Caroline

"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote
> <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote
snip--interested brake-rebuilding people should read the thread
> >> I thought that star wheel, in between the two clevis pins, was supposed to
> >> be turned by the self-adjusting lever??
snip

> >But also --
> >
> >1.
> >Chilton's and Autozone give a procedure for manual adjustment of the rear
> >brakes. It's under the "Adjustments: Rear Drum Brake Adjustment." I assume
> >manual adjustment is for 'non-normal wear.'
>
> Both of above sound like Chilton's "generic advice" again.:-(

> >2.
> >Googling for {star wheel adjuster} or similar words on adjusting rear brakes
> >turned up some posts that talked about limitations in the self-adjusting
> >mechanism. IIRC someone (or two) claimed that you had to drive in reverse,
> >brake, then drive forward a little and do this repeatedly (to get enough
turns
> >on the star wheel adjuster) to get a good adjustment. The persons(s) said it
was
> >easier and more reliable to do the adjustment manually.
>
> The Honda/Helm manual for a '90 Civic describes the procedure for changing
> rear brake shoes and the final step says to press the brake pedal to set
> the self-adjusting mechanism.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean about "generic advice." The UK sites manuals
at
http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/workshopmanuals2.html are presumably identical to
Helm. These days I have been checking both the UK site (= Helm) and Chilton's.
Sometimes the Chilton's manual is more specific and accurate; sometimes the UK
site is. Sometimes the wording is identical in both. For example, in another
thread recently I noted that the UK site manual had the exact same words as
Chilton's and Autozone's for a description of the ECU (under PGM-FI operation).

I get the feeling that Chilton's somehow legally draws from the manufacturer's
service manuals to the same extent as Helm. Autozone states somewhere at its
site that it has licensing agreements with Haynes and Chilton, so the frequent
Chilton-identical wording at it is no surprise.

But on the subject of brake adjustments, from what I can tell, there do appear
to be significant differences between Chilton's/Autozone and Helm/UK site.

So I note for the archive that, from what I could see, none of the manuals at
the UK site indicate a procedure for adjusting the rear drum brakes like the one
in Chilton's and at Autozone. I gather you too searched Helm and found only the
point you cite above on this subject. Likewise, the UK site manual for 1995-1997
Civics states "Depress the brake pedal several times to set the self-adjusting
brake" as one of its final steps in re-assembling the brake shoes.

I'm more inclined to believe Chilton's and Autozone reflect reality better on
this point. Namely, the adjuster gets crudded up pretty easily, so one has to
get in there and make the adjustment by hand. Jim and you both seem to agree
that this makes the self-adjustment feature somewhat suspect. Or the manuals
should maybe emphasize more, "Ya gotta clean the mechanism up every so often."
Guess one could and should read that into the Helm manuals. Maybe
Chilton's/Autozone's instructions go a bit more toward this.

In addition, I do have to wonder why there is this plugged port on many cars
(and certainly 1991 Civics) that by design is dedicated to manually adjusting
the star wheel adjuster. As I suggested before, manual adjustment is for
"non-normal wear"? But that doesn't really make sense. The shoes should wear
gradually. I see no reason why, barring the decrepitness of aged parts,
including a loss of spring in the adjuster "lever," the self-adjuster shouldn't
work fine.

I am a little tempted to go back into my rear drum brakes and disassemble enough
so I can thoroughly PB blaster the adjuster and where it mates with the clevis
pins, then maybe anti-seize these. Maybe replace the lever mechanism, if
possible.

I continue to appreciate the improvement in how the brake pedal feels but also
remain a bit concerned that a perhaps "too tightly adjusted shoe" is fooling me
into thinking I don't have to bleed more air. Then too there is such a thing as
psychological "overconcern" and perfectionist thinking...

More experience, and as always continuing to read here, over time will tell me
more, I reckon.

snip
> >I am a bit concerned I overtightened the shoes such that they are too close
to
> >the drums. Guess this will just wear the shoes quicker. Also, I can't say I'm
> >100% confident the self-adjusting lever is doing its job. It seems a flimsy
> >design that doesn't hold the star wheel all that securely, so as to achieve
only
> >the one-way rotation that should occur as the brake shoes wear.
>
> Yeah I've never been convinced that a self-adjusting mechanism, as
> implemented, can work effectively in the environment it lives in after a
> few years of lubricant burn-off, clag and corrosion build-up. If there's
> any drag, it's easy to check the drum temps after a drive.

Is this just a rough feel kind of test, based on experience? If not, your
elaboration is welcome.

snip
> At least the Honda drums are easy to get off - I recall my Beetles which
> needed a 250ft-lb torque wrench to get the rear axle nut off.

Ohmylord. Naturally all the travails of folks here with the much lower torqued
crank pulley bolts come to mind. I guess it's easier to figure a way to hold the
Beetle wheel hub steady than the Honda pulley, though, when applying the 250
ft-lbs of torque.

George Macdonald

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:42:44 GMT, "Caroline"
<caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:

>"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote
>> <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote
>snip--interested brake-rebuilding people should read the thread
>> >> I thought that star wheel, in between the two clevis pins, was supposed to
>> >> be turned by the self-adjusting lever??
>snip
>
>> >But also --
>> >
>> >1.
>> >Chilton's and Autozone give a procedure for manual adjustment of the rear
>> >brakes. It's under the "Adjustments: Rear Drum Brake Adjustment." I assume
>> >manual adjustment is for 'non-normal wear.'
>>
>> Both of above sound like Chilton's "generic advice" again.:-(
>
>> >2.
>> >Googling for {star wheel adjuster} or similar words on adjusting rear brakes
>> >turned up some posts that talked about limitations in the self-adjusting
>> >mechanism. IIRC someone (or two) claimed that you had to drive in reverse,
>> >brake, then drive forward a little and do this repeatedly (to get enough
>turns
>> >on the star wheel adjuster) to get a good adjustment. The persons(s) said it
>was
>> >easier and more reliable to do the adjustment manually.
>>
>> The Honda/Helm manual for a '90 Civic describes the procedure for changing
>> rear brake shoes and the final step says to press the brake pedal to set
>> the self-adjusting mechanism.
>
>I'm not sure exactly what you mean about "generic advice." The UK sites manuals
>at
>http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/workshopmanuals2.html are presumably identical to
>Helm.

Not sure which manual you are referencing at the UK site but by "generic",
I mean the thing about the reverse to set the self-adjuster. Manual
adjustment when the self-adjuster can't do its job is in the common sense
category.:-) Whether to be concerned about the lack of self-adjustment and
when to attempt correction is a judgement call, depending on how much it
annoys.

> These days I have been checking both the UK site (= Helm) and Chilton's.
>Sometimes the Chilton's manual is more specific and accurate; sometimes the UK
>site is. Sometimes the wording is identical in both. For example, in another
>thread recently I noted that the UK site manual had the exact same words as
>Chilton's and Autozone's for a description of the ECU (under PGM-FI operation).
>
>I get the feeling that Chilton's somehow legally draws from the manufacturer's
>service manuals to the same extent as Helm. Autozone states somewhere at its
>site that it has licensing agreements with Haynes and Chilton, so the frequent
>Chilton-identical wording at it is no surprise.

I haven't looked at a recent Chilton's manual but the ones I bought years
ago, had a very few specific things which were specific to the car the
manual was addressing but lots of filler material which was common to all
their manuals. The coolant change section on air-cooled Beetles was a
classic.

>But on the subject of brake adjustments, from what I can tell, there do appear
>to be significant differences between Chilton's/Autozone and Helm/UK site.
>
>So I note for the archive that, from what I could see, none of the manuals at
>the UK site indicate a procedure for adjusting the rear drum brakes like the one
>in Chilton's and at Autozone. I gather you too searched Helm and found only the
>point you cite above on this subject. Likewise, the UK site manual for 1995-1997
>Civics states "Depress the brake pedal several times to set the self-adjusting
>brake" as one of its final steps in re-assembling the brake shoes.

I have the '90 Civic Helm manual.

>I'm more inclined to believe Chilton's and Autozone reflect reality better on
>this point. Namely, the adjuster gets crudded up pretty easily, so one has to
>get in there and make the adjustment by hand. Jim and you both seem to agree
>that this makes the self-adjustment feature somewhat suspect. Or the manuals
>should maybe emphasize more, "Ya gotta clean the mechanism up every so often."
>Guess one could and should read that into the Helm manuals. Maybe
>Chilton's/Autozone's instructions go a bit more toward this.
>
>In addition, I do have to wonder why there is this plugged port on many cars
>(and certainly 1991 Civics) that by design is dedicated to manually adjusting
>the star wheel adjuster. As I suggested before, manual adjustment is for
>"non-normal wear"? But that doesn't really make sense. The shoes should wear
>gradually. I see no reason why, barring the decrepitness of aged parts,
>including a loss of spring in the adjuster "lever," the self-adjuster shouldn't
>work fine.
>
>I am a little tempted to go back into my rear drum brakes and disassemble enough
>so I can thoroughly PB blaster the adjuster and where it mates with the clevis
>pins, then maybe anti-seize these. Maybe replace the lever mechanism, if
>possible.

The Blaster will pronbably do a good job of releasing any binding due to
corrosion etc. The '90 Civic manual strangely doesn't mention anywhere
which grease to use on the rear drum brake mechanism though it does mention
greasing all sliding parts; for the front brakes it specifies silicone
grease everywhere... though the silicone grease I've found in auto-parts
stores always seems much too thin for the job. When I used to work in
labs, we had a nice thick silicone grease which would be perfect for the
job.

I believe that later Helm/Honda manuals often specify a high-temp urea
grease for sliding parts of brake mechanisms.

>I continue to appreciate the improvement in how the brake pedal feels but also
>remain a bit concerned that a perhaps "too tightly adjusted shoe" is fooling me
>into thinking I don't have to bleed more air. Then too there is such a thing as
>psychological "overconcern" and perfectionist thinking...
>
>More experience, and as always continuing to read here, over time will tell me
>more, I reckon.
>
>snip
>> >I am a bit concerned I overtightened the shoes such that they are too close
>to
>> >the drums. Guess this will just wear the shoes quicker. Also, I can't say I'm
>> >100% confident the self-adjusting lever is doing its job. It seems a flimsy
>> >design that doesn't hold the star wheel all that securely, so as to achieve
>only
>> >the one-way rotation that should occur as the brake shoes wear.
>>
>> Yeah I've never been convinced that a self-adjusting mechanism, as
>> implemented, can work effectively in the environment it lives in after a
>> few years of lubricant burn-off, clag and corrosion build-up. If there's
>> any drag, it's easy to check the drum temps after a drive.
>
>Is this just a rough feel kind of test, based on experience? If not, your
>elaboration is welcome.

If you suspect a binding brake it's a quick check. If they're only warm
there's nothing to worry about.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

Caroline

"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote
> <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >I'm not sure exactly what you mean about "generic advice." The UK sites
manuals
> >at
> >http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/workshopmanuals2.html are presumably identical
to
> >Helm.
>
> Not sure which manual you are referencing at the UK site

All of them. They're all put out by Honda, or so I think several of us more or
less agreed in an earlier thread a few weeks ago.

> but by "generic",
> I mean the thing about the reverse to set the self-adjuster. Manual
> adjustment when the self-adjuster can't do its job is in the common sense
> category.:-)

I see...

;-)

> Whether to be concerned about the lack of self-adjustment and
> when to attempt correction is a judgement call, depending on how much it
> annoys.

Okay.

snip
> >I get the feeling that Chilton's somehow legally draws from the
manufacturer's
> >service manuals to the same extent as Helm. Autozone states somewhere at its
> >site that it has licensing agreements with Haynes and Chilton, so the
frequent
> >Chilton-identical wording at it is no surprise.
>
> I haven't looked at a recent Chilton's manual but the ones I bought years
> ago, had a very few specific things which were specific to the car the
> manual was addressing but lots of filler material which was common to all
> their manuals.

Before reading this post, I had a suspicion that Chilton's approach has changed
a lot, too. This is because of a vague recollection of reading car manuals many
years ago, (possibly pre-dating Helm?). Since the 1980s, almost every decent
public library I've visited has had these huge, around 4-inch thick "Chilton
Import Car, 1989" or "Chilton Domestic Car, 1985" etc. manuals, covering many
makes, section by section. IIRC they seemed somewhat generic. But I didn't use
them much, so I could be wrong.

I think Chilton still puts those 4-inch thick manuals out, but they also print
indvidual manuals that seem to me are much more narrowly focused.

Again, just an, um, youthful impression. I realize you've been reading manuals
way longer than I. Maybe not the latest Chilton's though?

> The coolant change section on air-cooled Beetles was a
> classic.
>
> >But on the subject of brake adjustments, from what I can tell, there do
appear
> >to be significant differences between Chilton's/Autozone and Helm/UK site.
> >
> >So I note for the archive that, from what I could see, none of the manuals at
> >the UK site indicate a procedure for adjusting the rear drum brakes like the
one
> >in Chilton's and at Autozone. I gather you too searched Helm and found only
the
> >point you cite above on this subject. Likewise, the UK site manual for
1995-1997
> >Civics states "Depress the brake pedal several times to set the
self-adjusting
> >brake" as one of its final steps in re-assembling the brake shoes.
>
> I have the '90 Civic Helm manual.

The UK site's manuals I believe say the same thing for any Honda from about
1984-1997 that has drum brakes.

snip
> >I am a little tempted to go back into my rear drum brakes and disassemble
enough
> >so I can thoroughly PB blaster the adjuster and where it mates with the
clevis
> >pins, then maybe anti-seize these. Maybe replace the lever mechanism, if
> >possible.
>
> The Blaster will pronbably do a good job of releasing any binding due to
> corrosion etc. The '90 Civic manual strangely doesn't mention anywhere
> which grease to use on the rear drum brake mechanism though it does mention
> greasing all sliding parts;

FWIW to anyone, Chilton's for 1984-1995 Civic/CRX/Del Sol says for the brake
shoes:

-cylinder grease on the pivot pin sliding surface

-unspecified grease on the backing plate sliding surfaces (do not allow grease
to contact brake linings)

-unspecified grease on adjuster threads

If I get into the drum brakes again, I'll probably just use the synthetic
(silicone?) grease I bought at Autozone. It's red in color.

I don't know what "cylinder grease" is. Chilton's has it being applied to the
front disc brake piston boot, too. Like I posted to Jim, in the front I just
used the red grease everywhere grease was specified.

> for the front brakes it specifies silicone
> grease everywhere... though the silicone grease I've found in auto-parts
> stores always seems much too thin for the job. When I used to work in
> labs, we had a nice thick silicone grease which would be perfect for the
> job.

I saw your posts of a few years ago about using dielectric grease, albeit
ultimately with some concern that it was too light. I assume the dielectric
grease is silicone-based, too, or you wouldn't have endorsed it then.

Based on this, I actually did use dielectric grease for a few days on the front
brakes. I had some handy and was still puzzling about the grease Jim was
suggesting (which made sense; I just couldn't find anything locally that
resembled it), what the manuals said, and what I was seeing at auto parts
stores. So I threw the dielectric grease on the front caliper mounting pins for
a few days during my "dry run" partial re-build. Then I considered the matter
more.

Several days later, the dielectric grease seemed to be fine--still in place,
with the brakes working great. But once I bought the Autozone red caliper
grease, I did note, as you did, that the consistency of the dielectric grease
was lighter. Everything on the front brakes now has the red caliper grease.

> I believe that later Helm/Honda manuals often specify a high-temp urea
> grease for sliding parts of brake mechanisms.

I think I'll revisit this two years from now at the next brake flush.

Or whenever I hear odd noises from the brakes.

snip
> >> Yeah I've never been convinced that a self-adjusting mechanism, as
> >> implemented, can work effectively in the environment it lives in after a
> >> few years of lubricant burn-off, clag and corrosion build-up. If there's
> >> any drag, it's easy to check the drum temps after a drive.
> >
> >Is this just a rough feel kind of test, based on experience? If not, your
> >elaboration is welcome.
>
> If you suspect a binding brake it's a quick check. If they're only warm
> there's nothing to worry about.

Hm. I returned home tonight after ten-mile drive and put my hand on one of the
drum backing plates. It was just hot enough to be a bit uncomfortable but cool
enough that I could leave my hand there indefinitely without any injury. I think
I'll do an inspection tomorrow. I want to figure out how that adjusting
bolt/clevis ratchet mechanism works. By design, does it automatically back off
under certain driving conditions? Or because of the ratchet, is the rotation
only such that the shoes and drum move closer together, automatically providing
for wear over time?

In other words, if I did tighten the star wheel adjuster too much the other way,
after some driving will it back off by itself?

It actually seems like it has just a wee bit, based on the parking brake feel.

BTW, I embarked on this latest maintenance because of a post of yours several
months ago suggesting to I think someone else that a brake caliper rebuild is a
good idea for a car such-and-such years and miles old. No regrets. I've learned
a lot and have a lot more peace of mind knowing precisely the condition of my
brakes.

George Macdonald

On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 05:34:36 GMT, "Caroline"
<caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:

>"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote

<<snip>>>

> I haven't looked at a recent Chilton's manual but the ones I bought years
>> ago, had a very few specific things which were specific to the car the
>> manual was addressing but lots of filler material which was common to all
>> their manuals.
>
>Before reading this post, I had a suspicion that Chilton's approach has changed
>a lot, too. This is because of a vague recollection of reading car manuals many
>years ago, (possibly pre-dating Helm?). Since the 1980s, almost every decent
>public library I've visited has had these huge, around 4-inch thick "Chilton
>Import Car, 1989" or "Chilton Domestic Car, 1985" etc. manuals, covering many
>makes, section by section. IIRC they seemed somewhat generic. But I didn't use
>them much, so I could be wrong.
>
>I think Chilton still puts those 4-inch thick manuals out, but they also print
>indvidual manuals that seem to me are much more narrowly focused.
>
>Again, just an, um, youthful impression. I realize you've been reading manuals
>way longer than I. Maybe not the latest Chilton's though?

I guess I'm still pissed that I paid for a sealed Chilton manual which
didn't err, illuminate - the hard cover was worth more than any info
contained within. IIRC Chilton bought up Haynes a few years back and
Haynes manuals were a touch better so maybe there's been some consolidation
of product lines. I cant lose my basic mistrust of Chiltons.<shrug>

>snip
>> >I am a little tempted to go back into my rear drum brakes and disassemble
>enough
>> >so I can thoroughly PB blaster the adjuster and where it mates with the
>clevis
>> >pins, then maybe anti-seize these. Maybe replace the lever mechanism, if
>> >possible.
>>
>> The Blaster will pronbably do a good job of releasing any binding due to
>> corrosion etc. The '90 Civic manual strangely doesn't mention anywhere
>> which grease to use on the rear drum brake mechanism though it does mention
>> greasing all sliding parts;
>
>FWIW to anyone, Chilton's for 1984-1995 Civic/CRX/Del Sol says for the brake
>shoes:
>
>-cylinder grease on the pivot pin sliding surface
>
>-unspecified grease on the backing plate sliding surfaces (do not allow grease
>to contact brake linings)
>
>-unspecified grease on adjuster threads
>
>If I get into the drum brakes again, I'll probably just use the synthetic
>(silicone?) grease I bought at Autozone. It's red in color.
>
>I don't know what "cylinder grease" is. Chilton's has it being applied to the
>front disc brake piston boot, too. Like I posted to Jim, in the front I just
>used the red grease everywhere grease was specified.

I believe cylinder grease is silicone. I haven't seen the red stuff but I
have some Permatex blue stuff -- very sticky, tacky -- which is good for
caliper pins: very high temp and no solids in it which could cause it to
cake with age. I wouldn't use that sticky stuff on rubber boots, where I
think silicone is the only applicable grease. BTW I also disapprove of the
SilGlyde which some people have recommended - it has a lot of castor oil in
it which turns to gummy lacquer quite easily with heat.

>> for the front brakes it specifies silicone
>> grease everywhere... though the silicone grease I've found in auto-parts
>> stores always seems much too thin for the job. When I used to work in
>> labs, we had a nice thick silicone grease which would be perfect for the
>> job.
>
>I saw your posts of a few years ago about using dielectric grease, albeit
>ultimately with some concern that it was too light. I assume the dielectric
>grease is silicone-based, too, or you wouldn't have endorsed it then.
>
>Based on this, I actually did use dielectric grease for a few days on the front
>brakes. I had some handy and was still puzzling about the grease Jim was
>suggesting (which made sense; I just couldn't find anything locally that
>resembled it), what the manuals said, and what I was seeing at auto parts
>stores. So I threw the dielectric grease on the front caliper mounting pins for
>a few days during my "dry run" partial re-build. Then I considered the matter
>more.

That dielectric grease was labeled as such on the cardboard of the bubble
pack; on the tube it actually said it was applicable for brakes... and yes
it is silicone grease. I wish I knew someone who worked in a lab.:-)

>Several days later, the dielectric grease seemed to be fine--still in place,
>with the brakes working great. But once I bought the Autozone red caliper
>grease, I did note, as you did, that the consistency of the dielectric grease
>was lighter. Everything on the front brakes now has the red caliper grease.
>
>> I believe that later Helm/Honda manuals often specify a high-temp urea
>> grease for sliding parts of brake mechanisms.
>
>I think I'll revisit this two years from now at the next brake flush.
>
>Or whenever I hear odd noises from the brakes.
>
>snip
>> >> Yeah I've never been convinced that a self-adjusting mechanism, as
>> >> implemented, can work effectively in the environment it lives in after a
>> >> few years of lubricant burn-off, clag and corrosion build-up. If there's
>> >> any drag, it's easy to check the drum temps after a drive.
>> >
>> >Is this just a rough feel kind of test, based on experience? If not, your
>> >elaboration is welcome.
>>
>> If you suspect a binding brake it's a quick check. If they're only warm
>> there's nothing to worry about.
>
>Hm. I returned home tonight after ten-mile drive and put my hand on one of the
>drum backing plates. It was just hot enough to be a bit uncomfortable but cool
>enough that I could leave my hand there indefinitely without any injury. I think
>I'll do an inspection tomorrow. I want to figure out how that adjusting
>bolt/clevis ratchet mechanism works. By design, does it automatically back off
>under certain driving conditions? Or because of the ratchet, is the rotation
>only such that the shoes and drum move closer together, automatically providing
>for wear over time?
>
>In other words, if I did tighten the star wheel adjuster too much the other way,
>after some driving will it back off by itself?

I don't think it backs off - it just allows any excessive movement of the
shoes on braking to translate to the lever racheting the star wheel.

>It actually seems like it has just a wee bit, based on the parking brake feel.
>
>BTW, I embarked on this latest maintenance because of a post of yours several
>months ago suggesting to I think someone else that a brake caliper rebuild is a
>good idea for a car such-and-such years and miles old. No regrets. I've learned
>a lot and have a lot more peace of mind knowing precisely the condition of my
>brakes.

It *does* depend on where you live - in the frost belt, especially rear
calipers/rotors really get in a horrible mess; drums are a little better
protected.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

Caroline

"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote
> <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:
snip [I'm not sure what the relation between Haynes and Chilton is. My sense is
that Haynes is not nearly as complete as Chilton's, based on just a few perusals
of Haynes manuals in the last few years.]
> >If I get into the drum brakes again, I'll probably just use the synthetic
> >(silicone?) grease I bought at Autozone. It's red in color.
> >
> >I don't know what "cylinder grease" is. Chilton's has it being applied to the
> >front disc brake piston boot, too. Like I posted to Jim, in the front I just
> >used the red grease everywhere grease was specified.
>
> I believe cylinder grease is silicone.

Chilton front brake caliper illustrations have a legend for two different grease
symbols:

One grease symbol = "brake cylinder grease (P/N 08733-B020E) or equivalent
rubbber grease"

Second grease symbol = "Silicone grease"

Best I can figure is that Chilton's is out of synch with the latest grease
technology.

> I haven't seen the red stuff but I
> have some Permatex blue stuff -- very sticky, tacky -- which is good for
> caliper pins: very high temp and no solids in it which could cause it to
> cake with age.

Sounds like what Jim suggested and which, contrary to what I said earlier, is
readily available at places like Autozone.
http://www.permatex.com/auto/autouc....item&item_no=2
0355

I only found the little packets (no bottles) at about $5 a pop.

It seemed green in color to me, but maybe color blindness effects are kicking in
here.

For the record, the $2 packet of red-colored grease I bought at Autozone says,
"Disc Brake Caliper Lube, a high performance 100% synthetic lubricant formulated
for the most adverse brake conditions. Maximum protection for caliper pins,
sleeve, bushings and pistons. Exceptional operating range -35 F to 400 F.
Excellent resistant to water, rust, and corrosion."

> I wouldn't use that sticky stuff on rubber boots, where I
> think silicone is the only applicable grease. BTW I also disapprove of the
> SilGlyde which some people have recommended - it has a lot of castor oil in
> it which turns to gummy lacquer quite easily with heat.

I think I saw something that said it had castor oil and turned up my nose at it,
only because castor oil isn't synthetic nor silicone.

> >> for the front brakes it specifies silicone
> >> grease everywhere... though the silicone grease I've found in auto-parts
> >> stores always seems much too thin for the job. When I used to work in
> >> labs, we had a nice thick silicone grease which would be perfect for the
> >> job.
> >
> >I saw your posts of a few years ago about using dielectric grease, albeit
> >ultimately with some concern that it was too light. I assume the dielectric
> >grease is silicone-based, too, or you wouldn't have endorsed it then.
> >
> >Based on this, I actually did use dielectric grease for a few days on the
front
> >brakes. I had some handy and was still puzzling about the grease Jim was
> >suggesting (which made sense; I just couldn't find anything locally that
> >resembled it), what the manuals said, and what I was seeing at auto parts
> >stores. So I threw the dielectric grease on the front caliper mounting pins
for
> >a few days during my "dry run" partial re-build. Then I considered the matter
> >more.
>
> That dielectric grease was labeled as such on the cardboard of the bubble
> pack; on the tube it actually said it was applicable for brakes... and yes
> it is silicone grease. I wish I knew someone who worked in a lab.:-)

Yes, I looked for this. The info on the "Permatex dielectric tune-up grease" I
have currently does not say anything about being fine for brakes.

I think a few years ago you named some other manufacturer's dielectric grease,
though.

I'm not sweating it.

snip
> > I want to figure out how that adjusting
> >bolt/clevis ratchet mechanism works. By design, does it automatically back
off
> >under certain driving conditions? Or because of the ratchet, is the rotation
> >only such that the shoes and drum move closer together, automatically
providing
> >for wear over time?
> >
> >In other words, if I did tighten the star wheel adjuster too much the other
way,
> >after some driving will it back off by itself?
>
> I don't think it backs off - it just allows any excessive movement of the
> shoes on braking to translate to the lever racheting the star wheel.

Okay.

> >It actually seems like it has just a wee bit, based on the parking brake
feel.
> >
> >BTW, I embarked on this latest maintenance because of a post of yours several
> >months ago suggesting to I think someone else that a brake caliper rebuild is
a
> >good idea for a car such-and-such years and miles old. No regrets. I've
learned
> >a lot and have a lot more peace of mind knowing precisely the condition of my
> >brakes.
>
> It *does* depend on where you live - in the frost belt, especially rear
> calipers/rotors really get in a horrible mess; drums are a little better
> protected.

I understand. I felt entirely justified, having drove the car for over half its
life in the northern U.S. through a lot of snow and rain and not always garaged.
It does drive smoother and quieter after the brake rebuild job. Not a whole lot
of difference, but enough to be noticeable, in my estimation.

Caroline

"Rex B" <NOSPAMrex@REMOVEtxol.net> wrote
> On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 18:33:48 GMT, jim beam <uce@ftc.gov> wrote:
> ||if you need to, you can replace the rear cylinders without removing the
> ||shoe assembly.
> ||
> ||if you want to tackle the rear shoes, that's not such a big deal.
> ||despite the fact that it's often sworn at as being difficult to
> ||reassemble, i promise, it can be done without brute force, skinned
> ||knuckles and special tools. simply attach the brake cable, screw the
> ||adjuster bar all the way back in, fit the main tension spring, and you
> ||can then "puzzle" that essembly back into position in one piece. then
> ||you can fit the lower spring by hand and puzzle that into position also.
>
> The key to working on rear drums is to remove both drums, hose them off to get
> rid of the dust, then work on one side at a time. That way you can look at the
> other side if you get confused.

With the excellent incentive above and my 'ongoing pursuit of brake perfection,'
I dis-assembled one drum brake today almost completely. I only wanted to get at
the star wheel adjuster bolt and clevises to clean them up and apply some
grease. I did successfully fully remove these, PB Blastered the threads, and
then applied a very thin coat of the red synthetic grease.

Getting it back together was a bit tricky as implied above. A combination of the
Chilton instructions, a pretty decent illustration in Chilton's, and ultimately
checking the other side's assembled drum brake as needed, as Rex said, got it
back together.

Test drive: Sat.

Now I can replace brake shoes... that is, at least my car's.

As the kids say: Cool. :-)

George Macdonald

On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:15:11 GMT, "Caroline"
<caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:

>"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote
>> <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:
>snip [I'm not sure what the relation between Haynes and Chilton is. My sense is
>that Haynes is not nearly as complete as Chilton's, based on just a few perusals
>of Haynes manuals in the last few years.]
>> >If I get into the drum brakes again, I'll probably just use the synthetic
>> >(silicone?) grease I bought at Autozone. It's red in color.
>> >
>> >I don't know what "cylinder grease" is. Chilton's has it being applied to the
>> >front disc brake piston boot, too. Like I posted to Jim, in the front I just
>> >used the red grease everywhere grease was specified.
>>
>> I believe cylinder grease is silicone.
>
>Chilton front brake caliper illustrations have a legend for two different grease
>symbols:

Yep but if you look at the start of the maintenance section, where
lubricants/fluids are specified, there's no mention of special grease for
brake boots - just silicone.

>One grease symbol = "brake cylinder grease (P/N 08733-B020E) or equivalent
>rubbber grease"

That's a Honda part number -- mentioned in one place in my Helm/Honda 2K
Accord manual for drum brake sliding surfaces -- but I've no idea what
kind of grease it is. My bet: ask for it at a Honda parts dept. and
they'll say "the guys just use silicone or urea [choose one] for that". If
you insist, you'll get the "who's the looney" routine.

>Second grease symbol = "Silicone grease"
>
>Best I can figure is that Chilton's is out of synch with the latest grease
>technology.

Looks like they're being led by the nose by the Helm manual.:-) Honda used
to recommend silicone everywhere so I don't think you can go far wrong with
it.

>> I haven't seen the red stuff but I
>> have some Permatex blue stuff -- very sticky, tacky -- which is good for
>> caliper pins: very high temp and no solids in it which could cause it to
>> cake with age.
>
>Sounds like what Jim suggested and which, contrary to what I said earlier, is
>readily available at places like Autozone.
>http://www.permatex.com/auto/autouc....item&item_no=2
>0355
>
>I only found the little packets (no bottles) at about $5 a pop.
>
>It seemed green in color to me, but maybe color blindness effects are kicking in
>here.

Yep it's green. I just checked and I'd made a mistake there - the blue
stuff is Versachem's version of a similar product. I also have a jar of
Permatex stuff, which has a brush attached to inside the lid, which is
mauve... or it's changing color with age.:-) I dunno - every time I do a
brake job I go get the "stuff" and whether it's forgetfulness or just the
hope that I might find a "better widget", I often end up with err,
duplicates.:-)

>For the record, the $2 packet of red-colored grease I bought at Autozone says,
>"Disc Brake Caliper Lube, a high performance 100% synthetic lubricant formulated
>for the most adverse brake conditions. Maximum protection for caliper pins,
>sleeve, bushings and pistons. Exceptional operating range -35 F to 400 F.
>Excellent resistant to water, rust, and corrosion."

Sounds similar to the Permatex stuff but it mentions "does not harm rubber"
or some such thing. In general the synthetic greases do not harm rubber.

>> I wouldn't use that sticky stuff on rubber boots, where I
>> think silicone is the only applicable grease. BTW I also disapprove of the
>> SilGlyde which some people have recommended - it has a lot of castor oil in
>> it which turns to gummy lacquer quite easily with heat.
>
>I think I saw something that said it had castor oil and turned up my nose at it,
>only because castor oil isn't synthetic nor silicone.

The MSDS is here: http://www.imperialinc.com/msds0075150.shtml - 30-45%
castor oil plus a synthetic lube... a high %age and as I said it's not very
stable under oxidation with heat.

>> >> for the front brakes it specifies silicone
>> >> grease everywhere... though the silicone grease I've found in auto-parts
>> >> stores always seems much too thin for the job. When I used to work in
>> >> labs, we had a nice thick silicone grease which would be perfect for the
>> >> job.
>> >
>> >I saw your posts of a few years ago about using dielectric grease, albeit
>> >ultimately with some concern that it was too light. I assume the dielectric
>> >grease is silicone-based, too, or you wouldn't have endorsed it then.
>> >
>> >Based on this, I actually did use dielectric grease for a few days on the
>front
>> >brakes. I had some handy and was still puzzling about the grease Jim was
>> >suggesting (which made sense; I just couldn't find anything locally that
>> >resembled it), what the manuals said, and what I was seeing at auto parts
>> >stores. So I threw the dielectric grease on the front caliper mounting pins
>for
>> >a few days during my "dry run" partial re-build. Then I considered the matter
>> >more.
>>
>> That dielectric grease was labeled as such on the cardboard of the bubble
>> pack; on the tube it actually said it was applicable for brakes... and yes
>> it is silicone grease. I wish I knew someone who worked in a lab.:-)
>
>Yes, I looked for this. The info on the "Permatex dielectric tune-up grease" I
>have currently does not say anything about being fine for brakes.
>
>I think a few years ago you named some other manufacturer's dielectric grease,
>though.

Yes, the Versachem stuff, which is sold at Advance Auto-Parts... around
here anyway but those used to be Kar Parts stores which were sold off
recently. In fact I have two Versachem bubble packs - one labeled Spark
Plug grease/di-electric, the other Silicone Brake Grease - with the same
tube of "stuff" in them.:-)

<<snip>>

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??