Caroline

My 91 Civic LX's front brake calipers are the originals, with 153k miles on
them. Most of those miles were in northern U.S., snowy climates. Everything's
working fine, but given the age of the car, I am being pre-emptive. Right now I
want to rebuild the front brake calipers. I have replaced the front brake pads
twice now without difficulty.

My Chilton's manual and the Autozone site have the procedure for "Brake Caliper
Overhaul." The procedure says to replace the following (see drawing
http://tinyurl.com/3hy6k for item numbers):

item 3 = piston boot
item 6 = piston seal
item 7 = boot clip or "boot ring"
item 15 = sleeve boot

For my car, Autozone sells

1. a "brake caliper kit" for $2.99 (contains 3, 6, and 7 above?)
2. a "caliper bushing/pin kit" for $12.99 (contains 15 and more above?)

The Autozone site doesn't say what these kits include. I will be calling them to
try to get this information, but for now--

Has anyone rebuilt their front brake calipers using a kit from Autozone? If so,
what did the kit contain?

Also, who else might sell a caliper rebuild kit?

Lastly, what are criteria to use to decide whether to skip the re-build and
instead buy remanufactured calipers?

Rex B

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:38:31 GMT, "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net>
wrote:

||My 91 Civic LX's front brake calipers are the originals, with 153k miles on
||them. Most of those miles were in northern U.S., snowy climates. Everything's
||working fine, but given the age of the car, I am being pre-emptive. Right now
I
||want to rebuild the front brake calipers. I have replaced the front brake pads
||twice now without difficulty.
||
||My Chilton's manual and the Autozone site have the procedure for "Brake
Caliper
||Overhaul." The procedure says to replace the following (see drawing
||http://tinyurl.com/3hy6k for item numbers):
||
||item 3 = piston boot
||item 6 = piston seal
||item 7 = boot clip or "boot ring"
||item 15 = sleeve boot
||
||For my car, Autozone sells
||
||1. a "brake caliper kit" for $2.99 (contains 3, 6, and 7 above?)

That's a seal kit - O-ring that seals the piston, boot that protects the sealing
area, and a spring ring to keep the boot in place.

||2. a "caliper bushing/pin kit" for $12.99 (contains 15 and more above?)

that should be a "hardware kit"

I'd check on getting a reman caliper. Those things are surpisingly cheap, and
you won't have to worry about rust pitting. You may have to buy the hardware
kit separately, but some brands include hardware.


Texas Parts Guy

Eric

Caroline wrote:
>
> My 91 Civic LX's front brake calipers are the originals, with 153k miles
> on them. Most of those miles were in northern U.S., snowy climates.
> Everything's working fine, but given the age of the car, I am being
> pre-emptive.

While that may sound like a good idea, if everything is indeed working fine
then I would recommend that you leave them alone.

> Right now I want to rebuild the front brake calipers. I have replaced the
> front brake pads twice now without difficulty.
>
> My Chilton's manual and the Autozone site have the procedure for "Brake
> Caliper Overhaul." The procedure says to replace the following (see
> drawing http://tinyurl.com/3hy6k for item numbers):
>
> item 3 = piston boot
> item 6 = piston seal
> item 7 = boot clip or "boot ring"
> item 15 = sleeve boot
>
> For my car, Autozone sells
>
> 1. a "brake caliper kit" for $2.99 (contains 3, 6, and 7 above?)
> 2. a "caliper bushing/pin kit" for $12.99 (contains 15 and more above?)
>
> The Autozone site doesn't say what these kits include. I will be calling
> them to try to get this information, but for now--
>
> Has anyone rebuilt their front brake calipers using a kit from Autozone?

If you do proceed with this, then I would recommend using only Honda OEM
parts. In my experience, aftermarket parts (piston seals, piston dust
boots, and slider boots) are made from a lower quality rubber than Honda's
parts. They will not last nearly as long. The piston dust boots and slider
boots crack which exposes critical parts to corrosion.

> Lastly, what are criteria to use to decide whether to skip the re-build
> and instead buy remanufactured calipers?

Check the function of your calipers fist before deciding to do any work.
Use a large pair of channel lock pliers to gently squeeze the piston into
the caliper for just a second or two. After releasing the pliers, you
should see the piston may back out. This is due to the function of the
piston seal pulling the piston in the opposite direction it had originally
moved. This motion is the primary force responsible for releasing your
brakes after they've been applied. If there's a problem with the piston,
e.g., corrosion, then the piston will not move back out after you've
squeezed it in with the pliers. Note that the amount of motion supplied by
the piston seal is not great, perhaps within 1-2 mm, however it's enough to
prevent the brakes from dragging.

The other function that's critical to prevent dragging brakes is to make
sure that the caliper body moves freely on the jail's sliders (the caliper
body contains the piston while the jails are the brackets bolted to the
steering knuckle). The sliders use a special lubricant to help ensure free
movement of the caliper body as the brakes wear down. If the sliders are
stiff, then it's fairly straight forward to clean them up and relube them.
Though you should check to make sure that they move freely before doing any
work on them.

As alluded to above, you should inspect the boots on the piston and sliders
to make sure that they aren't torn, cracked, etc.

By the way, in my opinion, the other poster's suggestion to go with
remanufactured calipers is an excellent one.

Lastly, one of the best things you can do to prevent brake problems is to
have the brake fluid flushed on a regular basis. The recommended interval
is every 30K miles or two years.

Eric

SoCalMike

> Lastly, what are criteria to use to decide whether to skip the re-build and
> instead buy remanufactured calipers?

personally, id wait until they are actually sticking or leaking, then id
go with remanufactured. if youre flushing your brake fluid and replacing
every 3 yrs/36k miles, they might last the life of the car.

jim beam

contrary to most people that value the convenience of remanufactured
calipers, i would only consider them if your originals are too badly
corroded to be reused. i hardly ever buy remanufactured calipers
myself. they often use inferior components and/or use harsh cleaning
chemicals that can leave parts very close to out of spec. i'd rather
buy new instead.

regarding rebuild kits, stick with oem - unquestionably much better
quality far in excess of the price differential. order online from
hondaautomotiveparts.com

rebuilding is easy for someone mechanically inclined. if the piston is
at all stiff on the way out, lift the caliper free of the disk & have an
assistant pump it out with brake fluid pressure. once the piston is
free, use a hose clamp like this:
http://www.etoolcart.com/browseprodu...mp-HCP750.HTML
to prevent excess fluid loss and air locks in the main system.

there's also a silicone grease that is very helpful in ensuring the
sliding parts remain lubed after reassembly:
http://www.permatex.com/auto/autouc....&item_no=20355
silicone is /the/ lube for use with the natural rubber seals in this
situation.

i think rebuilding is good preemptive practice on a car this vintage and
environment. i did the same on the '89 civic i bought earlier this
year. before, the brakes were "ok". after, they were magnificent!
it's definitely worth it - if you've owned the car a long time, the
degradation is so gradual, you don't notice it until you do the refurb.

lastly, if you're doing the front, do the rears too. for rears, you may
want to consider replacement rather than refurb because the cylinders
are fairly cheap alloy and suffer mechanical wear.



Caroline wrote:
> My 91 Civic LX's front brake calipers are the originals, with 153k miles on
> them. Most of those miles were in northern U.S., snowy climates. Everything's
> working fine, but given the age of the car, I am being pre-emptive. Right now I
> want to rebuild the front brake calipers. I have replaced the front brake pads
> twice now without difficulty.
>
> My Chilton's manual and the Autozone site have the procedure for "Brake Caliper
> Overhaul." The procedure says to replace the following (see drawing
> http://tinyurl.com/3hy6k for item numbers):
>
> item 3 = piston boot
> item 6 = piston seal
> item 7 = boot clip or "boot ring"
> item 15 = sleeve boot
>
> For my car, Autozone sells
>
> 1. a "brake caliper kit" for $2.99 (contains 3, 6, and 7 above?)
> 2. a "caliper bushing/pin kit" for $12.99 (contains 15 and more above?)
>
> The Autozone site doesn't say what these kits include. I will be calling them to
> try to get this information, but for now--
>
> Has anyone rebuilt their front brake calipers using a kit from Autozone? If so,
> what did the kit contain?
>
> Also, who else might sell a caliper rebuild kit?
>
> Lastly, what are criteria to use to decide whether to skip the re-build and
> instead buy remanufactured calipers?
>
>

mrhct

"SoCalMike" <mikein562athotmail@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:qWoEc.1454$IQ4.762@attbi_s02...
>
> > Lastly, what are criteria to use to decide whether to skip the re-build
and
> > instead buy remanufactured calipers?
>
> personally, id wait until they are actually sticking or leaking, then id
> go with remanufactured. if youre flushing your brake fluid and replacing
> every 3 yrs/36k miles, they might last the life of the car.

Forget rebuilding them. I did a rebuild several years back for my daughters
91 Accord. The piston seal is a RPITA to replace.

Caroline

Thanks Rex, Eric, Mike, mrhct, and Jim.

Due to negligence, my 1991 Civic didn't have its first brake flush until 3
years, 60k miles into its life. After this I wasn't much better, abiding only by
the 30k mile requirement (again, due to negligence on my part). To date the car
has had only 4 brake flushes in its 13 year life. Its due for its next this
month (July, 2004).

I have never done my own brake flush. I have been studying up on it using
Autozone's repair guides, my Chilton's, and the UK (essentially helm) site. I am
now prepping for a one-person gravity bleed and flush. After a lot of reading, I
feel pretty good about doing it. (The car does not have anti-lock brakes.)

I'll test the piston per Eric's description. I am leaning towards a caliper
rebuild (instead of buying reman'd calipers), despite the possible headache of
replacing the piston seal (and/or boot ring, IIRC from other reports in the
group's archive). But I appreciate the warning...

I inspected the boots on one of the calipers, and they look "aged." If the
piston seems to respond fine with Eric's test, and since the brakes are working
fine, I wonder if I might just replace the pin boot, sleeve boot, and guide pin
boot (items 13, 14, and 15 at http://tinyurl.com/3hy6k ) and call it a day. I
realize that's only about half a rebuild but it looks pretty easy. I'm not up
on all the vocabulary you used, Eric (jails, steering knuckles), but I haven't
tried googling yet, either. Or if you or someone else wants to say what on the
drawing at the link above (or some other link) they are, I'd appreciate it.

I will go OEM.

I have done no work with drum brakes (which are on the rear of my car). I'm
leaving this for some other time.

Comments welcome as always.

"jim beam" <uce@ftc.gov> wrote
> contrary to most people that value the convenience of remanufactured
> calipers, i would only consider them if your originals are too badly
> corroded to be reused. i hardly ever buy remanufactured calipers
> myself. they often use inferior components and/or use harsh cleaning
> chemicals that can leave parts very close to out of spec. i'd rather
> buy new instead.
>
> regarding rebuild kits, stick with oem - unquestionably much better
> quality far in excess of the price differential. order online from
> hondaautomotiveparts.com
>
> rebuilding is easy for someone mechanically inclined. if the piston is
> at all stiff on the way out, lift the caliper free of the disk & have an
> assistant pump it out with brake fluid pressure. once the piston is
> free, use a hose clamp like this:
> http://www.etoolcart.com/browseprodu...mp-HCP750.HTML
> to prevent excess fluid loss and air locks in the main system.
>
> there's also a silicone grease that is very helpful in ensuring the
> sliding parts remain lubed after reassembly:
>
http://www.permatex.com/auto/autouc....item&item_no=2
0355
> silicone is /the/ lube for use with the natural rubber seals in this
> situation.
>
> i think rebuilding is good preemptive practice on a car this vintage and
> environment. i did the same on the '89 civic i bought earlier this
> year. before, the brakes were "ok". after, they were magnificent!
> it's definitely worth it - if you've owned the car a long time, the
> degradation is so gradual, you don't notice it until you do the refurb.
>
> lastly, if you're doing the front, do the rears too. for rears, you may
> want to consider replacement rather than refurb because the cylinders
> are fairly cheap alloy and suffer mechanical wear.

motsco_ _

Caroline wrote:
> Thanks Rex, Eric, Mike, mrhct, and Jim.
>
> Due to negligence, my 1991 Civic didn't have its first brake flush until 3
> years, 60k miles into its life. After this I wasn't much better, abiding only by
> the 30k mile requirement (again, due to negligence on my part). To date the car
> has had only 4 brake flushes in its 13 year life. Its due for its next this
> month (July, 2004).
>

++++++++++++

Don't freak out! You've already had twice as many flushes as most Hondas
your age. Get a helper to push the pedal (but not to the floor). If you
have a good jack, tire iron, and helper, a bleed takes only about an
hour on your driveway.

Crack all lug nuts loose ahead of time. Start at front-left, then go
clockwise (if steering wheel is on left side

Use your park brake regularly to keep things in adjustment.(prevents
brakes feeling spongy)

'Curly'

jim beam

motsco_ _ wrote:
> Caroline wrote:
>
>> Thanks Rex, Eric, Mike, mrhct, and Jim.
>>
>> Due to negligence, my 1991 Civic didn't have its first brake flush
>> until 3
>> years, 60k miles into its life. After this I wasn't much better,
>> abiding only by
>> the 30k mile requirement (again, due to negligence on my part). To
>> date the car
>> has had only 4 brake flushes in its 13 year life. Its due for its next
>> this
>> month (July, 2004).
>>
>
> ++++++++++++
>
> Don't freak out! You've already had twice as many flushes as most Hondas
> your age. Get a helper to push the pedal (but not to the floor). If you
> have a good jack, tire iron, and helper, a bleed takes only about an
> hour on your driveway.
>
> Crack all lug nuts loose ahead of time. Start at front-left, then go
> clockwise (if steering wheel is on left side
>
> Use your park brake regularly to keep things in adjustment.(prevents
> brakes feeling spongy)
>
> 'Curly'
>

curly, where did you get this "parking brake keeps things in adjustment"
from?

i've seen that repeated a number of times on this group so i'm curious.
especially as it's the main service brake that actually does the
adjusting, not the parking brake. [take the rear drum off and have an
assistant GENTLY press the brake pedal if you want to see it work for
yourself - quite a cunning design].

jim beam

Caroline wrote:
> Thanks Rex, Eric, Mike, mrhct, and Jim.
>
> Due to negligence, my 1991 Civic didn't have its first brake flush until 3
> years, 60k miles into its life. After this I wasn't much better, abiding only by
> the 30k mile requirement (again, due to negligence on my part). To date the car
> has had only 4 brake flushes in its 13 year life. Its due for its next this
> month (July, 2004).
>
> I have never done my own brake flush. I have been studying up on it using
> Autozone's repair guides, my Chilton's, and the UK (essentially helm) site. I am
> now prepping for a one-person gravity bleed and flush.

gravity works great for fluid refresh if you don't have airlocks, but
it's unreliable in a rebuild like this. borrow a neighbor kid for a few
minutes and have them pump the pedal for you. just make sure they
understand how important it is that they don't let their foot /off/ the
pedal until you say! suckback is bad news.

> After a lot of reading, I
> feel pretty good about doing it. (The car does not have anti-lock brakes.)
>
> I'll test the piston per Eric's description. I am leaning towards a caliper
> rebuild (instead of buying reman'd calipers), despite the possible headache of
> replacing the piston seal

that bit's easy - small electrical screwdriver has that thing out in no
time. the fiddliest item in the whole job is fitting the new boot, and
even that's not too bad if you think about it before you start working.

> (and/or boot ring, IIRC from other reports in the
> group's archive). But I appreciate the warning...
>
> I inspected the boots on one of the calipers, and they look "aged." If the
> piston seems to respond fine with Eric's test, and since the brakes are working
> fine, I wonder if I might just replace the pin boot, sleeve boot, and guide pin
> boot (items 13, 14, and 15 at http://tinyurl.com/3hy6k ) and call it a day. I
> realize that's only about half a rebuild but it looks pretty easy. I'm not up
> on all the vocabulary you used, Eric (jails, steering knuckles), but I haven't
> tried googling yet, either. Or if you or someone else wants to say what on the
> drawing at the link above (or some other link) they are, I'd appreciate it.
>
> I will go OEM.
>
> I have done no work with drum brakes (which are on the rear of my car). I'm
> leaving this for some other time.

if you need to, you can replace the rear cylinders without removing the
shoe assembly.

if you want to tackle the rear shoes, that's not such a big deal.
despite the fact that it's often sworn at as being difficult to
reassemble, i promise, it can be done without brute force, skinned
knuckles and special tools. simply attach the brake cable, screw the
adjuster bar all the way back in, fit the main tension spring, and you
can then "puzzle" that essembly back into position in one piece. then
you can fit the lower spring by hand and puzzle that into position also.
i watched my dad mess about with all kinds of problems on these
things for years - always a dreadful business. then saw it done by an
an old pro - he had the whole thing back in, fully assembled inside 2
minutes. no tools. it was great! it's all technique & confidence.

>
> Comments welcome as always.
>
> "jim beam" <uce@ftc.gov> wrote
>
>>contrary to most people that value the convenience of remanufactured
>>calipers, i would only consider them if your originals are too badly
>>corroded to be reused. i hardly ever buy remanufactured calipers
>>myself. they often use inferior components and/or use harsh cleaning
>>chemicals that can leave parts very close to out of spec. i'd rather
>>buy new instead.
>>
>>regarding rebuild kits, stick with oem - unquestionably much better
>>quality far in excess of the price differential. order online from
>>hondaautomotiveparts.com
>>
>>rebuilding is easy for someone mechanically inclined. if the piston is
>>at all stiff on the way out, lift the caliper free of the disk & have an
>>assistant pump it out with brake fluid pressure. once the piston is
>>free, use a hose clamp like this:
>>http://www.etoolcart.com/browseprodu...mp-HCP750.HTML
>>to prevent excess fluid loss and air locks in the main system.
>>
>>there's also a silicone grease that is very helpful in ensuring the
>>sliding parts remain lubed after reassembly:
>>
>
> http://www.permatex.com/auto/autouc....item&item_no=2
> 0355
>
>>silicone is /the/ lube for use with the natural rubber seals in this
>>situation.
>>
>>i think rebuilding is good preemptive practice on a car this vintage and
>>environment. i did the same on the '89 civic i bought earlier this
>>year. before, the brakes were "ok". after, they were magnificent!
>>it's definitely worth it - if you've owned the car a long time, the
>>degradation is so gradual, you don't notice it until you do the refurb.
>>
>>lastly, if you're doing the front, do the rears too. for rears, you may
>>want to consider replacement rather than refurb because the cylinders
>>are fairly cheap alloy and suffer mechanical wear.
>
>
>

Rex B

On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 18:33:48 GMT, jim beam <uce@ftc.gov> wrote:

||Caroline wrote:
||> Thanks Rex, Eric, Mike, mrhct, and Jim.
||>
||> Due to negligence, my 1991 Civic didn't have its first brake flush until 3
||> years, 60k miles into its life. After this I wasn't much better, abiding
only by
||> the 30k mile requirement (again, due to negligence on my part). To date the
car
||> has had only 4 brake flushes in its 13 year life. Its due for its next this
||> month (July, 2004).
||>
||> I have never done my own brake flush. I have been studying up on it using
||> Autozone's repair guides, my Chilton's, and the UK (essentially helm) site.
I am
||> now prepping for a one-person gravity bleed and flush.
||
||gravity works great for fluid refresh if you don't have airlocks, but
||it's unreliable in a rebuild like this. borrow a neighbor kid for a few
||minutes and have them pump the pedal for you. just make sure they
||understand how important it is that they don't let their foot /off/ the
||pedal until you say! suckback is bad news.

Put a wooden block under the pedal

||> replacing the piston seal
||
||that bit's easy - small electrical screwdriver has that thing out in no
||time. the fiddliest item in the whole job is fitting the new boot, and
||even that's not too bad if you think about it before you start working.

I agree, you can do it.

||
||if you need to, you can replace the rear cylinders without removing the
||shoe assembly.
||
||if you want to tackle the rear shoes, that's not such a big deal.
||despite the fact that it's often sworn at as being difficult to
||reassemble, i promise, it can be done without brute force, skinned
||knuckles and special tools. simply attach the brake cable, screw the
||adjuster bar all the way back in, fit the main tension spring, and you
||can then "puzzle" that essembly back into position in one piece. then
||you can fit the lower spring by hand and puzzle that into position also.

The key to working on rear drums is to remove both drums, hose them off to get
rid of the dust, then work on one side at a time. That way you can look at the
other side if you get confused.

Texas Parts Guy

SoCalMike

Caroline wrote:

> Thanks Rex, Eric, Mike, mrhct, and Jim.
>
> Due to negligence, my 1991 Civic didn't have its first brake flush until 3
> years, 60k miles into its life. After this I wasn't much better, abiding only by
> the 30k mile requirement (again, due to negligence on my part). To date the car
> has had only 4 brake flushes in its 13 year life. Its due for its next this
> month (July, 2004).

dudette, youre probably 4 brake flushes ahead of most 91 civics! i have
yet to give my 98 its second, but its only at 46k miles. i plan to very
soon though.
>
> I have never done my own brake flush. I have been studying up on it using
> Autozone's repair guides, my Chilton's, and the UK (essentially helm) site. I am
> now prepping for a one-person gravity bleed and flush. After a lot of reading, I
> feel pretty good about doing it. (The car does not have anti-lock brakes.)

i got a mityvac kit at harbor freight... works great, 1 person. no pedal
pumping, which is what can screw up the master cylinder! start at the
far rear, then drivers rear, then pass front, then drivers front,
working your way to the master cylinder. by then, all the fluid should
be that nice straw color!

compared to what youve done so far, itll be a non-event. trust me.
>
> I'll test the piston per Eric's description. I am leaning towards a caliper
> rebuild (instead of buying reman'd calipers), despite the possible headache of
> replacing the piston seal (and/or boot ring, IIRC from other reports in the
> group's archive). But I appreciate the warning...

or you can jack up the front, take the wheels off, and turn the rotors
by hand. then press the brakes and do it again. thatll tell you if one
side is sticking. youll feel it. some dragging is normal, but both
rotors should move ok.

SoCalMike

motsco_ _ wrote:

> Caroline wrote:
>
>> Thanks Rex, Eric, Mike, mrhct, and Jim.
>>
>> Due to negligence, my 1991 Civic didn't have its first brake flush
>> until 3
>> years, 60k miles into its life. After this I wasn't much better,
>> abiding only by
>> the 30k mile requirement (again, due to negligence on my part). To
>> date the car
>> has had only 4 brake flushes in its 13 year life. Its due for its next
>> this
>> month (July, 2004).
>>
>
> ++++++++++++
>
> Don't freak out! You've already had twice as many flushes as most Hondas
> your age. Get a helper to push the pedal (but not to the floor).

id go with the mityvac. its hard to say where exactly the ridge in the
master cylinder might be. itll come in handy reading vacuum and doing
other tests that require vacuum and/or pressure. its a fun tool!

Caroline

"SoCalMike" <mikein562athotmail@hotmail.com> wrote
> Caroline wrote:
> > Due to negligence, my 1991 Civic didn't have its first brake flush until 3
> > years, 60k miles into its life. After this I wasn't much better, abiding
only by
> > the 30k mile requirement (again, due to negligence on my part). To date the
car
> > has had only 4 brake flushes in its 13 year life. Its due for its next this
> > month (July, 2004).
>
> dudette, youre probably 4 brake flushes ahead of most 91 civics! i have
> yet to give my 98 its second, but its only at 46k miles. i plan to very
> soon though.

:-)

I'm not freakin' or sweatin' it, Curly and Mike. Just "coming clean" with my
automotive sins.

> > I have never done my own brake flush. I have been studying up on it using
> > Autozone's repair guides, my Chilton's, and the UK (essentially helm) site.
I am
> > now prepping for a one-person gravity bleed and flush. After a lot of
reading, I
> > feel pretty good about doing it. (The car does not have anti-lock brakes.)
>
> i got a mityvac kit at harbor freight... works great, 1 person. no pedal
> pumping, which is what can screw up the master cylinder! start at the
> far rear, then drivers rear, then pass front, then drivers front,
> working your way to the master cylinder. by then, all the fluid should
> be that nice straw color!

I saw quite a bit of commentary on the mityvac kits when googling the archives.
I'll look into this more tomorrow.

Aside: I discovered Harbor Freight two weeks ago. There's a store not too far
from me. It's for anyone interested in low price tools at not necessarily
Craftsman quality. I bought a 20 to 200 inch-pound Pittsburgh torque wrench
there for under $20 (on sale). I'm using it all the time. Compared it a couple
times to my larger, Home Depot Husky torque wrench (lower ranges). Works great,
though I realize it likely won't last as long (or hold calibration as long) as
something much more expensive.

> compared to what youve done so far, itll be a non-event. trust me.

'kay-doke. :-)

> > I'll test the piston per Eric's description. I am leaning towards a caliper
> > rebuild (instead of buying reman'd calipers), despite the possible headache
of
> > replacing the piston seal (and/or boot ring, IIRC from other reports in the
> > group's archive). But I appreciate the warning...
>
> or you can jack up the front, take the wheels off, and turn the rotors
> by hand. then press the brakes and do it again. thatll tell you if one
> side is sticking. youll feel it. some dragging is normal, but both
> rotors should move ok.

Sounds good.

Caroline

"jim beam" <uce@ftc.gov> wrote
> Caroline wrote:
> > I have never done my own brake flush. I have been studying up on it using
> > Autozone's repair guides, my Chilton's, and the UK (essentially helm) site.
I am
> > now prepping for a one-person gravity bleed and flush.
>
> gravity works great for fluid refresh if you don't have airlocks, but
> it's unreliable in a rebuild like this. borrow a neighbor kid for a few
> minutes and have them pump the pedal for you. just make sure they
> understand how important it is that they don't let their foot /off/ the
> pedal until you say! suckback is bad news.
>
> > After a lot of reading, I
> > feel pretty good about doing it. (The car does not have anti-lock brakes.)
> >
> > I'll test the piston per Eric's description. I am leaning towards a caliper
> > rebuild (instead of buying reman'd calipers), despite the possible headache
of
> > replacing the piston seal
>
> that bit's easy - small electrical screwdriver has that thing out in no
> time. the fiddliest item in the whole job is fitting the new boot, and
> even that's not too bad if you think about it before you start working.

Update:

I did a "dry run" over the weekend and found that the three boots per caliper
were in pretty good condition, after all. After more study, I decided to
"rebuild" only the piston, replacing the piston seal, the boot ring, and the
boot. Majestic (online parts) had quite a delay, due to both the July 4 holiday
and because it didn't have all the OEM parts in stock, and so I ultimately
canceled an order I had with them (which they were very cool about). I called my
favorite independent shop, and they likewise didn't keep these parts but
suggested I use a Napa piston rebuild kit by United. I ended up using this kit.
$14 per piston, which is a lot less than OEM, though I note others' concerns
about material quality.

As you suggested, Jim, I raised the caliper and then used the brake pedal to
increase the brake fluid pressure. Slowly, with a lot of checking, I pushed the
piston out far enough that I could wobble it a bit with my fingers as it sat in
its boot. When the caliper was off and at the workbench, I ended up pounding a
bit (going through the banjo bolt hole with a wooden dowel). To novices: Beware
the close tolerance of the piston in the cylinder. Don't "pound hard" anything
on the caliper.

With the electrician's screwdriver (thin, small diameter) I probed around the
piston boot an hour or so trying to figure out how everything went together. I
found the metal of the boot ring beneath the gunky buildup near the
circumference. I soon found I could pry the boot ring up and out easily. The
boot ring seems just a little thicker and just a little stiffer than baling
wire.

On the next caliper, this all went a lot faster, of course.

Which grease to buy was puzzling for a few days. My Chilton's manual says to use
"silicone grease" on the pins on which the caliper "floats" and "cylinder
grease" on the piston seal. Plenty of silicone greases are in the hardware and
auto parts stores, but I went with a synthetic grease dedicated to brake
calipers, like I think Jim cited with his link. $2 for a generous packet at
Autozone. It's red in color. It said it could be used on pistons, too, so, fed
up with the conflicts in my research on this issue and what the stores were
selling, I used the red Autozone synthetic grease on the pins and a very thin
film of it on the piston seal, along with brake fluid, for the required
lubrication.

The piston seal was no problem installing. The piston went back in place pretty
easily, with a little help from a C-clamp. A little fidgeting got the boot and
boot ring into place pretty easily, too.

I cleaned up the three sleeves with a degreaser followed by a thorough water
rinse and let them dry. I wiped down the two pin (= bolt) assemblies, applied
the red caliper grease, and re-assembled all.

After studying reports on the MityVac vacuum pump for brake bleeding, I happily
splurged on the super-duper MityVac kit at Harbor Freight. (I"m on a "buy only
really nice tools" kick, anyway. Plus, like Mike said, I can use the MityVac for
vacuum tests elsewhere on my car's engine.) Using a vacuum to pump out the brake
fluid at each wheel made a lot of sense to me. So too does not operating the
brake pedal, at some risk to the master cylinder. All as Mike and others in the
archives have suggested.

In hindsight, I don't know how I could have achieved as thorough and controlled
a flush as I think I did without the MityVac kit.

I goofed once and I think dropped the level below the bottom of the Master
Cylinder reservoir. "Gulp" sound at the reserovoir? Big mistake. I was going to
do a more thorough flush anyway and so pretty easily recovered from this
mistake. Naturally, you test the car's brakes thoroughly before going out on the
roads. After the "gulp," the pedal went just about to the floor and wouldn't
"lock," so I knew I'd probably injected an air bubble into the system.

The MityVac fittings worked great on the front caliper bleeder valves but not so
well on the rear ones. Consequently, vacuum was harder to hold on the rears, and
a lot more air bubbles came through the Mityvac hose for the rears. Undoubtedly
this was from the ambient air leaking through the fitting and not the brake
fluid in the car's system. The car's braking fine, so I am not worried.

Jim, I removed the brake drums from the rear brakes, cleaned off the inside
parts with brake cleaner, and got a good look at the cylinders and what all is
going on in there. I've got plenty of shoe left (by the specs for the car) and
figure that most of the braking power comes from the front, anyway. Thus I'm
holding off replacing the rear brake cylinders until I need another pair of rear
brake shoes. (The car's on its second pair of rear brake shoes at 154k miles.)

Hose pinchers (= clamps) were a vital part to this job, as Jim suggested. After
more study, I ended up with a pair from Autozone for $7 or so. They operate like
little vises and did the job perfectly. I could not locate anything like what
Jim cited online at any of the Auto parts stores or hardware stores, though I
would have preferred the clamps he suggested. Easier fastening and releasing...

In hindsight, and as several here suggested, I'd say anyone on a tight budget
worried about his/her car's brakes and reasonably mechanically inclined could
probably get away with just cleaning up the sleeves, pins (= bolts), and piston
boot, and boot ring. From the pistons I carefully scraped off a tiny bit (but
just enough to resist motion, I figured) of residue, too. Re-grease with
synthetic caliper grease, bleed, and you're back on the road.

"Must have" tools and materials for this job to me are:
Medium-large C-clamp
Hose pinchers (= clamps)
Mityvac kit
Brake cleaner (read what it can go on and what it can't)
Brake fluid
Jack stands, one pair
Lotta cardboard to lay on the ground and on the car where you're doing the work.
Brake fluid eats paint.

As always, I appreciate the various nudges in the right direction folks provided
here. All responses were helpful to making decisions on this.