Which To Buy?
 

We are in the USA. Granddaughter is looking to buy her first car. She is
talking Honda Civic. Don't know why, but she believes that is what she
wants. She will have about $5,000 (US) to spend. I lean toward something
not more than 5 years old. Haven't started looking but thought I would ask
this group for opinions re: a Civic. Are all Civics created equal or are
there certain models/years to stay away from?

Thanks for any help.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

DodgeDriver wrote:
> We are in the USA. Granddaughter is looking to buy her first car. She is
> talking Honda Civic. Don't know why, but she believes that is what she
> wants. She will have about $5,000 (US) to spend. I lean toward something
> not more than 5 years old. Haven't started looking but thought I would ask
> this group for opinions re: a Civic. Are all Civics created equal or are
> there certain models/years to stay away from?
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
>
you'll be lucky to find a civic under 5yo for $5k or less. but that's
ok, because while the ones that /do/ fit budget will be older, they'll
still be a good deal more reliable than a domestic the same price.
that's why the 5yo's cost more.

pretty much all post 88 civics are reliable and cheap to run. for
handling, the 88-2000's are the best [wishbone suspension]. just make
sure it's not been too badly crash damaged. be suspicious of anything
where the paint looks "too new". civics are good for mileage up to 300k
and beyond if well maintained.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

Tell her never to fall in love with something that can not love back.
Civics are great. So are Corollas, Camry's and Accords. Look for the best
one for the price she can afford to pay.


"DodgeDriver" <wingnut@invalid.net> wrote in message
news:12u6n2ua2si5k0d@corp.supernews.com...
> We are in the USA. Granddaughter is looking to buy her first car. She is
> talking Honda Civic. Don't know why, but she believes that is what she
> wants. She will have about $5,000 (US) to spend. I lean toward something
> not more than 5 years old. Haven't started looking but thought I would
> ask
> this group for opinions re: a Civic. Are all Civics created equal or are
> there certain models/years to stay away from?
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
>

Re: Which To Buy?
 

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:Yd6dnZc7msCOOn7YnZ2dnUVZ_umlnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> DodgeDriver wrote:
> > We are in the USA. Granddaughter is looking to buy her first car. She
is
> > talking Honda Civic. Don't know why, but she believes that is what she
> > wants. She will have about $5,000 (US) to spend. I lean toward
something
> > not more than 5 years old. Haven't started looking but thought I would
ask
> > this group for opinions re: a Civic. Are all Civics created equal or
are
> > there certain models/years to stay away from?
> >
> > Thanks for any help.
> >
> >
> you'll be lucky to find a civic under 5yo for $5k or less. but that's
> ok, because while the ones that /do/ fit budget will be older, they'll
> still be a good deal more reliable than a domestic the same price.
> that's why the 5yo's cost more.
>
> pretty much all post 88 civics are reliable and cheap to run. for
> handling, the 88-2000's are the best [wishbone suspension]. just make
> sure it's not been too badly crash damaged. be suspicious of anything
> where the paint looks "too new". civics are good for mileage up to 300k
> and beyond if well maintained.

Thanks for the info. I have not started to shop so didn't realy have any
idea as to the price range for used civics.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

Been there and done that. Thanks for the reminder. If granddaughter wants
a civic, and an accord (for example) is a better buy, grandmother will be an
obstacle that must be overcome.


"Art" <begunaNOSPAMPLEASE@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:%9REh.6375$_73.5611@newsread2.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> Tell her never to fall in love with something that can not love back.
> Civics are great. So are Corollas, Camry's and Accords. Look for the
best
> one for the price she can afford to pay.
>
>
> "DodgeDriver" <wingnut@invalid.net> wrote in message
> news:12u6n2ua2si5k0d@corp.supernews.com...
> > We are in the USA. Granddaughter is looking to buy her first car. She
is
> > talking Honda Civic. Don't know why, but she believes that is what she
> > wants. She will have about $5,000 (US) to spend. I lean toward
something
> > not more than 5 years old. Haven't started looking but thought I would
> > ask
> > this group for opinions re: a Civic. Are all Civics created equal or
are
> > there certain models/years to stay away from?
> >
> > Thanks for any help.
> >
> >
>
>

Re: Which To Buy?
 

On Feb 26, 5:17 pm, "DodgeDriver" <wing...@invalid.net> wrote:
> We are in the USA. Granddaughter is looking to buy her first car. She is
> talking Honda Civic. Don't know why, but she believes that is what she
> wants. She will have about $5,000 (US) to spend. I lean toward something
> not more than 5 years old. Haven't started looking but thought I would ask
> this group for opinions re: a Civic. Are all Civics created equal or are
> there certain models/years to stay away from?
>
> Thanks for any help.


$5k will buy you a 10 or so year old Civic here in NJ... I like them a
lot but was looking at Accords for my son (I wanted a little larger
car to compete with the SUV's). We ended up with a '99 Subaru Legacy
with AWD that he likes a lot. Paid well under $5k for it, too...

In addition to what the others have said, stay away from any car that
has been 'upgraded' with aftermarket air intakes, wheels, headlight/
taillights, etc. As you'll see, Civics are very popular with the tuner
crowd, but many of them have stuff added with no thought of how it
will work, just how it will look (or sound). Also look for one with
mechanical records, and preferably with the timing belt replaced.

Dan D
'07 Ody EX
Central NJ USA

Re: Which To Buy?
 

"Dano58" <dan.dibiase@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1172594632.986730.117380@m58g2000cwm.googlegr oups.com...
> On Feb 26, 5:17 pm, "DodgeDriver" <wing...@invalid.net> wrote:
> > We are in the USA. Granddaughter is looking to buy her first car. She
is
> > talking Honda Civic. Don't know why, but she believes that is what she
> > wants. She will have about $5,000 (US) to spend. I lean toward
something
> > not more than 5 years old. Haven't started looking but thought I would
ask
> > this group for opinions re: a Civic. Are all Civics created equal or
are
> > there certain models/years to stay away from?
> >
> > Thanks for any help.
>
>
> $5k will buy you a 10 or so year old Civic here in NJ... I like them a
> lot but was looking at Accords for my son (I wanted a little larger
> car to compete with the SUV's). We ended up with a '99 Subaru Legacy
> with AWD that he likes a lot. Paid well under $5k for it, too...
>
> In addition to what the others have said, stay away from any car that
> has been 'upgraded' with aftermarket air intakes, wheels, headlight/
> taillights, etc. As you'll see, Civics are very popular with the tuner
> crowd, but many of them have stuff added with no thought of how it
> will work, just how it will look (or sound). Also look for one with
> mechanical records, and preferably with the timing belt replaced.
>
> Dan D
> '07 Ody EX
> Central NJ USA
>
Thanks for the good info and suggestions. I started looking at prices this
morning.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

On Feb 26, 2:17 pm, "DodgeDriver" <wing...@invalid.net> wrote:
> We are in the USA. Granddaughter is looking to buy her first car. She is
> talking Honda Civic. Don't know why, but she believes that is what she
> wants. She will have about $5,000 (US) to spend. I lean toward something
> not more than 5 years old. Haven't started looking but thought I would ask
> this group for opinions re: a Civic. Are all Civics created equal or are
> there certain models/years to stay away from?
>
> Thanks for any help.

For $5k I'd buy an american over a jap car anyday.
Much better value and reliability because $5k buys you a dilapidated
jap car and an american car in very good shape.
Unless your daughter is a mechanic or runs a repair shop
I won't advise to buy a desirable fun car for that kind of
money. I suggest to get something some boring piece of junk that won't
fall apart next day.

Speaking of that, are 07 and 08 Civics any better than 06s
reliability wise?

Re: Which To Buy?
 

On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:12:34 -0800, isquat wrote:

> On Feb 26, 2:17 pm, "DodgeDriver" <wing...@invalid.net> wrote:
>> We are in the USA. Granddaughter is looking to buy her first car. She is
>> talking Honda Civic. Don't know why, but she believes that is what she
>> wants. She will have about $5,000 (US) to spend. I lean toward something
>> not more than 5 years old. Haven't started looking but thought I would ask
>> this group for opinions re: a Civic. Are all Civics created equal or are
>> there certain models/years to stay away from?
>>
>> Thanks for any help.
>
> For $5k I'd buy an american over a jap car anyday.
> Much better value and reliability because $5k buys you a dilapidated
> jap car and an american car in very good shape.

You smoke crack, don't you? 5K buys you an older jap car that still runs
longer and more reliably than the newer american scrap...

> Unless your daughter is a mechanic or runs a repair shop
> I won't advise to buy a desirable fun car for that kind of
> money. I suggest to get something some boring piece of junk that won't
> fall apart next day.
>
> Speaking of that, are 07 and 08 Civics any better than 06s
> reliability wise?

There are no 08 civics (or anything else). There have been no reliability
problems with 06 civics. Hell, my Si is almost a year old, and there has
not been a single recall for it. I don't remember ever having an American
car with no recalls...

Re: Which To Buy?
 

<isquat@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1172646754.546743.182470@m58g2000cwm.googlegr oups.com...
> On Feb 26, 2:17 pm, "DodgeDriver" <wing...@invalid.net> wrote:
>> We are in the USA. Granddaughter is looking to buy her first car. She
>> is
>> talking Honda Civic. Don't know why, but she believes that is what she
>> wants. She will have about $5,000 (US) to spend. I lean toward
>> something
>> not more than 5 years old. Haven't started looking but thought I would
>> ask
>> this group for opinions re: a Civic. Are all Civics created equal or are
>> there certain models/years to stay away from?
>>
>> Thanks for any help.
>
> For $5k I'd buy an american over a jap car anyday.
> Much better value and reliability because $5k buys you a dilapidated
> jap car and an american car in very good shape.
> Unless your daughter is a mechanic or runs a repair shop
> I won't advise to buy a desirable fun car for that kind of
> money. I suggest to get something some boring piece of junk that won't
> fall apart next day.
>
> Speaking of that, are 07 and 08 Civics any better than 06s
> reliability wise?
>

At $5K either a Japanese or American make can be a good deal, but either
will certainly need some attention in the years to come. Depending on where
you live, it can be hard to find a decent Honda or Toyota for $5K that is
less than seven or eight years old. With the American makes 5 years is
reasonable.

Definitely ask about specific cars (model and year) on the appropriate
newsgroups. The common experiences are going to be typical of what you can
expect and you will get warnings to check on various things. Ignore those at
your own risk!

One last word - if the engine uses a timing belt (and most engines from the
years you are looking at do) expect it to need changing immediately. Unless
you can get help from a serious DIYer expect to pay in the $500 range for
that.

Okay - my own prejudice... I don't like the reliability of Dodge/Chrysler
used cars.

Mike

Re: Which To Buy?
 

"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
news:y4WdndbAZMd_5njYnZ2dnUVZ_tCtnZ2d@sedona.net.. .
> <isquat@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1172646754.546743.182470@m58g2000cwm.googlegr oups.com...
> > On Feb 26, 2:17 pm, "DodgeDriver" <wing...@invalid.net> wrote:
> >> We are in the USA. Granddaughter is looking to buy her first car. She
> >> is
> >> talking Honda Civic.
[snipped]
> At $5K either a Japanese or American make can be a good deal, but either
> will certainly need some attention in the years to come. Depending on
where
> you live, it can be hard to find a decent Honda or Toyota for $5K that is
> less than seven or eight years old. With the American makes 5 years is
> reasonable.
>
> Definitely ask about specific cars (model and year) on the appropriate
> newsgroups. The common experiences are going to be typical of what you can
> expect and you will get warnings to check on various things. Ignore those
at
> your own risk!
>
> One last word - if the engine uses a timing belt (and most engines from
the
> years you are looking at do) expect it to need changing immediately.
Unless
> you can get help from a serious DIYer expect to pay in the $500 range for
> that.
>
> Okay - my own prejudice... I don't like the reliability of Dodge/Chrysler
> used cars.
>
> Mike
>
>
Thanks for your input.
I have just started looking at prices and looks like she might have to spend
more than planned.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

On Feb 28, 1:02 am, Joe LaVigne <jlavi...@hits-buffalo.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:12:34 -0800, isquat wrote:
> > On Feb 26, 2:17 pm, "DodgeDriver" <wing...@invalid.net> wrote:
> >> We are in the USA. Granddaughter is looking to buy her first car. She is
> >> talking Honda Civic. Don't know why, but she believes that is what she
> >> wants. She will have about $5,000 (US) to spend. I lean toward something
> >> not more than 5 years old. Haven't started looking but thought I would ask
> >> this group for opinions re: a Civic. Are all Civics created equal or are
> >> there certain models/years to stay away from?
>
> >> Thanks for any help.
>
> > For $5k I'd buy an american over a jap car anyday.
> > Much better value and reliability because $5k buys you a dilapidated
> > jap car and an american car in very good shape.
>
> You smoke crack, don't you? 5K buys you an older jap car that still runs
> longer and more reliably than the newer american scrap...
>
Whatever. I stand by my statement. $5k on a jap car
are likely to be flushed down the drain. At least that's my
experience with the jap cars in that range. Won't go there. Ever.

> > Unless your daughter is a mechanic or runs a repair shop
> > I won't advise to buy a desirable fun car for that kind of
> > money. I suggest to get something some boring piece of junk that won't
> > fall apart next day.
>
> > Speaking of that, are 07 and 08 Civics any better than 06s
> > reliability wise?
>
> There are no 08 civics (or anything else). There have been no

Yep. I stand corrected. No 08s just yet.

reliability
> problems with 06 civics. Hell, my Si is almost a year old, and there has
> not been a single recall for it. I don't remember ever having an American
> car with no recalls...

I believe your Si is made in Japan and DX thru LXes are made all
over the place. According to the previous posts here 06 civics
were nothing but trouble. Especially with the automatic geatboxes.
The don't make Si with an auto do they? My point exactly.
Si is a very special car in the Civic lineup and it's reliability
is not a good indicator of how DX, EX and LX fare.
I suspect Honda may have cleaned up its civic act for 07. Did it?

Re: Which To Buy?
 

On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 20:09:21 -0800, isquat wrote:

> On Feb 28, 1:02 am, Joe LaVigne <jlavi...@hits-buffalo.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:12:34 -0800, isquat wrote:
>> > On Feb 26, 2:17 pm, "DodgeDriver" <wing...@invalid.net> wrote:
>> >> We are in the USA. Granddaughter is looking to buy her first car. She is
>> >> talking Honda Civic. Don't know why, but she believes that is what she
>> >> wants. She will have about $5,000 (US) to spend. I lean toward something
>> >> not more than 5 years old. Haven't started looking but thought I would ask
>> >> this group for opinions re: a Civic. Are all Civics created equal or are
>> >> there certain models/years to stay away from?
>>
>> >> Thanks for any help.
>>
>> > For $5k I'd buy an american over a jap car anyday.
>> > Much better value and reliability because $5k buys you a dilapidated
>> > jap car and an american car in very good shape.
>>
>> You smoke crack, don't you? 5K buys you an older jap car that still runs
>> longer and more reliably than the newer american scrap...
>>
> Whatever. I stand by my statement. $5k on a jap car
> are likely to be flushed down the drain. At least that's my
> experience with the jap cars in that range. Won't go there. Ever.

Your experience is clearly BS. I'd rather have a 8 year old Accord (well
maintained) than a 5 year old GM, Chrysler or Ford product. Any day of
the week.

>
>> > Unless your daughter is a mechanic or runs a repair shop
>> > I won't advise to buy a desirable fun car for that kind of
>> > money. I suggest to get something some boring piece of junk that won't
>> > fall apart next day.
>>
>> > Speaking of that, are 07 and 08 Civics any better than 06s
>> > reliability wise?
>>
>> There are no 08 civics (or anything else). There have been no
>
> Yep. I stand corrected. No 08s just yet.
>
> reliability
>> problems with 06 civics. Hell, my Si is almost a year old, and there has
>> not been a single recall for it. I don't remember ever having an American
>> car with no recalls...
>
> I believe your Si is made in Japan and DX thru LXes are made all
> over the place. According to the previous posts here 06 civics
> were nothing but trouble. Especially with the automatic geatboxes.
> The don't make Si with an auto do they? My point exactly.
> Si is a very special car in the Civic lineup and it's reliability
> is not a good indicator of how DX, EX and LX fare.
> I suspect Honda may have cleaned up its civic act for 07. Did it?

And yet again, you'd be wrong. My Si was assembled in Ontario, using
parts from the US, Canada and Japan.

The last time there was a common problem with a Honda Auto Tranny it was
02 in the Accords and Odyssey lines using a V6. I know a couple people
with 06 Civics with Auto Tranny, and they have had no problems...

Re: Which To Buy?
 

On Feb 28, 8:18 pm, Joe LaVigne <jlavi...@hits-buffalo.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 20:09:21 -0800, isquat wrote:
> > On Feb 28, 1:02 am, Joe LaVigne <jlavi...@hits-buffalo.com> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:12:34 -0800, isquat wrote:
> >> > On Feb 26, 2:17 pm, "DodgeDriver" <wing...@invalid.net> wrote:
> >> >> We are in the USA. Granddaughter is looking to buy her first car. She is
> >> >> talking Honda Civic. Don't know why, but she believes that is what she
> >> >> wants. She will have about $5,000 (US) to spend. I lean toward something
> >> >> not more than 5 years old. Haven't started looking but thought I would ask
> >> >> this group for opinions re: a Civic. Are all Civics created equal or are
> >> >> there certain models/years to stay away from?
>
> >> >> Thanks for any help.
>
> >> > For $5k I'd buy an american over a jap car anyday.
> >> > Much better value and reliability because $5k buys you a dilapidated
> >> > jap car and an american car in very good shape.
>
> >> You smoke crack, don't you? 5K buys you an older jap car that still runs
> >> longer and more reliably than the newer american scrap...
>
> > Whatever. I stand by my statement. $5k on a jap car
> > are likely to be flushed down the drain. At least that's my
> > experience with the jap cars in that range. Won't go there. Ever.
>
> Your experience is clearly BS. I'd rather have a 8 year old Accord (well
> maintained) than a 5 year old GM, Chrysler or Ford product. Any day of
> the week.

My experience might be BS but I can assure you that the money flushed
the drain on my old Subaru were very real. No old used cars for me jap
or otherwise thank you very much. The reliability is way overhyped.

> > is not a good indicator of how DX, EX and LX fare.
> > I suspect Honda may have cleaned up its civic act for 07. Did it?
>
> And yet again, you'd be wrong. My Si was assembled in Ontario, using
> parts from the US, Canada and Japan.
>
> The last time there was a common problem with a Honda Auto Tranny it was
> 02 in the Accords and Odyssey lines using a V6. I know a couple people
> with 06 Civics with Auto Tranny, and they have had no problems...

You have a representative sample don't you?
And I have $10k flushed on a 7 y.o. Legacy that I paid $7k for.

Then when I was shopping for a car three years ago I stop
by a Honda dealer to see what they had.
Well, they had a 3-4 y.o. civic with 50-60k miles on it
and the dealer wanted $9600 or so for it. $10k for a stinky
piece of "certified" junk with a half the juice taken out of it? It
was probably due for a timing belt and gawd knows what else.
I went straight to the Mazda dealer and bought a 1 y.o. Protege with
3k on odometer. Very clean and no stench. Granted, Civic has a better
shifting
tranny and a smooth motor to match but I feel that I got
a much better value (and unlike Corolla the car is a hoot to drive)
If I were to replace my car and I were in snowbelt I'd get a new Civic
Si. A used one?
Given the depreciation rates for Hondas: no bloody way!
I'm not a complete moron. Used Hondas (Toyolets and Subarus too)
are WAY overpriced.
So I stand by my recommendation to OP to look elsewhere for a used
car.

Just my $.02.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 22:46:39 -0800, isquat wrote:

> My experience might be BS but I can assure you that the money flushed
> the drain on my old Subaru were very real. No old used cars for me jap
> or otherwise thank you very much. The reliability is way overhyped.

SNIP

>
> Just my $.02.

Ahh, I see... So you are in a Honda newsgroup complaining about civics
because you feel you paid too much for your Subaru. Good logic...

Re: Which To Buy?
 

<isquat@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1172731599.454447.135480@k78g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
>
> My experience might be BS but I can assure you that the money flushed
> the drain on my old Subaru were very real. No old used cars for me jap
> or otherwise thank you very much. The reliability is way overhyped.

You're badmouthing Honda based on your experience with Subaru. That
makes no sense what-so-ever.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

isquat@gmail.com wrote:
> On Feb 26, 2:17 pm, "DodgeDriver" <wing...@invalid.net> wrote:
>> We are in the USA. Granddaughter is looking to buy her first car. She is
>> talking Honda Civic. Don't know why, but she believes that is what she
>> wants. She will have about $5,000 (US) to spend. I lean toward something
>> not more than 5 years old. Haven't started looking but thought I would ask
>> this group for opinions re: a Civic. Are all Civics created equal or are
>> there certain models/years to stay away from?
>>
>> Thanks for any help.
>
> For $5k I'd buy an american over a jap car anyday.

Your bias is evident in your use of an ethnic slur in your reply, making
your opinion even more worthless than most.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

On Mar 1, 1:06 am, "Brian Smith" <Hali...@NovaScotia.Canada> wrote:
> <isq...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1172731599.454447.135480@k78g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
>
>
>
> > My experience might be BS but I can assure you that the money flushed
> > the drain on my old Subaru were very real. No old used cars for me jap
> > or otherwise thank you very much. The reliability is way overhyped.
>
> You're badmouthing Honda based on your experience with Subaru. That
> makes no sense what-so-ever.

I was explaining to the OP that there are better deals and that
for $5k he can get a car in better shape if he shops elsewhere.
I don't have a problem if he buys a new Civic but a used one
is not a good value that's all. I think I explained already
that CIvic Si is on the list of my protege replacements
along with RX-8 and EVO. (Mazdaspeed 3 won't cut it for me).
In case you wonder what I'm doing on this NG in the first place.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

<isquat@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1172769362.483037.44050@31g2000cwt.googlegrou ps.com...
>
> I was explaining to the OP that there are better deals and that
> for $5k he can get a car in better shape if he shops elsewhere.
> I don't have a problem if he buys a new Civic but a used one
> is not a good value that's all. I think I explained already
> that CIvic Si is on the list of my protege replacements
> along with RX-8 and EVO. (Mazdaspeed 3 won't cut it for me).
> In case you wonder what I'm doing on this NG in the first place.

From the experiences I have had over the years with any of the BIG 3
companies products, there is no way that any of them come close to being
better than a Honda.

I have owned GM and Ford vehicles that have more rattles, squeaks and
shakes than a ten year old Honda.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

isquat@gmail.com wrote:
>
> My experience might be BS but I can assure you that the money flushed
> the drain on my old Subaru were very real. No old used cars for me jap
> or otherwise thank you very much. The reliability is way overhyped.

Well, you're the poor sap who bought a used Subaru. Hondas and Toyotas
are much more reliable. Nissans are more like VWs - they'll last a long
time too, but demand careful maintenance.

--
Mike Smith

Re: Which To Buy?
 

Brian Smith wrote:
> <isquat@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1172769362.483037.44050@31g2000cwt.googlegrou ps.com...
>> I was explaining to the OP that there are better deals and that
>> for $5k he can get a car in better shape if he shops elsewhere.
>> I don't have a problem if he buys a new Civic but a used one
>> is not a good value that's all. I think I explained already
>> that CIvic Si is on the list of my protege replacements
>> along with RX-8 and EVO. (Mazdaspeed 3 won't cut it for me).
>> In case you wonder what I'm doing on this NG in the first place.
>
> From the experiences I have had over the years with any of the BIG 3
> companies products, there is no way that any of them come close to being
> better than a Honda.
>
> I have owned GM and Ford vehicles that have more rattles, squeaks and
> shakes than a ten year old Honda.

I got rid of a Saturn (LS2) after 2 1/2 years 'cause of the rattles and
noises it was making. And it was only book valued at $8k by that time,
after having spent $21k for it new. I hear the Aura is much better, but
I'll let someone else risk their money.

--
Mike Smith

Re: Which To Buy?
 

On 3/2/07 10:38 PM, in article 12uhuus5j7l371a@news.supernews.com, "Mike
Smith" <mike_UNDERSCORE_smith@acm.DOT.org> wrote:

> isquat@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> My experience might be BS but I can assure you that the money flushed
>> the drain on my old Subaru were very real. No old used cars for me jap
>> or otherwise thank you very much. The reliability is way overhyped.
>
> Well, you're the poor sap who bought a used Subaru. Hondas and Toyotas
> are much more reliable. Nissans are more like VWs - they'll last a long
> time too, but demand careful maintenance.
>
> --
> Mike Smith

Where did you get that tidbit? I have found the opposite to be true. The
Hondas need more tlc than the Nissans.

My Nissans (6 and counting) have all required less maintenance than my
Hondas. Their ABS doesn't fail if you don't change the brake fluid every
two years, their transmissions don't fail if you don't change the tranny
fluid every two years, etc.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

"E Meyer" <epmeyer50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:C20EE20E.20447%epmeyer50@msn.com...
>
> Where did you get that tidbit? I have found the opposite to be true. The
> Hondas need more tlc than the Nissans.
>
> My Nissans (6 and counting) have all required less maintenance than my
> Hondas. Their ABS doesn't fail if you don't change the brake fluid every
> two years, their transmissions don't fail if you don't change the tranny
> fluid every two years, etc.

Brake fluid deteriorates as does transmission fluid. It only makes sense
to change fluids to prolong the life of the machinery.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

On 3/3/07 8:32 AM, in article lGfGh.2690$Du6.2230@edtnps82, "Brian Smith"
<Halifax@NovaScotia.Canada> wrote:

>
> "E Meyer" <epmeyer50@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:C20EE20E.20447%epmeyer50@msn.com...
>>
>> Where did you get that tidbit? I have found the opposite to be true. The
>> Hondas need more tlc than the Nissans.
>>
>> My Nissans (6 and counting) have all required less maintenance than my
>> Hondas. Their ABS doesn't fail if you don't change the brake fluid every
>> two years, their transmissions don't fail if you don't change the tranny
>> fluid every two years, etc.
>
> Brake fluid deteriorates as does transmission fluid. It only makes sense
> to change fluids to prolong the life of the machinery.
>
>
Whether it makes sense is not the point. The point is that it doesn't
matter with the Nissans and it definitely does on the Hondas.

In fact, unlike Honda, changing brake fluid is not on the maintenance list
for any of the Nissans and changing transmission fluid is only by condition,
not time or mileage.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

"E Meyer" <epmeyer50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:C20F1105.20465%epmeyer50@msn.com...
>
> Whether it makes sense is not the point. The point is that it doesn't
> matter with the Nissans and it definitely does on the Hondas.

But it matters to people who perform preventative maintenace on their
vehicles.

> In fact, unlike Honda, changing brake fluid is not on the maintenance
> list
> for any of the Nissans and changing transmission fluid is only by
> condition,
> not time or mileage.

Just because Nissan forgot to include it on heir 'list' doesn't mean
that it doesn't have (or shouldn't) be changed.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

"E Meyer" <epmeyer50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:C20F1105.20465%epmeyer50@msn.com...
>
> Whether it makes sense is not the point. The point is that it doesn't
> matter with the Nissans and it definitely does on the Hondas.
>
> In fact, unlike Honda, changing brake fluid is not on the maintenance
> list
> for any of the Nissans and changing transmission fluid is only by
> condition,
> not time or mileage.

I should add that I am the manager for a truck fleet (all automatic
transmission equipped), the transmission fluid and filtres are replaced
every year as part of the fleet's preventative maintenance program.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

Brian Smith wrote:
> "E Meyer" <epmeyer50@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:C20F1105.20465%epmeyer50@msn.com...
>> Whether it makes sense is not the point. The point is that it doesn't
>> matter with the Nissans and it definitely does on the Hondas.
>>
>> In fact, unlike Honda, changing brake fluid is not on the maintenance
>> list
>> for any of the Nissans and changing transmission fluid is only by
>> condition,
>> not time or mileage.
>
> I should add that I am the manager for a truck fleet (all automatic
> transmission equipped), the transmission fluid and filtres are replaced
> every year as part of the fleet's preventative maintenance program.
>
>
what's that based on? analysis? manufacturer spec?

Re: Which To Buy?
 

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:IsSdnbINqdMXRHTYnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
> what's that based on? analysis? manufacturer spec?

Common sense, really. Since implementing this procedure, transmission
problems and failures have ceased to occur. The replacement of the
transmission fluid and the filtres cost in the range of $300.00 to $400.00,
much less expensive than repairing or replacing an Allison transmission in a
large truck.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

Brian Smith wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:IsSdnbINqdMXRHTYnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>> what's that based on? analysis? manufacturer spec?
>
> Common sense, really. Since implementing this procedure, transmission
> problems and failures have ceased to occur. The replacement of the
> transmission fluid and the filtres cost in the range of $300.00 to $400.00,
> much less expensive than repairing or replacing an Allison transmission in a
> large truck.
>
>
i'm interested to know - have you established from testing that the
lower failure rate is a function of this maint. schedule, or has allison
changed anything in their transmissions? and what was the failure mode?
metal fatigue for instance is not known to be influenced by oil filter
cleanliness. clutch life isn't rally affected by it either. operation
tends to get less smooth as particulates accumulate, but that's not
necessarily going to affect overall life of the transmission.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:RJOdnX0uKYdcf3TYnZ2dnUVZ_qSrnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
> i'm interested to know - have you established from testing that the lower
> failure rate is a function of this maint. schedule, or has allison changed
> anything in their transmissions? and what was the failure mode? metal
> fatigue for instance is not known to be influenced by oil filter
> cleanliness. clutch life isn't rally affected by it either. operation
> tends to get less smooth as particulates accumulate, but that's not
> necessarily going to affect overall life of the transmission.

In the past the transmission fluid and filtres hadn't been changed
except when the transmissions displayed problems (not shifting correctly,
jumping in and out of gear). Once I implemented the yearly changes, there
have been no further issues with any of the transmissions. The down time
that was experienced in the past was a killer on the schedules. They are
specialized trucks and one can't rent replacements from Ryder, so they have
to be working properly every day, all day long.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

On 3/3/07 1:50 PM, in article nkkGh.3242$cE3.3113@edtnps89, "Brian Smith"
<Halifax@NovaScotia.Canada> wrote:

>
> "E Meyer" <epmeyer50@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:C20F1105.20465%epmeyer50@msn.com...
>>
>> Whether it makes sense is not the point. The point is that it doesn't
>> matter with the Nissans and it definitely does on the Hondas.
>>
>> In fact, unlike Honda, changing brake fluid is not on the maintenance
>> list
>> for any of the Nissans and changing transmission fluid is only by
>> condition,
>> not time or mileage.
>
> I should add that I am the manager for a truck fleet (all automatic
> transmission equipped), the transmission fluid and filtres are replaced
> every year as part of the fleet's preventative maintenance program.
>
>

Good for you. I think it is completely safe to say the vast majority of car
owners do whatever maintenance is specified by the owners manual or less,
not more. If it is all that important, the manufacturer would have
specified something.

I'm talking about maintenance religiously conducted according to
manufacturer's recommendations, no more, no less. If you follow the books
to the letter, Honda requires more upkeep than Nissan does.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

E Meyer wrote:

> I'm talking about maintenance religiously conducted according to
> manufacturer's recommendations, no more, no less. If you follow the books
> to the letter, Honda requires more upkeep than Nissan does.

And the end result is that Hondas experience less non-routine problems than
Nissans do.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

Brian Smith wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:RJOdnX0uKYdcf3TYnZ2dnUVZ_qSrnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>> i'm interested to know - have you established from testing that the lower
>> failure rate is a function of this maint. schedule, or has allison changed
>> anything in their transmissions? and what was the failure mode? metal
>> fatigue for instance is not known to be influenced by oil filter
>> cleanliness. clutch life isn't rally affected by it either. operation
>> tends to get less smooth as particulates accumulate, but that's not
>> necessarily going to affect overall life of the transmission.
>
> In the past the transmission fluid and filtres hadn't been changed
> except when the transmissions displayed problems (not shifting correctly,
> jumping in and out of gear). Once I implemented the yearly changes, there
> have been no further issues with any of the transmissions. The down time
> that was experienced in the past was a killer on the schedules. They are
> specialized trucks and one can't rent replacements from Ryder, so they have
> to be working properly every day, all day long.
>

ok, if filter clogging is an issue, then it's good to change them.

this should have been revealed in failure analysis though, not be the
result of what is, with respect, a pretty much random maintenance
schedule. in an ideal world, you'd have had the manufacturer work with
you to figure this stuff out, not just gouge you for new transmissions.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:W7Wdnd5mtqJQ1nfYnZ2dnUVZ_tWhnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
> ok, if filter clogging is an issue, then it's good to change them.
>
> this should have been revealed in failure analysis though, not be the
> result of what is, with respect, a pretty much random maintenance
> schedule. in an ideal world, you'd have had the manufacturer work with
> you to figure this stuff out, not just gouge you for new transmissions.

I know what you're saying, but we don't live in an ideal world <g>.
Doing what I did was the logical step towards solving the problem(s), with
Allison's labour rate of $105.00 an hour it doesn't take long to waste a
grand when looking for the answer.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

"E Meyer" <epmeyer50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:C20F9F27.20485%epmeyer50@msn.com...
>
> Good for you. I think it is completely safe to say the vast majority of
> car
> owners do whatever maintenance is specified by the owners manual or less,
> not more. If it is all that important, the manufacturer would have
> specified something.

True enough.

> I'm talking about maintenance religiously conducted according to
> manufacturer's recommendations, no more, no less. If you follow the books
> to the letter, Honda requires more upkeep than Nissan does.

I'll agree with you on this partly. I have a friend who purchased his
Nissan within a week of me purchasing my Honda. He does less than 70% of the
preventative maintenance that I do and he's had more problems than I have
experienced with my last three Honda vehicles. On top of that, three years
into our purchases his Nissan has a fair amount of rust on his gas tank and
the floor of the car, as well as a number of mechanical failures.My Honda
had none of these problems. Preventative maintenance is the key.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

Brian Smith wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:W7Wdnd5mtqJQ1nfYnZ2dnUVZ_tWhnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>> ok, if filter clogging is an issue, then it's good to change them.
>>
>> this should have been revealed in failure analysis though, not be the
>> result of what is, with respect, a pretty much random maintenance
>> schedule. in an ideal world, you'd have had the manufacturer work with
>> you to figure this stuff out, not just gouge you for new transmissions.
>
> I know what you're saying, but we don't live in an ideal world <g>.
> Doing what I did was the logical step towards solving the problem(s), with
> Allison's labour rate of $105.00 an hour it doesn't take long to waste a
> grand when looking for the answer.
>
>
but for stuff like that, i don't think you should be paying - you should
have one of the allison design team down there resolving your problem.
from a manufacturer perspective, they need as much field service
feedback as possible to make sure your stuff works properly. if nobody
bothers to let the design team know [not the service tech] that their
filters clog outside of the lab, they'll never deal with it. here in
san francisco, a number of the taxi companies run fleets sponsored by
auto makers so we have all the latest and greatest of their vehicles in
taxi livery charging up and down the badly pot-holed streets, hills,
etc. they do this so they can install "black box" data recorders in
them and find out how their vehicles perform in "real world" for a hilly
city. they do it in las vegas too for heat. if they have the data,
they can design accordingly. no data, inadequate design.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:dvudnR4ETsZ8fnfYnZ2dnUVZ_rGinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
> but for stuff like that, i don't think you should be paying - you should
> have one of the allison design team down there resolving your problem.
> from a manufacturer perspective, they need as much field service feedback
> as possible to make sure your stuff works properly. if nobody bothers to
> let the design team know [not the service tech] that their filters clog
> outside of the lab, they'll never deal with it. here in san francisco, a
> number of the taxi companies run fleets sponsored by auto makers so we
> have all the latest and greatest of their vehicles in taxi livery charging
> up and down the badly pot-holed streets, hills, etc. they do this so they
> can install "black box" data recorders in them and find out how their
> vehicles perform in "real world" for a hilly city. they do it in las
> vegas too for heat. if they have the data, they can design accordingly.
> no data, inadequate design.

I do understand what you are saying, but a small fleet of trucks doesn't
seem to draw their attention. I would think that one truck having problems
with their product would garner attention, but not yet.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

Brian Smith wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:dvudnR4ETsZ8fnfYnZ2dnUVZ_rGinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>> but for stuff like that, i don't think you should be paying - you should
>> have one of the allison design team down there resolving your problem.
>> from a manufacturer perspective, they need as much field service feedback
>> as possible to make sure your stuff works properly. if nobody bothers to
>> let the design team know [not the service tech] that their filters clog
>> outside of the lab, they'll never deal with it. here in san francisco, a
>> number of the taxi companies run fleets sponsored by auto makers so we
>> have all the latest and greatest of their vehicles in taxi livery charging
>> up and down the badly pot-holed streets, hills, etc. they do this so they
>> can install "black box" data recorders in them and find out how their
>> vehicles perform in "real world" for a hilly city. they do it in las
>> vegas too for heat. if they have the data, they can design accordingly.
>> no data, inadequate design.
>
> I do understand what you are saying, but a small fleet of trucks doesn't
> seem to draw their attention. I would think that one truck having problems
> with their product would garner attention, but not yet.
>
>
it's also possible, depending on their business model, that they don't
want to resolve the issue - either a local or corporate decision. when
i was a pup at university, one of my professors did some consulting work
with one of the big auto manufacturers to help them limit the life of
their transmissions via metal fatigue. [it's a very hard technical
problem because things tend to either break right away, or last
forever.] but the point is, life limitation is very much on the agenda
in certain situations. i'm not sure it would be for commercial
applications, at least from a corporate standpoint, but you may have
been up against local sales quotas, and failures are a sales opportunity.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:Poidnf3GXfo3cnfYnZ2dnUVZ_sqdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
> it's also possible, depending on their business model, that they don't
> want to resolve the issue - either a local or corporate decision. when i
> was a pup at university, one of my professors did some consulting work
> with one of the big auto manufacturers to help them limit the life of
> their transmissions via metal fatigue. [it's a very hard technical
> problem because things tend to either break right away, or last forever.]
> but the point is, life limitation is very much on the agenda in certain
> situations. i'm not sure it would be for commercial applications, at
> least from a corporate standpoint, but you may have been up against local
> sales quotas, and failures are a sales opportunity.

All true.

Re: Which To Buy?
 

On 3/3/07 10:12 PM, in article 1wwlhu5vswi03.dlg@hightech.misfit, "High Tech
Misfit" <me@privacy.net> wrote:

> E Meyer wrote:
>
>> I'm talking about maintenance religiously conducted according to
>> manufacturer's recommendations, no more, no less. If you follow the books
>> to the letter, Honda requires more upkeep than Nissan does.
>
> And the end result is that Hondas experience less non-routine problems than
> Nissans do.

I really haven't seen that result on the ones I've directly experienced.
Given my limited experiences (6 Hondas and 6 Nissans over about 18 years), I
have to say the vote goes in the other direction.

The only non-routine problems I've treated on Nissans have been the
occasional engine compartment electrical connector that needed
cleaning/reseating (plagues the '02 Pathfinder) and periodic throttle body
cleaning ('91 240sx and '96 I30).

With the Hondas, we've had ABS systems fail on two out of two mid 90's cars
('95 Integra & '96 Odyssey) and one transmission failure ('00 TL). These
cars were well maintained with brake fluid changes and transmission fluid
changes according to the published schedules. Clearly design flaws. Honda
made good on the transmission, but they never owned up to the ABS problems
on those cars.