Civic Hybrid or Prius owners...
09-03-2004, 01:44 PM
#31
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Civic Hybrid or Prius owners...
wait a minute - if your diesel hybrid has the same batteries and has to
go to the same dealer, where's the difference?...
the diesel-electric concept is ancient. railroad engines have been
using them for decades. it's not the mechanical concepts; it's the
limited battery life/cost equation locking you into the dealer and their
opportunity for gouging that i have a problem with. congress sees fit
to mandate that obdc II is "open" to prevent dealer lock-in. unless
congress has the same foresight regarding hybrids, and i don't see how
it can force manufacturers to use the same battery packs - a totally
different proposition to a $2 port on an embedded computer, then the
hybrid is going to be what i said, a manufacturers dream.
Al Smith wrote:
> Wait a minute.
>
> In my HUMBLE opinion the dream car would be
> a hybrid diesel. Apparently, nobody has a grasp
> of BOTH techniques.
>
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:aKqdnagz7s2nEqXcRVn-uQ@comcast.com...
>
>>to a large extent, the hybrid is the auto makers dream. batteries have
>>a limited life, replacement is prohibitively expensive, and it can't be
>>done by joes garage down the street - it has to be done by the dealer,
>>if at all. therefore, guess what? you have dealer lock-in! every 5
>>years or so, you /have/ to pay a fortune or buy a new car!!! it's
>>absolutely an auto makers dream.
>>
>>personally, i think diesel is a good solution. at the refinery level,
>>the fuel's cheaper to produce than gas, less gets used, and you have the
>>freedom of a mechanical system that is not locked into one specific
>>provider.
>>
>>Artfulcodger wrote:
>>
>>>I too viewed that hybrid show on PBS and found it of real interest.
>>>71 mpg for city driving in a Prius at $30,000 CDN sure gets my
>
> attention.
>
>>>Whether or not that is cost effective or not, it has to be darn close.
>>>I have wondered however about battery life and what to do when it's
>
> toast.
>
>>>At this point long term results must only be theory but by the time I am
>>>ready for a new vehicle (2 years) I am sure the choice will be greater
>
> and
>
>>>the longevity somewhat more proven and maybe even better economics.
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>
>>>ickd wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>i really got interested in hybrids after watching a show on pbs with
>>>>alan alda(anyone see it?)and iceland is leading the way in hydrogen
>>>>hybrids,hydrogen/electric.i want a hybrid because i'm sick of
>>>>sending money to the middle east,i want a more eco friendly
>>>>car,better mileage,less pollution.to me so what if they're a little
>>>>more expensive,it's the priciple,it's time we find a way to lessen
>>>>our depenece on oil and find alternative sources of
>>>>energy(hydrogen,solar,wind,electric,etc.).di d you see the bike on
>>>>american chopper that runs on either gas or ethanol? great idea if
>>>>you ask me. "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
>>>>message news:elmop-13F529.06160203092004@text.usenetserver.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>In article <P8SZc.2466$Vl5.629@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.n et>,
>>>>>jajabinks <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Why question people's buying decisions? What are you trying to
>>>>>>accomplish?
>>>>>
>>>>>He didn't specify what help he was looking for; it's common for
>>>>>people not to have thought about things in a big picture way, and
>>>>>it's helpful for them to explain their real goals and get input.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
go to the same dealer, where's the difference?...
the diesel-electric concept is ancient. railroad engines have been
using them for decades. it's not the mechanical concepts; it's the
limited battery life/cost equation locking you into the dealer and their
opportunity for gouging that i have a problem with. congress sees fit
to mandate that obdc II is "open" to prevent dealer lock-in. unless
congress has the same foresight regarding hybrids, and i don't see how
it can force manufacturers to use the same battery packs - a totally
different proposition to a $2 port on an embedded computer, then the
hybrid is going to be what i said, a manufacturers dream.
Al Smith wrote:
> Wait a minute.
>
> In my HUMBLE opinion the dream car would be
> a hybrid diesel. Apparently, nobody has a grasp
> of BOTH techniques.
>
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:aKqdnagz7s2nEqXcRVn-uQ@comcast.com...
>
>>to a large extent, the hybrid is the auto makers dream. batteries have
>>a limited life, replacement is prohibitively expensive, and it can't be
>>done by joes garage down the street - it has to be done by the dealer,
>>if at all. therefore, guess what? you have dealer lock-in! every 5
>>years or so, you /have/ to pay a fortune or buy a new car!!! it's
>>absolutely an auto makers dream.
>>
>>personally, i think diesel is a good solution. at the refinery level,
>>the fuel's cheaper to produce than gas, less gets used, and you have the
>>freedom of a mechanical system that is not locked into one specific
>>provider.
>>
>>Artfulcodger wrote:
>>
>>>I too viewed that hybrid show on PBS and found it of real interest.
>>>71 mpg for city driving in a Prius at $30,000 CDN sure gets my
>
> attention.
>
>>>Whether or not that is cost effective or not, it has to be darn close.
>>>I have wondered however about battery life and what to do when it's
>
> toast.
>
>>>At this point long term results must only be theory but by the time I am
>>>ready for a new vehicle (2 years) I am sure the choice will be greater
>
> and
>
>>>the longevity somewhat more proven and maybe even better economics.
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>
>>>ickd wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>i really got interested in hybrids after watching a show on pbs with
>>>>alan alda(anyone see it?)and iceland is leading the way in hydrogen
>>>>hybrids,hydrogen/electric.i want a hybrid because i'm sick of
>>>>sending money to the middle east,i want a more eco friendly
>>>>car,better mileage,less pollution.to me so what if they're a little
>>>>more expensive,it's the priciple,it's time we find a way to lessen
>>>>our depenece on oil and find alternative sources of
>>>>energy(hydrogen,solar,wind,electric,etc.).di d you see the bike on
>>>>american chopper that runs on either gas or ethanol? great idea if
>>>>you ask me. "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
>>>>message news:elmop-13F529.06160203092004@text.usenetserver.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>In article <P8SZc.2466$Vl5.629@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.n et>,
>>>>>jajabinks <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Why question people's buying decisions? What are you trying to
>>>>>>accomplish?
>>>>>
>>>>>He didn't specify what help he was looking for; it's common for
>>>>>people not to have thought about things in a big picture way, and
>>>>>it's helpful for them to explain their real goals and get input.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
09-03-2004, 02:26 PM
#32
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Civic Hybrid or Prius owners...
In article
<zK%Zc.191972$UTP.135564@twister01.bloor.is.net.ca ble.rogers.com>,
"Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote:
> I have wondered however about battery life and what to do when it's toast.
Yep.
Those who want hybrids say "it's the principle" but they DON'T take into
account the big picture: that those batteries take resources to build
and dispose of, etc.
No, those who say "it's the principle" generally focus on one thing out
of context. Sure, you're sending less money to the middle East (and
everywhere else that supplies oil, including the US). But maybe you're
actually polluting the environment more in the long run, with the
resources required to manufacture and dispose of the batteries.
<zK%Zc.191972$UTP.135564@twister01.bloor.is.net.ca ble.rogers.com>,
"Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote:
> I have wondered however about battery life and what to do when it's toast.
Yep.
Those who want hybrids say "it's the principle" but they DON'T take into
account the big picture: that those batteries take resources to build
and dispose of, etc.
No, those who say "it's the principle" generally focus on one thing out
of context. Sure, you're sending less money to the middle East (and
everywhere else that supplies oil, including the US). But maybe you're
actually polluting the environment more in the long run, with the
resources required to manufacture and dispose of the batteries.
09-03-2004, 02:26 PM
#33
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Civic Hybrid or Prius owners...
In article
<zK%Zc.191972$UTP.135564@twister01.bloor.is.net.ca ble.rogers.com>,
"Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote:
> I have wondered however about battery life and what to do when it's toast.
Yep.
Those who want hybrids say "it's the principle" but they DON'T take into
account the big picture: that those batteries take resources to build
and dispose of, etc.
No, those who say "it's the principle" generally focus on one thing out
of context. Sure, you're sending less money to the middle East (and
everywhere else that supplies oil, including the US). But maybe you're
actually polluting the environment more in the long run, with the
resources required to manufacture and dispose of the batteries.
<zK%Zc.191972$UTP.135564@twister01.bloor.is.net.ca ble.rogers.com>,
"Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote:
> I have wondered however about battery life and what to do when it's toast.
Yep.
Those who want hybrids say "it's the principle" but they DON'T take into
account the big picture: that those batteries take resources to build
and dispose of, etc.
No, those who say "it's the principle" generally focus on one thing out
of context. Sure, you're sending less money to the middle East (and
everywhere else that supplies oil, including the US). But maybe you're
actually polluting the environment more in the long run, with the
resources required to manufacture and dispose of the batteries.
09-03-2004, 02:27 PM
#34
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Civic Hybrid or Prius owners...
In article <aKqdnagz7s2nEqXcRVn-uQ@comcast.com>,
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:
> personally, i think diesel is a good solution. at the refinery level,
> the fuel's cheaper to produce than gas, less gets used, and you have the
> freedom of a mechanical system that is not locked into one specific
> provider.
Not to mention an engine that history has shown tends to last a lot
longer than gasoline engines overall.
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:
> personally, i think diesel is a good solution. at the refinery level,
> the fuel's cheaper to produce than gas, less gets used, and you have the
> freedom of a mechanical system that is not locked into one specific
> provider.
Not to mention an engine that history has shown tends to last a lot
longer than gasoline engines overall.
09-03-2004, 02:27 PM
#35
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Civic Hybrid or Prius owners...
In article <aKqdnagz7s2nEqXcRVn-uQ@comcast.com>,
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:
> personally, i think diesel is a good solution. at the refinery level,
> the fuel's cheaper to produce than gas, less gets used, and you have the
> freedom of a mechanical system that is not locked into one specific
> provider.
Not to mention an engine that history has shown tends to last a lot
longer than gasoline engines overall.
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:
> personally, i think diesel is a good solution. at the refinery level,
> the fuel's cheaper to produce than gas, less gets used, and you have the
> freedom of a mechanical system that is not locked into one specific
> provider.
Not to mention an engine that history has shown tends to last a lot
longer than gasoline engines overall.
09-03-2004, 04:13 PM
#36
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Civic Hybrid or Prius owners...
"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:w6OdnRl7OYjwMKXcRVn-qQ@comcast.com...
> wait a minute - if your diesel hybrid has the same batteries and has to
> go to the same dealer, where's the difference?...
Obvious. A diesel is about 15% more efficient than an Otto. That's
the difference. Although there is no efficiency increase from
eliminating ignition advance, there is still significant efficiency
increase.
>
> the diesel-electric concept is ancient. railroad engines have been
> using them for decades.
Not with regenerative braking.
it's not the mechanical concepts; it's the
> limited battery life/cost equation locking you into the dealer and their
> opportunity for gouging that i have a problem with. congress sees fit
> to mandate that obdc II is "open" to prevent dealer lock-in. unless
> congress has the same foresight regarding hybrids, and i don't see how
> it can force manufacturers to use the same battery packs - a totally
> different proposition to a $2 port on an embedded computer, then the
> hybrid is going to be what i said, a manufacturers dream.
>
???????
> Al Smith wrote:
> > Wait a minute.
> >
> > In my HUMBLE opinion the dream car would be
> > a hybrid diesel. Apparently, nobody has a grasp
> > of BOTH techniques.
> >
> > "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> > news:aKqdnagz7s2nEqXcRVn-uQ@comcast.com...
> >
> >>to a large extent, the hybrid is the auto makers dream. batteries have
> >>a limited life, replacement is prohibitively expensive, and it can't be
> >>done by joes garage down the street - it has to be done by the dealer,
> >>if at all. therefore, guess what? you have dealer lock-in! every 5
> >>years or so, you /have/ to pay a fortune or buy a new car!!! it's
> >>absolutely an auto makers dream.
> >>
> >>personally, i think diesel is a good solution. at the refinery level,
> >>the fuel's cheaper to produce than gas, less gets used, and you have the
> >>freedom of a mechanical system that is not locked into one specific
> >>provider.
> >>
> >>Artfulcodger wrote:
> >>
> >>>I too viewed that hybrid show on PBS and found it of real interest.
> >>>71 mpg for city driving in a Prius at $30,000 CDN sure gets my
> >
> > attention.
> >
> >>>Whether or not that is cost effective or not, it has to be darn close.
> >>>I have wondered however about battery life and what to do when it's
> >
> > toast.
> >
> >>>At this point long term results must only be theory but by the time I
am
> >>>ready for a new vehicle (2 years) I am sure the choice will be greater
> >
> > and
> >
> >>>the longevity somewhat more proven and maybe even better economics.
> >>>
> >>>Mike
> >>>
> >>>ickd wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>i really got interested in hybrids after watching a show on pbs with
> >>>>alan alda(anyone see it?)and iceland is leading the way in hydrogen
> >>>>hybrids,hydrogen/electric.i want a hybrid because i'm sick of
> >>>>sending money to the middle east,i want a more eco friendly
> >>>>car,better mileage,less pollution.to me so what if they're a little
> >>>>more expensive,it's the priciple,it's time we find a way to lessen
> >>>>our depenece on oil and find alternative sources of
> >>>>energy(hydrogen,solar,wind,electric,etc.).di d you see the bike on
> >>>>american chopper that runs on either gas or ethanol? great idea if
> >>>>you ask me. "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
> >>>>message news:elmop-13F529.06160203092004@text.usenetserver.com...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>In article <P8SZc.2466$Vl5.629@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.n et>,
> >>>>>jajabinks <user@example.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Why question people's buying decisions? What are you trying to
> >>>>>>accomplish?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>He didn't specify what help he was looking for; it's common for
> >>>>>people not to have thought about things in a big picture way, and
> >>>>>it's helpful for them to explain their real goals and get input.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
>
09-03-2004, 04:13 PM
#37
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Civic Hybrid or Prius owners...
"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:w6OdnRl7OYjwMKXcRVn-qQ@comcast.com...
> wait a minute - if your diesel hybrid has the same batteries and has to
> go to the same dealer, where's the difference?...
Obvious. A diesel is about 15% more efficient than an Otto. That's
the difference. Although there is no efficiency increase from
eliminating ignition advance, there is still significant efficiency
increase.
>
> the diesel-electric concept is ancient. railroad engines have been
> using them for decades.
Not with regenerative braking.
it's not the mechanical concepts; it's the
> limited battery life/cost equation locking you into the dealer and their
> opportunity for gouging that i have a problem with. congress sees fit
> to mandate that obdc II is "open" to prevent dealer lock-in. unless
> congress has the same foresight regarding hybrids, and i don't see how
> it can force manufacturers to use the same battery packs - a totally
> different proposition to a $2 port on an embedded computer, then the
> hybrid is going to be what i said, a manufacturers dream.
>
???????
> Al Smith wrote:
> > Wait a minute.
> >
> > In my HUMBLE opinion the dream car would be
> > a hybrid diesel. Apparently, nobody has a grasp
> > of BOTH techniques.
> >
> > "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> > news:aKqdnagz7s2nEqXcRVn-uQ@comcast.com...
> >
> >>to a large extent, the hybrid is the auto makers dream. batteries have
> >>a limited life, replacement is prohibitively expensive, and it can't be
> >>done by joes garage down the street - it has to be done by the dealer,
> >>if at all. therefore, guess what? you have dealer lock-in! every 5
> >>years or so, you /have/ to pay a fortune or buy a new car!!! it's
> >>absolutely an auto makers dream.
> >>
> >>personally, i think diesel is a good solution. at the refinery level,
> >>the fuel's cheaper to produce than gas, less gets used, and you have the
> >>freedom of a mechanical system that is not locked into one specific
> >>provider.
> >>
> >>Artfulcodger wrote:
> >>
> >>>I too viewed that hybrid show on PBS and found it of real interest.
> >>>71 mpg for city driving in a Prius at $30,000 CDN sure gets my
> >
> > attention.
> >
> >>>Whether or not that is cost effective or not, it has to be darn close.
> >>>I have wondered however about battery life and what to do when it's
> >
> > toast.
> >
> >>>At this point long term results must only be theory but by the time I
am
> >>>ready for a new vehicle (2 years) I am sure the choice will be greater
> >
> > and
> >
> >>>the longevity somewhat more proven and maybe even better economics.
> >>>
> >>>Mike
> >>>
> >>>ickd wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>i really got interested in hybrids after watching a show on pbs with
> >>>>alan alda(anyone see it?)and iceland is leading the way in hydrogen
> >>>>hybrids,hydrogen/electric.i want a hybrid because i'm sick of
> >>>>sending money to the middle east,i want a more eco friendly
> >>>>car,better mileage,less pollution.to me so what if they're a little
> >>>>more expensive,it's the priciple,it's time we find a way to lessen
> >>>>our depenece on oil and find alternative sources of
> >>>>energy(hydrogen,solar,wind,electric,etc.).di d you see the bike on
> >>>>american chopper that runs on either gas or ethanol? great idea if
> >>>>you ask me. "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
> >>>>message news:elmop-13F529.06160203092004@text.usenetserver.com...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>In article <P8SZc.2466$Vl5.629@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.n et>,
> >>>>>jajabinks <user@example.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Why question people's buying decisions? What are you trying to
> >>>>>>accomplish?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>He didn't specify what help he was looking for; it's common for
> >>>>>people not to have thought about things in a big picture way, and
> >>>>>it's helpful for them to explain their real goals and get input.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
>
09-03-2004, 05:49 PM
#38
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Civic Hybrid or Prius owners...
al, we're talking about different things. i'm taking about business
ethics - you're talking about what amounts to thermodynamics.
how about we agree our subject before we continue this conversation?
Al Smith wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:w6OdnRl7OYjwMKXcRVn-qQ@comcast.com...
>
>>wait a minute - if your diesel hybrid has the same batteries and has to
>>go to the same dealer, where's the difference?...
>
>
> Obvious. A diesel is about 15% more efficient than an Otto. That's
> the difference. Although there is no efficiency increase from
> eliminating ignition advance, there is still significant efficiency
> increase.
>
>
>>the diesel-electric concept is ancient. railroad engines have been
>>using them for decades.
>
>
> Not with regenerative braking.
>
> it's not the mechanical concepts; it's the
>
>>limited battery life/cost equation locking you into the dealer and their
>>opportunity for gouging that i have a problem with. congress sees fit
>>to mandate that obdc II is "open" to prevent dealer lock-in. unless
>>congress has the same foresight regarding hybrids, and i don't see how
>>it can force manufacturers to use the same battery packs - a totally
>>different proposition to a $2 port on an embedded computer, then the
>>hybrid is going to be what i said, a manufacturers dream.
>>
>
>
> ???????
>
>
>>Al Smith wrote:
>>
>>>Wait a minute.
>>>
>>>In my HUMBLE opinion the dream car would be
>>>a hybrid diesel. Apparently, nobody has a grasp
>>>of BOTH techniques.
>>>
>>>"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
>>>news:aKqdnagz7s2nEqXcRVn-uQ@comcast.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>to a large extent, the hybrid is the auto makers dream. batteries have
>>>>a limited life, replacement is prohibitively expensive, and it can't be
>>>>done by joes garage down the street - it has to be done by the dealer,
>>>>if at all. therefore, guess what? you have dealer lock-in! every 5
>>>>years or so, you /have/ to pay a fortune or buy a new car!!! it's
>>>>absolutely an auto makers dream.
>>>>
>>>>personally, i think diesel is a good solution. at the refinery level,
>>>>the fuel's cheaper to produce than gas, less gets used, and you have the
>>>>freedom of a mechanical system that is not locked into one specific
>>>>provider.
>>>>
>>>>Artfulcodger wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I too viewed that hybrid show on PBS and found it of real interest.
>>>>>71 mpg for city driving in a Prius at $30,000 CDN sure gets my
>>>
>>>attention.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Whether or not that is cost effective or not, it has to be darn close.
>>>>>I have wondered however about battery life and what to do when it's
>>>
>>>toast.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>At this point long term results must only be theory but by the time I
>
> am
>
>>>>>ready for a new vehicle (2 years) I am sure the choice will be greater
>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>
>>>>>the longevity somewhat more proven and maybe even better economics.
>>>>>
>>>>>Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>ickd wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>i really got interested in hybrids after watching a show on pbs with
>>>>>>alan alda(anyone see it?)and iceland is leading the way in hydrogen
>>>>>>hybrids,hydrogen/electric.i want a hybrid because i'm sick of
>>>>>>sending money to the middle east,i want a more eco friendly
>>>>>>car,better mileage,less pollution.to me so what if they're a little
>>>>>>more expensive,it's the priciple,it's time we find a way to lessen
>>>>>>our depenece on oil and find alternative sources of
>>>>>>energy(hydrogen,solar,wind,electric,etc.).di d you see the bike on
>>>>>>american chopper that runs on either gas or ethanol? great idea if
>>>>>>you ask me. "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
>>>>>>message news:elmop-13F529.06160203092004@text.usenetserver.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In article <P8SZc.2466$Vl5.629@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.n et>,
>>>>>>>jajabinks <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Why question people's buying decisions? What are you trying to
>>>>>>>>accomplish?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>He didn't specify what help he was looking for; it's common for
>>>>>>>people not to have thought about things in a big picture way, and
>>>>>>>it's helpful for them to explain their real goals and get input.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>
>
ethics - you're talking about what amounts to thermodynamics.
how about we agree our subject before we continue this conversation?
Al Smith wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:w6OdnRl7OYjwMKXcRVn-qQ@comcast.com...
>
>>wait a minute - if your diesel hybrid has the same batteries and has to
>>go to the same dealer, where's the difference?...
>
>
> Obvious. A diesel is about 15% more efficient than an Otto. That's
> the difference. Although there is no efficiency increase from
> eliminating ignition advance, there is still significant efficiency
> increase.
>
>
>>the diesel-electric concept is ancient. railroad engines have been
>>using them for decades.
>
>
> Not with regenerative braking.
>
> it's not the mechanical concepts; it's the
>
>>limited battery life/cost equation locking you into the dealer and their
>>opportunity for gouging that i have a problem with. congress sees fit
>>to mandate that obdc II is "open" to prevent dealer lock-in. unless
>>congress has the same foresight regarding hybrids, and i don't see how
>>it can force manufacturers to use the same battery packs - a totally
>>different proposition to a $2 port on an embedded computer, then the
>>hybrid is going to be what i said, a manufacturers dream.
>>
>
>
> ???????
>
>
>>Al Smith wrote:
>>
>>>Wait a minute.
>>>
>>>In my HUMBLE opinion the dream car would be
>>>a hybrid diesel. Apparently, nobody has a grasp
>>>of BOTH techniques.
>>>
>>>"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
>>>news:aKqdnagz7s2nEqXcRVn-uQ@comcast.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>to a large extent, the hybrid is the auto makers dream. batteries have
>>>>a limited life, replacement is prohibitively expensive, and it can't be
>>>>done by joes garage down the street - it has to be done by the dealer,
>>>>if at all. therefore, guess what? you have dealer lock-in! every 5
>>>>years or so, you /have/ to pay a fortune or buy a new car!!! it's
>>>>absolutely an auto makers dream.
>>>>
>>>>personally, i think diesel is a good solution. at the refinery level,
>>>>the fuel's cheaper to produce than gas, less gets used, and you have the
>>>>freedom of a mechanical system that is not locked into one specific
>>>>provider.
>>>>
>>>>Artfulcodger wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I too viewed that hybrid show on PBS and found it of real interest.
>>>>>71 mpg for city driving in a Prius at $30,000 CDN sure gets my
>>>
>>>attention.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Whether or not that is cost effective or not, it has to be darn close.
>>>>>I have wondered however about battery life and what to do when it's
>>>
>>>toast.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>At this point long term results must only be theory but by the time I
>
> am
>
>>>>>ready for a new vehicle (2 years) I am sure the choice will be greater
>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>
>>>>>the longevity somewhat more proven and maybe even better economics.
>>>>>
>>>>>Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>ickd wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>i really got interested in hybrids after watching a show on pbs with
>>>>>>alan alda(anyone see it?)and iceland is leading the way in hydrogen
>>>>>>hybrids,hydrogen/electric.i want a hybrid because i'm sick of
>>>>>>sending money to the middle east,i want a more eco friendly
>>>>>>car,better mileage,less pollution.to me so what if they're a little
>>>>>>more expensive,it's the priciple,it's time we find a way to lessen
>>>>>>our depenece on oil and find alternative sources of
>>>>>>energy(hydrogen,solar,wind,electric,etc.).di d you see the bike on
>>>>>>american chopper that runs on either gas or ethanol? great idea if
>>>>>>you ask me. "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
>>>>>>message news:elmop-13F529.06160203092004@text.usenetserver.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In article <P8SZc.2466$Vl5.629@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.n et>,
>>>>>>>jajabinks <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Why question people's buying decisions? What are you trying to
>>>>>>>>accomplish?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>He didn't specify what help he was looking for; it's common for
>>>>>>>people not to have thought about things in a big picture way, and
>>>>>>>it's helpful for them to explain their real goals and get input.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>
>
09-03-2004, 05:49 PM
#39
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Civic Hybrid or Prius owners...
al, we're talking about different things. i'm taking about business
ethics - you're talking about what amounts to thermodynamics.
how about we agree our subject before we continue this conversation?
Al Smith wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:w6OdnRl7OYjwMKXcRVn-qQ@comcast.com...
>
>>wait a minute - if your diesel hybrid has the same batteries and has to
>>go to the same dealer, where's the difference?...
>
>
> Obvious. A diesel is about 15% more efficient than an Otto. That's
> the difference. Although there is no efficiency increase from
> eliminating ignition advance, there is still significant efficiency
> increase.
>
>
>>the diesel-electric concept is ancient. railroad engines have been
>>using them for decades.
>
>
> Not with regenerative braking.
>
> it's not the mechanical concepts; it's the
>
>>limited battery life/cost equation locking you into the dealer and their
>>opportunity for gouging that i have a problem with. congress sees fit
>>to mandate that obdc II is "open" to prevent dealer lock-in. unless
>>congress has the same foresight regarding hybrids, and i don't see how
>>it can force manufacturers to use the same battery packs - a totally
>>different proposition to a $2 port on an embedded computer, then the
>>hybrid is going to be what i said, a manufacturers dream.
>>
>
>
> ???????
>
>
>>Al Smith wrote:
>>
>>>Wait a minute.
>>>
>>>In my HUMBLE opinion the dream car would be
>>>a hybrid diesel. Apparently, nobody has a grasp
>>>of BOTH techniques.
>>>
>>>"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
>>>news:aKqdnagz7s2nEqXcRVn-uQ@comcast.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>to a large extent, the hybrid is the auto makers dream. batteries have
>>>>a limited life, replacement is prohibitively expensive, and it can't be
>>>>done by joes garage down the street - it has to be done by the dealer,
>>>>if at all. therefore, guess what? you have dealer lock-in! every 5
>>>>years or so, you /have/ to pay a fortune or buy a new car!!! it's
>>>>absolutely an auto makers dream.
>>>>
>>>>personally, i think diesel is a good solution. at the refinery level,
>>>>the fuel's cheaper to produce than gas, less gets used, and you have the
>>>>freedom of a mechanical system that is not locked into one specific
>>>>provider.
>>>>
>>>>Artfulcodger wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I too viewed that hybrid show on PBS and found it of real interest.
>>>>>71 mpg for city driving in a Prius at $30,000 CDN sure gets my
>>>
>>>attention.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Whether or not that is cost effective or not, it has to be darn close.
>>>>>I have wondered however about battery life and what to do when it's
>>>
>>>toast.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>At this point long term results must only be theory but by the time I
>
> am
>
>>>>>ready for a new vehicle (2 years) I am sure the choice will be greater
>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>
>>>>>the longevity somewhat more proven and maybe even better economics.
>>>>>
>>>>>Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>ickd wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>i really got interested in hybrids after watching a show on pbs with
>>>>>>alan alda(anyone see it?)and iceland is leading the way in hydrogen
>>>>>>hybrids,hydrogen/electric.i want a hybrid because i'm sick of
>>>>>>sending money to the middle east,i want a more eco friendly
>>>>>>car,better mileage,less pollution.to me so what if they're a little
>>>>>>more expensive,it's the priciple,it's time we find a way to lessen
>>>>>>our depenece on oil and find alternative sources of
>>>>>>energy(hydrogen,solar,wind,electric,etc.).di d you see the bike on
>>>>>>american chopper that runs on either gas or ethanol? great idea if
>>>>>>you ask me. "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
>>>>>>message news:elmop-13F529.06160203092004@text.usenetserver.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In article <P8SZc.2466$Vl5.629@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.n et>,
>>>>>>>jajabinks <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Why question people's buying decisions? What are you trying to
>>>>>>>>accomplish?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>He didn't specify what help he was looking for; it's common for
>>>>>>>people not to have thought about things in a big picture way, and
>>>>>>>it's helpful for them to explain their real goals and get input.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>
>
ethics - you're talking about what amounts to thermodynamics.
how about we agree our subject before we continue this conversation?
Al Smith wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:w6OdnRl7OYjwMKXcRVn-qQ@comcast.com...
>
>>wait a minute - if your diesel hybrid has the same batteries and has to
>>go to the same dealer, where's the difference?...
>
>
> Obvious. A diesel is about 15% more efficient than an Otto. That's
> the difference. Although there is no efficiency increase from
> eliminating ignition advance, there is still significant efficiency
> increase.
>
>
>>the diesel-electric concept is ancient. railroad engines have been
>>using them for decades.
>
>
> Not with regenerative braking.
>
> it's not the mechanical concepts; it's the
>
>>limited battery life/cost equation locking you into the dealer and their
>>opportunity for gouging that i have a problem with. congress sees fit
>>to mandate that obdc II is "open" to prevent dealer lock-in. unless
>>congress has the same foresight regarding hybrids, and i don't see how
>>it can force manufacturers to use the same battery packs - a totally
>>different proposition to a $2 port on an embedded computer, then the
>>hybrid is going to be what i said, a manufacturers dream.
>>
>
>
> ???????
>
>
>>Al Smith wrote:
>>
>>>Wait a minute.
>>>
>>>In my HUMBLE opinion the dream car would be
>>>a hybrid diesel. Apparently, nobody has a grasp
>>>of BOTH techniques.
>>>
>>>"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
>>>news:aKqdnagz7s2nEqXcRVn-uQ@comcast.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>to a large extent, the hybrid is the auto makers dream. batteries have
>>>>a limited life, replacement is prohibitively expensive, and it can't be
>>>>done by joes garage down the street - it has to be done by the dealer,
>>>>if at all. therefore, guess what? you have dealer lock-in! every 5
>>>>years or so, you /have/ to pay a fortune or buy a new car!!! it's
>>>>absolutely an auto makers dream.
>>>>
>>>>personally, i think diesel is a good solution. at the refinery level,
>>>>the fuel's cheaper to produce than gas, less gets used, and you have the
>>>>freedom of a mechanical system that is not locked into one specific
>>>>provider.
>>>>
>>>>Artfulcodger wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I too viewed that hybrid show on PBS and found it of real interest.
>>>>>71 mpg for city driving in a Prius at $30,000 CDN sure gets my
>>>
>>>attention.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Whether or not that is cost effective or not, it has to be darn close.
>>>>>I have wondered however about battery life and what to do when it's
>>>
>>>toast.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>At this point long term results must only be theory but by the time I
>
> am
>
>>>>>ready for a new vehicle (2 years) I am sure the choice will be greater
>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>
>>>>>the longevity somewhat more proven and maybe even better economics.
>>>>>
>>>>>Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>ickd wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>i really got interested in hybrids after watching a show on pbs with
>>>>>>alan alda(anyone see it?)and iceland is leading the way in hydrogen
>>>>>>hybrids,hydrogen/electric.i want a hybrid because i'm sick of
>>>>>>sending money to the middle east,i want a more eco friendly
>>>>>>car,better mileage,less pollution.to me so what if they're a little
>>>>>>more expensive,it's the priciple,it's time we find a way to lessen
>>>>>>our depenece on oil and find alternative sources of
>>>>>>energy(hydrogen,solar,wind,electric,etc.).di d you see the bike on
>>>>>>american chopper that runs on either gas or ethanol? great idea if
>>>>>>you ask me. "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
>>>>>>message news:elmop-13F529.06160203092004@text.usenetserver.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In article <P8SZc.2466$Vl5.629@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.n et>,
>>>>>>>jajabinks <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Why question people's buying decisions? What are you trying to
>>>>>>>>accomplish?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>He didn't specify what help he was looking for; it's common for
>>>>>>>people not to have thought about things in a big picture way, and
>>>>>>>it's helpful for them to explain their real goals and get input.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>
>
09-03-2004, 07:57 PM
#40
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Civic Hybrid or Prius owners...
Nickd,
I just got my Civic Hybrid in May. My preference was for the Toyota Prius
(more interior and cargo space, higher gas mileage, better Consumer Reports
evaluation) but the wait lists were just too long. For commuting I wanted
gas efficiency and most importantly, the added bonus (in Virginia only until
2006) that with special license tags, hybrid/clean fuel vehicles are allowed
in the restricted High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) lanes during rush hour. I
will also get a federal tax credit ($1500 in '04). Civic itself is still a
Civic but with less acceleration (not a concern to me) and smaller trunk due
to the battery. I do prefer the Civic styling over the boxier Prius.
Seats are a bit stiff but still better than my Subaru Forester. I also
don't like the rear view blindspots. I am most peeved that my Civic had a
bad front door rattle that took 2 dealer visits to fix (it's much better but
not completely gone). I've owned several Toyotas that have been better
quality in fit and finish. But I did get a below invoice price on the Civic
with immediate delivery...while the Prius prices are most likely at/above
MSR with over 6 month wait in my area. I didn't do a cost analysis but the
easier commuting and time savings are very important to me; in my daily
rush hour commutes to Washington DC I get just over 50 mpg with careful
driving. Overall, the Civic Hybrid does meet my needs.
Anyway, that's just one owner's opinion. --V
"nickd" <nickdepo@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:EpidnSVM9bBb6arcRVn-hA@adelphia.com...
> hi, i am currently looking for a new car.i know it will be a hybrid.my
> question is are you happy with your hybrid? what do you like/dislike about
> it?I'd like to hear your experiences with them.thanks, Nick
>
>
I just got my Civic Hybrid in May. My preference was for the Toyota Prius
(more interior and cargo space, higher gas mileage, better Consumer Reports
evaluation) but the wait lists were just too long. For commuting I wanted
gas efficiency and most importantly, the added bonus (in Virginia only until
2006) that with special license tags, hybrid/clean fuel vehicles are allowed
in the restricted High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) lanes during rush hour. I
will also get a federal tax credit ($1500 in '04). Civic itself is still a
Civic but with less acceleration (not a concern to me) and smaller trunk due
to the battery. I do prefer the Civic styling over the boxier Prius.
Seats are a bit stiff but still better than my Subaru Forester. I also
don't like the rear view blindspots. I am most peeved that my Civic had a
bad front door rattle that took 2 dealer visits to fix (it's much better but
not completely gone). I've owned several Toyotas that have been better
quality in fit and finish. But I did get a below invoice price on the Civic
with immediate delivery...while the Prius prices are most likely at/above
MSR with over 6 month wait in my area. I didn't do a cost analysis but the
easier commuting and time savings are very important to me; in my daily
rush hour commutes to Washington DC I get just over 50 mpg with careful
driving. Overall, the Civic Hybrid does meet my needs.
Anyway, that's just one owner's opinion. --V
"nickd" <nickdepo@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:EpidnSVM9bBb6arcRVn-hA@adelphia.com...
> hi, i am currently looking for a new car.i know it will be a hybrid.my
> question is are you happy with your hybrid? what do you like/dislike about
> it?I'd like to hear your experiences with them.thanks, Nick
>
>
09-03-2004, 07:57 PM
#41
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Civic Hybrid or Prius owners...
Nickd,
I just got my Civic Hybrid in May. My preference was for the Toyota Prius
(more interior and cargo space, higher gas mileage, better Consumer Reports
evaluation) but the wait lists were just too long. For commuting I wanted
gas efficiency and most importantly, the added bonus (in Virginia only until
2006) that with special license tags, hybrid/clean fuel vehicles are allowed
in the restricted High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) lanes during rush hour. I
will also get a federal tax credit ($1500 in '04). Civic itself is still a
Civic but with less acceleration (not a concern to me) and smaller trunk due
to the battery. I do prefer the Civic styling over the boxier Prius.
Seats are a bit stiff but still better than my Subaru Forester. I also
don't like the rear view blindspots. I am most peeved that my Civic had a
bad front door rattle that took 2 dealer visits to fix (it's much better but
not completely gone). I've owned several Toyotas that have been better
quality in fit and finish. But I did get a below invoice price on the Civic
with immediate delivery...while the Prius prices are most likely at/above
MSR with over 6 month wait in my area. I didn't do a cost analysis but the
easier commuting and time savings are very important to me; in my daily
rush hour commutes to Washington DC I get just over 50 mpg with careful
driving. Overall, the Civic Hybrid does meet my needs.
Anyway, that's just one owner's opinion. --V
"nickd" <nickdepo@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:EpidnSVM9bBb6arcRVn-hA@adelphia.com...
> hi, i am currently looking for a new car.i know it will be a hybrid.my
> question is are you happy with your hybrid? what do you like/dislike about
> it?I'd like to hear your experiences with them.thanks, Nick
>
>
I just got my Civic Hybrid in May. My preference was for the Toyota Prius
(more interior and cargo space, higher gas mileage, better Consumer Reports
evaluation) but the wait lists were just too long. For commuting I wanted
gas efficiency and most importantly, the added bonus (in Virginia only until
2006) that with special license tags, hybrid/clean fuel vehicles are allowed
in the restricted High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) lanes during rush hour. I
will also get a federal tax credit ($1500 in '04). Civic itself is still a
Civic but with less acceleration (not a concern to me) and smaller trunk due
to the battery. I do prefer the Civic styling over the boxier Prius.
Seats are a bit stiff but still better than my Subaru Forester. I also
don't like the rear view blindspots. I am most peeved that my Civic had a
bad front door rattle that took 2 dealer visits to fix (it's much better but
not completely gone). I've owned several Toyotas that have been better
quality in fit and finish. But I did get a below invoice price on the Civic
with immediate delivery...while the Prius prices are most likely at/above
MSR with over 6 month wait in my area. I didn't do a cost analysis but the
easier commuting and time savings are very important to me; in my daily
rush hour commutes to Washington DC I get just over 50 mpg with careful
driving. Overall, the Civic Hybrid does meet my needs.
Anyway, that's just one owner's opinion. --V
"nickd" <nickdepo@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:EpidnSVM9bBb6arcRVn-hA@adelphia.com...
> hi, i am currently looking for a new car.i know it will be a hybrid.my
> question is are you happy with your hybrid? what do you like/dislike about
> it?I'd like to hear your experiences with them.thanks, Nick
>
>
09-03-2004, 10:34 PM
#42
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Civic Hybrid or Prius owners...
In article <EpidnSVM9bBb6arcRVn-hA@adelphia.com>, nickd
<nickdepo@adelphia.net> wrote:
> hi, i am currently looking for a new car.i know it will be a hybrid.my
> question is are you happy with your hybrid? what do you like/dislike about
> it?I'd like to hear your experiences with them.thanks, Nick
>
Nick,
I'll answer your question directly. I've had my '03 Civic Hybrid for
over a year now. I *love* driving it. It is quiet, smooth and very fuel
efficient. It is plenty peppy, too. And has the general quality and
reliabilty you've come to expect from Honda (and Toyota). I've had
*zero* problems so far.
In tough *real world* driving (a 20 minute drive back and forth to work
year around in stop-and-go traffic), I am getting better than 40 miles
to a gallon.
Don't listen to the B.S. most of the posters on your thread are
shoveling out. A hybrid is clearly environmentally friendly on the
balance; and it clearly is a great gas saver. Every time the word
"hybrid" comes up, these trolls come out of the wood work with their
outrageous "proofs" that hybrids are a waste of money and good for
nothing but "political statement". What hogwash!!
You are obviously looking for what *you* regard as environmentally and
economically responsible. Follow your own head, heart and common sense.
I think you'd be happy with either the Civic Hybrid or the Prius. Best
of luck to you.
Gary
<nickdepo@adelphia.net> wrote:
> hi, i am currently looking for a new car.i know it will be a hybrid.my
> question is are you happy with your hybrid? what do you like/dislike about
> it?I'd like to hear your experiences with them.thanks, Nick
>
Nick,
I'll answer your question directly. I've had my '03 Civic Hybrid for
over a year now. I *love* driving it. It is quiet, smooth and very fuel
efficient. It is plenty peppy, too. And has the general quality and
reliabilty you've come to expect from Honda (and Toyota). I've had
*zero* problems so far.
In tough *real world* driving (a 20 minute drive back and forth to work
year around in stop-and-go traffic), I am getting better than 40 miles
to a gallon.
Don't listen to the B.S. most of the posters on your thread are
shoveling out. A hybrid is clearly environmentally friendly on the
balance; and it clearly is a great gas saver. Every time the word
"hybrid" comes up, these trolls come out of the wood work with their
outrageous "proofs" that hybrids are a waste of money and good for
nothing but "political statement". What hogwash!!
You are obviously looking for what *you* regard as environmentally and
economically responsible. Follow your own head, heart and common sense.
I think you'd be happy with either the Civic Hybrid or the Prius. Best
of luck to you.
Gary
09-03-2004, 10:34 PM
#43
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Civic Hybrid or Prius owners...
In article <EpidnSVM9bBb6arcRVn-hA@adelphia.com>, nickd
<nickdepo@adelphia.net> wrote:
> hi, i am currently looking for a new car.i know it will be a hybrid.my
> question is are you happy with your hybrid? what do you like/dislike about
> it?I'd like to hear your experiences with them.thanks, Nick
>
Nick,
I'll answer your question directly. I've had my '03 Civic Hybrid for
over a year now. I *love* driving it. It is quiet, smooth and very fuel
efficient. It is plenty peppy, too. And has the general quality and
reliabilty you've come to expect from Honda (and Toyota). I've had
*zero* problems so far.
In tough *real world* driving (a 20 minute drive back and forth to work
year around in stop-and-go traffic), I am getting better than 40 miles
to a gallon.
Don't listen to the B.S. most of the posters on your thread are
shoveling out. A hybrid is clearly environmentally friendly on the
balance; and it clearly is a great gas saver. Every time the word
"hybrid" comes up, these trolls come out of the wood work with their
outrageous "proofs" that hybrids are a waste of money and good for
nothing but "political statement". What hogwash!!
You are obviously looking for what *you* regard as environmentally and
economically responsible. Follow your own head, heart and common sense.
I think you'd be happy with either the Civic Hybrid or the Prius. Best
of luck to you.
Gary
<nickdepo@adelphia.net> wrote:
> hi, i am currently looking for a new car.i know it will be a hybrid.my
> question is are you happy with your hybrid? what do you like/dislike about
> it?I'd like to hear your experiences with them.thanks, Nick
>
Nick,
I'll answer your question directly. I've had my '03 Civic Hybrid for
over a year now. I *love* driving it. It is quiet, smooth and very fuel
efficient. It is plenty peppy, too. And has the general quality and
reliabilty you've come to expect from Honda (and Toyota). I've had
*zero* problems so far.
In tough *real world* driving (a 20 minute drive back and forth to work
year around in stop-and-go traffic), I am getting better than 40 miles
to a gallon.
Don't listen to the B.S. most of the posters on your thread are
shoveling out. A hybrid is clearly environmentally friendly on the
balance; and it clearly is a great gas saver. Every time the word
"hybrid" comes up, these trolls come out of the wood work with their
outrageous "proofs" that hybrids are a waste of money and good for
nothing but "political statement". What hogwash!!
You are obviously looking for what *you* regard as environmentally and
economically responsible. Follow your own head, heart and common sense.
I think you'd be happy with either the Civic Hybrid or the Prius. Best
of luck to you.
Gary
09-04-2004, 07:26 AM
#44
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Civic Hybrid or Prius owners...
In article <030920042134353749%ggorbet@houston.rr.com>,
Gary Gorbet <ggorbet@houston.rr.com> wrote:
> A hybrid is clearly environmentally friendly on the
> balance;
Really?
Can you prove that in the overall picture, including both manufacturing
and recycling/disposal costs, a hybrid is particularly more
environmentally friendly than its gasoline or diesel equivalent?
I love hearing from electric car people, for example, about their "zero
emissions" vehicle. They entirely fail to understand that unless their
car was charged with solar power, something somewhere created emissions
to create that energy. The hybrid argument is similar; there are
environmental costs involved in building, maintaining, and disposing of
the hybrid, for example that don't exist with a VW TDI or Toyota Corolla.
If you don't take it all into consideration, you're sticking your head
in the sand.
Another example of not looking at the big picture: the NHTSA keeps
harping about "this year, highway deaths are up!" and equates that to
all sorts of things, like "speed kills!" What they don't acknowledge is
that highway miles are up, too, such that deaths per hundred million
miles driven have remained constant over the last several years--and
that the current death RATE figure is one-twentieth or less that of 30
years ago.
You can focus on one thing and rationalize anything to yourself, but
that doesn't make it right.
Gary Gorbet <ggorbet@houston.rr.com> wrote:
> A hybrid is clearly environmentally friendly on the
> balance;
Really?
Can you prove that in the overall picture, including both manufacturing
and recycling/disposal costs, a hybrid is particularly more
environmentally friendly than its gasoline or diesel equivalent?
I love hearing from electric car people, for example, about their "zero
emissions" vehicle. They entirely fail to understand that unless their
car was charged with solar power, something somewhere created emissions
to create that energy. The hybrid argument is similar; there are
environmental costs involved in building, maintaining, and disposing of
the hybrid, for example that don't exist with a VW TDI or Toyota Corolla.
If you don't take it all into consideration, you're sticking your head
in the sand.
Another example of not looking at the big picture: the NHTSA keeps
harping about "this year, highway deaths are up!" and equates that to
all sorts of things, like "speed kills!" What they don't acknowledge is
that highway miles are up, too, such that deaths per hundred million
miles driven have remained constant over the last several years--and
that the current death RATE figure is one-twentieth or less that of 30
years ago.
You can focus on one thing and rationalize anything to yourself, but
that doesn't make it right.
09-04-2004, 07:26 AM
#45
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Civic Hybrid or Prius owners...
In article <030920042134353749%ggorbet@houston.rr.com>,
Gary Gorbet <ggorbet@houston.rr.com> wrote:
> A hybrid is clearly environmentally friendly on the
> balance;
Really?
Can you prove that in the overall picture, including both manufacturing
and recycling/disposal costs, a hybrid is particularly more
environmentally friendly than its gasoline or diesel equivalent?
I love hearing from electric car people, for example, about their "zero
emissions" vehicle. They entirely fail to understand that unless their
car was charged with solar power, something somewhere created emissions
to create that energy. The hybrid argument is similar; there are
environmental costs involved in building, maintaining, and disposing of
the hybrid, for example that don't exist with a VW TDI or Toyota Corolla.
If you don't take it all into consideration, you're sticking your head
in the sand.
Another example of not looking at the big picture: the NHTSA keeps
harping about "this year, highway deaths are up!" and equates that to
all sorts of things, like "speed kills!" What they don't acknowledge is
that highway miles are up, too, such that deaths per hundred million
miles driven have remained constant over the last several years--and
that the current death RATE figure is one-twentieth or less that of 30
years ago.
You can focus on one thing and rationalize anything to yourself, but
that doesn't make it right.
Gary Gorbet <ggorbet@houston.rr.com> wrote:
> A hybrid is clearly environmentally friendly on the
> balance;
Really?
Can you prove that in the overall picture, including both manufacturing
and recycling/disposal costs, a hybrid is particularly more
environmentally friendly than its gasoline or diesel equivalent?
I love hearing from electric car people, for example, about their "zero
emissions" vehicle. They entirely fail to understand that unless their
car was charged with solar power, something somewhere created emissions
to create that energy. The hybrid argument is similar; there are
environmental costs involved in building, maintaining, and disposing of
the hybrid, for example that don't exist with a VW TDI or Toyota Corolla.
If you don't take it all into consideration, you're sticking your head
in the sand.
Another example of not looking at the big picture: the NHTSA keeps
harping about "this year, highway deaths are up!" and equates that to
all sorts of things, like "speed kills!" What they don't acknowledge is
that highway miles are up, too, such that deaths per hundred million
miles driven have remained constant over the last several years--and
that the current death RATE figure is one-twentieth or less that of 30
years ago.
You can focus on one thing and rationalize anything to yourself, but
that doesn't make it right.