly common
towing thefts if used according to instructions. Tow trucks depend on quick
snatches, and even leaving your front wheels inaccessible and turned to the
side will afford a lot of protection.
Mike
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Best anti-theft device for new Honda?
"mrdancer" <mrdancer_at__iw.net> wrote in
news:PMqdnXiQSLMhry3enZ2dnUVZ_vmdnZ2d@prairiewave. com:
> "John DiFool" wrote in message...
>> I will be getting my new Honda in a month. It comes with something
>> called "Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System" (which is one of those
>> devices which cuts off the ignition and/or other vital systems if it
>> is tampered with). Additional options I've researched include:
>>
>> 1. Lojack, which in this high tech age may be easily countered by
>> a pro thief,
>> 2. Window etching, which (apparently) can be easily done with a
>> $20 DIY kit (acid etches the VIN into your windows)
>> 3. The Club, which is what I used on my old car.
>>
>> Anything else which might be effective and/or state of the art?
>
> Most effective is the sound of a 12-gauge pump if you're at close
> range (e.g. - alarm or silent pager). Good guard dog is also quite
> effective.
>
> I've used a Kryptonite club, which is more resistant to freezing than
> the Club, but doesn't help with the steering wheel being cut. Those
> thingies that fit under the brake pedal would be more effective.
>
> I've always wanted to wire a vehicle with c4 that had to be
> deactivated with a hidden switch each time you started it... or maybe
> set off with a cell phone signal...
>
>
>
No,wire a STUN gun under the seats,with a remote to activate;when you see
someone in the car,trigger the stun gun.You probably will have to change
the seats,but it would be well worth it,IMO. B-)
AND it's generally non-lethal,too.
You may have time to call 911 and police actually arrive while the thief is
still disabled.
C-4 means you have to get a whole new car. 8-(
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
news:PMqdnXiQSLMhry3enZ2dnUVZ_vmdnZ2d@prairiewave. com:
> "John DiFool" wrote in message...
>> I will be getting my new Honda in a month. It comes with something
>> called "Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System" (which is one of those
>> devices which cuts off the ignition and/or other vital systems if it
>> is tampered with). Additional options I've researched include:
>>
>> 1. Lojack, which in this high tech age may be easily countered by
>> a pro thief,
>> 2. Window etching, which (apparently) can be easily done with a
>> $20 DIY kit (acid etches the VIN into your windows)
>> 3. The Club, which is what I used on my old car.
>>
>> Anything else which might be effective and/or state of the art?
>
> Most effective is the sound of a 12-gauge pump if you're at close
> range (e.g. - alarm or silent pager). Good guard dog is also quite
> effective.
>
> I've used a Kryptonite club, which is more resistant to freezing than
> the Club, but doesn't help with the steering wheel being cut. Those
> thingies that fit under the brake pedal would be more effective.
>
> I've always wanted to wire a vehicle with c4 that had to be
> deactivated with a hidden switch each time you started it... or maybe
> set off with a cell phone signal...
>
>
>
No,wire a STUN gun under the seats,with a remote to activate;when you see
someone in the car,trigger the stun gun.You probably will have to change
the seats,but it would be well worth it,IMO. B-)
AND it's generally non-lethal,too.
You may have time to call 911 and police actually arrive while the thief is
still disabled.
C-4 means you have to get a whole new car. 8-(
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Best anti-theft device for new Honda?
"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in
news:MLedndfwgrq97S3eRVn-qQ@sedona.net:
> "John DiFool" <johndifool@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:eu9sq19isbu2t0o09ppqnkd001tvo08p33@4ax.com...
>>I will be getting my new Honda in a month. It comes with something
>> called "Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System" (which is one of those
>> devices which cuts off the ignition and/or other vital systems if it
>> is tampered with). Additional options I've researched include:
>>
>> 1. Lojack, which in this high tech age may be easily countered by
>> a pro thief,
>> 2. Window etching, which (apparently) can be easily done with a
>> $20 DIY kit (acid etches the VIN into your windows)
>> 3. The Club, which is what I used on my old car.
>>
>> Anything else which might be effective and/or state of the art?
>>
>>
> A hidden "kill switch" is effective in preventing the car from being
> started, although the immobilizer provides most of that value. I like
> The Club and similar devices which can interfere with the increasingly
> common towing thefts if used according to instructions. Tow trucks
> depend on quick snatches, and even leaving your front wheels
> inaccessible and turned to the side will afford a lot of protection.
>
> Mike
>
But none of those prevent theft of parts or possessions.
To prevent tow thefts,you could have a center-mounted hydraulic jack that
would prevent tows.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
news:MLedndfwgrq97S3eRVn-qQ@sedona.net:
> "John DiFool" <johndifool@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:eu9sq19isbu2t0o09ppqnkd001tvo08p33@4ax.com...
>>I will be getting my new Honda in a month. It comes with something
>> called "Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System" (which is one of those
>> devices which cuts off the ignition and/or other vital systems if it
>> is tampered with). Additional options I've researched include:
>>
>> 1. Lojack, which in this high tech age may be easily countered by
>> a pro thief,
>> 2. Window etching, which (apparently) can be easily done with a
>> $20 DIY kit (acid etches the VIN into your windows)
>> 3. The Club, which is what I used on my old car.
>>
>> Anything else which might be effective and/or state of the art?
>>
>>
> A hidden "kill switch" is effective in preventing the car from being
> started, although the immobilizer provides most of that value. I like
> The Club and similar devices which can interfere with the increasingly
> common towing thefts if used according to instructions. Tow trucks
> depend on quick snatches, and even leaving your front wheels
> inaccessible and turned to the side will afford a lot of protection.
>
> Mike
>
But none of those prevent theft of parts or possessions.
To prevent tow thefts,you could have a center-mounted hydraulic jack that
would prevent tows.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Best anti-theft device for new Honda?
What model of Honda are you getting.
I am thinking of a new Honda...
On 27 Dec 2005 00:11:39 GMT, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in
>news:MLedndfwgrq97S3eRVn-qQ@sedona.net:
>
>> "John DiFool" <johndifool@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>> news:eu9sq19isbu2t0o09ppqnkd001tvo08p33@4ax.com...
>>>I will be getting my new Honda in a month. It comes with something
>>> called "Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System" (which is one of those
>>> devices which cuts off the ignition and/or other vital systems if it
>>> is tampered with). Additional options I've researched include:
>>>
>>> 1. Lojack, which in this high tech age may be easily countered by
>>> a pro thief,
>>> 2. Window etching, which (apparently) can be easily done with a
>>> $20 DIY kit (acid etches the VIN into your windows)
>>> 3. The Club, which is what I used on my old car.
>>>
>>> Anything else which might be effective and/or state of the art?
>>>
>>>
>> A hidden "kill switch" is effective in preventing the car from being
>> started, although the immobilizer provides most of that value. I like
>> The Club and similar devices which can interfere with the increasingly
>> common towing thefts if used according to instructions. Tow trucks
>> depend on quick snatches, and even leaving your front wheels
>> inaccessible and turned to the side will afford a lot of protection.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>
>But none of those prevent theft of parts or possessions.
>
>To prevent tow thefts,you could have a center-mounted hydraulic jack that
>would prevent tows.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Best anti-theft device for new Honda?
it doesn't cut the ignition if its tampered with. The way it works is the
key has a chip in it, without that chip the car won't start.
So if you were to get a copy of your key cut, it would not start the car.
Or if someone tried to hotwire the car, it would not start without the chip
"John DiFool" <johndifool@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:eu9sq19isbu2t0o09ppqnkd001tvo08p33@4ax.com...
>I will be getting my new Honda in a month. It comes with something
> called "Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System" (which is one of those
> devices which cuts off the ignition and/or other vital systems if it
> is tampered with). Additional options I've researched include:
>
> 1. Lojack, which in this high tech age may be easily countered by
> a pro thief,
> 2. Window etching, which (apparently) can be easily done with a
> $20 DIY kit (acid etches the VIN into your windows)
> 3. The Club, which is what I used on my old car.
>
> Anything else which might be effective and/or state of the art?
>
>
key has a chip in it, without that chip the car won't start.
So if you were to get a copy of your key cut, it would not start the car.
Or if someone tried to hotwire the car, it would not start without the chip
"John DiFool" <johndifool@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:eu9sq19isbu2t0o09ppqnkd001tvo08p33@4ax.com...
>I will be getting my new Honda in a month. It comes with something
> called "Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System" (which is one of those
> devices which cuts off the ignition and/or other vital systems if it
> is tampered with). Additional options I've researched include:
>
> 1. Lojack, which in this high tech age may be easily countered by
> a pro thief,
> 2. Window etching, which (apparently) can be easily done with a
> $20 DIY kit (acid etches the VIN into your windows)
> 3. The Club, which is what I used on my old car.
>
> Anything else which might be effective and/or state of the art?
>
>
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Best anti-theft device for new Honda?
Insurance Bureau of Canada has a little blurb saying that the new built in
deterrents are very effective and may even get you a discount.
Here's the link: http://ibc.ca/vehinfo_theft_approveddeterrent.asp
"John DiFool" <johndifool@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:eu9sq19isbu2t0o09ppqnkd001tvo08p33@4ax.com...
>I will be getting my new Honda in a month. It comes with something
> called "Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System" (which is one of those
> devices which cuts off the ignition and/or other vital systems if it
> is tampered with). Additional options I've researched include:
>
> 1. Lojack, which in this high tech age may be easily countered by
> a pro thief,
> 2. Window etching, which (apparently) can be easily done with a
> $20 DIY kit (acid etches the VIN into your windows)
> 3. The Club, which is what I used on my old car.
>
> Anything else which might be effective and/or state of the art?
>
>
deterrents are very effective and may even get you a discount.
Here's the link: http://ibc.ca/vehinfo_theft_approveddeterrent.asp
"John DiFool" <johndifool@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:eu9sq19isbu2t0o09ppqnkd001tvo08p33@4ax.com...
>I will be getting my new Honda in a month. It comes with something
> called "Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System" (which is one of those
> devices which cuts off the ignition and/or other vital systems if it
> is tampered with). Additional options I've researched include:
>
> 1. Lojack, which in this high tech age may be easily countered by
> a pro thief,
> 2. Window etching, which (apparently) can be easily done with a
> $20 DIY kit (acid etches the VIN into your windows)
> 3. The Club, which is what I used on my old car.
>
> Anything else which might be effective and/or state of the art?
>
>