Cost of a loose gas cap? $86.00 USD according to my dealership
08-15-2004, 10:37 AM
#31
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cost of a loose gas cap? $86.00 USD according to my dealership
"Dave Kelsen" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote
snip
> I know you asked Brian this question, but I'm going to answer; I have a
> company that services computers, and does networking and other
> computer-related work (www.wetumpkatechnology.com). Not long ago, I was
> called to a law office to diagnose a computer problem. Although I spent
> two hours, I was unable to determine the cause of the problem. My
> hourly rate is $90, but in this case I chose not to charge even the $35
> rate I charge just to show up. I told them that I didn't find, much
> less fix, the problem. I told them (well, wrote down for them) what to
> say to the manufacturer to take the next step in resolving it.
You're comparing apples and oranges.
What you did was essentially offer a teaser rate.
> That law firm has become one of my best customers; I have worked on
> their systems, and worked on the home PCs of some of the employees as well.
You've simply undercut the market <shrug>.
> Because they trust me not to 'em over on the price, and not to
> bullshit with them. Because I took a chance and didn't charge them when
> I couldn't help them.
>
> This economic model works; older people will tell you that that's how it
> used to work all the time. It still does - or can.
So too does the economic model that a person's time is worth money. I don't care
if a person is a doctor, a lawyer, a plumber, a nurse, or a car technician.
If shops are now charging time for attempting to diagnose a problem without
solving the problem, they are merely taking a cue from the so-called white
collar professions that have been doing this for years.
No white collar professional has grounds to complain.
snip
> I know you asked Brian this question, but I'm going to answer; I have a
> company that services computers, and does networking and other
> computer-related work (www.wetumpkatechnology.com). Not long ago, I was
> called to a law office to diagnose a computer problem. Although I spent
> two hours, I was unable to determine the cause of the problem. My
> hourly rate is $90, but in this case I chose not to charge even the $35
> rate I charge just to show up. I told them that I didn't find, much
> less fix, the problem. I told them (well, wrote down for them) what to
> say to the manufacturer to take the next step in resolving it.
You're comparing apples and oranges.
What you did was essentially offer a teaser rate.
> That law firm has become one of my best customers; I have worked on
> their systems, and worked on the home PCs of some of the employees as well.
You've simply undercut the market <shrug>.
> Because they trust me not to 'em over on the price, and not to
> bullshit with them. Because I took a chance and didn't charge them when
> I couldn't help them.
>
> This economic model works; older people will tell you that that's how it
> used to work all the time. It still does - or can.
So too does the economic model that a person's time is worth money. I don't care
if a person is a doctor, a lawyer, a plumber, a nurse, or a car technician.
If shops are now charging time for attempting to diagnose a problem without
solving the problem, they are merely taking a cue from the so-called white
collar professions that have been doing this for years.
No white collar professional has grounds to complain.
08-15-2004, 10:47 AM
#32
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cost of a loose gas cap? $86.00 USD according to my dealership
"Brian Drake" <nospambdrake1@carolina.rr.com> wrote
> I'm in the banking / finance business. As I said in my original post, I
> believe that some type of compensation was due since it did take up some of
> their time, but 86.00 is excessive to the point of robbery
Some would say that about the fees charged in banking / finance. <shrug>
> plus I thing they
> could have reset the light for me and sent me on my way without all the
> testing (since I told them what happened). 6000.00 doesn't seem like very
> much to me for a piece of diagnostic equipment, but assuming your right,
> that means that at those outragous prices, they could pay off the machine in
> roughly 69 loose gas cap visits, and the rest is profit (not including labor
> costs).
So, as you say, try another dealer...
Good luck with that! ;-)
> Something else I noticed was some type of organized labor logo on the
> 'customer satisfaction' letter I had in my car after the work was
> performed..... that could be the full explanation right there, I don't
> remember this being a Union shop in the past.
You're killin' me.
Blue collar workers have as much a right to find ways to make money as white
collar workers. If this means using collective barganing, so be it. (OTOH I am
doubtful Honda technicians being union members is the rule.)
AFAIC, white collar workers often use similar means. CEOs and University
presidents will say, "So-and-so at Institution X is making this much. You want
to keep me: Pay me the same as Instititution X." What's the extra money for?
Nothing but what the market will bear.
> I am told by some that the
> dealerships have 'set costs' that they charge for things no matter how long
> they actually take to perform, which means they probably 'estimate' that an
> issue such as this takes 30 min to work on.....
Cost setting by dealerships is completely rational. They're all supposed to use
the same Honda service labor hour manual for jobs. If a technician can make the
repair faster, he's accordingly rewarded. If not, he loses.
This is unlike doctors, attorneys and I imagine various people in financial
services who have highly variable rates for the same service.
Which approach is more fair?
Also, shops these days all seem to advertise their minimum diagnosis charge.
Some or all states require this, IIRC.
> so they rip me a new one on
> the 86.00 spend 15 minutes on it and move on to the next sucker and double
> their profit per hour, etc. Sucks, but I'll chalk this one up to an
> expensive lesson.
Yup. See if you can find a dealer shop that's better. I suspect that will be a
challenge.
> I'm in the banking / finance business. As I said in my original post, I
> believe that some type of compensation was due since it did take up some of
> their time, but 86.00 is excessive to the point of robbery
Some would say that about the fees charged in banking / finance. <shrug>
> plus I thing they
> could have reset the light for me and sent me on my way without all the
> testing (since I told them what happened). 6000.00 doesn't seem like very
> much to me for a piece of diagnostic equipment, but assuming your right,
> that means that at those outragous prices, they could pay off the machine in
> roughly 69 loose gas cap visits, and the rest is profit (not including labor
> costs).
So, as you say, try another dealer...
Good luck with that! ;-)
> Something else I noticed was some type of organized labor logo on the
> 'customer satisfaction' letter I had in my car after the work was
> performed..... that could be the full explanation right there, I don't
> remember this being a Union shop in the past.
You're killin' me.
Blue collar workers have as much a right to find ways to make money as white
collar workers. If this means using collective barganing, so be it. (OTOH I am
doubtful Honda technicians being union members is the rule.)
AFAIC, white collar workers often use similar means. CEOs and University
presidents will say, "So-and-so at Institution X is making this much. You want
to keep me: Pay me the same as Instititution X." What's the extra money for?
Nothing but what the market will bear.
> I am told by some that the
> dealerships have 'set costs' that they charge for things no matter how long
> they actually take to perform, which means they probably 'estimate' that an
> issue such as this takes 30 min to work on.....
Cost setting by dealerships is completely rational. They're all supposed to use
the same Honda service labor hour manual for jobs. If a technician can make the
repair faster, he's accordingly rewarded. If not, he loses.
This is unlike doctors, attorneys and I imagine various people in financial
services who have highly variable rates for the same service.
Which approach is more fair?
Also, shops these days all seem to advertise their minimum diagnosis charge.
Some or all states require this, IIRC.
> so they rip me a new one on
> the 86.00 spend 15 minutes on it and move on to the next sucker and double
> their profit per hour, etc. Sucks, but I'll chalk this one up to an
> expensive lesson.
Yup. See if you can find a dealer shop that's better. I suspect that will be a
challenge.
08-15-2004, 10:47 AM
#33
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cost of a loose gas cap? $86.00 USD according to my dealership
"Brian Drake" <nospambdrake1@carolina.rr.com> wrote
> I'm in the banking / finance business. As I said in my original post, I
> believe that some type of compensation was due since it did take up some of
> their time, but 86.00 is excessive to the point of robbery
Some would say that about the fees charged in banking / finance. <shrug>
> plus I thing they
> could have reset the light for me and sent me on my way without all the
> testing (since I told them what happened). 6000.00 doesn't seem like very
> much to me for a piece of diagnostic equipment, but assuming your right,
> that means that at those outragous prices, they could pay off the machine in
> roughly 69 loose gas cap visits, and the rest is profit (not including labor
> costs).
So, as you say, try another dealer...
Good luck with that! ;-)
> Something else I noticed was some type of organized labor logo on the
> 'customer satisfaction' letter I had in my car after the work was
> performed..... that could be the full explanation right there, I don't
> remember this being a Union shop in the past.
You're killin' me.
Blue collar workers have as much a right to find ways to make money as white
collar workers. If this means using collective barganing, so be it. (OTOH I am
doubtful Honda technicians being union members is the rule.)
AFAIC, white collar workers often use similar means. CEOs and University
presidents will say, "So-and-so at Institution X is making this much. You want
to keep me: Pay me the same as Instititution X." What's the extra money for?
Nothing but what the market will bear.
> I am told by some that the
> dealerships have 'set costs' that they charge for things no matter how long
> they actually take to perform, which means they probably 'estimate' that an
> issue such as this takes 30 min to work on.....
Cost setting by dealerships is completely rational. They're all supposed to use
the same Honda service labor hour manual for jobs. If a technician can make the
repair faster, he's accordingly rewarded. If not, he loses.
This is unlike doctors, attorneys and I imagine various people in financial
services who have highly variable rates for the same service.
Which approach is more fair?
Also, shops these days all seem to advertise their minimum diagnosis charge.
Some or all states require this, IIRC.
> so they rip me a new one on
> the 86.00 spend 15 minutes on it and move on to the next sucker and double
> their profit per hour, etc. Sucks, but I'll chalk this one up to an
> expensive lesson.
Yup. See if you can find a dealer shop that's better. I suspect that will be a
challenge.
> I'm in the banking / finance business. As I said in my original post, I
> believe that some type of compensation was due since it did take up some of
> their time, but 86.00 is excessive to the point of robbery
Some would say that about the fees charged in banking / finance. <shrug>
> plus I thing they
> could have reset the light for me and sent me on my way without all the
> testing (since I told them what happened). 6000.00 doesn't seem like very
> much to me for a piece of diagnostic equipment, but assuming your right,
> that means that at those outragous prices, they could pay off the machine in
> roughly 69 loose gas cap visits, and the rest is profit (not including labor
> costs).
So, as you say, try another dealer...
Good luck with that! ;-)
> Something else I noticed was some type of organized labor logo on the
> 'customer satisfaction' letter I had in my car after the work was
> performed..... that could be the full explanation right there, I don't
> remember this being a Union shop in the past.
You're killin' me.
Blue collar workers have as much a right to find ways to make money as white
collar workers. If this means using collective barganing, so be it. (OTOH I am
doubtful Honda technicians being union members is the rule.)
AFAIC, white collar workers often use similar means. CEOs and University
presidents will say, "So-and-so at Institution X is making this much. You want
to keep me: Pay me the same as Instititution X." What's the extra money for?
Nothing but what the market will bear.
> I am told by some that the
> dealerships have 'set costs' that they charge for things no matter how long
> they actually take to perform, which means they probably 'estimate' that an
> issue such as this takes 30 min to work on.....
Cost setting by dealerships is completely rational. They're all supposed to use
the same Honda service labor hour manual for jobs. If a technician can make the
repair faster, he's accordingly rewarded. If not, he loses.
This is unlike doctors, attorneys and I imagine various people in financial
services who have highly variable rates for the same service.
Which approach is more fair?
Also, shops these days all seem to advertise their minimum diagnosis charge.
Some or all states require this, IIRC.
> so they rip me a new one on
> the 86.00 spend 15 minutes on it and move on to the next sucker and double
> their profit per hour, etc. Sucks, but I'll chalk this one up to an
> expensive lesson.
Yup. See if you can find a dealer shop that's better. I suspect that will be a
challenge.
08-15-2004, 10:55 AM
#34
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cost of a loose gas cap? $86.00 USD according to my dealership
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-DEBA23.07390315082004@text.usenetserver.com...
> In article <TQGTc.195204$tH1.9910916@twister.southeast.rr.com >,
> "Brian Drake" <nospambdrake1@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > Something else I noticed was some type of organized labor logo on the
> > 'customer satisfaction' letter I had in my car after the work was
> > performed..... that could be the full explanation right there, I don't
> > remember this being a Union shop in the past. I am told by some that the
> > dealerships have 'set costs' that they charge for things no matter how long
> > they actually take to perform, which means they probably 'estimate' that an
> > issue such as this takes 30 min to work on..... so they rip me a new one on
> > the 86.00 spend 15 minutes on it and move on to the next sucker and double
> > their profit per hour, etc. Sucks, but I'll chalk this one up to an
> > expensive lesson.
>
> Dude, you need to get out more. This is how dealerships work, and have
> worked forever. Not only dealerships, but all auto repair.
>
> The book says the repair takes X amount of time. You pay for that.
> You're bitching that the guy took less time than that, yet you paid for
> the book rate. Hey, this is what promotes good technicians; they might
> work an 8 hour day, but get paid for 11 or 12 hours worth of work. If
> they're good, they deserve to be recognized for that.
>
> Let's turn that around, shall we? Let's suppose you got the shop
> doofus, who took X + 3 hours to do the work. If you're paying for
> ACTUAL time, you just paid for the fact that you got a newbie, a guy
> who's struggling to find his way around the shop and around your car.
> Why didn't I get the one good guy in the shop, you're asking yourself.
> But hey, you were the one who wanted to pay ACTUAL time spent, right?
>
> The flat rate protects you from the unexpected and from morons, and it
> promotes the good technicians and keeps them there and gives huge
> incentive for them to stay good technicians.
>
> You can bitch about the flat rate all you want, but if it weren't flat
> rate--if you paid for the actual time the tech spent in front of your
> car--you'd be bitching about that, too.
>
> If you're going to bitch about auto repair, then fix it yourself.
Hear hear.
Then more so-called white collar professionals might have a better understanding
of how stupid they are; that their careers are built on a house of cards.
I'm not going to be nice. Too many white collar professionals do not have real
skills. They're paid fat salaries because someone years ago manipulated the
market with some cerebral leger-de-main and convinced people that they had some
magical ability that warranted them earning a lot more per hour than others.
That's life, but there are recourses, from collective bargaining to voting for
your preferred political candidate.
Exception: The cost of the actual tuition-based education should factor into how
much a person makes, as a rational economic matter. So if it costs $200,000 to
make a medical doctor (whereas a car technician gets his education for maybe
less than $5000 all told), then the MDs' time after graduation should be more
valuable.
But as far as I can tell, MD hourly rates already far exceed car technician
rates.
snip
> Do YOU give YOUR time and expertise away to random people who
> walk in the door?
You said it.
How many white collar professionals don't get this is amazing. I propose it says
a lot about their "education."
08-15-2004, 10:55 AM
#35
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cost of a loose gas cap? $86.00 USD according to my dealership
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-DEBA23.07390315082004@text.usenetserver.com...
> In article <TQGTc.195204$tH1.9910916@twister.southeast.rr.com >,
> "Brian Drake" <nospambdrake1@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > Something else I noticed was some type of organized labor logo on the
> > 'customer satisfaction' letter I had in my car after the work was
> > performed..... that could be the full explanation right there, I don't
> > remember this being a Union shop in the past. I am told by some that the
> > dealerships have 'set costs' that they charge for things no matter how long
> > they actually take to perform, which means they probably 'estimate' that an
> > issue such as this takes 30 min to work on..... so they rip me a new one on
> > the 86.00 spend 15 minutes on it and move on to the next sucker and double
> > their profit per hour, etc. Sucks, but I'll chalk this one up to an
> > expensive lesson.
>
> Dude, you need to get out more. This is how dealerships work, and have
> worked forever. Not only dealerships, but all auto repair.
>
> The book says the repair takes X amount of time. You pay for that.
> You're bitching that the guy took less time than that, yet you paid for
> the book rate. Hey, this is what promotes good technicians; they might
> work an 8 hour day, but get paid for 11 or 12 hours worth of work. If
> they're good, they deserve to be recognized for that.
>
> Let's turn that around, shall we? Let's suppose you got the shop
> doofus, who took X + 3 hours to do the work. If you're paying for
> ACTUAL time, you just paid for the fact that you got a newbie, a guy
> who's struggling to find his way around the shop and around your car.
> Why didn't I get the one good guy in the shop, you're asking yourself.
> But hey, you were the one who wanted to pay ACTUAL time spent, right?
>
> The flat rate protects you from the unexpected and from morons, and it
> promotes the good technicians and keeps them there and gives huge
> incentive for them to stay good technicians.
>
> You can bitch about the flat rate all you want, but if it weren't flat
> rate--if you paid for the actual time the tech spent in front of your
> car--you'd be bitching about that, too.
>
> If you're going to bitch about auto repair, then fix it yourself.
Hear hear.
Then more so-called white collar professionals might have a better understanding
of how stupid they are; that their careers are built on a house of cards.
I'm not going to be nice. Too many white collar professionals do not have real
skills. They're paid fat salaries because someone years ago manipulated the
market with some cerebral leger-de-main and convinced people that they had some
magical ability that warranted them earning a lot more per hour than others.
That's life, but there are recourses, from collective bargaining to voting for
your preferred political candidate.
Exception: The cost of the actual tuition-based education should factor into how
much a person makes, as a rational economic matter. So if it costs $200,000 to
make a medical doctor (whereas a car technician gets his education for maybe
less than $5000 all told), then the MDs' time after graduation should be more
valuable.
But as far as I can tell, MD hourly rates already far exceed car technician
rates.
snip
> Do YOU give YOUR time and expertise away to random people who
> walk in the door?
You said it.
How many white collar professionals don't get this is amazing. I propose it says
a lot about their "education."
08-15-2004, 11:21 AM
#36
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cost of a loose gas cap? $86.00 USD according to my dealership
"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:fPKTc.22765$9Y6.9000@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net...
> Exception: The cost of the actual tuition-based education should factor
into how
> much a person makes, as a rational economic matter.
Hmm.
I would have thought rational economics would have compensation based on
value to client, not cost to provider.
08-15-2004, 11:21 AM
#37
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cost of a loose gas cap? $86.00 USD according to my dealership
"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:fPKTc.22765$9Y6.9000@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net...
> Exception: The cost of the actual tuition-based education should factor
into how
> much a person makes, as a rational economic matter.
Hmm.
I would have thought rational economics would have compensation based on
value to client, not cost to provider.
08-15-2004, 11:43 AM
#38
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cost of a loose gas cap? $86.00 USD according to my dealership
You can always tell exactly what something is worth, down to the penny. The
value of an item is exactly what the person selling it for can get for it.
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-DAC296.07402715082004@text.usenetserver.com...
> In article <wCBTc.34465$wM.11543@twister.tampabay.rr.com>,
> Dave Kelsen <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> > It's free enterprise, of course; I don't have to take my Honda there for
> > service. But it isn't right, not by a long shot.
>
> If people pay for it, it's right.
>
> People pay five bucks for a cup of Starbucks coffee. That isn't right,
> not by a long shot. Are you suggesting that Starbucks ought not to be
> allowed to charge that for a cup of coffee?
>
> If people are willing to pay it, there's nothing wrong with charging it.
>
value of an item is exactly what the person selling it for can get for it.
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-DAC296.07402715082004@text.usenetserver.com...
> In article <wCBTc.34465$wM.11543@twister.tampabay.rr.com>,
> Dave Kelsen <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> > It's free enterprise, of course; I don't have to take my Honda there for
> > service. But it isn't right, not by a long shot.
>
> If people pay for it, it's right.
>
> People pay five bucks for a cup of Starbucks coffee. That isn't right,
> not by a long shot. Are you suggesting that Starbucks ought not to be
> allowed to charge that for a cup of coffee?
>
> If people are willing to pay it, there's nothing wrong with charging it.
>
08-15-2004, 11:43 AM
#39
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cost of a loose gas cap? $86.00 USD according to my dealership
You can always tell exactly what something is worth, down to the penny. The
value of an item is exactly what the person selling it for can get for it.
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-DAC296.07402715082004@text.usenetserver.com...
> In article <wCBTc.34465$wM.11543@twister.tampabay.rr.com>,
> Dave Kelsen <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> > It's free enterprise, of course; I don't have to take my Honda there for
> > service. But it isn't right, not by a long shot.
>
> If people pay for it, it's right.
>
> People pay five bucks for a cup of Starbucks coffee. That isn't right,
> not by a long shot. Are you suggesting that Starbucks ought not to be
> allowed to charge that for a cup of coffee?
>
> If people are willing to pay it, there's nothing wrong with charging it.
>
value of an item is exactly what the person selling it for can get for it.
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-DAC296.07402715082004@text.usenetserver.com...
> In article <wCBTc.34465$wM.11543@twister.tampabay.rr.com>,
> Dave Kelsen <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> > It's free enterprise, of course; I don't have to take my Honda there for
> > service. But it isn't right, not by a long shot.
>
> If people pay for it, it's right.
>
> People pay five bucks for a cup of Starbucks coffee. That isn't right,
> not by a long shot. Are you suggesting that Starbucks ought not to be
> allowed to charge that for a cup of coffee?
>
> If people are willing to pay it, there's nothing wrong with charging it.
>
08-15-2004, 01:29 PM
#40
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cost of a loose gas cap? $86.00 USD according to my dealership
In article <fPKTc.22765$9Y6.9000@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink .net>,
"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Do YOU give YOUR time and expertise away to random people who
> > walk in the door?
>
> You said it.
>
> How many white collar professionals don't get this is amazing. I propose it
> says
> a lot about their "education."
That's right.
He did give away some of his time; he gave it away to a law firm that he
knew about, with the express purpose of trying to get some of their
business. That was a BUSINESS decision he made. He knew the law firm.
It wasn't just some yahoo who called up out of the blue and said, "come
fix this!"
BTW, News of the Weird reported recently that an associate at a law firm
didn't show up to work one day, apparently because he was dead. The law
firm billed him and his estate some ungodly amount of money for (a) the
work he was doing that had to be reassigned to someone else as a result
of his death, and (b) their investigation into why he didn't show up for
work. They billed something like $3500 for knocking on his mother's
door and asking her if she'd seen the guy.
So, that law firm was laughing its *** off when this guy said "no, don't
bother paying me, that's OK".
"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Do YOU give YOUR time and expertise away to random people who
> > walk in the door?
>
> You said it.
>
> How many white collar professionals don't get this is amazing. I propose it
> says
> a lot about their "education."
That's right.
He did give away some of his time; he gave it away to a law firm that he
knew about, with the express purpose of trying to get some of their
business. That was a BUSINESS decision he made. He knew the law firm.
It wasn't just some yahoo who called up out of the blue and said, "come
fix this!"
BTW, News of the Weird reported recently that an associate at a law firm
didn't show up to work one day, apparently because he was dead. The law
firm billed him and his estate some ungodly amount of money for (a) the
work he was doing that had to be reassigned to someone else as a result
of his death, and (b) their investigation into why he didn't show up for
work. They billed something like $3500 for knocking on his mother's
door and asking her if she'd seen the guy.
So, that law firm was laughing its *** off when this guy said "no, don't
bother paying me, that's OK".
08-15-2004, 01:29 PM
#41
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cost of a loose gas cap? $86.00 USD according to my dealership
In article <fPKTc.22765$9Y6.9000@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink .net>,
"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Do YOU give YOUR time and expertise away to random people who
> > walk in the door?
>
> You said it.
>
> How many white collar professionals don't get this is amazing. I propose it
> says
> a lot about their "education."
That's right.
He did give away some of his time; he gave it away to a law firm that he
knew about, with the express purpose of trying to get some of their
business. That was a BUSINESS decision he made. He knew the law firm.
It wasn't just some yahoo who called up out of the blue and said, "come
fix this!"
BTW, News of the Weird reported recently that an associate at a law firm
didn't show up to work one day, apparently because he was dead. The law
firm billed him and his estate some ungodly amount of money for (a) the
work he was doing that had to be reassigned to someone else as a result
of his death, and (b) their investigation into why he didn't show up for
work. They billed something like $3500 for knocking on his mother's
door and asking her if she'd seen the guy.
So, that law firm was laughing its *** off when this guy said "no, don't
bother paying me, that's OK".
"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Do YOU give YOUR time and expertise away to random people who
> > walk in the door?
>
> You said it.
>
> How many white collar professionals don't get this is amazing. I propose it
> says
> a lot about their "education."
That's right.
He did give away some of his time; he gave it away to a law firm that he
knew about, with the express purpose of trying to get some of their
business. That was a BUSINESS decision he made. He knew the law firm.
It wasn't just some yahoo who called up out of the blue and said, "come
fix this!"
BTW, News of the Weird reported recently that an associate at a law firm
didn't show up to work one day, apparently because he was dead. The law
firm billed him and his estate some ungodly amount of money for (a) the
work he was doing that had to be reassigned to someone else as a result
of his death, and (b) their investigation into why he didn't show up for
work. They billed something like $3500 for knocking on his mother's
door and asking her if she'd seen the guy.
So, that law firm was laughing its *** off when this guy said "no, don't
bother paying me, that's OK".
08-15-2004, 01:36 PM
#42
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cost of a loose gas cap? $86.00 USD according to my dealership
"Steve Bigelow" <stevebigelowXXX@rogers.com> wrote
> "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote
> > Exception: The cost of the actual tuition-based education should factor
> into how
> > much a person makes, as a rational economic matter.
>
> Hmm.
>
> I would have thought rational economics would have compensation based on
> value to client, not cost to provider.
Sure. But then the subjectivity of what "value" is enters the picture and tends
to push the discussion into the "irrational" direction and/or the direction
that, "It's the market that determines salaries, stupid."
Maybe "rational economic" was a poor descriptor, and I should have said
something more like, "It seems reasonable to me that I should pay more to a
person who provides a service when he/she paid more to acquire the skills to
give the service."
I'm talking actual skills here. Not the pseudo-skills that, say, a CEO is argued
to have.
Aside: It's not that a CEO has no skills. It's just that they're not skills that
are very impressive to me nor worth the annual salary. If there were a nuclear
holocaust, these guys are "sacrificable."
After a nuclear holocaust, 100 ex-CEOs = 1 good car technician
But the market is what the market does. <shrug>
> "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote
> > Exception: The cost of the actual tuition-based education should factor
> into how
> > much a person makes, as a rational economic matter.
>
> Hmm.
>
> I would have thought rational economics would have compensation based on
> value to client, not cost to provider.
Sure. But then the subjectivity of what "value" is enters the picture and tends
to push the discussion into the "irrational" direction and/or the direction
that, "It's the market that determines salaries, stupid."
Maybe "rational economic" was a poor descriptor, and I should have said
something more like, "It seems reasonable to me that I should pay more to a
person who provides a service when he/she paid more to acquire the skills to
give the service."
I'm talking actual skills here. Not the pseudo-skills that, say, a CEO is argued
to have.
Aside: It's not that a CEO has no skills. It's just that they're not skills that
are very impressive to me nor worth the annual salary. If there were a nuclear
holocaust, these guys are "sacrificable."
After a nuclear holocaust, 100 ex-CEOs = 1 good car technician
But the market is what the market does. <shrug>
08-15-2004, 01:36 PM
#43
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cost of a loose gas cap? $86.00 USD according to my dealership
"Steve Bigelow" <stevebigelowXXX@rogers.com> wrote
> "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote
> > Exception: The cost of the actual tuition-based education should factor
> into how
> > much a person makes, as a rational economic matter.
>
> Hmm.
>
> I would have thought rational economics would have compensation based on
> value to client, not cost to provider.
Sure. But then the subjectivity of what "value" is enters the picture and tends
to push the discussion into the "irrational" direction and/or the direction
that, "It's the market that determines salaries, stupid."
Maybe "rational economic" was a poor descriptor, and I should have said
something more like, "It seems reasonable to me that I should pay more to a
person who provides a service when he/she paid more to acquire the skills to
give the service."
I'm talking actual skills here. Not the pseudo-skills that, say, a CEO is argued
to have.
Aside: It's not that a CEO has no skills. It's just that they're not skills that
are very impressive to me nor worth the annual salary. If there were a nuclear
holocaust, these guys are "sacrificable."
After a nuclear holocaust, 100 ex-CEOs = 1 good car technician
But the market is what the market does. <shrug>
> "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote
> > Exception: The cost of the actual tuition-based education should factor
> into how
> > much a person makes, as a rational economic matter.
>
> Hmm.
>
> I would have thought rational economics would have compensation based on
> value to client, not cost to provider.
Sure. But then the subjectivity of what "value" is enters the picture and tends
to push the discussion into the "irrational" direction and/or the direction
that, "It's the market that determines salaries, stupid."
Maybe "rational economic" was a poor descriptor, and I should have said
something more like, "It seems reasonable to me that I should pay more to a
person who provides a service when he/she paid more to acquire the skills to
give the service."
I'm talking actual skills here. Not the pseudo-skills that, say, a CEO is argued
to have.
Aside: It's not that a CEO has no skills. It's just that they're not skills that
are very impressive to me nor worth the annual salary. If there were a nuclear
holocaust, these guys are "sacrificable."
After a nuclear holocaust, 100 ex-CEOs = 1 good car technician
But the market is what the market does. <shrug>
08-15-2004, 01:46 PM
#44
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cost of a loose gas cap? $86.00 USD according to my dealership
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote
> "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > Do YOU give YOUR time and expertise away to random people who
> > > walk in the door?
> >
> > You said it.
> >
> > How many white collar professionals don't get this is amazing. I propose it
> > says
> > a lot about their "education."
>
> That's right.
>
> He did give away some of his time; he gave it away to a law firm that he
> knew about, with the express purpose of trying to get some of their
> business. That was a BUSINESS decision he made. He knew the law firm.
> It wasn't just some yahoo who called up out of the blue and said, "come
> fix this!"
>
> BTW, News of the Weird reported recently that an associate at a law firm
> didn't show up to work one day, apparently because he was dead. The law
> firm billed him and his estate some ungodly amount of money for (a) the
> work he was doing that had to be reassigned to someone else as a result
> of his death, and (b) their investigation into why he didn't show up for
> work. They billed something like $3500 for knocking on his mother's
> door and asking her if she'd seen the guy.
>
> So, that law firm was laughing its *** off when this guy said "no, don't
> bother paying me, that's OK".
What I like best is when lawyers sue each other. :-)
Sadly, I can believe the anecdote above is completely true.
On the positive side, I do think the attrition rate for new lawyers is much
higher than a few decades ago. Why? Because the competition is so stiff that the
wages are falling and weeding out the incompetent.
I think a much greater proportion of the lawyers today are of the burger
flipper, very low level of competence variety.
Caroline
Writing as an ex-white collar professional retired from the yuppie life that
breeds an inability to change one's own car's oil and, worse, sanctimony about
not being able to do this.
> "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > Do YOU give YOUR time and expertise away to random people who
> > > walk in the door?
> >
> > You said it.
> >
> > How many white collar professionals don't get this is amazing. I propose it
> > says
> > a lot about their "education."
>
> That's right.
>
> He did give away some of his time; he gave it away to a law firm that he
> knew about, with the express purpose of trying to get some of their
> business. That was a BUSINESS decision he made. He knew the law firm.
> It wasn't just some yahoo who called up out of the blue and said, "come
> fix this!"
>
> BTW, News of the Weird reported recently that an associate at a law firm
> didn't show up to work one day, apparently because he was dead. The law
> firm billed him and his estate some ungodly amount of money for (a) the
> work he was doing that had to be reassigned to someone else as a result
> of his death, and (b) their investigation into why he didn't show up for
> work. They billed something like $3500 for knocking on his mother's
> door and asking her if she'd seen the guy.
>
> So, that law firm was laughing its *** off when this guy said "no, don't
> bother paying me, that's OK".
What I like best is when lawyers sue each other. :-)
Sadly, I can believe the anecdote above is completely true.
On the positive side, I do think the attrition rate for new lawyers is much
higher than a few decades ago. Why? Because the competition is so stiff that the
wages are falling and weeding out the incompetent.
I think a much greater proportion of the lawyers today are of the burger
flipper, very low level of competence variety.
Caroline
Writing as an ex-white collar professional retired from the yuppie life that
breeds an inability to change one's own car's oil and, worse, sanctimony about
not being able to do this.
08-15-2004, 01:46 PM
#45
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cost of a loose gas cap? $86.00 USD according to my dealership
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote
> "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > Do YOU give YOUR time and expertise away to random people who
> > > walk in the door?
> >
> > You said it.
> >
> > How many white collar professionals don't get this is amazing. I propose it
> > says
> > a lot about their "education."
>
> That's right.
>
> He did give away some of his time; he gave it away to a law firm that he
> knew about, with the express purpose of trying to get some of their
> business. That was a BUSINESS decision he made. He knew the law firm.
> It wasn't just some yahoo who called up out of the blue and said, "come
> fix this!"
>
> BTW, News of the Weird reported recently that an associate at a law firm
> didn't show up to work one day, apparently because he was dead. The law
> firm billed him and his estate some ungodly amount of money for (a) the
> work he was doing that had to be reassigned to someone else as a result
> of his death, and (b) their investigation into why he didn't show up for
> work. They billed something like $3500 for knocking on his mother's
> door and asking her if she'd seen the guy.
>
> So, that law firm was laughing its *** off when this guy said "no, don't
> bother paying me, that's OK".
What I like best is when lawyers sue each other. :-)
Sadly, I can believe the anecdote above is completely true.
On the positive side, I do think the attrition rate for new lawyers is much
higher than a few decades ago. Why? Because the competition is so stiff that the
wages are falling and weeding out the incompetent.
I think a much greater proportion of the lawyers today are of the burger
flipper, very low level of competence variety.
Caroline
Writing as an ex-white collar professional retired from the yuppie life that
breeds an inability to change one's own car's oil and, worse, sanctimony about
not being able to do this.
> "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > Do YOU give YOUR time and expertise away to random people who
> > > walk in the door?
> >
> > You said it.
> >
> > How many white collar professionals don't get this is amazing. I propose it
> > says
> > a lot about their "education."
>
> That's right.
>
> He did give away some of his time; he gave it away to a law firm that he
> knew about, with the express purpose of trying to get some of their
> business. That was a BUSINESS decision he made. He knew the law firm.
> It wasn't just some yahoo who called up out of the blue and said, "come
> fix this!"
>
> BTW, News of the Weird reported recently that an associate at a law firm
> didn't show up to work one day, apparently because he was dead. The law
> firm billed him and his estate some ungodly amount of money for (a) the
> work he was doing that had to be reassigned to someone else as a result
> of his death, and (b) their investigation into why he didn't show up for
> work. They billed something like $3500 for knocking on his mother's
> door and asking her if she'd seen the guy.
>
> So, that law firm was laughing its *** off when this guy said "no, don't
> bother paying me, that's OK".
What I like best is when lawyers sue each other. :-)
Sadly, I can believe the anecdote above is completely true.
On the positive side, I do think the attrition rate for new lawyers is much
higher than a few decades ago. Why? Because the competition is so stiff that the
wages are falling and weeding out the incompetent.
I think a much greater proportion of the lawyers today are of the burger
flipper, very low level of competence variety.
Caroline
Writing as an ex-white collar professional retired from the yuppie life that
breeds an inability to change one's own car's oil and, worse, sanctimony about
not being able to do this.