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Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
My 91 Civic LX's front brake calipers are the originals, with 153k miles on
them. Most of those miles were in northern U.S., snowy climates. Everything's working fine, but given the age of the car, I am being pre-emptive. Right now I want to rebuild the front brake calipers. I have replaced the front brake pads twice now without difficulty. My Chilton's manual and the Autozone site have the procedure for "Brake Caliper Overhaul." The procedure says to replace the following (see drawing http://tinyurl.com/3hy6k for item numbers): item 3 = piston boot item 6 = piston seal item 7 = boot clip or "boot ring" item 15 = sleeve boot For my car, Autozone sells 1. a "brake caliper kit" for $2.99 (contains 3, 6, and 7 above?) 2. a "caliper bushing/pin kit" for $12.99 (contains 15 and more above?) The Autozone site doesn't say what these kits include. I will be calling them to try to get this information, but for now-- Has anyone rebuilt their front brake calipers using a kit from Autozone? If so, what did the kit contain? Also, who else might sell a caliper rebuild kit? Lastly, what are criteria to use to decide whether to skip the re-build and instead buy remanufactured calipers? |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:38:31 GMT, "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net>
wrote: ||My 91 Civic LX's front brake calipers are the originals, with 153k miles on ||them. Most of those miles were in northern U.S., snowy climates. Everything's ||working fine, but given the age of the car, I am being pre-emptive. Right now I ||want to rebuild the front brake calipers. I have replaced the front brake pads ||twice now without difficulty. || ||My Chilton's manual and the Autozone site have the procedure for "Brake Caliper ||Overhaul." The procedure says to replace the following (see drawing ||http://tinyurl.com/3hy6k for item numbers): || ||item 3 = piston boot ||item 6 = piston seal ||item 7 = boot clip or "boot ring" ||item 15 = sleeve boot || ||For my car, Autozone sells || ||1. a "brake caliper kit" for $2.99 (contains 3, 6, and 7 above?) That's a seal kit - O-ring that seals the piston, boot that protects the sealing area, and a spring ring to keep the boot in place. ||2. a "caliper bushing/pin kit" for $12.99 (contains 15 and more above?) that should be a "hardware kit" I'd check on getting a reman caliper. Those things are surpisingly cheap, and you won't have to worry about rust pitting. You may have to buy the hardware kit separately, but some brands include hardware. Texas Parts Guy |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
Caroline wrote:
> > My 91 Civic LX's front brake calipers are the originals, with 153k miles > on them. Most of those miles were in northern U.S., snowy climates. > Everything's working fine, but given the age of the car, I am being > pre-emptive. While that may sound like a good idea, if everything is indeed working fine then I would recommend that you leave them alone. > Right now I want to rebuild the front brake calipers. I have replaced the > front brake pads twice now without difficulty. > > My Chilton's manual and the Autozone site have the procedure for "Brake > Caliper Overhaul." The procedure says to replace the following (see > drawing http://tinyurl.com/3hy6k for item numbers): > > item 3 = piston boot > item 6 = piston seal > item 7 = boot clip or "boot ring" > item 15 = sleeve boot > > For my car, Autozone sells > > 1. a "brake caliper kit" for $2.99 (contains 3, 6, and 7 above?) > 2. a "caliper bushing/pin kit" for $12.99 (contains 15 and more above?) > > The Autozone site doesn't say what these kits include. I will be calling > them to try to get this information, but for now-- > > Has anyone rebuilt their front brake calipers using a kit from Autozone? If you do proceed with this, then I would recommend using only Honda OEM parts. In my experience, aftermarket parts (piston seals, piston dust boots, and slider boots) are made from a lower quality rubber than Honda's parts. They will not last nearly as long. The piston dust boots and slider boots crack which exposes critical parts to corrosion. > Lastly, what are criteria to use to decide whether to skip the re-build > and instead buy remanufactured calipers? Check the function of your calipers fist before deciding to do any work. Use a large pair of channel lock pliers to gently squeeze the piston into the caliper for just a second or two. After releasing the pliers, you should see the piston may back out. This is due to the function of the piston seal pulling the piston in the opposite direction it had originally moved. This motion is the primary force responsible for releasing your brakes after they've been applied. If there's a problem with the piston, e.g., corrosion, then the piston will not move back out after you've squeezed it in with the pliers. Note that the amount of motion supplied by the piston seal is not great, perhaps within 1-2 mm, however it's enough to prevent the brakes from dragging. The other function that's critical to prevent dragging brakes is to make sure that the caliper body moves freely on the jail's sliders (the caliper body contains the piston while the jails are the brackets bolted to the steering knuckle). The sliders use a special lubricant to help ensure free movement of the caliper body as the brakes wear down. If the sliders are stiff, then it's fairly straight forward to clean them up and relube them. Though you should check to make sure that they move freely before doing any work on them. As alluded to above, you should inspect the boots on the piston and sliders to make sure that they aren't torn, cracked, etc. By the way, in my opinion, the other poster's suggestion to go with remanufactured calipers is an excellent one. Lastly, one of the best things you can do to prevent brake problems is to have the brake fluid flushed on a regular basis. The recommended interval is every 30K miles or two years. Eric |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
> Lastly, what are criteria to use to decide whether to skip the re-build and > instead buy remanufactured calipers? personally, id wait until they are actually sticking or leaking, then id go with remanufactured. if youre flushing your brake fluid and replacing every 3 yrs/36k miles, they might last the life of the car. |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
contrary to most people that value the convenience of remanufactured
calipers, i would only consider them if your originals are too badly corroded to be reused. i hardly ever buy remanufactured calipers myself. they often use inferior components and/or use harsh cleaning chemicals that can leave parts very close to out of spec. i'd rather buy new instead. regarding rebuild kits, stick with oem - unquestionably much better quality far in excess of the price differential. order online from hondaautomotiveparts.com rebuilding is easy for someone mechanically inclined. if the piston is at all stiff on the way out, lift the caliper free of the disk & have an assistant pump it out with brake fluid pressure. once the piston is free, use a hose clamp like this: http://www.etoolcart.com/browseprodu...mp-HCP750.HTML to prevent excess fluid loss and air locks in the main system. there's also a silicone grease that is very helpful in ensuring the sliding parts remain lubed after reassembly: http://www.permatex.com/auto/autouc....&item_no=20355 silicone is /the/ lube for use with the natural rubber seals in this situation. i think rebuilding is good preemptive practice on a car this vintage and environment. i did the same on the '89 civic i bought earlier this year. before, the brakes were "ok". after, they were magnificent! it's definitely worth it - if you've owned the car a long time, the degradation is so gradual, you don't notice it until you do the refurb. lastly, if you're doing the front, do the rears too. for rears, you may want to consider replacement rather than refurb because the cylinders are fairly cheap alloy and suffer mechanical wear. Caroline wrote: > My 91 Civic LX's front brake calipers are the originals, with 153k miles on > them. Most of those miles were in northern U.S., snowy climates. Everything's > working fine, but given the age of the car, I am being pre-emptive. Right now I > want to rebuild the front brake calipers. I have replaced the front brake pads > twice now without difficulty. > > My Chilton's manual and the Autozone site have the procedure for "Brake Caliper > Overhaul." The procedure says to replace the following (see drawing > http://tinyurl.com/3hy6k for item numbers): > > item 3 = piston boot > item 6 = piston seal > item 7 = boot clip or "boot ring" > item 15 = sleeve boot > > For my car, Autozone sells > > 1. a "brake caliper kit" for $2.99 (contains 3, 6, and 7 above?) > 2. a "caliper bushing/pin kit" for $12.99 (contains 15 and more above?) > > The Autozone site doesn't say what these kits include. I will be calling them to > try to get this information, but for now-- > > Has anyone rebuilt their front brake calipers using a kit from Autozone? If so, > what did the kit contain? > > Also, who else might sell a caliper rebuild kit? > > Lastly, what are criteria to use to decide whether to skip the re-build and > instead buy remanufactured calipers? > > |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
"SoCalMike" <mikein562athotmail@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:qWoEc.1454$IQ4.762@attbi_s02... > > > Lastly, what are criteria to use to decide whether to skip the re-build and > > instead buy remanufactured calipers? > > personally, id wait until they are actually sticking or leaking, then id > go with remanufactured. if youre flushing your brake fluid and replacing > every 3 yrs/36k miles, they might last the life of the car. Forget rebuilding them. I did a rebuild several years back for my daughters 91 Accord. The piston seal is a RPITA to replace. |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
Thanks Rex, Eric, Mike, mrhct, and Jim.
Due to negligence, my 1991 Civic didn't have its first brake flush until 3 years, 60k miles into its life. After this I wasn't much better, abiding only by the 30k mile requirement (again, due to negligence on my part). To date the car has had only 4 brake flushes in its 13 year life. Its due for its next this month (July, 2004). I have never done my own brake flush. I have been studying up on it using Autozone's repair guides, my Chilton's, and the UK (essentially helm) site. I am now prepping for a one-person gravity bleed and flush. After a lot of reading, I feel pretty good about doing it. (The car does not have anti-lock brakes.) I'll test the piston per Eric's description. I am leaning towards a caliper rebuild (instead of buying reman'd calipers), despite the possible headache of replacing the piston seal (and/or boot ring, IIRC from other reports in the group's archive). But I appreciate the warning... I inspected the boots on one of the calipers, and they look "aged." If the piston seems to respond fine with Eric's test, and since the brakes are working fine, I wonder if I might just replace the pin boot, sleeve boot, and guide pin boot (items 13, 14, and 15 at http://tinyurl.com/3hy6k ) and call it a day. I realize that's only about half a rebuild but it looks pretty easy. I'm not up on all the vocabulary you used, Eric (jails, steering knuckles), but I haven't tried googling yet, either. Or if you or someone else wants to say what on the drawing at the link above (or some other link) they are, I'd appreciate it. I will go OEM. I have done no work with drum brakes (which are on the rear of my car). I'm leaving this for some other time. Comments welcome as always. "jim beam" <uce@ftc.gov> wrote > contrary to most people that value the convenience of remanufactured > calipers, i would only consider them if your originals are too badly > corroded to be reused. i hardly ever buy remanufactured calipers > myself. they often use inferior components and/or use harsh cleaning > chemicals that can leave parts very close to out of spec. i'd rather > buy new instead. > > regarding rebuild kits, stick with oem - unquestionably much better > quality far in excess of the price differential. order online from > hondaautomotiveparts.com > > rebuilding is easy for someone mechanically inclined. if the piston is > at all stiff on the way out, lift the caliper free of the disk & have an > assistant pump it out with brake fluid pressure. once the piston is > free, use a hose clamp like this: > http://www.etoolcart.com/browseprodu...mp-HCP750.HTML > to prevent excess fluid loss and air locks in the main system. > > there's also a silicone grease that is very helpful in ensuring the > sliding parts remain lubed after reassembly: > http://www.permatex.com/auto/autouc....item&item_no=2 0355 > silicone is /the/ lube for use with the natural rubber seals in this > situation. > > i think rebuilding is good preemptive practice on a car this vintage and > environment. i did the same on the '89 civic i bought earlier this > year. before, the brakes were "ok". after, they were magnificent! > it's definitely worth it - if you've owned the car a long time, the > degradation is so gradual, you don't notice it until you do the refurb. > > lastly, if you're doing the front, do the rears too. for rears, you may > want to consider replacement rather than refurb because the cylinders > are fairly cheap alloy and suffer mechanical wear. |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
Caroline wrote:
> Thanks Rex, Eric, Mike, mrhct, and Jim. > > Due to negligence, my 1991 Civic didn't have its first brake flush until 3 > years, 60k miles into its life. After this I wasn't much better, abiding only by > the 30k mile requirement (again, due to negligence on my part). To date the car > has had only 4 brake flushes in its 13 year life. Its due for its next this > month (July, 2004). > ++++++++++++ Don't freak out! You've already had twice as many flushes as most Hondas your age. Get a helper to push the pedal (but not to the floor). If you have a good jack, tire iron, and helper, a bleed takes only about an hour on your driveway. Crack all lug nuts loose ahead of time. Start at front-left, then go clockwise (if steering wheel is on left side Use your park brake regularly to keep things in adjustment.(prevents brakes feeling spongy) 'Curly' |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
motsco_ _ wrote:
> Caroline wrote: > >> Thanks Rex, Eric, Mike, mrhct, and Jim. >> >> Due to negligence, my 1991 Civic didn't have its first brake flush >> until 3 >> years, 60k miles into its life. After this I wasn't much better, >> abiding only by >> the 30k mile requirement (again, due to negligence on my part). To >> date the car >> has had only 4 brake flushes in its 13 year life. Its due for its next >> this >> month (July, 2004). >> > > ++++++++++++ > > Don't freak out! You've already had twice as many flushes as most Hondas > your age. Get a helper to push the pedal (but not to the floor). If you > have a good jack, tire iron, and helper, a bleed takes only about an > hour on your driveway. > > Crack all lug nuts loose ahead of time. Start at front-left, then go > clockwise (if steering wheel is on left side > > Use your park brake regularly to keep things in adjustment.(prevents > brakes feeling spongy) > > 'Curly' > curly, where did you get this "parking brake keeps things in adjustment" from? i've seen that repeated a number of times on this group so i'm curious. especially as it's the main service brake that actually does the adjusting, not the parking brake. [take the rear drum off and have an assistant GENTLY press the brake pedal if you want to see it work for yourself - quite a cunning design]. |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
Caroline wrote:
> Thanks Rex, Eric, Mike, mrhct, and Jim. > > Due to negligence, my 1991 Civic didn't have its first brake flush until 3 > years, 60k miles into its life. After this I wasn't much better, abiding only by > the 30k mile requirement (again, due to negligence on my part). To date the car > has had only 4 brake flushes in its 13 year life. Its due for its next this > month (July, 2004). > > I have never done my own brake flush. I have been studying up on it using > Autozone's repair guides, my Chilton's, and the UK (essentially helm) site. I am > now prepping for a one-person gravity bleed and flush. gravity works great for fluid refresh if you don't have airlocks, but it's unreliable in a rebuild like this. borrow a neighbor kid for a few minutes and have them pump the pedal for you. just make sure they understand how important it is that they don't let their foot /off/ the pedal until you say! suckback is bad news. > After a lot of reading, I > feel pretty good about doing it. (The car does not have anti-lock brakes.) > > I'll test the piston per Eric's description. I am leaning towards a caliper > rebuild (instead of buying reman'd calipers), despite the possible headache of > replacing the piston seal that bit's easy - small electrical screwdriver has that thing out in no time. the fiddliest item in the whole job is fitting the new boot, and even that's not too bad if you think about it before you start working. > (and/or boot ring, IIRC from other reports in the > group's archive). But I appreciate the warning... > > I inspected the boots on one of the calipers, and they look "aged." If the > piston seems to respond fine with Eric's test, and since the brakes are working > fine, I wonder if I might just replace the pin boot, sleeve boot, and guide pin > boot (items 13, 14, and 15 at http://tinyurl.com/3hy6k ) and call it a day. I > realize that's only about half a rebuild but it looks pretty easy. I'm not up > on all the vocabulary you used, Eric (jails, steering knuckles), but I haven't > tried googling yet, either. Or if you or someone else wants to say what on the > drawing at the link above (or some other link) they are, I'd appreciate it. > > I will go OEM. > > I have done no work with drum brakes (which are on the rear of my car). I'm > leaving this for some other time. if you need to, you can replace the rear cylinders without removing the shoe assembly. if you want to tackle the rear shoes, that's not such a big deal. despite the fact that it's often sworn at as being difficult to reassemble, i promise, it can be done without brute force, skinned knuckles and special tools. simply attach the brake cable, screw the adjuster bar all the way back in, fit the main tension spring, and you can then "puzzle" that essembly back into position in one piece. then you can fit the lower spring by hand and puzzle that into position also. i watched my dad mess about with all kinds of problems on these things for years - always a dreadful business. then saw it done by an an old pro - he had the whole thing back in, fully assembled inside 2 minutes. no tools. it was great! it's all technique & confidence. > > Comments welcome as always. > > "jim beam" <uce@ftc.gov> wrote > >>contrary to most people that value the convenience of remanufactured >>calipers, i would only consider them if your originals are too badly >>corroded to be reused. i hardly ever buy remanufactured calipers >>myself. they often use inferior components and/or use harsh cleaning >>chemicals that can leave parts very close to out of spec. i'd rather >>buy new instead. >> >>regarding rebuild kits, stick with oem - unquestionably much better >>quality far in excess of the price differential. order online from >>hondaautomotiveparts.com >> >>rebuilding is easy for someone mechanically inclined. if the piston is >>at all stiff on the way out, lift the caliper free of the disk & have an >>assistant pump it out with brake fluid pressure. once the piston is >>free, use a hose clamp like this: >>http://www.etoolcart.com/browseprodu...mp-HCP750.HTML >>to prevent excess fluid loss and air locks in the main system. >> >>there's also a silicone grease that is very helpful in ensuring the >>sliding parts remain lubed after reassembly: >> > > http://www.permatex.com/auto/autouc....item&item_no=2 > 0355 > >>silicone is /the/ lube for use with the natural rubber seals in this >>situation. >> >>i think rebuilding is good preemptive practice on a car this vintage and >>environment. i did the same on the '89 civic i bought earlier this >>year. before, the brakes were "ok". after, they were magnificent! >>it's definitely worth it - if you've owned the car a long time, the >>degradation is so gradual, you don't notice it until you do the refurb. >> >>lastly, if you're doing the front, do the rears too. for rears, you may >>want to consider replacement rather than refurb because the cylinders >>are fairly cheap alloy and suffer mechanical wear. > > > |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 18:33:48 GMT, jim beam <uce@ftc.gov> wrote:
||Caroline wrote: ||> Thanks Rex, Eric, Mike, mrhct, and Jim. ||> ||> Due to negligence, my 1991 Civic didn't have its first brake flush until 3 ||> years, 60k miles into its life. After this I wasn't much better, abiding only by ||> the 30k mile requirement (again, due to negligence on my part). To date the car ||> has had only 4 brake flushes in its 13 year life. Its due for its next this ||> month (July, 2004). ||> ||> I have never done my own brake flush. I have been studying up on it using ||> Autozone's repair guides, my Chilton's, and the UK (essentially helm) site. I am ||> now prepping for a one-person gravity bleed and flush. || ||gravity works great for fluid refresh if you don't have airlocks, but ||it's unreliable in a rebuild like this. borrow a neighbor kid for a few ||minutes and have them pump the pedal for you. just make sure they ||understand how important it is that they don't let their foot /off/ the ||pedal until you say! suckback is bad news. Put a wooden block under the pedal ||> replacing the piston seal || ||that bit's easy - small electrical screwdriver has that thing out in no ||time. the fiddliest item in the whole job is fitting the new boot, and ||even that's not too bad if you think about it before you start working. I agree, you can do it. || ||if you need to, you can replace the rear cylinders without removing the ||shoe assembly. || ||if you want to tackle the rear shoes, that's not such a big deal. ||despite the fact that it's often sworn at as being difficult to ||reassemble, i promise, it can be done without brute force, skinned ||knuckles and special tools. simply attach the brake cable, screw the ||adjuster bar all the way back in, fit the main tension spring, and you ||can then "puzzle" that essembly back into position in one piece. then ||you can fit the lower spring by hand and puzzle that into position also. The key to working on rear drums is to remove both drums, hose them off to get rid of the dust, then work on one side at a time. That way you can look at the other side if you get confused. Texas Parts Guy |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
Caroline wrote: > Thanks Rex, Eric, Mike, mrhct, and Jim. > > Due to negligence, my 1991 Civic didn't have its first brake flush until 3 > years, 60k miles into its life. After this I wasn't much better, abiding only by > the 30k mile requirement (again, due to negligence on my part). To date the car > has had only 4 brake flushes in its 13 year life. Its due for its next this > month (July, 2004). dudette, youre probably 4 brake flushes ahead of most 91 civics! i have yet to give my 98 its second, but its only at 46k miles. i plan to very soon though. > > I have never done my own brake flush. I have been studying up on it using > Autozone's repair guides, my Chilton's, and the UK (essentially helm) site. I am > now prepping for a one-person gravity bleed and flush. After a lot of reading, I > feel pretty good about doing it. (The car does not have anti-lock brakes.) i got a mityvac kit at harbor freight... works great, 1 person. no pedal pumping, which is what can screw up the master cylinder! start at the far rear, then drivers rear, then pass front, then drivers front, working your way to the master cylinder. by then, all the fluid should be that nice straw color! compared to what youve done so far, itll be a non-event. trust me. > > I'll test the piston per Eric's description. I am leaning towards a caliper > rebuild (instead of buying reman'd calipers), despite the possible headache of > replacing the piston seal (and/or boot ring, IIRC from other reports in the > group's archive). But I appreciate the warning... or you can jack up the front, take the wheels off, and turn the rotors by hand. then press the brakes and do it again. thatll tell you if one side is sticking. youll feel it. some dragging is normal, but both rotors should move ok. |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
motsco_ _ wrote: > Caroline wrote: > >> Thanks Rex, Eric, Mike, mrhct, and Jim. >> >> Due to negligence, my 1991 Civic didn't have its first brake flush >> until 3 >> years, 60k miles into its life. After this I wasn't much better, >> abiding only by >> the 30k mile requirement (again, due to negligence on my part). To >> date the car >> has had only 4 brake flushes in its 13 year life. Its due for its next >> this >> month (July, 2004). >> > > ++++++++++++ > > Don't freak out! You've already had twice as many flushes as most Hondas > your age. Get a helper to push the pedal (but not to the floor). id go with the mityvac. its hard to say where exactly the ridge in the master cylinder might be. itll come in handy reading vacuum and doing other tests that require vacuum and/or pressure. its a fun tool! |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
"SoCalMike" <mikein562athotmail@hotmail.com> wrote
> Caroline wrote: > > Due to negligence, my 1991 Civic didn't have its first brake flush until 3 > > years, 60k miles into its life. After this I wasn't much better, abiding only by > > the 30k mile requirement (again, due to negligence on my part). To date the car > > has had only 4 brake flushes in its 13 year life. Its due for its next this > > month (July, 2004). > > dudette, youre probably 4 brake flushes ahead of most 91 civics! i have > yet to give my 98 its second, but its only at 46k miles. i plan to very > soon though. :-) I'm not freakin' or sweatin' it, Curly and Mike. Just "coming clean" with my automotive sins. > > I have never done my own brake flush. I have been studying up on it using > > Autozone's repair guides, my Chilton's, and the UK (essentially helm) site. I am > > now prepping for a one-person gravity bleed and flush. After a lot of reading, I > > feel pretty good about doing it. (The car does not have anti-lock brakes.) > > i got a mityvac kit at harbor freight... works great, 1 person. no pedal > pumping, which is what can screw up the master cylinder! start at the > far rear, then drivers rear, then pass front, then drivers front, > working your way to the master cylinder. by then, all the fluid should > be that nice straw color! I saw quite a bit of commentary on the mityvac kits when googling the archives. I'll look into this more tomorrow. Aside: I discovered Harbor Freight two weeks ago. There's a store not too far from me. It's for anyone interested in low price tools at not necessarily Craftsman quality. I bought a 20 to 200 inch-pound Pittsburgh torque wrench there for under $20 (on sale). I'm using it all the time. Compared it a couple times to my larger, Home Depot Husky torque wrench (lower ranges). Works great, though I realize it likely won't last as long (or hold calibration as long) as something much more expensive. > compared to what youve done so far, itll be a non-event. trust me. 'kay-doke. :-) > > I'll test the piston per Eric's description. I am leaning towards a caliper > > rebuild (instead of buying reman'd calipers), despite the possible headache of > > replacing the piston seal (and/or boot ring, IIRC from other reports in the > > group's archive). But I appreciate the warning... > > or you can jack up the front, take the wheels off, and turn the rotors > by hand. then press the brakes and do it again. thatll tell you if one > side is sticking. youll feel it. some dragging is normal, but both > rotors should move ok. Sounds good. |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
"jim beam" <uce@ftc.gov> wrote
> Caroline wrote: > > I have never done my own brake flush. I have been studying up on it using > > Autozone's repair guides, my Chilton's, and the UK (essentially helm) site. I am > > now prepping for a one-person gravity bleed and flush. > > gravity works great for fluid refresh if you don't have airlocks, but > it's unreliable in a rebuild like this. borrow a neighbor kid for a few > minutes and have them pump the pedal for you. just make sure they > understand how important it is that they don't let their foot /off/ the > pedal until you say! suckback is bad news. > > > After a lot of reading, I > > feel pretty good about doing it. (The car does not have anti-lock brakes.) > > > > I'll test the piston per Eric's description. I am leaning towards a caliper > > rebuild (instead of buying reman'd calipers), despite the possible headache of > > replacing the piston seal > > that bit's easy - small electrical screwdriver has that thing out in no > time. the fiddliest item in the whole job is fitting the new boot, and > even that's not too bad if you think about it before you start working. Update: I did a "dry run" over the weekend and found that the three boots per caliper were in pretty good condition, after all. After more study, I decided to "rebuild" only the piston, replacing the piston seal, the boot ring, and the boot. Majestic (online parts) had quite a delay, due to both the July 4 holiday and because it didn't have all the OEM parts in stock, and so I ultimately canceled an order I had with them (which they were very cool about). I called my favorite independent shop, and they likewise didn't keep these parts but suggested I use a Napa piston rebuild kit by United. I ended up using this kit. $14 per piston, which is a lot less than OEM, though I note others' concerns about material quality. As you suggested, Jim, I raised the caliper and then used the brake pedal to increase the brake fluid pressure. Slowly, with a lot of checking, I pushed the piston out far enough that I could wobble it a bit with my fingers as it sat in its boot. When the caliper was off and at the workbench, I ended up pounding a bit (going through the banjo bolt hole with a wooden dowel). To novices: Beware the close tolerance of the piston in the cylinder. Don't "pound hard" anything on the caliper. With the electrician's screwdriver (thin, small diameter) I probed around the piston boot an hour or so trying to figure out how everything went together. I found the metal of the boot ring beneath the gunky buildup near the circumference. I soon found I could pry the boot ring up and out easily. The boot ring seems just a little thicker and just a little stiffer than baling wire. On the next caliper, this all went a lot faster, of course. Which grease to buy was puzzling for a few days. My Chilton's manual says to use "silicone grease" on the pins on which the caliper "floats" and "cylinder grease" on the piston seal. Plenty of silicone greases are in the hardware and auto parts stores, but I went with a synthetic grease dedicated to brake calipers, like I think Jim cited with his link. $2 for a generous packet at Autozone. It's red in color. It said it could be used on pistons, too, so, fed up with the conflicts in my research on this issue and what the stores were selling, I used the red Autozone synthetic grease on the pins and a very thin film of it on the piston seal, along with brake fluid, for the required lubrication. The piston seal was no problem installing. The piston went back in place pretty easily, with a little help from a C-clamp. A little fidgeting got the boot and boot ring into place pretty easily, too. I cleaned up the three sleeves with a degreaser followed by a thorough water rinse and let them dry. I wiped down the two pin (= bolt) assemblies, applied the red caliper grease, and re-assembled all. After studying reports on the MityVac vacuum pump for brake bleeding, I happily splurged on the super-duper MityVac kit at Harbor Freight. (I"m on a "buy only really nice tools" kick, anyway. Plus, like Mike said, I can use the MityVac for vacuum tests elsewhere on my car's engine.) Using a vacuum to pump out the brake fluid at each wheel made a lot of sense to me. So too does not operating the brake pedal, at some risk to the master cylinder. All as Mike and others in the archives have suggested. In hindsight, I don't know how I could have achieved as thorough and controlled a flush as I think I did without the MityVac kit. I goofed once and I think dropped the level below the bottom of the Master Cylinder reservoir. "Gulp" sound at the reserovoir? Big mistake. I was going to do a more thorough flush anyway and so pretty easily recovered from this mistake. Naturally, you test the car's brakes thoroughly before going out on the roads. After the "gulp," the pedal went just about to the floor and wouldn't "lock," so I knew I'd probably injected an air bubble into the system. The MityVac fittings worked great on the front caliper bleeder valves but not so well on the rear ones. Consequently, vacuum was harder to hold on the rears, and a lot more air bubbles came through the Mityvac hose for the rears. Undoubtedly this was from the ambient air leaking through the fitting and not the brake fluid in the car's system. The car's braking fine, so I am not worried. Jim, I removed the brake drums from the rear brakes, cleaned off the inside parts with brake cleaner, and got a good look at the cylinders and what all is going on in there. I've got plenty of shoe left (by the specs for the car) and figure that most of the braking power comes from the front, anyway. Thus I'm holding off replacing the rear brake cylinders until I need another pair of rear brake shoes. (The car's on its second pair of rear brake shoes at 154k miles.) Hose pinchers (= clamps) were a vital part to this job, as Jim suggested. After more study, I ended up with a pair from Autozone for $7 or so. They operate like little vises and did the job perfectly. I could not locate anything like what Jim cited online at any of the Auto parts stores or hardware stores, though I would have preferred the clamps he suggested. Easier fastening and releasing... In hindsight, and as several here suggested, I'd say anyone on a tight budget worried about his/her car's brakes and reasonably mechanically inclined could probably get away with just cleaning up the sleeves, pins (= bolts), and piston boot, and boot ring. From the pistons I carefully scraped off a tiny bit (but just enough to resist motion, I figured) of residue, too. Re-grease with synthetic caliper grease, bleed, and you're back on the road. "Must have" tools and materials for this job to me are: Medium-large C-clamp Hose pinchers (= clamps) Mityvac kit Brake cleaner (read what it can go on and what it can't) Brake fluid Jack stands, one pair Lotta cardboard to lay on the ground and on the car where you're doing the work. Brake fluid eats paint. As always, I appreciate the various nudges in the right direction folks provided here. All responses were helpful to making decisions on this. |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
>After studying reports on the MityVac vacuum pump for brake bleeding, I happily
>splurged on the super-duper MityVac kit at Harbor Freight. (I"m on a "buy only >really nice tools" kick, anyway. Plus, like Mike said, I can use the MityVac for >vacuum tests elsewhere on my car's engine.) Using a vacuum to pump out the brake >fluid at each wheel made a lot of sense to me. So too does not operating the >brake pedal, at some risk to the master cylinder. All as Mike and others in the >archives have suggested. Re: Mityvac, Which one did you get? I checked Harbor Freight and they had 3.. $29, $33, $50.. What's the difference between them? It looks like the diff between the 29 and 33 is that the $33 has a gauge, but I also saw the $50, and didn't see much of a difference except the case, and that it might be metal..?? Thanks Randall Fox |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
"Randall Fox" <fox_no_spam-usenet001@yahoo.com> wrote
> >After studying reports on the MityVac vacuum pump for brake bleeding, I > >happily splurged on the super-duper MityVac kit at Harbor Freight. snip > Which one did you get? I checked Harbor Freight and they had 3.. > $29, $33, $50.. What's the difference between them? It looks like > the diff between the 29 and 33 is that the $33 has a gauge, but I > also saw the $50, and didn't see much of a difference except the case, > and that it might be metal..?? Randall, I bought #2068, priced at $53.99 I agree the difference between it and #39522 (priced at $33.99) is the fact that the more expensive one has the case and is some kind of metal. From googling I think a lot of people are quite happy with the $33.99 or lower version. I'd say the version I bought is an extravagance. Maybe the super-duper one will last a bit longer but if one only wants to bleed brakes, the plastic pump may easily last many years. I drove a bit farther today and my brakes feel just a bit mushy. I will try to bleed a little more air tomorrow, hopefully with some sort of improved fitting for the rear brake bleeder valves. OTOH, the ride is noticeably quieter and smoother (both with the brakes applied and not applied) than I remember. |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 21:06:04 GMT, "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net>
wrote: ||"Randall Fox" <fox_no_spam-usenet001@yahoo.com> wrote ||> >After studying reports on the MityVac vacuum pump for brake bleeding, I ||> >happily splurged on the super-duper MityVac kit at Harbor Freight. ||snip ||> Which one did you get? I checked Harbor Freight and they had 3.. ||> $29, $33, $50.. What's the difference between them? It looks like ||> the diff between the 29 and 33 is that the $33 has a gauge, but I ||> also saw the $50, and didn't see much of a difference except the case, ||> and that it might be metal..?? || ||Randall, || ||I bought #2068, priced at $53.99 I agree the difference between it and #39522 ||(priced at $33.99) is the fact that the more expensive one has the case and is ||some kind of metal. || ||From googling I think a lot of people are quite happy with the $33.99 or lower ||version. I'd say the version I bought is an extravagance. Maybe the super-duper ||one will last a bit longer but if one only wants to bleed brakes, the plastic ||pump may easily last many years. || ||I drove a bit farther today and my brakes feel just a bit mushy. I will try to ||bleed a little more air tomorrow, hopefully with some sort of improved fitting ||for the rear brake bleeder valves. #07000 includes a brake bleeding kit. Includes a fluid feeder to keep the MC full automatically while you are under the car sucking (sorry, couldn't resist). It also includes a bottle to catch the fluid before it gets to your Mityvac. Alternately, you can use a common jar, with tubes epoxied into the lid. One tube goes to the bottom and attaches to the tube that goes to the brake nipple. The other just goes through the lid and attaches to the Mityvac #06000 is just the brake bleeding accessory kit. #07205 brake bleeding accessory Kit kit has a molded silicone tip that snaps over a brake bleeder nipple. The kit costs as much as you probably paid for your gun, but I don't see that particular tip listed as a separate service item. And Mityvac recommends using teflon tape on the threads to prevent air being sucked in around the threads and giving you false readings. I highly recommend doing this. Not only does the fluid come out in a solid stream, it reduces the amount of pumping. It also eliminates the possibility of a seized bleeder screw in the future. Just be careful not to get the tape near the tip. .. Texas Parts Guy |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
glad it worked out ok!
regarding refitting the pistons, they should slide back in with just thumb pressure. the important seal points are the outer face of the cylinder groove and the piston wall. the groove is hard cast iron & difficult to mess up if you're using a scraper - one that's not too scratchy anyway. this means you can scrape out /all/ the accumulated oxidation & gunk in the cylinder without too much fear. likewise, the piston is forged & hard chrome plated. it too is fairly wear resistant, so the flat blade of a larger blunt screw driver makes a great scraper to get these things clean. [try not to drop it tho - can bash up the piston wall quite badly if it improbably happens to land exactly square on the only flinty surface for miles around.... :( ] when all that's done, and the seal/piston are lubed up, it should slide back in without any significant resistance. regarding lube, yes, brake fluid is the recommended lube if you don't have silicone handy - it contains rubber preservatives as well as being slippery. BUT, it's also highly corrosive in the presence of water. if you're living in a wet or snowy climate, this'll show itself by rusting the piston solid. this is why good quality boots/seals are vital and the silicone is so useful. a thin film on the cylinder wall both above & below the seal. then a thin film on the piston before insertion. [which is how you discover not to drop them.] as the piston slides in, the lube scrapes off the piston at the seal and completely fills the gap. this and a thin film on the sealing surface of the boot, ensures the brake fluid is as sealed as possible from moisture ingress and hence not as likely to corrode. Caroline wrote: > "jim beam" <uce@ftc.gov> wrote > >>Caroline wrote: >> >>>I have never done my own brake flush. I have been studying up on it using >>>Autozone's repair guides, my Chilton's, and the UK (essentially helm) site. > > I am > >>>now prepping for a one-person gravity bleed and flush. >> >>gravity works great for fluid refresh if you don't have airlocks, but >>it's unreliable in a rebuild like this. borrow a neighbor kid for a few >>minutes and have them pump the pedal for you. just make sure they >>understand how important it is that they don't let their foot /off/ the >>pedal until you say! suckback is bad news. >> >> >>>After a lot of reading, I >>>feel pretty good about doing it. (The car does not have anti-lock brakes.) >>> >>>I'll test the piston per Eric's description. I am leaning towards a caliper >>>rebuild (instead of buying reman'd calipers), despite the possible headache > > of > >>>replacing the piston seal >> >>that bit's easy - small electrical screwdriver has that thing out in no >>time. the fiddliest item in the whole job is fitting the new boot, and >>even that's not too bad if you think about it before you start working. > > > Update: > > I did a "dry run" over the weekend and found that the three boots per caliper > were in pretty good condition, after all. After more study, I decided to > "rebuild" only the piston, replacing the piston seal, the boot ring, and the > boot. Majestic (online parts) had quite a delay, due to both the July 4 holiday > and because it didn't have all the OEM parts in stock, and so I ultimately > canceled an order I had with them (which they were very cool about). I called my > favorite independent shop, and they likewise didn't keep these parts but > suggested I use a Napa piston rebuild kit by United. I ended up using this kit. > $14 per piston, which is a lot less than OEM, though I note others' concerns > about material quality. > > As you suggested, Jim, I raised the caliper and then used the brake pedal to > increase the brake fluid pressure. Slowly, with a lot of checking, I pushed the > piston out far enough that I could wobble it a bit with my fingers as it sat in > its boot. When the caliper was off and at the workbench, I ended up pounding a > bit (going through the banjo bolt hole with a wooden dowel). To novices: Beware > the close tolerance of the piston in the cylinder. Don't "pound hard" anything > on the caliper. > > With the electrician's screwdriver (thin, small diameter) I probed around the > piston boot an hour or so trying to figure out how everything went together. I > found the metal of the boot ring beneath the gunky buildup near the > circumference. I soon found I could pry the boot ring up and out easily. The > boot ring seems just a little thicker and just a little stiffer than baling > wire. > > On the next caliper, this all went a lot faster, of course. > > Which grease to buy was puzzling for a few days. My Chilton's manual says to use > "silicone grease" on the pins on which the caliper "floats" and "cylinder > grease" on the piston seal. Plenty of silicone greases are in the hardware and > auto parts stores, but I went with a synthetic grease dedicated to brake > calipers, like I think Jim cited with his link. $2 for a generous packet at > Autozone. It's red in color. It said it could be used on pistons, too, so, fed > up with the conflicts in my research on this issue and what the stores were > selling, I used the red Autozone synthetic grease on the pins and a very thin > film of it on the piston seal, along with brake fluid, for the required > lubrication. > > The piston seal was no problem installing. The piston went back in place pretty > easily, with a little help from a C-clamp. A little fidgeting got the boot and > boot ring into place pretty easily, too. > > I cleaned up the three sleeves with a degreaser followed by a thorough water > rinse and let them dry. I wiped down the two pin (= bolt) assemblies, applied > the red caliper grease, and re-assembled all. > > After studying reports on the MityVac vacuum pump for brake bleeding, I happily > splurged on the super-duper MityVac kit at Harbor Freight. (I"m on a "buy only > really nice tools" kick, anyway. Plus, like Mike said, I can use the MityVac for > vacuum tests elsewhere on my car's engine.) Using a vacuum to pump out the brake > fluid at each wheel made a lot of sense to me. So too does not operating the > brake pedal, at some risk to the master cylinder. All as Mike and others in the > archives have suggested. > > In hindsight, I don't know how I could have achieved as thorough and controlled > a flush as I think I did without the MityVac kit. > > I goofed once and I think dropped the level below the bottom of the Master > Cylinder reservoir. "Gulp" sound at the reserovoir? Big mistake. I was going to > do a more thorough flush anyway and so pretty easily recovered from this > mistake. Naturally, you test the car's brakes thoroughly before going out on the > roads. After the "gulp," the pedal went just about to the floor and wouldn't > "lock," so I knew I'd probably injected an air bubble into the system. > > The MityVac fittings worked great on the front caliper bleeder valves but not so > well on the rear ones. Consequently, vacuum was harder to hold on the rears, and > a lot more air bubbles came through the Mityvac hose for the rears. Undoubtedly > this was from the ambient air leaking through the fitting and not the brake > fluid in the car's system. The car's braking fine, so I am not worried. > > Jim, I removed the brake drums from the rear brakes, cleaned off the inside > parts with brake cleaner, and got a good look at the cylinders and what all is > going on in there. I've got plenty of shoe left (by the specs for the car) and > figure that most of the braking power comes from the front, anyway. Thus I'm > holding off replacing the rear brake cylinders until I need another pair of rear > brake shoes. (The car's on its second pair of rear brake shoes at 154k miles.) > > Hose pinchers (= clamps) were a vital part to this job, as Jim suggested. After > more study, I ended up with a pair from Autozone for $7 or so. They operate like > little vises and did the job perfectly. I could not locate anything like what > Jim cited online at any of the Auto parts stores or hardware stores, though I > would have preferred the clamps he suggested. Easier fastening and releasing... > > In hindsight, and as several here suggested, I'd say anyone on a tight budget > worried about his/her car's brakes and reasonably mechanically inclined could > probably get away with just cleaning up the sleeves, pins (= bolts), and piston > boot, and boot ring. From the pistons I carefully scraped off a tiny bit (but > just enough to resist motion, I figured) of residue, too. Re-grease with > synthetic caliper grease, bleed, and you're back on the road. > > "Must have" tools and materials for this job to me are: > Medium-large C-clamp > Hose pinchers (= clamps) > Mityvac kit > Brake cleaner (read what it can go on and what it can't) > Brake fluid > Jack stands, one pair > Lotta cardboard to lay on the ground and on the car where you're doing the work. > Brake fluid eats paint. > > As always, I appreciate the various nudges in the right direction folks provided > here. All responses were helpful to making decisions on this. > > |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
||regarding lube, yes, brake fluid is the recommended lube
Actually, the recommended lube is Brake Assembly Lubricant. The old Raybestos number was BSF12. It would be hard to find. Texas Parts Guy |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
>Randall, > >I bought #2068, priced at $53.99 I agree the difference between it and #39522 >(priced at $33.99) is the fact that the more expensive one has the case and is >some kind of metal. > >From googling I think a lot of people are quite happy with the $33.99 or lower >version. I'd say the version I bought is an extravagance. Maybe the super-duper >one will last a bit longer but if one only wants to bleed brakes, the plastic >pump may easily last many years. Caroline, Rex, Thanks for the info... Randall Fox |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
Rex B wrote:
> ||regarding lube, yes, brake fluid is the recommended lube > > Actually, the recommended lube is Brake Assembly Lubricant. > The old Raybestos number was BSF12. It would be hard to find. > Texas Parts Guy "brake fluid is the recommended lube _if you don't have silicone handy_" yes, there's a number of products like you mention. the important thing is NEVER to use a normal grease - complete ruination. |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
Good one for the archives, Jim, particularly about where to apply the silicone
grease. I couldn't quite get the pistons back in with thumb pressure. It sure didn't take much force from the C-clamp (and I was on the lookout for applying the force incorrectly, watching for tilting of the piston as I tightened the C-clamp), so I'm not concerned. More for the archives: I think I bled each wheel altogether twice more. (Helluva workout in the last few days. Makes me think about buying a hydraulic jack lift.) I used a different Mityvac bleeder valve adaptor on the rear brakes and got the vacuum from the Mityvac pump to hold better. Still, I never got the fairly solid stream that I'd get at the front brakes. OTOH, I had teflon tape on the front bleeder screws from the get-go. I never removed the (all rusty) rear bleeder screws. Next time I do a bleed, I will replace the rear bleeder screws and teflon tape them. It seemed like the brakes were still a tad mushy, but I was not sure. Thus the extra bleeds. Then after more study I read that mal-adjusted rear brakes might very well imitate air in the system. I couldn't find the "star wheel adjuster" the first time I cleaned up the rear brakes last week and so hadn't touched it on either side. I went at it again yesterday. Bustard technical manual Chilton technical writers say simply that the adjuster is "located on the inboard side, underneath the control arm." That's like saying the PCV valve is in the engine compartment... somewhere... I googled and someone wrote about his/her trailer brakes and how they have little rubber plugs that have to be removed to get to the "star wheel adjuster." Majestic's site indicated the existence of such an "adjuster plug" on the rear brakes (as well as the adjuster). Someone else's Usenet post commented about how the plug was on the inboard side of the brake backing plate. Someone else said to use a flashlight to see it. All true. The plug is at about the 1 o'clock or 11'o'clock position (depending on the car's side) on the inboard side of the drum brake's backing plate. If one really wants to see the star adjuster well, skip the flashlight and take off the drum. Overall, I had more luck making the adjustment with the drum off than through the plug hole. Of course, one has to keep fitting the drum over the shoes etc. to see how the fit is. The star adjuster wheel itself is just a little 1/2-inch diameter or so gear or circular ratchet. The results of my rear brake adjustments: Noticeably less mush in the brake pedal. I think it's better than when I first began this adventure, though I'm still suspicious that my sloppiness in bleeding the brake system (the "gulp" at the MC reservoir) led to more air than is desirable in the system. The parking brake is much tighter, too. The last time the rear brakes were adjusted must have been when I had the rear brake shoes replaced, four years ago, around 112,000 miles. "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote > regarding refitting the pistons, they should slide back in with just > thumb pressure. the important seal points are the outer face of the > cylinder groove and the piston wall. the groove is hard cast iron & > difficult to mess up if you're using a scraper - one that's not too > scratchy anyway. this means you can scrape out /all/ the accumulated > oxidation & gunk in the cylinder without too much fear. likewise, the > piston is forged & hard chrome plated. it too is fairly wear resistant, > so the flat blade of a larger blunt screw driver makes a great scraper > to get these things clean. [try not to drop it tho - can bash up the > piston wall quite badly if it improbably happens to land exactly square > on the only flinty surface for miles around.... :( ] > > when all that's done, and the seal/piston are lubed up, it should slide > back in without any significant resistance. > > regarding lube, yes, brake fluid is the recommended lube if you don't > have silicone handy - it contains rubber preservatives as well as being > slippery. BUT, it's also highly corrosive in the presence of water. if > you're living in a wet or snowy climate, this'll show itself by rusting > the piston solid. this is why good quality boots/seals are vital and > the silicone is so useful. a thin film on the cylinder wall both > above & below the seal. then a thin film on the piston before > insertion. [which is how you discover not to drop them.] as the piston > slides in, the lube scrapes off the piston at the seal and completely > fills the gap. this and a thin film on the sealing surface of the boot, > ensures the brake fluid is as sealed as possible from moisture ingress > and hence not as likely to corrode. |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:15:34 GMT, "Caroline"
<caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote: > >I googled and someone wrote about his/her trailer brakes and how they have >little rubber plugs that have to be removed to get to the "star wheel adjuster." >Majestic's site indicated the existence of such an "adjuster plug" on the rear >brakes (as well as the adjuster). Someone else's Usenet post commented about how >the plug was on the inboard side of the brake backing plate. Someone else said >to use a flashlight to see it. > >All true. > >The plug is at about the 1 o'clock or 11'o'clock position (depending on the >car's side) on the inboard side of the drum brake's backing plate. If one really >wants to see the star adjuster well, skip the flashlight and take off the drum. > >Overall, I had more luck making the adjustment with the drum off than through >the plug hole. Of course, one has to keep fitting the drum over the shoes etc. >to see how the fit is. > >The star adjuster wheel itself is just a little 1/2-inch diameter or so gear or >circular ratchet. I thought that star wheel, in between the two clevis pins, was supposed to be turned by the self-adjusting lever?? Rgds, George Macdonald "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me?? |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote
> <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote: > >I googled and someone wrote about his/her trailer brakes and how they have > >little rubber plugs that have to be removed to get to the "star wheel adjuster." > >Majestic's site indicated the existence of such an "adjuster plug" on the rear > >brakes (as well as the adjuster). Someone else's Usenet post commented about how > >the plug was on the inboard side of the brake backing plate. Someone else said > >to use a flashlight to see it. > > > >All true. > > > >The plug is at about the 1 o'clock or 11'o'clock position (depending on the > >car's side) on the inboard side of the drum brake's backing plate. If one really > >wants to see the star adjuster well, skip the flashlight and take off the drum. > > > >Overall, I had more luck making the adjustment with the drum off than through > >the plug hole. Of course, one has to keep fitting the drum over the shoes etc. > >to see how the fit is. > > > >The star adjuster wheel itself is just a little 1/2-inch diameter or so gear or > >circular ratchet. > > I thought that star wheel, in between the two clevis pins, was supposed to > be turned by the self-adjusting lever?? True. For example: _____ Most modern drum brakes are designed to self-adjust during application when the vehicle is moving in reverse. This motion causes both shoes to rotate very slightly with the drum, rocking an adjusting lever. The self-adjusters are only intended to compensate for normal wear. Although the adjustment is "automatic," there is a definite method to actuate the self-adjuster, which is done during normal driving. Driving the vehicle in reverse and applying the brakes usually activates the automatic adjusters. If the brake pedal was low, you should be able to feel an increase in the height of the brake pedal. -- from Chilton's and Autozone's site for circa 1991 Civics, "Brake Operating System: General Description" _____ In addition, as I'm sure you're aware but for the record, parts drawings identify the "self-adjuster lever" etc. that operates the star wheel adjuster. But also -- 1. Chilton's and Autozone give a procedure for manual adjustment of the rear brakes. It's under the "Adjustments: Rear Drum Brake Adjustment." I assume manual adjustment is for 'non-normal wear.' 2. Googling for {star wheel adjuster} or similar words on adjusting rear brakes turned up some posts that talked about limitations in the self-adjusting mechanism. IIRC someone (or two) claimed that you had to drive in reverse, brake, then drive forward a little and do this repeatedly (to get enough turns on the star wheel adjuster) to get a good adjustment. The persons(s) said it was easier and more reliable to do the adjustment manually. 3. _____ On vehicles with rear drum brakes, mis-adjusted brake shoes can cause a "long" pedal and reduced braking, giving the illusion of air in the lines. If you're trying to track down such a problem, adjust the rear brakes and test drive the car before bleeding the system. --from Chilton's and Autozone, "Bleeding the Brake System," typed in bold, right before the first step for bleeding. _____ I am a bit concerned I overtightened the shoes such that they are too close to the drums. Guess this will just wear the shoes quicker. Also, I can't say I'm 100% confident the self-adjusting lever is doing its job. It seems a flimsy design that doesn't hold the star wheel all that securely, so as to achieve only the one-way rotation that should occur as the brake shoes wear. OTOH, the star wheel adjuster wasn't that easy to turn in either direction. (I pulled the lever out a little to rotate the star wheel adjuster such that the shoes didn't press against the drum, as I was experimenting.) I did put a couple of drops of "PB Blaster" on the star wheel adjuster-bolt threads, where it mates to the clevises, as best I could, trying to minimize the stuff getting onto anything else. This seemed to help. Again, this is the first time I've ever personally (1) bled, and ultimately effectively flushed, the brake system and (2) removed the rear drums and "brake cleanered" the rear brakes' guts. I will certainly consider further commentary on my approach here. |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
Caroline wrote:
> "George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote > >><caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote: >> >>>I googled and someone wrote about his/her trailer brakes and how they have >>>little rubber plugs that have to be removed to get to the "star wheel > > adjuster." > >>>Majestic's site indicated the existence of such an "adjuster plug" on the > > rear > >>>brakes (as well as the adjuster). Someone else's Usenet post commented about > > how > >>>the plug was on the inboard side of the brake backing plate. Someone else > > said > >>>to use a flashlight to see it. >>> >>>All true. >>> >>>The plug is at about the 1 o'clock or 11'o'clock position (depending on the >>>car's side) on the inboard side of the drum brake's backing plate. If one > > really > >>>wants to see the star adjuster well, skip the flashlight and take off the > > drum. > >>>Overall, I had more luck making the adjustment with the drum off than through >>>the plug hole. Of course, one has to keep fitting the drum over the shoes > > etc. > >>>to see how the fit is. >>> >>>The star adjuster wheel itself is just a little 1/2-inch diameter or so gear > > or > >>>circular ratchet. >> >>I thought that star wheel, in between the two clevis pins, was supposed to >>be turned by the self-adjusting lever?? > > > > True. For example: > _____ > Most modern drum brakes are designed to self-adjust during application when the > vehicle is moving in reverse. This motion causes both shoes to rotate very > slightly with the drum, rocking an adjusting lever. The self-adjusters are only > intended to compensate for normal wear. Although the adjustment is "automatic," > there is a definite method to actuate the self-adjuster, which is done during > normal driving. Driving the vehicle in reverse and applying the brakes usually > activates the automatic adjusters. If the brake pedal was low, you should be > able to feel an increase in the height of the brake pedal. > -- from Chilton's and Autozone's site for circa 1991 Civics, "Brake Operating > System: General Description" > _____ > > In addition, as I'm sure you're aware but for the record, parts drawings > identify the "self-adjuster lever" etc. that operates the star wheel adjuster. > > But also -- > > 1. > Chilton's and Autozone give a procedure for manual adjustment of the rear > brakes. It's under the "Adjustments: Rear Drum Brake Adjustment." I assume > manual adjustment is for 'non-normal wear.' > > 2. > Googling for {star wheel adjuster} or similar words on adjusting rear brakes > turned up some posts that talked about limitations in the self-adjusting > mechanism. IIRC someone (or two) claimed that you had to drive in reverse, > brake, then drive forward a little and do this repeatedly (to get enough turns > on the star wheel adjuster) to get a good adjustment. The persons(s) said it was > easier and more reliable to do the adjustment manually. > > 3. > _____ > On vehicles with rear drum brakes, mis-adjusted brake shoes can cause a "long" > pedal and reduced braking, giving the illusion of air in the lines. If you're > trying to track down such a problem, adjust the rear brakes and test drive the > car before bleeding the system. > --from Chilton's and Autozone, "Bleeding the Brake System," typed in bold, right > before the first step for bleeding. > _____ > > I am a bit concerned I overtightened the shoes such that they are too close to > the drums. Guess this will just wear the shoes quicker. Also, I can't say I'm > 100% confident the self-adjusting lever is doing its job. It seems a flimsy > design that doesn't hold the star wheel all that securely, so as to achieve only > the one-way rotation that should occur as the brake shoes wear. > > OTOH, the star wheel adjuster wasn't that easy to turn in either direction. (I > pulled the lever out a little to rotate the star wheel adjuster such that the > shoes didn't press against the drum, as I was experimenting.) > > I did put a couple of drops of "PB Blaster" on the star wheel adjuster-bolt > threads, where it mates to the clevises, as best I could, trying to minimize the > stuff getting onto anything else. This seemed to help. > > Again, this is the first time I've ever personally (1) bled, and ultimately > effectively flushed, the brake system and (2) removed the rear drums and "brake > cleanered" the rear brakes' guts. I will certainly consider further commentary > on my approach here. i know it's frequently cited here, and it's not your fault, but imo, reversing to adjust the rear drums is in the same league as using the emergency brakes to adjust them - complete rubbish. anyone that's watched the adjuster mechanism in action with the drum removed can easily see how it works - there's no black magic or art involved - they are designed to self-adjust in normal operation. that said however, adjustment /does/ depend on the adjuster wheel being free to rotate. if it's rusted, clogged or screwed in too tight [say after new shoes have been fitted], it won't work and the assembly needs to be stripped down, cleaned, lubed & reassembled. i also find that a little manual pre-adjustment helps get the ball rolling. the adjuster can then be heard clicking on release after each time the brake pedal has been pressed hard. just keep operating the brake until the clicking stops. then you should have a great feeling pedal and good brakes. |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:24:55 GMT, "Caroline"
<caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote: >"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote >> <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote: >> >I googled and someone wrote about his/her trailer brakes and how they have >> >little rubber plugs that have to be removed to get to the "star wheel >adjuster." >> >Majestic's site indicated the existence of such an "adjuster plug" on the >rear >> >brakes (as well as the adjuster). Someone else's Usenet post commented about >how >> >the plug was on the inboard side of the brake backing plate. Someone else >said >> >to use a flashlight to see it. >> > >> >All true. >> > >> >The plug is at about the 1 o'clock or 11'o'clock position (depending on the >> >car's side) on the inboard side of the drum brake's backing plate. If one >really >> >wants to see the star adjuster well, skip the flashlight and take off the >drum. >> > >> >Overall, I had more luck making the adjustment with the drum off than through >> >the plug hole. Of course, one has to keep fitting the drum over the shoes >etc. >> >to see how the fit is. >> > >> >The star adjuster wheel itself is just a little 1/2-inch diameter or so gear >or >> >circular ratchet. >> >> I thought that star wheel, in between the two clevis pins, was supposed to >> be turned by the self-adjusting lever?? > > >True. For example: >_____ >Most modern drum brakes are designed to self-adjust during application when the >vehicle is moving in reverse. This motion causes both shoes to rotate very >slightly with the drum, rocking an adjusting lever. The self-adjusters are only >intended to compensate for normal wear. Although the adjustment is "automatic," >there is a definite method to actuate the self-adjuster, which is done during >normal driving. Driving the vehicle in reverse and applying the brakes usually >activates the automatic adjusters. If the brake pedal was low, you should be >able to feel an increase in the height of the brake pedal. >-- from Chilton's and Autozone's site for circa 1991 Civics, "Brake Operating >System: General Description" >_____ > >In addition, as I'm sure you're aware but for the record, parts drawings >identify the "self-adjuster lever" etc. that operates the star wheel adjuster. > >But also -- > >1. >Chilton's and Autozone give a procedure for manual adjustment of the rear >brakes. It's under the "Adjustments: Rear Drum Brake Adjustment." I assume >manual adjustment is for 'non-normal wear.' Both of above sound like Chilton's "generic advice" again.:-( >2. >Googling for {star wheel adjuster} or similar words on adjusting rear brakes >turned up some posts that talked about limitations in the self-adjusting >mechanism. IIRC someone (or two) claimed that you had to drive in reverse, >brake, then drive forward a little and do this repeatedly (to get enough turns >on the star wheel adjuster) to get a good adjustment. The persons(s) said it was >easier and more reliable to do the adjustment manually. The Honda/Helm manual for a '90 Civic describes the procedure for changing rear brake shoes and the final step says to press the brake pedal to set the self-adjusting mechanism. >3. >_____ >On vehicles with rear drum brakes, mis-adjusted brake shoes can cause a "long" >pedal and reduced braking, giving the illusion of air in the lines. If you're >trying to track down such a problem, adjust the rear brakes and test drive the >car before bleeding the system. >--from Chilton's and Autozone, "Bleeding the Brake System," typed in bold, right >before the first step for bleeding. >_____ > >I am a bit concerned I overtightened the shoes such that they are too close to >the drums. Guess this will just wear the shoes quicker. Also, I can't say I'm >100% confident the self-adjusting lever is doing its job. It seems a flimsy >design that doesn't hold the star wheel all that securely, so as to achieve only >the one-way rotation that should occur as the brake shoes wear. Yeah I've never been convinced that a self-adjusting mechanism, as implemented, can work effectively in the environment it lives in after a few years of lubricant burn-off, clag and corrosion build-up. If there's any drag, it's easy to check the drum temps after a drive. >OTOH, the star wheel adjuster wasn't that easy to turn in either direction. (I >pulled the lever out a little to rotate the star wheel adjuster such that the >shoes didn't press against the drum, as I was experimenting.) > >I did put a couple of drops of "PB Blaster" on the star wheel adjuster-bolt >threads, where it mates to the clevises, as best I could, trying to minimize the >stuff getting onto anything else. This seemed to help. > >Again, this is the first time I've ever personally (1) bled, and ultimately >effectively flushed, the brake system and (2) removed the rear drums and "brake >cleanered" the rear brakes' guts. I will certainly consider further commentary >on my approach here. At least the Honda drums are easy to get off - I recall my Beetles which needed a 250ft-lb torque wrench to get the rear axle nut off. Rgds, George Macdonald "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me?? |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
On 7/13/04 12:08 AM, in article FLSdnTjBtsSi827dRVn-gw@comcast.com, "jim
beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote: > Caroline wrote: >> "George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote >> >>> <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote: >>> >>>> I googled and someone wrote about his/her trailer brakes and how they have >>>> little rubber plugs that have to be removed to get to the "star wheel >> >> adjuster." >> >>>> Majestic's site indicated the existence of such an "adjuster plug" on the >> >> rear >> >>>> brakes (as well as the adjuster). Someone else's Usenet post commented >>>> about >> >> how >> >>>> the plug was on the inboard side of the brake backing plate. Someone else >> >> said >> >>>> to use a flashlight to see it. >>>> >>>> All true. >>>> >>>> The plug is at about the 1 o'clock or 11'o'clock position (depending on the >>>> car's side) on the inboard side of the drum brake's backing plate. If one >> >> really >> >>>> wants to see the star adjuster well, skip the flashlight and take off the >> >> drum. >> >>>> Overall, I had more luck making the adjustment with the drum off than >>>> through >>>> the plug hole. Of course, one has to keep fitting the drum over the shoes >> >> etc. >> >>>> to see how the fit is. >>>> >>>> The star adjuster wheel itself is just a little 1/2-inch diameter or so >>>> gear >> >> or >> >>>> circular ratchet. >>> >>> I thought that star wheel, in between the two clevis pins, was supposed to >>> be turned by the self-adjusting lever?? >> >> >> >> True. For example: >> _____ >> Most modern drum brakes are designed to self-adjust during application when >> the >> vehicle is moving in reverse. This motion causes both shoes to rotate very >> slightly with the drum, rocking an adjusting lever. The self-adjusters are >> only >> intended to compensate for normal wear. Although the adjustment is >> "automatic," >> there is a definite method to actuate the self-adjuster, which is done during >> normal driving. Driving the vehicle in reverse and applying the brakes >> usually >> activates the automatic adjusters. If the brake pedal was low, you should be >> able to feel an increase in the height of the brake pedal. >> -- from Chilton's and Autozone's site for circa 1991 Civics, "Brake Operating >> System: General Description" >> _____ >> >> In addition, as I'm sure you're aware but for the record, parts drawings >> identify the "self-adjuster lever" etc. that operates the star wheel >> adjuster. >> >> But also -- >> >> 1. >> Chilton's and Autozone give a procedure for manual adjustment of the rear >> brakes. It's under the "Adjustments: Rear Drum Brake Adjustment." I assume >> manual adjustment is for 'non-normal wear.' >> >> 2. >> Googling for {star wheel adjuster} or similar words on adjusting rear brakes >> turned up some posts that talked about limitations in the self-adjusting >> mechanism. IIRC someone (or two) claimed that you had to drive in reverse, >> brake, then drive forward a little and do this repeatedly (to get enough >> turns >> on the star wheel adjuster) to get a good adjustment. The persons(s) said it >> was >> easier and more reliable to do the adjustment manually. >> >> 3. >> _____ >> On vehicles with rear drum brakes, mis-adjusted brake shoes can cause a >> "long" >> pedal and reduced braking, giving the illusion of air in the lines. If you're >> trying to track down such a problem, adjust the rear brakes and test drive >> the >> car before bleeding the system. >> --from Chilton's and Autozone, "Bleeding the Brake System," typed in bold, >> right >> before the first step for bleeding. >> _____ >> >> I am a bit concerned I overtightened the shoes such that they are too close >> to >> the drums. Guess this will just wear the shoes quicker. Also, I can't say I'm >> 100% confident the self-adjusting lever is doing its job. It seems a flimsy >> design that doesn't hold the star wheel all that securely, so as to achieve >> only >> the one-way rotation that should occur as the brake shoes wear. >> >> OTOH, the star wheel adjuster wasn't that easy to turn in either direction. >> (I >> pulled the lever out a little to rotate the star wheel adjuster such that the >> shoes didn't press against the drum, as I was experimenting.) >> >> I did put a couple of drops of "PB Blaster" on the star wheel adjuster-bolt >> threads, where it mates to the clevises, as best I could, trying to minimize >> the >> stuff getting onto anything else. This seemed to help. >> >> Again, this is the first time I've ever personally (1) bled, and ultimately >> effectively flushed, the brake system and (2) removed the rear drums and >> "brake >> cleanered" the rear brakes' guts. I will certainly consider further >> commentary >> on my approach here. > > i know it's frequently cited here, and it's not your fault, but imo, > reversing to adjust the rear drums is in the same league as using the > emergency brakes to adjust them - complete rubbish. anyone that's > watched the adjuster mechanism in action with the drum removed can > easily see how it works - there's no black magic or art involved - they > are designed to self-adjust in normal operation. Not true as a general statement. I have personally owned cars that were specifically designed to only adjust the brakes when stopping in reverse (anything GM from the 60s & 70s), and I have personally owned cars that only moved the adjuster when the parking brake was set. I have also owned cars with rear drum brakes that maintain adjustment in normal usage ('02 Pathfinder). Some don't even have an adjusting wheel, they use a sliding wedge. Calling it all rubbish is rubbish. You have to look at the mechanism used by the specific manufacturer to correctly answer this question. > > that said however, adjustment /does/ depend on the adjuster wheel being > free to rotate. if it's rusted, clogged or screwed in too tight [say > after new shoes have been fitted], it won't work and the assembly needs > to be stripped down, cleaned, lubed & reassembled. i also find that a > little manual pre-adjustment helps get the ball rolling. the adjuster > can then be heard clicking on release after each time the brake pedal > has been pressed hard. just keep operating the brake until the clicking > stops. then you should have a great feeling pedal and good brakes. > > > |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
E. Meyer wrote:
> On 7/13/04 12:08 AM, in article FLSdnTjBtsSi827dRVn-gw@comcast.com, "jim > beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote: > > >>Caroline wrote: >> >>>"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote >>> >>> >>>><caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>I googled and someone wrote about his/her trailer brakes and how they have >>>>>little rubber plugs that have to be removed to get to the "star wheel >>> >>>adjuster." >>> >>> >>>>>Majestic's site indicated the existence of such an "adjuster plug" on the >>> >>>rear >>> >>> >>>>>brakes (as well as the adjuster). Someone else's Usenet post commented >>>>>about >>> >>>how >>> >>> >>>>>the plug was on the inboard side of the brake backing plate. Someone else >>> >>>said >>> >>> >>>>>to use a flashlight to see it. >>>>> >>>>>All true. >>>>> >>>>>The plug is at about the 1 o'clock or 11'o'clock position (depending on the >>>>>car's side) on the inboard side of the drum brake's backing plate. If one >>> >>>really >>> >>> >>>>>wants to see the star adjuster well, skip the flashlight and take off the >>> >>>drum. >>> >>> >>>>>Overall, I had more luck making the adjustment with the drum off than >>>>>through >>>>>the plug hole. Of course, one has to keep fitting the drum over the shoes >>> >>>etc. >>> >>> >>>>>to see how the fit is. >>>>> >>>>>The star adjuster wheel itself is just a little 1/2-inch diameter or so >>>>>gear >>> >>>or >>> >>> >>>>>circular ratchet. >>>> >>>>I thought that star wheel, in between the two clevis pins, was supposed to >>>>be turned by the self-adjusting lever?? >>> >>> >>> >>>True. For example: >>>_____ >>>Most modern drum brakes are designed to self-adjust during application when >>>the >>>vehicle is moving in reverse. This motion causes both shoes to rotate very >>>slightly with the drum, rocking an adjusting lever. The self-adjusters are >>>only >>>intended to compensate for normal wear. Although the adjustment is >>>"automatic," >>>there is a definite method to actuate the self-adjuster, which is done during >>>normal driving. Driving the vehicle in reverse and applying the brakes >>>usually >>>activates the automatic adjusters. If the brake pedal was low, you should be >>>able to feel an increase in the height of the brake pedal. >>>-- from Chilton's and Autozone's site for circa 1991 Civics, "Brake Operating >>>System: General Description" >>>_____ >>> >>>In addition, as I'm sure you're aware but for the record, parts drawings >>>identify the "self-adjuster lever" etc. that operates the star wheel >>>adjuster. >>> >>>But also -- >>> >>>1. >>>Chilton's and Autozone give a procedure for manual adjustment of the rear >>>brakes. It's under the "Adjustments: Rear Drum Brake Adjustment." I assume >>>manual adjustment is for 'non-normal wear.' >>> >>>2. >>>Googling for {star wheel adjuster} or similar words on adjusting rear brakes >>>turned up some posts that talked about limitations in the self-adjusting >>>mechanism. IIRC someone (or two) claimed that you had to drive in reverse, >>>brake, then drive forward a little and do this repeatedly (to get enough >>>turns >>>on the star wheel adjuster) to get a good adjustment. The persons(s) said it >>>was >>>easier and more reliable to do the adjustment manually. >>> >>>3. >>>_____ >>>On vehicles with rear drum brakes, mis-adjusted brake shoes can cause a >>>"long" >>>pedal and reduced braking, giving the illusion of air in the lines. If you're >>>trying to track down such a problem, adjust the rear brakes and test drive >>>the >>>car before bleeding the system. >>>--from Chilton's and Autozone, "Bleeding the Brake System," typed in bold, >>>right >>>before the first step for bleeding. >>>_____ >>> >>>I am a bit concerned I overtightened the shoes such that they are too close >>>to >>>the drums. Guess this will just wear the shoes quicker. Also, I can't say I'm >>>100% confident the self-adjusting lever is doing its job. It seems a flimsy >>>design that doesn't hold the star wheel all that securely, so as to achieve >>>only >>>the one-way rotation that should occur as the brake shoes wear. >>> >>>OTOH, the star wheel adjuster wasn't that easy to turn in either direction. >>>(I >>>pulled the lever out a little to rotate the star wheel adjuster such that the >>>shoes didn't press against the drum, as I was experimenting.) >>> >>>I did put a couple of drops of "PB Blaster" on the star wheel adjuster-bolt >>>threads, where it mates to the clevises, as best I could, trying to minimize >>>the >>>stuff getting onto anything else. This seemed to help. >>> >>>Again, this is the first time I've ever personally (1) bled, and ultimately >>>effectively flushed, the brake system and (2) removed the rear drums and >>>"brake >>>cleanered" the rear brakes' guts. I will certainly consider further >>>commentary >>>on my approach here. >> >>i know it's frequently cited here, and it's not your fault, but imo, >>reversing to adjust the rear drums is in the same league as using the >>emergency brakes to adjust them - complete rubbish. anyone that's >>watched the adjuster mechanism in action with the drum removed can >>easily see how it works - there's no black magic or art involved - they >>are designed to self-adjust in normal operation. > > > Not true as a general statement. I have personally owned cars that were > specifically designed to only adjust the brakes when stopping in reverse > (anything GM from the 60s & 70s), and I have personally owned cars that only > moved the adjuster when the parking brake was set. I have also owned cars > with rear drum brakes that maintain adjustment in normal usage ('02 > Pathfinder). Some don't even have an adjusting wheel, they use a sliding > wedge. Calling it all rubbish is rubbish. You have to look at the > mechanism used by the specific manufacturer to correctly answer this > question. fair enough, but can i please be forgiven for responding to a civic question on a honda forum? parking/reversing adjustment for a civic /is/ rubbish... > > > >>that said however, adjustment /does/ depend on the adjuster wheel being >>free to rotate. if it's rusted, clogged or screwed in too tight [say >>after new shoes have been fitted], it won't work and the assembly needs >>to be stripped down, cleaned, lubed & reassembled. i also find that a >>little manual pre-adjustment helps get the ball rolling. the adjuster >>can then be heard clicking on release after each time the brake pedal >>has been pressed hard. just keep operating the brake until the clicking >>stops. then you should have a great feeling pedal and good brakes. >> >> >> > > |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
On 7/13/04 7:59 AM, in article n-idnRGclps_QW7dRVn_iw@comcast.com, "jim
beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote: > E. Meyer wrote: >> On 7/13/04 12:08 AM, in article FLSdnTjBtsSi827dRVn-gw@comcast.com, "jim >> beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote: >> >> >>> Caroline wrote: >>> >>>> "George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote >>>> >>>> >>>>> <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I googled and someone wrote about his/her trailer brakes and how they >>>>>> have >>>>>> little rubber plugs that have to be removed to get to the "star wheel >>>> >>>> adjuster." >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Majestic's site indicated the existence of such an "adjuster plug" on the >>>> >>>> rear >>>> >>>> >>>>>> brakes (as well as the adjuster). Someone else's Usenet post commented >>>>>> about >>>> >>>> how >>>> >>>> >>>>>> the plug was on the inboard side of the brake backing plate. Someone else >>>> >>>> said >>>> >>>> >>>>>> to use a flashlight to see it. >>>>>> >>>>>> All true. >>>>>> >>>>>> The plug is at about the 1 o'clock or 11'o'clock position (depending on >>>>>> the >>>>>> car's side) on the inboard side of the drum brake's backing plate. If one >>>> >>>> really >>>> >>>> >>>>>> wants to see the star adjuster well, skip the flashlight and take off the >>>> >>>> drum. >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Overall, I had more luck making the adjustment with the drum off than >>>>>> through >>>>>> the plug hole. Of course, one has to keep fitting the drum over the shoes >>>> >>>> etc. >>>> >>>> >>>>>> to see how the fit is. >>>>>> >>>>>> The star adjuster wheel itself is just a little 1/2-inch diameter or so >>>>>> gear >>>> >>>> or >>>> >>>> >>>>>> circular ratchet. >>>>> >>>>> I thought that star wheel, in between the two clevis pins, was supposed to >>>>> be turned by the self-adjusting lever?? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> True. For example: >>>> _____ >>>> Most modern drum brakes are designed to self-adjust during application when >>>> the >>>> vehicle is moving in reverse. This motion causes both shoes to rotate very >>>> slightly with the drum, rocking an adjusting lever. The self-adjusters are >>>> only >>>> intended to compensate for normal wear. Although the adjustment is >>>> "automatic," >>>> there is a definite method to actuate the self-adjuster, which is done >>>> during >>>> normal driving. Driving the vehicle in reverse and applying the brakes >>>> usually >>>> activates the automatic adjusters. If the brake pedal was low, you should >>>> be >>>> able to feel an increase in the height of the brake pedal. >>>> -- from Chilton's and Autozone's site for circa 1991 Civics, "Brake >>>> Operating >>>> System: General Description" >>>> _____ >>>> >>>> In addition, as I'm sure you're aware but for the record, parts drawings >>>> identify the "self-adjuster lever" etc. that operates the star wheel >>>> adjuster. >>>> >>>> But also -- >>>> >>>> 1. >>>> Chilton's and Autozone give a procedure for manual adjustment of the rear >>>> brakes. It's under the "Adjustments: Rear Drum Brake Adjustment." I assume >>>> manual adjustment is for 'non-normal wear.' >>>> >>>> 2. >>>> Googling for {star wheel adjuster} or similar words on adjusting rear >>>> brakes >>>> turned up some posts that talked about limitations in the self-adjusting >>>> mechanism. IIRC someone (or two) claimed that you had to drive in reverse, >>>> brake, then drive forward a little and do this repeatedly (to get enough >>>> turns >>>> on the star wheel adjuster) to get a good adjustment. The persons(s) said >>>> it >>>> was >>>> easier and more reliable to do the adjustment manually. >>>> >>>> 3. >>>> _____ >>>> On vehicles with rear drum brakes, mis-adjusted brake shoes can cause a >>>> "long" >>>> pedal and reduced braking, giving the illusion of air in the lines. If >>>> you're >>>> trying to track down such a problem, adjust the rear brakes and test drive >>>> the >>>> car before bleeding the system. >>>> --from Chilton's and Autozone, "Bleeding the Brake System," typed in bold, >>>> right >>>> before the first step for bleeding. >>>> _____ >>>> >>>> I am a bit concerned I overtightened the shoes such that they are too close >>>> to >>>> the drums. Guess this will just wear the shoes quicker. Also, I can't say >>>> I'm >>>> 100% confident the self-adjusting lever is doing its job. It seems a flimsy >>>> design that doesn't hold the star wheel all that securely, so as to achieve >>>> only >>>> the one-way rotation that should occur as the brake shoes wear. >>>> >>>> OTOH, the star wheel adjuster wasn't that easy to turn in either direction. >>>> (I >>>> pulled the lever out a little to rotate the star wheel adjuster such that >>>> the >>>> shoes didn't press against the drum, as I was experimenting.) >>>> >>>> I did put a couple of drops of "PB Blaster" on the star wheel adjuster-bolt >>>> threads, where it mates to the clevises, as best I could, trying to >>>> minimize >>>> the >>>> stuff getting onto anything else. This seemed to help. >>>> >>>> Again, this is the first time I've ever personally (1) bled, and ultimately >>>> effectively flushed, the brake system and (2) removed the rear drums and >>>> "brake >>>> cleanered" the rear brakes' guts. I will certainly consider further >>>> commentary >>>> on my approach here. >>> >>> i know it's frequently cited here, and it's not your fault, but imo, >>> reversing to adjust the rear drums is in the same league as using the >>> emergency brakes to adjust them - complete rubbish. anyone that's >>> watched the adjuster mechanism in action with the drum removed can >>> easily see how it works - there's no black magic or art involved - they >>> are designed to self-adjust in normal operation. >> >> >> Not true as a general statement. I have personally owned cars that were >> specifically designed to only adjust the brakes when stopping in reverse >> (anything GM from the 60s & 70s), and I have personally owned cars that only >> moved the adjuster when the parking brake was set. I have also owned cars >> with rear drum brakes that maintain adjustment in normal usage ('02 >> Pathfinder). Some don't even have an adjusting wheel, they use a sliding >> wedge. Calling it all rubbish is rubbish. You have to look at the >> mechanism used by the specific manufacturer to correctly answer this >> question. > > fair enough, but can i please be forgiven for responding to a civic > question on a honda forum? parking/reversing adjustment for a civic > /is/ rubbish... > I'll buy that. >> >> >> >>> that said however, adjustment /does/ depend on the adjuster wheel being >>> free to rotate. if it's rusted, clogged or screwed in too tight [say >>> after new shoes have been fitted], it won't work and the assembly needs >>> to be stripped down, cleaned, lubed & reassembled. i also find that a >>> little manual pre-adjustment helps get the ball rolling. the adjuster >>> can then be heard clicking on release after each time the brake pedal >>> has been pressed hard. just keep operating the brake until the clicking >>> stops. then you should have a great feeling pedal and good brakes. >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote
> <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote: > >"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote snip--interested brake-rebuilding people should read the thread > >> I thought that star wheel, in between the two clevis pins, was supposed to > >> be turned by the self-adjusting lever?? snip > >But also -- > > > >1. > >Chilton's and Autozone give a procedure for manual adjustment of the rear > >brakes. It's under the "Adjustments: Rear Drum Brake Adjustment." I assume > >manual adjustment is for 'non-normal wear.' > > Both of above sound like Chilton's "generic advice" again.:-( > >2. > >Googling for {star wheel adjuster} or similar words on adjusting rear brakes > >turned up some posts that talked about limitations in the self-adjusting > >mechanism. IIRC someone (or two) claimed that you had to drive in reverse, > >brake, then drive forward a little and do this repeatedly (to get enough turns > >on the star wheel adjuster) to get a good adjustment. The persons(s) said it was > >easier and more reliable to do the adjustment manually. > > The Honda/Helm manual for a '90 Civic describes the procedure for changing > rear brake shoes and the final step says to press the brake pedal to set > the self-adjusting mechanism. I'm not sure exactly what you mean about "generic advice." The UK sites manuals at http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/workshopmanuals2.html are presumably identical to Helm. These days I have been checking both the UK site (= Helm) and Chilton's. Sometimes the Chilton's manual is more specific and accurate; sometimes the UK site is. Sometimes the wording is identical in both. For example, in another thread recently I noted that the UK site manual had the exact same words as Chilton's and Autozone's for a description of the ECU (under PGM-FI operation). I get the feeling that Chilton's somehow legally draws from the manufacturer's service manuals to the same extent as Helm. Autozone states somewhere at its site that it has licensing agreements with Haynes and Chilton, so the frequent Chilton-identical wording at it is no surprise. But on the subject of brake adjustments, from what I can tell, there do appear to be significant differences between Chilton's/Autozone and Helm/UK site. So I note for the archive that, from what I could see, none of the manuals at the UK site indicate a procedure for adjusting the rear drum brakes like the one in Chilton's and at Autozone. I gather you too searched Helm and found only the point you cite above on this subject. Likewise, the UK site manual for 1995-1997 Civics states "Depress the brake pedal several times to set the self-adjusting brake" as one of its final steps in re-assembling the brake shoes. I'm more inclined to believe Chilton's and Autozone reflect reality better on this point. Namely, the adjuster gets crudded up pretty easily, so one has to get in there and make the adjustment by hand. Jim and you both seem to agree that this makes the self-adjustment feature somewhat suspect. Or the manuals should maybe emphasize more, "Ya gotta clean the mechanism up every so often." Guess one could and should read that into the Helm manuals. Maybe Chilton's/Autozone's instructions go a bit more toward this. In addition, I do have to wonder why there is this plugged port on many cars (and certainly 1991 Civics) that by design is dedicated to manually adjusting the star wheel adjuster. As I suggested before, manual adjustment is for "non-normal wear"? But that doesn't really make sense. The shoes should wear gradually. I see no reason why, barring the decrepitness of aged parts, including a loss of spring in the adjuster "lever," the self-adjuster shouldn't work fine. I am a little tempted to go back into my rear drum brakes and disassemble enough so I can thoroughly PB blaster the adjuster and where it mates with the clevis pins, then maybe anti-seize these. Maybe replace the lever mechanism, if possible. I continue to appreciate the improvement in how the brake pedal feels but also remain a bit concerned that a perhaps "too tightly adjusted shoe" is fooling me into thinking I don't have to bleed more air. Then too there is such a thing as psychological "overconcern" and perfectionist thinking... More experience, and as always continuing to read here, over time will tell me more, I reckon. snip > >I am a bit concerned I overtightened the shoes such that they are too close to > >the drums. Guess this will just wear the shoes quicker. Also, I can't say I'm > >100% confident the self-adjusting lever is doing its job. It seems a flimsy > >design that doesn't hold the star wheel all that securely, so as to achieve only > >the one-way rotation that should occur as the brake shoes wear. > > Yeah I've never been convinced that a self-adjusting mechanism, as > implemented, can work effectively in the environment it lives in after a > few years of lubricant burn-off, clag and corrosion build-up. If there's > any drag, it's easy to check the drum temps after a drive. Is this just a rough feel kind of test, based on experience? If not, your elaboration is welcome. snip > At least the Honda drums are easy to get off - I recall my Beetles which > needed a 250ft-lb torque wrench to get the rear axle nut off. Ohmylord. Naturally all the travails of folks here with the much lower torqued crank pulley bolts come to mind. I guess it's easier to figure a way to hold the Beetle wheel hub steady than the Honda pulley, though, when applying the 250 ft-lbs of torque. |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:42:44 GMT, "Caroline"
<caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote: >"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote >> <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote: >> >"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote >snip--interested brake-rebuilding people should read the thread >> >> I thought that star wheel, in between the two clevis pins, was supposed to >> >> be turned by the self-adjusting lever?? >snip > >> >But also -- >> > >> >1. >> >Chilton's and Autozone give a procedure for manual adjustment of the rear >> >brakes. It's under the "Adjustments: Rear Drum Brake Adjustment." I assume >> >manual adjustment is for 'non-normal wear.' >> >> Both of above sound like Chilton's "generic advice" again.:-( > >> >2. >> >Googling for {star wheel adjuster} or similar words on adjusting rear brakes >> >turned up some posts that talked about limitations in the self-adjusting >> >mechanism. IIRC someone (or two) claimed that you had to drive in reverse, >> >brake, then drive forward a little and do this repeatedly (to get enough >turns >> >on the star wheel adjuster) to get a good adjustment. The persons(s) said it >was >> >easier and more reliable to do the adjustment manually. >> >> The Honda/Helm manual for a '90 Civic describes the procedure for changing >> rear brake shoes and the final step says to press the brake pedal to set >> the self-adjusting mechanism. > >I'm not sure exactly what you mean about "generic advice." The UK sites manuals >at >http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/workshopmanuals2.html are presumably identical to >Helm. Not sure which manual you are referencing at the UK site but by "generic", I mean the thing about the reverse to set the self-adjuster. Manual adjustment when the self-adjuster can't do its job is in the common sense category.:-) Whether to be concerned about the lack of self-adjustment and when to attempt correction is a judgement call, depending on how much it annoys. > These days I have been checking both the UK site (= Helm) and Chilton's. >Sometimes the Chilton's manual is more specific and accurate; sometimes the UK >site is. Sometimes the wording is identical in both. For example, in another >thread recently I noted that the UK site manual had the exact same words as >Chilton's and Autozone's for a description of the ECU (under PGM-FI operation). > >I get the feeling that Chilton's somehow legally draws from the manufacturer's >service manuals to the same extent as Helm. Autozone states somewhere at its >site that it has licensing agreements with Haynes and Chilton, so the frequent >Chilton-identical wording at it is no surprise. I haven't looked at a recent Chilton's manual but the ones I bought years ago, had a very few specific things which were specific to the car the manual was addressing but lots of filler material which was common to all their manuals. The coolant change section on air-cooled Beetles was a classic. >But on the subject of brake adjustments, from what I can tell, there do appear >to be significant differences between Chilton's/Autozone and Helm/UK site. > >So I note for the archive that, from what I could see, none of the manuals at >the UK site indicate a procedure for adjusting the rear drum brakes like the one >in Chilton's and at Autozone. I gather you too searched Helm and found only the >point you cite above on this subject. Likewise, the UK site manual for 1995-1997 >Civics states "Depress the brake pedal several times to set the self-adjusting >brake" as one of its final steps in re-assembling the brake shoes. I have the '90 Civic Helm manual. >I'm more inclined to believe Chilton's and Autozone reflect reality better on >this point. Namely, the adjuster gets crudded up pretty easily, so one has to >get in there and make the adjustment by hand. Jim and you both seem to agree >that this makes the self-adjustment feature somewhat suspect. Or the manuals >should maybe emphasize more, "Ya gotta clean the mechanism up every so often." >Guess one could and should read that into the Helm manuals. Maybe >Chilton's/Autozone's instructions go a bit more toward this. > >In addition, I do have to wonder why there is this plugged port on many cars >(and certainly 1991 Civics) that by design is dedicated to manually adjusting >the star wheel adjuster. As I suggested before, manual adjustment is for >"non-normal wear"? But that doesn't really make sense. The shoes should wear >gradually. I see no reason why, barring the decrepitness of aged parts, >including a loss of spring in the adjuster "lever," the self-adjuster shouldn't >work fine. > >I am a little tempted to go back into my rear drum brakes and disassemble enough >so I can thoroughly PB blaster the adjuster and where it mates with the clevis >pins, then maybe anti-seize these. Maybe replace the lever mechanism, if >possible. The Blaster will pronbably do a good job of releasing any binding due to corrosion etc. The '90 Civic manual strangely doesn't mention anywhere which grease to use on the rear drum brake mechanism though it does mention greasing all sliding parts; for the front brakes it specifies silicone grease everywhere... though the silicone grease I've found in auto-parts stores always seems much too thin for the job. When I used to work in labs, we had a nice thick silicone grease which would be perfect for the job. I believe that later Helm/Honda manuals often specify a high-temp urea grease for sliding parts of brake mechanisms. >I continue to appreciate the improvement in how the brake pedal feels but also >remain a bit concerned that a perhaps "too tightly adjusted shoe" is fooling me >into thinking I don't have to bleed more air. Then too there is such a thing as >psychological "overconcern" and perfectionist thinking... > >More experience, and as always continuing to read here, over time will tell me >more, I reckon. > >snip >> >I am a bit concerned I overtightened the shoes such that they are too close >to >> >the drums. Guess this will just wear the shoes quicker. Also, I can't say I'm >> >100% confident the self-adjusting lever is doing its job. It seems a flimsy >> >design that doesn't hold the star wheel all that securely, so as to achieve >only >> >the one-way rotation that should occur as the brake shoes wear. >> >> Yeah I've never been convinced that a self-adjusting mechanism, as >> implemented, can work effectively in the environment it lives in after a >> few years of lubricant burn-off, clag and corrosion build-up. If there's >> any drag, it's easy to check the drum temps after a drive. > >Is this just a rough feel kind of test, based on experience? If not, your >elaboration is welcome. If you suspect a binding brake it's a quick check. If they're only warm there's nothing to worry about. Rgds, George Macdonald "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me?? |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote
> <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote: > >I'm not sure exactly what you mean about "generic advice." The UK sites manuals > >at > >http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/workshopmanuals2.html are presumably identical to > >Helm. > > Not sure which manual you are referencing at the UK site All of them. They're all put out by Honda, or so I think several of us more or less agreed in an earlier thread a few weeks ago. > but by "generic", > I mean the thing about the reverse to set the self-adjuster. Manual > adjustment when the self-adjuster can't do its job is in the common sense > category.:-) I see... ;-) > Whether to be concerned about the lack of self-adjustment and > when to attempt correction is a judgement call, depending on how much it > annoys. Okay. snip > >I get the feeling that Chilton's somehow legally draws from the manufacturer's > >service manuals to the same extent as Helm. Autozone states somewhere at its > >site that it has licensing agreements with Haynes and Chilton, so the frequent > >Chilton-identical wording at it is no surprise. > > I haven't looked at a recent Chilton's manual but the ones I bought years > ago, had a very few specific things which were specific to the car the > manual was addressing but lots of filler material which was common to all > their manuals. Before reading this post, I had a suspicion that Chilton's approach has changed a lot, too. This is because of a vague recollection of reading car manuals many years ago, (possibly pre-dating Helm?). Since the 1980s, almost every decent public library I've visited has had these huge, around 4-inch thick "Chilton Import Car, 1989" or "Chilton Domestic Car, 1985" etc. manuals, covering many makes, section by section. IIRC they seemed somewhat generic. But I didn't use them much, so I could be wrong. I think Chilton still puts those 4-inch thick manuals out, but they also print indvidual manuals that seem to me are much more narrowly focused. Again, just an, um, youthful impression. I realize you've been reading manuals way longer than I. Maybe not the latest Chilton's though? > The coolant change section on air-cooled Beetles was a > classic. > > >But on the subject of brake adjustments, from what I can tell, there do appear > >to be significant differences between Chilton's/Autozone and Helm/UK site. > > > >So I note for the archive that, from what I could see, none of the manuals at > >the UK site indicate a procedure for adjusting the rear drum brakes like the one > >in Chilton's and at Autozone. I gather you too searched Helm and found only the > >point you cite above on this subject. Likewise, the UK site manual for 1995-1997 > >Civics states "Depress the brake pedal several times to set the self-adjusting > >brake" as one of its final steps in re-assembling the brake shoes. > > I have the '90 Civic Helm manual. The UK site's manuals I believe say the same thing for any Honda from about 1984-1997 that has drum brakes. snip > >I am a little tempted to go back into my rear drum brakes and disassemble enough > >so I can thoroughly PB blaster the adjuster and where it mates with the clevis > >pins, then maybe anti-seize these. Maybe replace the lever mechanism, if > >possible. > > The Blaster will pronbably do a good job of releasing any binding due to > corrosion etc. The '90 Civic manual strangely doesn't mention anywhere > which grease to use on the rear drum brake mechanism though it does mention > greasing all sliding parts; FWIW to anyone, Chilton's for 1984-1995 Civic/CRX/Del Sol says for the brake shoes: -cylinder grease on the pivot pin sliding surface -unspecified grease on the backing plate sliding surfaces (do not allow grease to contact brake linings) -unspecified grease on adjuster threads If I get into the drum brakes again, I'll probably just use the synthetic (silicone?) grease I bought at Autozone. It's red in color. I don't know what "cylinder grease" is. Chilton's has it being applied to the front disc brake piston boot, too. Like I posted to Jim, in the front I just used the red grease everywhere grease was specified. > for the front brakes it specifies silicone > grease everywhere... though the silicone grease I've found in auto-parts > stores always seems much too thin for the job. When I used to work in > labs, we had a nice thick silicone grease which would be perfect for the > job. I saw your posts of a few years ago about using dielectric grease, albeit ultimately with some concern that it was too light. I assume the dielectric grease is silicone-based, too, or you wouldn't have endorsed it then. Based on this, I actually did use dielectric grease for a few days on the front brakes. I had some handy and was still puzzling about the grease Jim was suggesting (which made sense; I just couldn't find anything locally that resembled it), what the manuals said, and what I was seeing at auto parts stores. So I threw the dielectric grease on the front caliper mounting pins for a few days during my "dry run" partial re-build. Then I considered the matter more. Several days later, the dielectric grease seemed to be fine--still in place, with the brakes working great. But once I bought the Autozone red caliper grease, I did note, as you did, that the consistency of the dielectric grease was lighter. Everything on the front brakes now has the red caliper grease. > I believe that later Helm/Honda manuals often specify a high-temp urea > grease for sliding parts of brake mechanisms. I think I'll revisit this two years from now at the next brake flush. Or whenever I hear odd noises from the brakes. snip > >> Yeah I've never been convinced that a self-adjusting mechanism, as > >> implemented, can work effectively in the environment it lives in after a > >> few years of lubricant burn-off, clag and corrosion build-up. If there's > >> any drag, it's easy to check the drum temps after a drive. > > > >Is this just a rough feel kind of test, based on experience? If not, your > >elaboration is welcome. > > If you suspect a binding brake it's a quick check. If they're only warm > there's nothing to worry about. Hm. I returned home tonight after ten-mile drive and put my hand on one of the drum backing plates. It was just hot enough to be a bit uncomfortable but cool enough that I could leave my hand there indefinitely without any injury. I think I'll do an inspection tomorrow. I want to figure out how that adjusting bolt/clevis ratchet mechanism works. By design, does it automatically back off under certain driving conditions? Or because of the ratchet, is the rotation only such that the shoes and drum move closer together, automatically providing for wear over time? In other words, if I did tighten the star wheel adjuster too much the other way, after some driving will it back off by itself? It actually seems like it has just a wee bit, based on the parking brake feel. BTW, I embarked on this latest maintenance because of a post of yours several months ago suggesting to I think someone else that a brake caliper rebuild is a good idea for a car such-and-such years and miles old. No regrets. I've learned a lot and have a lot more peace of mind knowing precisely the condition of my brakes. |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 05:34:36 GMT, "Caroline"
<caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote: >"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote <<snip>>> > I haven't looked at a recent Chilton's manual but the ones I bought years >> ago, had a very few specific things which were specific to the car the >> manual was addressing but lots of filler material which was common to all >> their manuals. > >Before reading this post, I had a suspicion that Chilton's approach has changed >a lot, too. This is because of a vague recollection of reading car manuals many >years ago, (possibly pre-dating Helm?). Since the 1980s, almost every decent >public library I've visited has had these huge, around 4-inch thick "Chilton >Import Car, 1989" or "Chilton Domestic Car, 1985" etc. manuals, covering many >makes, section by section. IIRC they seemed somewhat generic. But I didn't use >them much, so I could be wrong. > >I think Chilton still puts those 4-inch thick manuals out, but they also print >indvidual manuals that seem to me are much more narrowly focused. > >Again, just an, um, youthful impression. I realize you've been reading manuals >way longer than I. Maybe not the latest Chilton's though? I guess I'm still pissed that I paid for a sealed Chilton manual which didn't err, illuminate - the hard cover was worth more than any info contained within. IIRC Chilton bought up Haynes a few years back and Haynes manuals were a touch better so maybe there's been some consolidation of product lines. I cant lose my basic mistrust of Chiltons.<shrug> >snip >> >I am a little tempted to go back into my rear drum brakes and disassemble >enough >> >so I can thoroughly PB blaster the adjuster and where it mates with the >clevis >> >pins, then maybe anti-seize these. Maybe replace the lever mechanism, if >> >possible. >> >> The Blaster will pronbably do a good job of releasing any binding due to >> corrosion etc. The '90 Civic manual strangely doesn't mention anywhere >> which grease to use on the rear drum brake mechanism though it does mention >> greasing all sliding parts; > >FWIW to anyone, Chilton's for 1984-1995 Civic/CRX/Del Sol says for the brake >shoes: > >-cylinder grease on the pivot pin sliding surface > >-unspecified grease on the backing plate sliding surfaces (do not allow grease >to contact brake linings) > >-unspecified grease on adjuster threads > >If I get into the drum brakes again, I'll probably just use the synthetic >(silicone?) grease I bought at Autozone. It's red in color. > >I don't know what "cylinder grease" is. Chilton's has it being applied to the >front disc brake piston boot, too. Like I posted to Jim, in the front I just >used the red grease everywhere grease was specified. I believe cylinder grease is silicone. I haven't seen the red stuff but I have some Permatex blue stuff -- very sticky, tacky -- which is good for caliper pins: very high temp and no solids in it which could cause it to cake with age. I wouldn't use that sticky stuff on rubber boots, where I think silicone is the only applicable grease. BTW I also disapprove of the SilGlyde which some people have recommended - it has a lot of castor oil in it which turns to gummy lacquer quite easily with heat. >> for the front brakes it specifies silicone >> grease everywhere... though the silicone grease I've found in auto-parts >> stores always seems much too thin for the job. When I used to work in >> labs, we had a nice thick silicone grease which would be perfect for the >> job. > >I saw your posts of a few years ago about using dielectric grease, albeit >ultimately with some concern that it was too light. I assume the dielectric >grease is silicone-based, too, or you wouldn't have endorsed it then. > >Based on this, I actually did use dielectric grease for a few days on the front >brakes. I had some handy and was still puzzling about the grease Jim was >suggesting (which made sense; I just couldn't find anything locally that >resembled it), what the manuals said, and what I was seeing at auto parts >stores. So I threw the dielectric grease on the front caliper mounting pins for >a few days during my "dry run" partial re-build. Then I considered the matter >more. That dielectric grease was labeled as such on the cardboard of the bubble pack; on the tube it actually said it was applicable for brakes... and yes it is silicone grease. I wish I knew someone who worked in a lab.:-) >Several days later, the dielectric grease seemed to be fine--still in place, >with the brakes working great. But once I bought the Autozone red caliper >grease, I did note, as you did, that the consistency of the dielectric grease >was lighter. Everything on the front brakes now has the red caliper grease. > >> I believe that later Helm/Honda manuals often specify a high-temp urea >> grease for sliding parts of brake mechanisms. > >I think I'll revisit this two years from now at the next brake flush. > >Or whenever I hear odd noises from the brakes. > >snip >> >> Yeah I've never been convinced that a self-adjusting mechanism, as >> >> implemented, can work effectively in the environment it lives in after a >> >> few years of lubricant burn-off, clag and corrosion build-up. If there's >> >> any drag, it's easy to check the drum temps after a drive. >> > >> >Is this just a rough feel kind of test, based on experience? If not, your >> >elaboration is welcome. >> >> If you suspect a binding brake it's a quick check. If they're only warm >> there's nothing to worry about. > >Hm. I returned home tonight after ten-mile drive and put my hand on one of the >drum backing plates. It was just hot enough to be a bit uncomfortable but cool >enough that I could leave my hand there indefinitely without any injury. I think >I'll do an inspection tomorrow. I want to figure out how that adjusting >bolt/clevis ratchet mechanism works. By design, does it automatically back off >under certain driving conditions? Or because of the ratchet, is the rotation >only such that the shoes and drum move closer together, automatically providing >for wear over time? > >In other words, if I did tighten the star wheel adjuster too much the other way, >after some driving will it back off by itself? I don't think it backs off - it just allows any excessive movement of the shoes on braking to translate to the lever racheting the star wheel. >It actually seems like it has just a wee bit, based on the parking brake feel. > >BTW, I embarked on this latest maintenance because of a post of yours several >months ago suggesting to I think someone else that a brake caliper rebuild is a >good idea for a car such-and-such years and miles old. No regrets. I've learned >a lot and have a lot more peace of mind knowing precisely the condition of my >brakes. It *does* depend on where you live - in the frost belt, especially rear calipers/rotors really get in a horrible mess; drums are a little better protected. Rgds, George Macdonald "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me?? |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote
> <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote: snip [I'm not sure what the relation between Haynes and Chilton is. My sense is that Haynes is not nearly as complete as Chilton's, based on just a few perusals of Haynes manuals in the last few years.] > >If I get into the drum brakes again, I'll probably just use the synthetic > >(silicone?) grease I bought at Autozone. It's red in color. > > > >I don't know what "cylinder grease" is. Chilton's has it being applied to the > >front disc brake piston boot, too. Like I posted to Jim, in the front I just > >used the red grease everywhere grease was specified. > > I believe cylinder grease is silicone. Chilton front brake caliper illustrations have a legend for two different grease symbols: One grease symbol = "brake cylinder grease (P/N 08733-B020E) or equivalent rubbber grease" Second grease symbol = "Silicone grease" Best I can figure is that Chilton's is out of synch with the latest grease technology. > I haven't seen the red stuff but I > have some Permatex blue stuff -- very sticky, tacky -- which is good for > caliper pins: very high temp and no solids in it which could cause it to > cake with age. Sounds like what Jim suggested and which, contrary to what I said earlier, is readily available at places like Autozone. http://www.permatex.com/auto/autouc....item&item_no=2 0355 I only found the little packets (no bottles) at about $5 a pop. It seemed green in color to me, but maybe color blindness effects are kicking in here. For the record, the $2 packet of red-colored grease I bought at Autozone says, "Disc Brake Caliper Lube, a high performance 100% synthetic lubricant formulated for the most adverse brake conditions. Maximum protection for caliper pins, sleeve, bushings and pistons. Exceptional operating range -35 F to 400 F. Excellent resistant to water, rust, and corrosion." > I wouldn't use that sticky stuff on rubber boots, where I > think silicone is the only applicable grease. BTW I also disapprove of the > SilGlyde which some people have recommended - it has a lot of castor oil in > it which turns to gummy lacquer quite easily with heat. I think I saw something that said it had castor oil and turned up my nose at it, only because castor oil isn't synthetic nor silicone. > >> for the front brakes it specifies silicone > >> grease everywhere... though the silicone grease I've found in auto-parts > >> stores always seems much too thin for the job. When I used to work in > >> labs, we had a nice thick silicone grease which would be perfect for the > >> job. > > > >I saw your posts of a few years ago about using dielectric grease, albeit > >ultimately with some concern that it was too light. I assume the dielectric > >grease is silicone-based, too, or you wouldn't have endorsed it then. > > > >Based on this, I actually did use dielectric grease for a few days on the front > >brakes. I had some handy and was still puzzling about the grease Jim was > >suggesting (which made sense; I just couldn't find anything locally that > >resembled it), what the manuals said, and what I was seeing at auto parts > >stores. So I threw the dielectric grease on the front caliper mounting pins for > >a few days during my "dry run" partial re-build. Then I considered the matter > >more. > > That dielectric grease was labeled as such on the cardboard of the bubble > pack; on the tube it actually said it was applicable for brakes... and yes > it is silicone grease. I wish I knew someone who worked in a lab.:-) Yes, I looked for this. The info on the "Permatex dielectric tune-up grease" I have currently does not say anything about being fine for brakes. I think a few years ago you named some other manufacturer's dielectric grease, though. I'm not sweating it. snip > > I want to figure out how that adjusting > >bolt/clevis ratchet mechanism works. By design, does it automatically back off > >under certain driving conditions? Or because of the ratchet, is the rotation > >only such that the shoes and drum move closer together, automatically providing > >for wear over time? > > > >In other words, if I did tighten the star wheel adjuster too much the other way, > >after some driving will it back off by itself? > > I don't think it backs off - it just allows any excessive movement of the > shoes on braking to translate to the lever racheting the star wheel. Okay. > >It actually seems like it has just a wee bit, based on the parking brake feel. > > > >BTW, I embarked on this latest maintenance because of a post of yours several > >months ago suggesting to I think someone else that a brake caliper rebuild is a > >good idea for a car such-and-such years and miles old. No regrets. I've learned > >a lot and have a lot more peace of mind knowing precisely the condition of my > >brakes. > > It *does* depend on where you live - in the frost belt, especially rear > calipers/rotors really get in a horrible mess; drums are a little better > protected. I understand. I felt entirely justified, having drove the car for over half its life in the northern U.S. through a lot of snow and rain and not always garaged. It does drive smoother and quieter after the brake rebuild job. Not a whole lot of difference, but enough to be noticeable, in my estimation. |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
"Rex B" <NOSPAMrex@REMOVEtxol.net> wrote
> On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 18:33:48 GMT, jim beam <uce@ftc.gov> wrote: > ||if you need to, you can replace the rear cylinders without removing the > ||shoe assembly. > || > ||if you want to tackle the rear shoes, that's not such a big deal. > ||despite the fact that it's often sworn at as being difficult to > ||reassemble, i promise, it can be done without brute force, skinned > ||knuckles and special tools. simply attach the brake cable, screw the > ||adjuster bar all the way back in, fit the main tension spring, and you > ||can then "puzzle" that essembly back into position in one piece. then > ||you can fit the lower spring by hand and puzzle that into position also. > > The key to working on rear drums is to remove both drums, hose them off to get > rid of the dust, then work on one side at a time. That way you can look at the > other side if you get confused. With the excellent incentive above and my 'ongoing pursuit of brake perfection,' I dis-assembled one drum brake today almost completely. I only wanted to get at the star wheel adjuster bolt and clevises to clean them up and apply some grease. I did successfully fully remove these, PB Blastered the threads, and then applied a very thin coat of the red synthetic grease. Getting it back together was a bit tricky as implied above. A combination of the Chilton instructions, a pretty decent illustration in Chilton's, and ultimately checking the other side's assembled drum brake as needed, as Rex said, got it back together. Test drive: Sat. Now I can replace brake shoes... that is, at least my car's. As the kids say: Cool. :-) |
Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:15:11 GMT, "Caroline"
<caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote: >"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote >> <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote: >snip [I'm not sure what the relation between Haynes and Chilton is. My sense is >that Haynes is not nearly as complete as Chilton's, based on just a few perusals >of Haynes manuals in the last few years.] >> >If I get into the drum brakes again, I'll probably just use the synthetic >> >(silicone?) grease I bought at Autozone. It's red in color. >> > >> >I don't know what "cylinder grease" is. Chilton's has it being applied to the >> >front disc brake piston boot, too. Like I posted to Jim, in the front I just >> >used the red grease everywhere grease was specified. >> >> I believe cylinder grease is silicone. > >Chilton front brake caliper illustrations have a legend for two different grease >symbols: Yep but if you look at the start of the maintenance section, where lubricants/fluids are specified, there's no mention of special grease for brake boots - just silicone. >One grease symbol = "brake cylinder grease (P/N 08733-B020E) or equivalent >rubbber grease" That's a Honda part number -- mentioned in one place in my Helm/Honda 2K Accord manual for drum brake sliding surfaces -- but I've no idea what kind of grease it is. My bet: ask for it at a Honda parts dept. and they'll say "the guys just use silicone or urea [choose one] for that". If you insist, you'll get the "who's the looney" routine. >Second grease symbol = "Silicone grease" > >Best I can figure is that Chilton's is out of synch with the latest grease >technology. Looks like they're being led by the nose by the Helm manual.:-) Honda used to recommend silicone everywhere so I don't think you can go far wrong with it. >> I haven't seen the red stuff but I >> have some Permatex blue stuff -- very sticky, tacky -- which is good for >> caliper pins: very high temp and no solids in it which could cause it to >> cake with age. > >Sounds like what Jim suggested and which, contrary to what I said earlier, is >readily available at places like Autozone. >http://www.permatex.com/auto/autouc....item&item_no=2 >0355 > >I only found the little packets (no bottles) at about $5 a pop. > >It seemed green in color to me, but maybe color blindness effects are kicking in >here. Yep it's green. I just checked and I'd made a mistake there - the blue stuff is Versachem's version of a similar product. I also have a jar of Permatex stuff, which has a brush attached to inside the lid, which is mauve... or it's changing color with age.:-) I dunno - every time I do a brake job I go get the "stuff" and whether it's forgetfulness or just the hope that I might find a "better widget", I often end up with err, duplicates.:-) >For the record, the $2 packet of red-colored grease I bought at Autozone says, >"Disc Brake Caliper Lube, a high performance 100% synthetic lubricant formulated >for the most adverse brake conditions. Maximum protection for caliper pins, >sleeve, bushings and pistons. Exceptional operating range -35 F to 400 F. >Excellent resistant to water, rust, and corrosion." Sounds similar to the Permatex stuff but it mentions "does not harm rubber" or some such thing. In general the synthetic greases do not harm rubber. >> I wouldn't use that sticky stuff on rubber boots, where I >> think silicone is the only applicable grease. BTW I also disapprove of the >> SilGlyde which some people have recommended - it has a lot of castor oil in >> it which turns to gummy lacquer quite easily with heat. > >I think I saw something that said it had castor oil and turned up my nose at it, >only because castor oil isn't synthetic nor silicone. The MSDS is here: http://www.imperialinc.com/msds0075150.shtml - 30-45% castor oil plus a synthetic lube... a high %age and as I said it's not very stable under oxidation with heat. >> >> for the front brakes it specifies silicone >> >> grease everywhere... though the silicone grease I've found in auto-parts >> >> stores always seems much too thin for the job. When I used to work in >> >> labs, we had a nice thick silicone grease which would be perfect for the >> >> job. >> > >> >I saw your posts of a few years ago about using dielectric grease, albeit >> >ultimately with some concern that it was too light. I assume the dielectric >> >grease is silicone-based, too, or you wouldn't have endorsed it then. >> > >> >Based on this, I actually did use dielectric grease for a few days on the >front >> >brakes. I had some handy and was still puzzling about the grease Jim was >> >suggesting (which made sense; I just couldn't find anything locally that >> >resembled it), what the manuals said, and what I was seeing at auto parts >> >stores. So I threw the dielectric grease on the front caliper mounting pins >for >> >a few days during my "dry run" partial re-build. Then I considered the matter >> >more. >> >> That dielectric grease was labeled as such on the cardboard of the bubble >> pack; on the tube it actually said it was applicable for brakes... and yes >> it is silicone grease. I wish I knew someone who worked in a lab.:-) > >Yes, I looked for this. The info on the "Permatex dielectric tune-up grease" I >have currently does not say anything about being fine for brakes. > >I think a few years ago you named some other manufacturer's dielectric grease, >though. Yes, the Versachem stuff, which is sold at Advance Auto-Parts... around here anyway but those used to be Kar Parts stores which were sold off recently. In fact I have two Versachem bubble packs - one labeled Spark Plug grease/di-electric, the other Silicone Brake Grease - with the same tube of "stuff" in them.:-) <<snip>> Rgds, George Macdonald "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me?? |
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