NG

Hi,
I pulled out main relay from my car because of the problem I described
in this thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.a...f87e517f697e4d

I took pictures of it and uploaded here:
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/gnishkar/car/Cover.JPG
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/gnishkar/car/borad1.JPG
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/gnishkar/car/board2.JPG
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/gnishkar/car/board3.JPG
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/gnishkar/car/board4.JPG

Can you tell me whether the joins are OK or I have to buy new relay?
Thanks a lot for your help.
Regards,
NG

Jonathan Upright

NG wrote:
> Hi,
> I pulled out main relay from my car because of the problem I described
> in this thread:
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.a...f87e517f697e4d
>
> I took pictures of it and uploaded here:
> http://filebox.vt.edu/users/gnishkar/car/Cover.JPG
> http://filebox.vt.edu/users/gnishkar/car/borad1.JPG
> http://filebox.vt.edu/users/gnishkar/car/board2.JPG
> http://filebox.vt.edu/users/gnishkar/car/board3.JPG
> http://filebox.vt.edu/users/gnishkar/car/board4.JPG
>
> Can you tell me whether the joins are OK or I have to buy new relay?
> Thanks a lot for your help.
> Regards,
> NG

Although there is no way to be 100% certain that my diagnoses are
correct without looking at the unit myself, not at a photo of it, I
still made my best effort to study the image and based on what the image
portrays, I have labeled the contacts that appear to have cracked solder
with a red 'X' and ones that are questionable with a '?'. I resoldered
my main relay myself with a 25-watt soldering iron and it works like a
charm now. If you don't have a 25-watt soldering iron, you can buy one
pretty cheap, or just borrow one from somebody who does. DO NOT use a
high-powered soldering gun (75+ watts) for they can scorch the circuit
board and ruin the relay. Just melt the solder back down and eliminate
all the hair-line cracks. You may or may not have to add more solder to
the joints, depending on how badly the cracking is. (Radio Shack should
have the correct solder)

Good luck!

Jonathan

P.S. Observe: http://www.k-townfurniture.com/mainrelayfix.jpg

NG

Hi Jonathan:
Thanks a lot for your help. I'll solder those points. Thanks again
NG

Burt S.

"Jonathan Upright" <qaesar1@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message news:FCrcf.3671$Ea3.918010@twister.southeast.rr.co m...

> Just melt the solder back down and eliminate
> all the hair-line cracks. You may or may not have to add more solder to
> the joints, depending on how badly the cracking is. (Radio Shack should
> have the correct solder)

The old solder on the dry joint is now a bad conductor and has no
flux. Re-melting the solder most likely will result with a solder joint failure.
The car may stall just like a bad igniton switch.

The correct method is to remove the old solder. Use rosin core solder
or buy a rosin paste flux and a standard solder.

NG

Thanks for the tip!
NG

Burt S. wrote:
> "Jonathan Upright" <qaesar1@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message news:FCrcf.3671$Ea3.918010@twister.southeast.rr.co m...
>
> > Just melt the solder back down and eliminate
> > all the hair-line cracks. You may or may not have to add more solder to
> > the joints, depending on how badly the cracking is. (Radio Shack should
> > have the correct solder)
>
> The old solder on the dry joint is now a bad conductor and has no
> flux. Re-melting the solder most likely will result with a solder joint failure.
> The car may stall just like a bad igniton switch.
>
> The correct method is to remove the old solder. Use rosin core solder
> or buy a rosin paste flux and a standard solder.

jim beam

Jonathan Upright wrote:
> NG wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> I pulled out main relay from my car because of the problem I described
>> in this thread:
>> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.a...f87e517f697e4d
>>
>>
>> I took pictures of it and uploaded here:
>> http://filebox.vt.edu/users/gnishkar/car/Cover.JPG
>> http://filebox.vt.edu/users/gnishkar/car/borad1.JPG
>> http://filebox.vt.edu/users/gnishkar/car/board2.JPG
>> http://filebox.vt.edu/users/gnishkar/car/board3.JPG
>> http://filebox.vt.edu/users/gnishkar/car/board4.JPG
>>
>> Can you tell me whether the joins are OK or I have to buy new relay?
>> Thanks a lot for your help. Regards,
>> NG
>
>
> Although there is no way to be 100% certain that my diagnoses are
> correct without looking at the unit myself, not at a photo of it, I
> still made my best effort to study the image and based on what the image
> portrays, I have labeled the contacts that appear to have cracked solder
> with a red 'X' and ones that are questionable with a '?'. I resoldered
> my main relay myself with a 25-watt soldering iron and it works like a
> charm now. If you don't have a 25-watt soldering iron, you can buy one
> pretty cheap, or just borrow one from somebody who does. DO NOT use a
> high-powered soldering gun (75+ watts) for they can scorch the circuit
> board and ruin the relay.

it's good to be prudent, but a 75W iron shouldn't scorch anything - it's
supposed to be the same temperature as the 25W iron. what it /is/
however is clumsy, and clumsiness can lead to bridging - /not/ a good idea!

> Just melt the solder back down and eliminate
> all the hair-line cracks. You may or may not have to add more solder to
> the joints, depending on how badly the cracking is. (Radio Shack should
> have the correct solder)

personally, i like to fully de-solder and re-solder from scratch. the
cracks are full of oxides and simple remelting leaves those oxides in
place. it'll work, but it'll crack again soon after.

>
> Good luck!
>
> Jonathan
>
> P.S. Observe: http://www.k-townfurniture.com/mainrelayfix.jpg

Michael Pardee

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:0oqdnfB3Y9wBjeneRVn-tA@speakeasy.net...
> it's good to be prudent, but a 75W iron shouldn't scorch anything - it's
> supposed to be the same temperature as the 25W iron. what it /is/ however
> is clumsy, and clumsiness can lead to bridging - /not/ a good idea!
>
> personally, i like to fully de-solder and re-solder from scratch. the
> cracks are full of oxides and simple remelting leaves those oxides in
> place. it'll work, but it'll crack again soon after.
>
Count me in on that. My favorite technique will probably cause the soldering
purists to faint, but... I hold the work upside down, if possible, and let
the old solder run onto the iron tip. When the tip starts to get blooby
(technical term) I shake it off onto the work bench or kitchen table covered
with newspapers or whatever. The connection is already tinned, and a touch
of fresh rosin-core solder makes it nice again.

I agree the wattage isn't as important as the handling. Don't press the tip
on the printed traces in any case, and you'll do fine.

Mike

Burt S.

"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message news:RrWdnf0_1c99huneRVn-gA@sedona.net...

> Count me in on that. My favorite technique will probably cause the soldering
> purists to faint, but... I hold the work upside down, if possible, and let
> the old solder run onto the iron tip.

A copper wire could be used as a copper braid. Just add flux paste on
the copper wire then suck up the remains.

> When the tip starts to get blooby (technical term) I shake it off
> onto the work bench or kitchen table covered with newspapers or whatever.

When I was five I thought solder BB's in the kitchen are excellent toys. :~)
Until I've found out that their health hazards mostly affect children.

> I agree the wattage isn't as important as the handling. Don't press the tip
> on the printed traces in any case, and you'll do fine.

The high wattage would probably destroy the flux in no time. A 25W is
affordable, accurate and portable.

jim beam

Burt S. wrote:
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message news:RrWdnf0_1c99huneRVn-gA@sedona.net...
>
>
>>Count me in on that. My favorite technique will probably cause the soldering
>>purists to faint, but... I hold the work upside down, if possible, and let
>>the old solder run onto the iron tip.
>
>
> A copper wire could be used as a copper braid. Just add flux paste on
> the copper wire then suck up the remains.
>
>
>>When the tip starts to get blooby (technical term) I shake it off
>>onto the work bench or kitchen table covered with newspapers or whatever.
>
>
> When I was five I thought solder BB's in the kitchen are excellent toys. :~)
> Until I've found out that their health hazards mostly affect children.
>
>
>>I agree the wattage isn't as important as the handling. Don't press the tip
>>on the printed traces in any case, and you'll do fine.
>
>
> The high wattage would probably destroy the flux in no time.

how? a soldering iron at 250C [or whatever it is] is a soldering iron
at 250C!!! all the wattage does is ensure it can heat larger objects
quicker by dumping more heat into it. otherwise the built-in thermostat
ensures temperature constancy.

A 25W is
> affordable, accurate and portable.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Remco

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:0oqdnfB3Y9wBjeneRVn-tA@speakeasy.net...
> > it's good to be prudent, but a 75W iron shouldn't scorch anything - it's
> > supposed to be the same temperature as the 25W iron. what it /is/ however
> > is clumsy, and clumsiness can lead to bridging - /not/ a good idea!
> >
> > personally, i like to fully de-solder and re-solder from scratch. the
> > cracks are full of oxides and simple remelting leaves those oxides in
> > place. it'll work, but it'll crack again soon after.
> >
> Count me in on that. My favorite technique will probably cause the soldering
> purists to faint, but... I hold the work upside down, if possible, and let
> the old solder run onto the iron tip. When the tip starts to get blooby
> (technical term) I shake it off onto the work bench or kitchen table covered
> with newspapers or whatever. The connection is already tinned, and a touch
> of fresh rosin-core solder makes it nice again.

A solder sucker is a good idea too. Radio Shack or Fry's has them and
they are cheap.

I've been using a derivative of this technique as well. I actually
hold whatever needs desoldering in my hand and when blooby, bang my
hand on the table - it throws the solder onto the table.
Just be careful following either technique: Getting solder spashes in
your eye is not much fun. (ask me how I know



>
> I agree the wattage isn't as important as the handling. Don't press the tip
> on the printed traces in any case, and you'll do fine.
>
> Mike

Jim Yanik

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:0oqdnfB3Y9wBjeneRVn-tA@speakeasy.net:


>
> it's good to be prudent, but a 75W iron shouldn't scorch anything -
> it's supposed to be the same temperature as the 25W iron. what it
> /is/ however is clumsy, and clumsiness can lead to bridging - /not/ a
> good idea!


Those soldering guns just take too long to get up to temp,that's why they
damage things;the person holds the tip to the workpiece while it is still
heating up.
And big soldering irons have too much thermal mass for some items.they
store so much heat in the tip that it overheats the foil and causes it to
delaminate.

But I used a 60W weller with a 1/4" tip to resolder my MR,no problem.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Jim Yanik

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:xIadnSIw0_enNeneRVn-hg@speakeasy.net:

> Burt S. wrote:
>> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
>> news:RrWdnf0_1c99huneRVn-gA@sedona.net...
>>
>>
>>>Count me in on that. My favorite technique will probably cause the
>>>soldering purists to faint, but... I hold the work upside down, if
>>>possible, and let the old solder run onto the iron tip.
>>
>>
>> A copper wire could be used as a copper braid. Just add flux paste on
>> the copper wire then suck up the remains.
>>
>>
>>>When the tip starts to get blooby (technical term) I shake it off
>>>onto the work bench or kitchen table covered with newspapers or
>>>whatever.
>>
>>
>> When I was five I thought solder BB's in the kitchen are excellent
>> toys. :~) Until I've found out that their health hazards mostly
>> affect children.
>>
>>
>>>I agree the wattage isn't as important as the handling. Don't press
>>>the tip on the printed traces in any case, and you'll do fine.
>>
>>
>> The high wattage would probably destroy the flux in no time.
>
> how? a soldering iron at 250C [or whatever it is] is a soldering iron
> at 250C!!! all the wattage does is ensure it can heat larger objects
> quicker by dumping more heat into it. otherwise the built-in
> thermostat ensures temperature constancy.

And that is where the problem is;too much heat transfer too quickly.

The soldering GUNS take too long to heat up,and thus the user holds it to
the work for too long a time,the total heat transferred is way too much for
PCBs and small parts.

It's not only temp,but time+temp that matters.




--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Burt S.

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message news:xIadnSIw0_enNeneRVn-hg@speakeasy.net...

> how? a soldering iron at 250C [or whatever it is] is a
> soldering iron at 250C!!!

Wattage does count, as that's what generates the heat. I
wouldn't recommend an extremely high-Watt constant power
soldering iron. This wouldn't be appropriate for a beginner.
Higher heat is acceptable (or preferred) when skilled techs are
experienced with the higher temps. Typically, an effective iron
tip is supposedly (400C) 750F /25 Watt.

>all the wattage does is ensure it can heat larger objects
> quicker by dumping more heat into it.

It's the heat capacity that matters most, and that's a combination
of a large enough tip to transfer the heat quickly, and enough
wattage to generate the heat.

> otherwise the built-in thermostat
> ensures temperature constancy.

Not all soldering irons are temperature-controlled. There is a
*huge* difference between constant power and constant
temp irons.

jim beam

Burt S. wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message news:xIadnSIw0_enNeneRVn-hg@speakeasy.net...
>
>
>>how? a soldering iron at 250C [or whatever it is] is a
>>soldering iron at 250C!!!
>
>
> Wattage does count, as that's what generates the heat. I
> wouldn't recommend an extremely high-Watt constant power
> soldering iron. This wouldn't be appropriate for a beginner.
> Higher heat is acceptable (or preferred) when skilled techs are
> experienced with the higher temps. Typically, an effective iron
> tip is supposedly (400C) 750F /25 Watt.
>
>
>>all the wattage does is ensure it can heat larger objects
>>quicker by dumping more heat into it.
>
>
> It's the heat capacity that matters most, and that's a combination
> of a large enough tip to transfer the heat quickly, and enough
> wattage to generate the heat.
>
>
>>otherwise the built-in thermostat
>>ensures temperature constancy.
>
>
> Not all soldering irons are temperature-controlled. There is a
> *huge* difference between constant power and constant
> temp irons.

ok, but can you explain to the class exactly how a 25W iron at 400C is
"hotter" than a 60W iron at 400C? thanks.

jim beam

Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
> news:xIadnSIw0_enNeneRVn-hg@speakeasy.net:
>
>
>>Burt S. wrote:
>>
>>>"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
>>>news:RrWdnf0_1c99huneRVn-gA@sedona.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Count me in on that. My favorite technique will probably cause the
>>>>soldering purists to faint, but... I hold the work upside down, if
>>>>possible, and let the old solder run onto the iron tip.
>>>
>>>
>>>A copper wire could be used as a copper braid. Just add flux paste on
>>>the copper wire then suck up the remains.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>When the tip starts to get blooby (technical term) I shake it off
>>>>onto the work bench or kitchen table covered with newspapers or
>>>>whatever.
>>>
>>>
>>>When I was five I thought solder BB's in the kitchen are excellent
>>>toys. :~) Until I've found out that their health hazards mostly
>>>affect children.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I agree the wattage isn't as important as the handling. Don't press
>>>>the tip on the printed traces in any case, and you'll do fine.
>>>
>>>
>>>The high wattage would probably destroy the flux in no time.
>>
>>how? a soldering iron at 250C [or whatever it is] is a soldering iron
>>at 250C!!! all the wattage does is ensure it can heat larger objects
>>quicker by dumping more heat into it. otherwise the built-in
>>thermostat ensures temperature constancy.
>
>
> And that is where the problem is;too much heat transfer too quickly.
>
> The soldering GUNS take too long to heat up,and thus the user holds it to
> the work for too long a time,the total heat transferred is way too much for
> PCBs and small parts.
>
> It's not only temp,but time+temp that matters.

that's a much better explanation. but i think what you really mean is
that it comes down to the skill of the operator. when i repair my
relays, i use a 63W hakko iron. it's magnificent! great heat control.
huge thermal capacity. makes the whole job real quick and simple. a
25w weller doesn't have the heat capacity to make a good quick job of
every joint because some of them are the relay chassis, and they are
huge heat sinks. attempting to solder those with too low wattage takes
ages and as you say prolonged heating is much more likely to lead to damage.