jim beam

On 12/26/2009 10:44 AM, Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam<me@privacy.net> wrote in
> news:HeSdnQFz5eiuzKvWnZ2dnUVZ_rCdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>
>
>> and while i'm talking honda electrics, i could make similar comments
>> about their main relay [mechanical/thermal load on a solder joint???
>
> Honda didn't make the relay,they just specified it and a supplier made it
> to meet those specs.Honda doesn't look inside them.

most unlikely that they didn't. and most suppliers make to customer
spec, not the other way around.


> And generally,the relay lasts well beyond the car's warranty period.

still no excuse. the reason for failure is obvious to anyone
experienced in that stuff - mitsuba should have known better. and honda
should have know better.


>
>
>> duh!] and their distributor's igniter unit [a remarkably
>> retarded/inadequate thermal pathway].
>
> how do you know igniters are failing due to heat?

i don't, but i know enough, and have seen enough failures, to be pretty
confident of that diagnosis. i also know that the later designs that
have the igniter connecting directly to the side wall of the
distributor, thus providing only one thermal interface, not two like the
earlier designs, hardly ever fail.

Jim Yanik

jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
news:XYGdnb_xrdHwwKvWnZ2dnUVZ_vGdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> On 12/26/2009 10:44 AM, Jim Yanik wrote:
>> jim beam<me@privacy.net> wrote in
>> news:HeSdnQFz5eiuzKvWnZ2dnUVZ_rCdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>
>>
>>> and while i'm talking honda electrics, i could make similar comments
>>> about their main relay [mechanical/thermal load on a solder joint???
>>
>> Honda didn't make the relay,they just specified it and a supplier
>> made it to meet those specs.Honda doesn't look inside them.
>
> most unlikely that they didn't. and most suppliers make to customer
> spec, not the other way around.

Honda set the specs,and some other company MADE the relay to Honda's
specs(or already had one on the shelf),which does NOT include the interior
design of the relay.
All Honda cares about is a relay that works on 12V,has "N" switch contacts
that can handle "X" amps,and has a lifetime of at least "Y" operations,and
that fits the physical dimensions they specified.

>
>
>> And generally,the relay lasts well beyond the car's warranty period.
>
> still no excuse.

Yes,it IS a valid "excuse". (actually a FACT,not "excuse".
electrical parts are warranteed for only so long.After that,it's a
crapshoot.Things don't last forever.even hybrid circuits have component
drift,metal migration in the IC's and semicounductors,and are subject to
surges.

> the reason for failure is obvious to anyone
> experienced in that stuff - mitsuba should have known better. and
> honda should have know better.
>
>
>>
>>
>>> duh!] and their distributor's igniter unit [a remarkably
>>> retarded/inadequate thermal pathway].
>>
>> how do you know igniters are failing due to heat?
>
> i don't, but i know enough, and have seen enough failures, to be
> pretty confident of that diagnosis.

Conflicting statements.
You don't know HOW the igniter failed,yet you can be confident of a
"diagnosis" of thermal failure;doesn't make sense.
Just because you've seen a lot of igniter failures doesn't mean you know
HOW they failed.Probably not even the first 3 causes of failure.
It appears to me that you KNOW -nothing- on igniter failure causes.
You just have a hunch.

> i also know that the later
> designs that have the igniter connecting directly to the side wall of
> the distributor, thus providing only one thermal interface, not two
> like the earlier designs, hardly ever fail.


Still doesn't -mean- anything.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

jim beam

On 12/26/2009 03:38 PM, Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam<me@privacy.net> wrote in
> news:XYGdnb_xrdHwwKvWnZ2dnUVZ_vGdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>
>> On 12/26/2009 10:44 AM, Jim Yanik wrote:
>>> jim beam<me@privacy.net> wrote in
>>> news:HeSdnQFz5eiuzKvWnZ2dnUVZ_rCdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>>
>>>
>>>> and while i'm talking honda electrics, i could make similar comments
>>>> about their main relay [mechanical/thermal load on a solder joint???
>>>
>>> Honda didn't make the relay,they just specified it and a supplier
>>> made it to meet those specs.Honda doesn't look inside them.
>>
>> most unlikely that they didn't. and most suppliers make to customer
>> spec, not the other way around.
>
> Honda set the specs,and some other company MADE the relay to Honda's
> specs(or already had one on the shelf),which does NOT include the interior
> design of the relay.
> All Honda cares about is a relay that works on 12V,has "N" switch contacts
> that can handle "X" amps,and has a lifetime of at least "Y" operations,and
> that fits the physical dimensions they specified.

no dude - specs are more complicated than that. you look at the
differing qualities of different componentry - the ecu for example.
those things are ultra high spec componentry throughout, tested up the
wazoo, de-moisturized, conformal coating sealed, and tested again. and
in service, they almost never fail. you'd better believe that honda was
all over the spec in the minutest detail.


>
>>
>>
>>> And generally,the relay lasts well beyond the car's warranty period.
>>
>> still no excuse.
>
> Yes,it IS a valid "excuse". (actually a FACT,not "excuse".
> electrical parts are warranteed for only so long.After that,it's a
> crapshoot.Things don't last forever.even hybrid circuits have component
> drift,metal migration in the IC's and semicounductors,and are subject to
> surges.

dude, that's bullshit. you know how long this stuff lasts if you've
done your homework correctly. there's' absolutely zero excuse for one
component to be a constant weak point, generation after generation [main
relay]. the /reason/ it happened though is because someone like you
simply /assumed/ "oh, it's just a relay" and didn't bother to test
properly. or even inspect inside the box!

that doesn't absolve mitsuba, who also should have known better, but
it's ultimately honda's responsibility for not bothering with something
any moderately competent and experienced electrical tech should have known.


>
>> the reason for failure is obvious to anyone
>> experienced in that stuff - mitsuba should have known better. and
>> honda should have know better.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> duh!] and their distributor's igniter unit [a remarkably
>>>> retarded/inadequate thermal pathway].
>>>
>>> how do you know igniters are failing due to heat?
>>
>> i don't, but i know enough, and have seen enough failures, to be
>> pretty confident of that diagnosis.
>
> Conflicting statements.

er, no they're not. read that sentence again.


> You don't know HOW the igniter failed,yet you can be confident of a
> "diagnosis" of thermal failure;doesn't make sense.

see above. and apply a little logic.


> Just because you've seen a lot of igniter failures doesn't mean you know
> HOW they failed.Probably not even the first 3 causes of failure.
> It appears to me that you KNOW -nothing- on igniter failure causes.
> You just have a hunch.

i know about heat paths, and i know that if one has a weak heat path and
fails, and if another that has a good heat path doesn't, then heat is by
far the most likely cause of failure. if you can't see that, then
you're either being willfully myopic, or you're simply not getting it.


>
>> i also know that the later
>> designs that have the igniter connecting directly to the side wall of
>> the distributor, thus providing only one thermal interface, not two
>> like the earlier designs, hardly ever fail.
>
>
> Still doesn't -mean- anything.

if you can't follow logical analysis, i guess that could be true!

Jim Yanik

jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
news:Ct6dnY0RYoM2P6vWnZ2dnUVZ_sKdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> On 12/26/2009 03:38 PM, Jim Yanik wrote:
>> jim beam<me@privacy.net> wrote in
>> news:XYGdnb_xrdHwwKvWnZ2dnUVZ_vGdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>
>>> On 12/26/2009 10:44 AM, Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>> jim beam<me@privacy.net> wrote in
>>>> news:HeSdnQFz5eiuzKvWnZ2dnUVZ_rCdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> and while i'm talking honda electrics, i could make similar
>>>>> comments about their main relay [mechanical/thermal load on a
>>>>> solder joint???
>>>>
>>>> Honda didn't make the relay,they just specified it and a supplier
>>>> made it to meet those specs.Honda doesn't look inside them.
>>>
>>> most unlikely that they didn't. and most suppliers make to customer
>>> spec, not the other way around.
>>
>> Honda set the specs,and some other company MADE the relay to Honda's
>> specs(or already had one on the shelf),which does NOT include the
>> interior design of the relay.
>> All Honda cares about is a relay that works on 12V,has "N" switch
>> contacts that can handle "X" amps,and has a lifetime of at least "Y"
>> operations,and that fits the physical dimensions they specified.
>
> no dude - specs are more complicated than that. you look at the
> differing qualities of different componentry - the ecu for example.

we're not talking about ECUs,we're talking RELAYS. big difference.

> those things are ultra high spec componentry throughout, tested up the
> wazoo, de-moisturized, conformal coating sealed, and tested again.
> and in service, they almost never fail. you'd better believe that
> honda was all over the spec in the minutest detail.

ECUs are high cost,critical components.

and Honda or any other manufacturer is not going to go to the same level of
engineering detail on a ordinary relay.

>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> And generally,the relay lasts well beyond the car's warranty
>>>> period.
>>>
>>> still no excuse.
>>
>> Yes,it IS a valid "excuse". (actually a FACT,not "excuse".
>> electrical parts are warranteed for only so long.After that,it's a
>> crapshoot.Things don't last forever.even hybrid circuits have
>> component drift,metal migration in the IC's and semicounductors,and
>> are subject to surges.
>
> dude, that's bullshit. you know how long this stuff lasts if you've
> done your homework correctly. there's' absolutely zero excuse for one
> component to be a constant weak point, generation after generation
> [main relay]. the /reason/ it happened though is because someone like
> you simply /assumed/ "oh, it's just a relay" and didn't bother to test
> properly. or even inspect inside the box!

Got news for ya:
relays DO wear out.
Their contacts eventually erode,or they weld together.Some have the plating
wear off and then their life is shortened.Coils can open,or a winding short
to one next to it. you can get bad batches of parts,too.
>
> that doesn't absolve mitsuba, who also should have known better, but
> it's ultimately honda's responsibility for not bothering with
> something any moderately competent and experienced electrical tech
> should have known.
>
>
>>
>>> the reason for failure is obvious to anyone
>>> experienced in that stuff - mitsuba should have known better. and
>>> honda should have know better.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> duh!] and their distributor's igniter unit [a remarkably
>>>>> retarded/inadequate thermal pathway].
>>>>
>>>> how do you know igniters are failing due to heat?
>>>
>>> i don't, but i know enough, and have seen enough failures, to be
>>> pretty confident of that diagnosis.
>>
>> Conflicting statements.
>
> er, no they're not. read that sentence again.

you may be confident of your "analysis",but so what?
you have no DATA to back it up. You -know- nothing.
>
>
>> You don't know HOW the igniter failed,yet you can be confident of a
>> "diagnosis" of thermal failure;doesn't make sense.
>
> see above. and apply a little logic.
>
>
>> Just because you've seen a lot of igniter failures doesn't mean you
>> know HOW they failed.Probably not even the first 3 causes of failure.
>> It appears to me that you KNOW -nothing- on igniter failure causes.
>> You just have a hunch.
>
> i know about heat paths, and i know that if one has a weak heat path
> and fails, and if another that has a good heat path doesn't, then heat
> is by far the most likely cause of failure.

Bad logic. Particularly whan you DONT KNOW WHAT THE FAILURES WERE!
Are the components INSIDE the new igniters the same as the original
igniters? do you even know?


>if you can't see that,
> then you're either being willfully myopic, or you're simply not
> getting it.

you're the one "not getting it".
>
>
>>
>>> i also know that the later
>>> designs that have the igniter connecting directly to the side wall
>>> of the distributor, thus providing only one thermal interface, not
>>> two like the earlier designs, hardly ever fail.
>>
>>
>> Still doesn't -mean- anything.
>
> if you can't follow logical analysis, i guess that could be true!
>
>
>

You just don't know what you're talking about.

But there's no telling you anything.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

jim beam

On 12/26/2009 07:24 PM, Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam<me@privacy.net> wrote in
> news:Ct6dnY0RYoM2P6vWnZ2dnUVZ_sKdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>
>> On 12/26/2009 03:38 PM, Jim Yanik wrote:
>>> jim beam<me@privacy.net> wrote in
>>> news:XYGdnb_xrdHwwKvWnZ2dnUVZ_vGdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>>
>>>> On 12/26/2009 10:44 AM, Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>> jim beam<me@privacy.net> wrote in
>>>>> news:HeSdnQFz5eiuzKvWnZ2dnUVZ_rCdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> and while i'm talking honda electrics, i could make similar
>>>>>> comments about their main relay [mechanical/thermal load on a
>>>>>> solder joint???
>>>>>
>>>>> Honda didn't make the relay,they just specified it and a supplier
>>>>> made it to meet those specs.Honda doesn't look inside them.
>>>>
>>>> most unlikely that they didn't. and most suppliers make to customer
>>>> spec, not the other way around.
>>>
>>> Honda set the specs,and some other company MADE the relay to Honda's
>>> specs(or already had one on the shelf),which does NOT include the
>>> interior design of the relay.
>>> All Honda cares about is a relay that works on 12V,has "N" switch
>>> contacts that can handle "X" amps,and has a lifetime of at least "Y"
>>> operations,and that fits the physical dimensions they specified.
>>
>> no dude - specs are more complicated than that. you look at the
>> differing qualities of different componentry - the ecu for example.
>
> we're not talking about ECUs,we're talking RELAYS. big difference.
>
>> those things are ultra high spec componentry throughout, tested up the
>> wazoo, de-moisturized, conformal coating sealed, and tested again.
>> and in service, they almost never fail. you'd better believe that
>> honda was all over the spec in the minutest detail.
>
> ECUs are high cost,critical components.
>
> and Honda or any other manufacturer is not going to go to the same level of
> engineering detail on a ordinary relay.

why not? the ecu is made up of weeny little low cost components. lots
of them. lots of places to go wrong if, my your logic, no individual
one is worth worrying about.


>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> And generally,the relay lasts well beyond the car's warranty
>>>>> period.
>>>>
>>>> still no excuse.
>>>
>>> Yes,it IS a valid "excuse". (actually a FACT,not "excuse".
>>> electrical parts are warranteed for only so long.After that,it's a
>>> crapshoot.Things don't last forever.even hybrid circuits have
>>> component drift,metal migration in the IC's and semicounductors,and
>>> are subject to surges.
>>
>> dude, that's bullshit. you know how long this stuff lasts if you've
>> done your homework correctly. there's' absolutely zero excuse for one
>> component to be a constant weak point, generation after generation
>> [main relay]. the /reason/ it happened though is because someone like
>> you simply /assumed/ "oh, it's just a relay" and didn't bother to test
>> properly. or even inspect inside the box!
>
> Got news for ya:
> relays DO wear out.
> Their contacts eventually erode,or they weld together.Some have the plating
> wear off and then their life is shortened.Coils can open,or a winding short
> to one next to it. you can get bad batches of parts,too.

and guess what - it's not the contacts failing in these relays!!! it's
the solder joints because the solder is taking thermal/mechanical
load!!! that's "basic electronics 'how not to' manufacture 101" that
anyone using larger hotter electromechanicals learns early on.


>>
>> that doesn't absolve mitsuba, who also should have known better, but
>> it's ultimately honda's responsibility for not bothering with
>> something any moderately competent and experienced electrical tech
>> should have known.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> the reason for failure is obvious to anyone
>>>> experienced in that stuff - mitsuba should have known better. and
>>>> honda should have know better.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> duh!] and their distributor's igniter unit [a remarkably
>>>>>> retarded/inadequate thermal pathway].
>>>>>
>>>>> how do you know igniters are failing due to heat?
>>>>
>>>> i don't, but i know enough, and have seen enough failures, to be
>>>> pretty confident of that diagnosis.
>>>
>>> Conflicting statements.
>>
>> er, no they're not. read that sentence again.
>
> you may be confident of your "analysis",but so what?
> you have no DATA to back it up. You -know- nothing.

er, the data is in what i posted there dude. try one more time.


>>
>>
>>> You don't know HOW the igniter failed,yet you can be confident of a
>>> "diagnosis" of thermal failure;doesn't make sense.
>>
>> see above. and apply a little logic.
>>
>>
>>> Just because you've seen a lot of igniter failures doesn't mean you
>>> know HOW they failed.Probably not even the first 3 causes of failure.
>>> It appears to me that you KNOW -nothing- on igniter failure causes.
>>> You just have a hunch.
>>
>> i know about heat paths, and i know that if one has a weak heat path
>> and fails, and if another that has a good heat path doesn't, then heat
>> is by far the most likely cause of failure.
>
> Bad logic. Particularly whan you DONT KNOW WHAT THE FAILURES WERE!
> Are the components INSIDE the new igniters the same as the original
> igniters? do you even know?

here's a logic test for you:

if i'm bashing a nail with a hammer, and i miss the nail, and at around
that same time, my thumb starts to hurt, do you think the nail missing
and the hurting thumb are connected? i mean, i couldn't actually /see/
the hammer hit my thumb because the hammer was literally in the way.

putting it another way, what would be the likelihood of my hurting thumb
/not/ being hammer strike? because by your logic, my thumb has just
been hit by some other random object i also didn't see.


>
>
>> if you can't see that,
>> then you're either being willfully myopic, or you're simply not
>> getting it.
>
> you're the one "not getting it".

no, i'm the one that's having the temerity to stick to known facts.

>>
>>
>>>
>>>> i also know that the later
>>>> designs that have the igniter connecting directly to the side wall
>>>> of the distributor, thus providing only one thermal interface, not
>>>> two like the earlier designs, hardly ever fail.
>>>
>>>
>>> Still doesn't -mean- anything.
>>
>> if you can't follow logical analysis, i guess that could be true!
>>
>>
>>
>
> You just don't know what you're talking about.

!


>
> But there's no telling you anything.

sure there is. lots of people tell me lots of things. but admittedly,
people that can't pass a basic logic test are going to have a real hard
time trying.