TeGGeR®

"G-Man" <shoot.digital@gwfweb.com> wrote in
news:1280vc67h2v3v43@news.supernews.com:

> If you didn't want advice, just pick up the phone and ask the dealer.
> You posted in a public newsgroup. Take the good with the bad.
>
> Some of us see you standing on a bridge, and we are just trying to
> talk you down!



Jump...jump...jump...jump...jump...


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

jim beam

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
> "TeGGeR®" wrote:
>
>>"ExtremeValue" <raheem@gmail.com> wrote in
>>news:1149249467.727173.314910@g10g2000cwb.google groups.com:
>>
>>
>>>For drain and refill it cost me
>>>3 litre @7.something = $21.something +
>>>30 min labour= $25
>>>
>>>All prices is Canadian dollars and from a Honda dealer.
>>
>>A half-hour of dealer labor is $25? Was this 20 years ago or something?
>>
>>Dealer shop rate these days is more like $90 per hour. Even higher in some
>>places. Even the independents are around $60-$70/hr.
>>
>>And that drain and fill only replaced about half the total fluid, so you'd
>>need to get it done several times to make sure most of it's fresh.
>>
>>--
>>TeGGeR®
>>
>
>
>
> That's a big fault that I find with Honda automatics... No converter
> drain plug.
>
> JT

why? it's not necessary. and on a thin sheet converter like this, it
would not only cause unnecessary balance issues, it would be a potential
fatigue point.

jim beam

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
> "TeGGeR®" wrote:
>
>>"ExtremeValue" <raheem@gmail.com> wrote in
>>news:1149249467.727173.314910@g10g2000cwb.google groups.com:
>>
>>
>>>For drain and refill it cost me
>>>3 litre @7.something = $21.something +
>>>30 min labour= $25
>>>
>>>All prices is Canadian dollars and from a Honda dealer.
>>
>>A half-hour of dealer labor is $25? Was this 20 years ago or something?
>>
>>Dealer shop rate these days is more like $90 per hour. Even higher in some
>>places. Even the independents are around $60-$70/hr.
>>
>>And that drain and fill only replaced about half the total fluid, so you'd
>>need to get it done several times to make sure most of it's fresh.
>>
>>--
>>TeGGeR®
>>
>
>
>
> That's a big fault that I find with Honda automatics... No converter
> drain plug.
>
> JT

why? it's not necessary. and on a thin sheet converter like this, it
would not only cause unnecessary balance issues, it would be a potential
fatigue point.

jim beam

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
> "TeGGeR®" wrote:
>
>>"ExtremeValue" <raheem@gmail.com> wrote in
>>news:1149249467.727173.314910@g10g2000cwb.google groups.com:
>>
>>
>>>For drain and refill it cost me
>>>3 litre @7.something = $21.something +
>>>30 min labour= $25
>>>
>>>All prices is Canadian dollars and from a Honda dealer.
>>
>>A half-hour of dealer labor is $25? Was this 20 years ago or something?
>>
>>Dealer shop rate these days is more like $90 per hour. Even higher in some
>>places. Even the independents are around $60-$70/hr.
>>
>>And that drain and fill only replaced about half the total fluid, so you'd
>>need to get it done several times to make sure most of it's fresh.
>>
>>--
>>TeGGeR®
>>
>
>
>
> That's a big fault that I find with Honda automatics... No converter
> drain plug.
>
> JT

why? it's not necessary. and on a thin sheet converter like this, it
would not only cause unnecessary balance issues, it would be a potential
fatigue point.

Grumpy AuContraire

jim beam wrote:
>
> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
> >
> > "TeGGeR®" wrote:
> >
> >>"ExtremeValue" <raheem@gmail.com> wrote in
> >>news:1149249467.727173.314910@g10g2000cwb.google groups.com:
> >>
> >>
> >>>For drain and refill it cost me
> >>>3 litre @7.something = $21.something +
> >>>30 min labour= $25
> >>>
> >>>All prices is Canadian dollars and from a Honda dealer.
> >>
> >>A half-hour of dealer labor is $25? Was this 20 years ago or something?
> >>
> >>Dealer shop rate these days is more like $90 per hour. Even higher in some
> >>places. Even the independents are around $60-$70/hr.
> >>
> >>And that drain and fill only replaced about half the total fluid, so you'd
> >>need to get it done several times to make sure most of it's fresh.
> >>
> >>--
> >>TeGGeR®
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > That's a big fault that I find with Honda automatics... No converter
> > drain plug.
> >
> > JT
>
> why? it's not necessary. and on a thin sheet converter like this, it
> would not only cause unnecessary balance issues, it would be a potential
> fatigue point.



Why???

Why should one have to change fluid several times to renew and even
then, some old fluid will remain. It is a major flaw in a lot of modern
tin, er.. plastic.

There is no excuse for poor serviceability by Honda or any other
manufacturer for that matter.

Shame on Honda for shaving a few cents in manufacturing savings that
results in a major inconvenience for customers regarding the maintenance
of their cars.

Just because it's a Honda does not mean it's perfect.

JT

Grumpy AuContraire

jim beam wrote:
>
> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
> >
> > "TeGGeR®" wrote:
> >
> >>"ExtremeValue" <raheem@gmail.com> wrote in
> >>news:1149249467.727173.314910@g10g2000cwb.google groups.com:
> >>
> >>
> >>>For drain and refill it cost me
> >>>3 litre @7.something = $21.something +
> >>>30 min labour= $25
> >>>
> >>>All prices is Canadian dollars and from a Honda dealer.
> >>
> >>A half-hour of dealer labor is $25? Was this 20 years ago or something?
> >>
> >>Dealer shop rate these days is more like $90 per hour. Even higher in some
> >>places. Even the independents are around $60-$70/hr.
> >>
> >>And that drain and fill only replaced about half the total fluid, so you'd
> >>need to get it done several times to make sure most of it's fresh.
> >>
> >>--
> >>TeGGeR®
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > That's a big fault that I find with Honda automatics... No converter
> > drain plug.
> >
> > JT
>
> why? it's not necessary. and on a thin sheet converter like this, it
> would not only cause unnecessary balance issues, it would be a potential
> fatigue point.



Why???

Why should one have to change fluid several times to renew and even
then, some old fluid will remain. It is a major flaw in a lot of modern
tin, er.. plastic.

There is no excuse for poor serviceability by Honda or any other
manufacturer for that matter.

Shame on Honda for shaving a few cents in manufacturing savings that
results in a major inconvenience for customers regarding the maintenance
of their cars.

Just because it's a Honda does not mean it's perfect.

JT

Grumpy AuContraire

jim beam wrote:
>
> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
> >
> > "TeGGeR®" wrote:
> >
> >>"ExtremeValue" <raheem@gmail.com> wrote in
> >>news:1149249467.727173.314910@g10g2000cwb.google groups.com:
> >>
> >>
> >>>For drain and refill it cost me
> >>>3 litre @7.something = $21.something +
> >>>30 min labour= $25
> >>>
> >>>All prices is Canadian dollars and from a Honda dealer.
> >>
> >>A half-hour of dealer labor is $25? Was this 20 years ago or something?
> >>
> >>Dealer shop rate these days is more like $90 per hour. Even higher in some
> >>places. Even the independents are around $60-$70/hr.
> >>
> >>And that drain and fill only replaced about half the total fluid, so you'd
> >>need to get it done several times to make sure most of it's fresh.
> >>
> >>--
> >>TeGGeR®
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > That's a big fault that I find with Honda automatics... No converter
> > drain plug.
> >
> > JT
>
> why? it's not necessary. and on a thin sheet converter like this, it
> would not only cause unnecessary balance issues, it would be a potential
> fatigue point.



Why???

Why should one have to change fluid several times to renew and even
then, some old fluid will remain. It is a major flaw in a lot of modern
tin, er.. plastic.

There is no excuse for poor serviceability by Honda or any other
manufacturer for that matter.

Shame on Honda for shaving a few cents in manufacturing savings that
results in a major inconvenience for customers regarding the maintenance
of their cars.

Just because it's a Honda does not mean it's perfect.

JT

jim beam

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
> jim beam wrote:
>
>>Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>
>>>"TeGGeR®" wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"ExtremeValue" <raheem@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>news:1149249467.727173.314910@g10g2000cwb.goog legroups.com:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>For drain and refill it cost me
>>>>>3 litre @7.something = $21.something +
>>>>>30 min labour= $25
>>>>>
>>>>>All prices is Canadian dollars and from a Honda dealer.
>>>>
>>>>A half-hour of dealer labor is $25? Was this 20 years ago or something?
>>>>
>>>>Dealer shop rate these days is more like $90 per hour. Even higher in some
>>>>places. Even the independents are around $60-$70/hr.
>>>>
>>>>And that drain and fill only replaced about half the total fluid, so you'd
>>>>need to get it done several times to make sure most of it's fresh.
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>TeGGeR®
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>That's a big fault that I find with Honda automatics... No converter
>>>drain plug.
>>>
>>>JT
>>
>>why? it's not necessary. and on a thin sheet converter like this, it
>>would not only cause unnecessary balance issues, it would be a potential
>>fatigue point.
>
>
>
>
> Why???
>
> Why should one have to change fluid several times to renew and even
> then, some old fluid will remain. It is a major flaw in a lot of modern
> tin, er.. plastic.
>
> There is no excuse for poor serviceability by Honda or any other
> manufacturer for that matter.
>
> Shame on Honda for shaving a few cents in manufacturing savings that
> results in a major inconvenience for customers regarding the maintenance
> of their cars.
>
> Just because it's a Honda does not mean it's perfect.
>
> JT

with respect, i don't think you're considering all the design criteria.
as far as lubrication is concerned, there's really no need to fret too
much about the changes. there's two main sources of fluid problems:
contamination and heat degradation. contamination comes from friction
lining wear [not as much of an issue with the honda design], from gear
tooth wear and to a much lesser extent, bearing wear. as far as gear
box control operation is concerned, the filter ensures contaminant
particle size is kept below a critical level where they won't cause
harm. and as you know, the filter can't be changed]. heat degradation
is not common unless service conditions are unusual or there's something
wrong. this, in combination with better lube technology these days,
means a lot of cars not only specify highly extended change intervals,
some [bmw] don't even specify a change at all and don't provide any kind
of drain plug! my friend's 88 automatic accord had /never/ had a fluid
change in 360k miles [yes, three hundred and sixty thousand miles] and
that car ran & shifted like a champ.

so, sure, it's a "nice to have" to be able to change 100% of the fluid,
but reality is, when looking into the actual service conditions of the
lube itself, that it's just not that critical. balance that against the
very sound mechanical reasons [converter design] for /not/ putting in a
converter drain, and the 100% fluid change concept is easily abandoned.

jim beam

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
> jim beam wrote:
>
>>Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>
>>>"TeGGeR®" wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"ExtremeValue" <raheem@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>news:1149249467.727173.314910@g10g2000cwb.goog legroups.com:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>For drain and refill it cost me
>>>>>3 litre @7.something = $21.something +
>>>>>30 min labour= $25
>>>>>
>>>>>All prices is Canadian dollars and from a Honda dealer.
>>>>
>>>>A half-hour of dealer labor is $25? Was this 20 years ago or something?
>>>>
>>>>Dealer shop rate these days is more like $90 per hour. Even higher in some
>>>>places. Even the independents are around $60-$70/hr.
>>>>
>>>>And that drain and fill only replaced about half the total fluid, so you'd
>>>>need to get it done several times to make sure most of it's fresh.
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>TeGGeR®
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>That's a big fault that I find with Honda automatics... No converter
>>>drain plug.
>>>
>>>JT
>>
>>why? it's not necessary. and on a thin sheet converter like this, it
>>would not only cause unnecessary balance issues, it would be a potential
>>fatigue point.
>
>
>
>
> Why???
>
> Why should one have to change fluid several times to renew and even
> then, some old fluid will remain. It is a major flaw in a lot of modern
> tin, er.. plastic.
>
> There is no excuse for poor serviceability by Honda or any other
> manufacturer for that matter.
>
> Shame on Honda for shaving a few cents in manufacturing savings that
> results in a major inconvenience for customers regarding the maintenance
> of their cars.
>
> Just because it's a Honda does not mean it's perfect.
>
> JT

with respect, i don't think you're considering all the design criteria.
as far as lubrication is concerned, there's really no need to fret too
much about the changes. there's two main sources of fluid problems:
contamination and heat degradation. contamination comes from friction
lining wear [not as much of an issue with the honda design], from gear
tooth wear and to a much lesser extent, bearing wear. as far as gear
box control operation is concerned, the filter ensures contaminant
particle size is kept below a critical level where they won't cause
harm. and as you know, the filter can't be changed]. heat degradation
is not common unless service conditions are unusual or there's something
wrong. this, in combination with better lube technology these days,
means a lot of cars not only specify highly extended change intervals,
some [bmw] don't even specify a change at all and don't provide any kind
of drain plug! my friend's 88 automatic accord had /never/ had a fluid
change in 360k miles [yes, three hundred and sixty thousand miles] and
that car ran & shifted like a champ.

so, sure, it's a "nice to have" to be able to change 100% of the fluid,
but reality is, when looking into the actual service conditions of the
lube itself, that it's just not that critical. balance that against the
very sound mechanical reasons [converter design] for /not/ putting in a
converter drain, and the 100% fluid change concept is easily abandoned.

jim beam

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
> jim beam wrote:
>
>>Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>
>>>"TeGGeR®" wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"ExtremeValue" <raheem@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>news:1149249467.727173.314910@g10g2000cwb.goog legroups.com:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>For drain and refill it cost me
>>>>>3 litre @7.something = $21.something +
>>>>>30 min labour= $25
>>>>>
>>>>>All prices is Canadian dollars and from a Honda dealer.
>>>>
>>>>A half-hour of dealer labor is $25? Was this 20 years ago or something?
>>>>
>>>>Dealer shop rate these days is more like $90 per hour. Even higher in some
>>>>places. Even the independents are around $60-$70/hr.
>>>>
>>>>And that drain and fill only replaced about half the total fluid, so you'd
>>>>need to get it done several times to make sure most of it's fresh.
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>TeGGeR®
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>That's a big fault that I find with Honda automatics... No converter
>>>drain plug.
>>>
>>>JT
>>
>>why? it's not necessary. and on a thin sheet converter like this, it
>>would not only cause unnecessary balance issues, it would be a potential
>>fatigue point.
>
>
>
>
> Why???
>
> Why should one have to change fluid several times to renew and even
> then, some old fluid will remain. It is a major flaw in a lot of modern
> tin, er.. plastic.
>
> There is no excuse for poor serviceability by Honda or any other
> manufacturer for that matter.
>
> Shame on Honda for shaving a few cents in manufacturing savings that
> results in a major inconvenience for customers regarding the maintenance
> of their cars.
>
> Just because it's a Honda does not mean it's perfect.
>
> JT

with respect, i don't think you're considering all the design criteria.
as far as lubrication is concerned, there's really no need to fret too
much about the changes. there's two main sources of fluid problems:
contamination and heat degradation. contamination comes from friction
lining wear [not as much of an issue with the honda design], from gear
tooth wear and to a much lesser extent, bearing wear. as far as gear
box control operation is concerned, the filter ensures contaminant
particle size is kept below a critical level where they won't cause
harm. and as you know, the filter can't be changed]. heat degradation
is not common unless service conditions are unusual or there's something
wrong. this, in combination with better lube technology these days,
means a lot of cars not only specify highly extended change intervals,
some [bmw] don't even specify a change at all and don't provide any kind
of drain plug! my friend's 88 automatic accord had /never/ had a fluid
change in 360k miles [yes, three hundred and sixty thousand miles] and
that car ran & shifted like a champ.

so, sure, it's a "nice to have" to be able to change 100% of the fluid,
but reality is, when looking into the actual service conditions of the
lube itself, that it's just not that critical. balance that against the
very sound mechanical reasons [converter design] for /not/ putting in a
converter drain, and the 100% fluid change concept is easily abandoned.

Grumpy AuContraire

jim beam wrote:
>
> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
> >
> > jim beam wrote:
> >
> >>Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
> >>
> >>>"TeGGeR®" wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>"ExtremeValue" <raheem@gmail.com> wrote in
> >>>>news:1149249467.727173.314910@g10g2000cwb.goog legroups.com:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>For drain and refill it cost me
> >>>>>3 litre @7.something = $21.something +
> >>>>>30 min labour= $25
> >>>>>
> >>>>>All prices is Canadian dollars and from a Honda dealer.
> >>>>
> >>>>A half-hour of dealer labor is $25? Was this 20 years ago or something?
> >>>>
> >>>>Dealer shop rate these days is more like $90 per hour. Even higher in some
> >>>>places. Even the independents are around $60-$70/hr.
> >>>>
> >>>>And that drain and fill only replaced about half the total fluid, so you'd
> >>>>need to get it done several times to make sure most of it's fresh.
> >>>>
> >>>>--
> >>>>TeGGeR®
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>That's a big fault that I find with Honda automatics... No converter
> >>>drain plug.
> >>>
> >>>JT
> >>
> >>why? it's not necessary. and on a thin sheet converter like this, it
> >>would not only cause unnecessary balance issues, it would be a potential
> >>fatigue point.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Why???
> >
> > Why should one have to change fluid several times to renew and even
> > then, some old fluid will remain. It is a major flaw in a lot of modern
> > tin, er.. plastic.
> >
> > There is no excuse for poor serviceability by Honda or any other
> > manufacturer for that matter.
> >
> > Shame on Honda for shaving a few cents in manufacturing savings that
> > results in a major inconvenience for customers regarding the maintenance
> > of their cars.
> >
> > Just because it's a Honda does not mean it's perfect.
> >
> > JT
>
> with respect, i don't think you're considering all the design criteria.
> as far as lubrication is concerned, there's really no need to fret too
> much about the changes. there's two main sources of fluid problems:
> contamination and heat degradation. contamination comes from friction
> lining wear [not as much of an issue with the honda design], from gear
> tooth wear and to a much lesser extent, bearing wear. as far as gear
> box control operation is concerned, the filter ensures contaminant
> particle size is kept below a critical level where they won't cause
> harm. and as you know, the filter can't be changed]. heat degradation
> is not common unless service conditions are unusual or there's something
> wrong. this, in combination with better lube technology these days,
> means a lot of cars not only specify highly extended change intervals,
> some [bmw] don't even specify a change at all and don't provide any kind
> of drain plug! my friend's 88 automatic accord had /never/ had a fluid
> change in 360k miles [yes, three hundred and sixty thousand miles] and
> that car ran & shifted like a champ.
>
> so, sure, it's a "nice to have" to be able to change 100% of the fluid,
> but reality is, when looking into the actual service conditions of the
> lube itself, that it's just not that critical. balance that against the
> very sound mechanical reasons [converter design] for /not/ putting in a
> converter drain, and the 100% fluid change concept is easily abandoned.


Uh, in the Texas heat, dino fluid is good for not much longer than 50K.
Add to this the lack of a filter that cannot be changed (or cleaned)
plus the lack of a drain plug in the converter (where the majority of
fluid resides), Honda is shortchanging its customers pure and simple.
The record of tranny failures speak for itself.

I'm done with this thread.

JT

Grumpy AuContraire

jim beam wrote:
>
> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
> >
> > jim beam wrote:
> >
> >>Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
> >>
> >>>"TeGGeR®" wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>"ExtremeValue" <raheem@gmail.com> wrote in
> >>>>news:1149249467.727173.314910@g10g2000cwb.goog legroups.com:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>For drain and refill it cost me
> >>>>>3 litre @7.something = $21.something +
> >>>>>30 min labour= $25
> >>>>>
> >>>>>All prices is Canadian dollars and from a Honda dealer.
> >>>>
> >>>>A half-hour of dealer labor is $25? Was this 20 years ago or something?
> >>>>
> >>>>Dealer shop rate these days is more like $90 per hour. Even higher in some
> >>>>places. Even the independents are around $60-$70/hr.
> >>>>
> >>>>And that drain and fill only replaced about half the total fluid, so you'd
> >>>>need to get it done several times to make sure most of it's fresh.
> >>>>
> >>>>--
> >>>>TeGGeR®
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>That's a big fault that I find with Honda automatics... No converter
> >>>drain plug.
> >>>
> >>>JT
> >>
> >>why? it's not necessary. and on a thin sheet converter like this, it
> >>would not only cause unnecessary balance issues, it would be a potential
> >>fatigue point.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Why???
> >
> > Why should one have to change fluid several times to renew and even
> > then, some old fluid will remain. It is a major flaw in a lot of modern
> > tin, er.. plastic.
> >
> > There is no excuse for poor serviceability by Honda or any other
> > manufacturer for that matter.
> >
> > Shame on Honda for shaving a few cents in manufacturing savings that
> > results in a major inconvenience for customers regarding the maintenance
> > of their cars.
> >
> > Just because it's a Honda does not mean it's perfect.
> >
> > JT
>
> with respect, i don't think you're considering all the design criteria.
> as far as lubrication is concerned, there's really no need to fret too
> much about the changes. there's two main sources of fluid problems:
> contamination and heat degradation. contamination comes from friction
> lining wear [not as much of an issue with the honda design], from gear
> tooth wear and to a much lesser extent, bearing wear. as far as gear
> box control operation is concerned, the filter ensures contaminant
> particle size is kept below a critical level where they won't cause
> harm. and as you know, the filter can't be changed]. heat degradation
> is not common unless service conditions are unusual or there's something
> wrong. this, in combination with better lube technology these days,
> means a lot of cars not only specify highly extended change intervals,
> some [bmw] don't even specify a change at all and don't provide any kind
> of drain plug! my friend's 88 automatic accord had /never/ had a fluid
> change in 360k miles [yes, three hundred and sixty thousand miles] and
> that car ran & shifted like a champ.
>
> so, sure, it's a "nice to have" to be able to change 100% of the fluid,
> but reality is, when looking into the actual service conditions of the
> lube itself, that it's just not that critical. balance that against the
> very sound mechanical reasons [converter design] for /not/ putting in a
> converter drain, and the 100% fluid change concept is easily abandoned.


Uh, in the Texas heat, dino fluid is good for not much longer than 50K.
Add to this the lack of a filter that cannot be changed (or cleaned)
plus the lack of a drain plug in the converter (where the majority of
fluid resides), Honda is shortchanging its customers pure and simple.
The record of tranny failures speak for itself.

I'm done with this thread.

JT

Grumpy AuContraire

jim beam wrote:
>
> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
> >
> > jim beam wrote:
> >
> >>Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
> >>
> >>>"TeGGeR®" wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>"ExtremeValue" <raheem@gmail.com> wrote in
> >>>>news:1149249467.727173.314910@g10g2000cwb.goog legroups.com:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>For drain and refill it cost me
> >>>>>3 litre @7.something = $21.something +
> >>>>>30 min labour= $25
> >>>>>
> >>>>>All prices is Canadian dollars and from a Honda dealer.
> >>>>
> >>>>A half-hour of dealer labor is $25? Was this 20 years ago or something?
> >>>>
> >>>>Dealer shop rate these days is more like $90 per hour. Even higher in some
> >>>>places. Even the independents are around $60-$70/hr.
> >>>>
> >>>>And that drain and fill only replaced about half the total fluid, so you'd
> >>>>need to get it done several times to make sure most of it's fresh.
> >>>>
> >>>>--
> >>>>TeGGeR®
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>That's a big fault that I find with Honda automatics... No converter
> >>>drain plug.
> >>>
> >>>JT
> >>
> >>why? it's not necessary. and on a thin sheet converter like this, it
> >>would not only cause unnecessary balance issues, it would be a potential
> >>fatigue point.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Why???
> >
> > Why should one have to change fluid several times to renew and even
> > then, some old fluid will remain. It is a major flaw in a lot of modern
> > tin, er.. plastic.
> >
> > There is no excuse for poor serviceability by Honda or any other
> > manufacturer for that matter.
> >
> > Shame on Honda for shaving a few cents in manufacturing savings that
> > results in a major inconvenience for customers regarding the maintenance
> > of their cars.
> >
> > Just because it's a Honda does not mean it's perfect.
> >
> > JT
>
> with respect, i don't think you're considering all the design criteria.
> as far as lubrication is concerned, there's really no need to fret too
> much about the changes. there's two main sources of fluid problems:
> contamination and heat degradation. contamination comes from friction
> lining wear [not as much of an issue with the honda design], from gear
> tooth wear and to a much lesser extent, bearing wear. as far as gear
> box control operation is concerned, the filter ensures contaminant
> particle size is kept below a critical level where they won't cause
> harm. and as you know, the filter can't be changed]. heat degradation
> is not common unless service conditions are unusual or there's something
> wrong. this, in combination with better lube technology these days,
> means a lot of cars not only specify highly extended change intervals,
> some [bmw] don't even specify a change at all and don't provide any kind
> of drain plug! my friend's 88 automatic accord had /never/ had a fluid
> change in 360k miles [yes, three hundred and sixty thousand miles] and
> that car ran & shifted like a champ.
>
> so, sure, it's a "nice to have" to be able to change 100% of the fluid,
> but reality is, when looking into the actual service conditions of the
> lube itself, that it's just not that critical. balance that against the
> very sound mechanical reasons [converter design] for /not/ putting in a
> converter drain, and the 100% fluid change concept is easily abandoned.


Uh, in the Texas heat, dino fluid is good for not much longer than 50K.
Add to this the lack of a filter that cannot be changed (or cleaned)
plus the lack of a drain plug in the converter (where the majority of
fluid resides), Honda is shortchanging its customers pure and simple.
The record of tranny failures speak for itself.

I'm done with this thread.

JT

jim beam

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
> jim beam wrote:
>
>>Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>
>>>jim beam wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"TeGGeR®" wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"ExtremeValue" <raheem@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>>news:1149249467.727173.314910@g10g2000cwb.go oglegroups.com:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>For drain and refill it cost me
>>>>>>>3 litre @7.something = $21.something +
>>>>>>>30 min labour= $25
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>All prices is Canadian dollars and from a Honda dealer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>A half-hour of dealer labor is $25? Was this 20 years ago or something?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Dealer shop rate these days is more like $90 per hour. Even higher in some
>>>>>>places. Even the independents are around $60-$70/hr.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And that drain and fill only replaced about half the total fluid, so you'd
>>>>>>need to get it done several times to make sure most of it's fresh.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>--
>>>>>>TeGGeR®
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>That's a big fault that I find with Honda automatics... No converter
>>>>>drain plug.
>>>>>
>>>>>JT
>>>>
>>>>why? it's not necessary. and on a thin sheet converter like this, it
>>>>would not only cause unnecessary balance issues, it would be a potential
>>>>fatigue point.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Why???
>>>
>>>Why should one have to change fluid several times to renew and even
>>>then, some old fluid will remain. It is a major flaw in a lot of modern
>>>tin, er.. plastic.
>>>
>>>There is no excuse for poor serviceability by Honda or any other
>>>manufacturer for that matter.
>>>
>>>Shame on Honda for shaving a few cents in manufacturing savings that
>>>results in a major inconvenience for customers regarding the maintenance
>>>of their cars.
>>>
>>>Just because it's a Honda does not mean it's perfect.
>>>
>>>JT
>>
>>with respect, i don't think you're considering all the design criteria.
>> as far as lubrication is concerned, there's really no need to fret too
>>much about the changes. there's two main sources of fluid problems:
>>contamination and heat degradation. contamination comes from friction
>>lining wear [not as much of an issue with the honda design], from gear
>>tooth wear and to a much lesser extent, bearing wear. as far as gear
>>box control operation is concerned, the filter ensures contaminant
>>particle size is kept below a critical level where they won't cause
>>harm. and as you know, the filter can't be changed]. heat degradation
>>is not common unless service conditions are unusual or there's something
>>wrong. this, in combination with better lube technology these days,
>>means a lot of cars not only specify highly extended change intervals,
>>some [bmw] don't even specify a change at all and don't provide any kind
>>of drain plug! my friend's 88 automatic accord had /never/ had a fluid
>>change in 360k miles [yes, three hundred and sixty thousand miles] and
>>that car ran & shifted like a champ.
>>
>>so, sure, it's a "nice to have" to be able to change 100% of the fluid,
>>but reality is, when looking into the actual service conditions of the
>>lube itself, that it's just not that critical. balance that against the
>>very sound mechanical reasons [converter design] for /not/ putting in a
>>converter drain, and the 100% fluid change concept is easily abandoned.
>
>
>
> Uh, in the Texas heat, dino fluid is good for not much longer than 50K.

texas gets hotter than ca or nv? tx is more humid, but that just
affects wet stuff like humans, not sealed stuff like transmissions.
besides, ambient of 100F isn't exactly extreme for a lubricant.

> Add to this the lack of a filter that cannot be changed (or cleaned)
> plus the lack of a drain plug in the converter (where the majority of
> fluid resides), Honda is shortchanging its customers pure and simple.
> The record of tranny failures speak for itself.

record of tranny failures? 300k on an automatic? name a domestic
that'll regularly and reliably do 300k! i know there's issues with
modern hondas, but what about the 20-odd years prior to that? and
modern failures are gear design problems - nothing to do with excess
fluid contamination. buy a ford, then let's talk about the difference
being able to change the fluid seems to make...

>
> I'm done with this thread.
>
> JT

jim beam

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
> jim beam wrote:
>
>>Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>
>>>jim beam wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"TeGGeR®" wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"ExtremeValue" <raheem@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>>news:1149249467.727173.314910@g10g2000cwb.go oglegroups.com:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>For drain and refill it cost me
>>>>>>>3 litre @7.something = $21.something +
>>>>>>>30 min labour= $25
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>All prices is Canadian dollars and from a Honda dealer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>A half-hour of dealer labor is $25? Was this 20 years ago or something?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Dealer shop rate these days is more like $90 per hour. Even higher in some
>>>>>>places. Even the independents are around $60-$70/hr.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And that drain and fill only replaced about half the total fluid, so you'd
>>>>>>need to get it done several times to make sure most of it's fresh.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>--
>>>>>>TeGGeR®
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>That's a big fault that I find with Honda automatics... No converter
>>>>>drain plug.
>>>>>
>>>>>JT
>>>>
>>>>why? it's not necessary. and on a thin sheet converter like this, it
>>>>would not only cause unnecessary balance issues, it would be a potential
>>>>fatigue point.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Why???
>>>
>>>Why should one have to change fluid several times to renew and even
>>>then, some old fluid will remain. It is a major flaw in a lot of modern
>>>tin, er.. plastic.
>>>
>>>There is no excuse for poor serviceability by Honda or any other
>>>manufacturer for that matter.
>>>
>>>Shame on Honda for shaving a few cents in manufacturing savings that
>>>results in a major inconvenience for customers regarding the maintenance
>>>of their cars.
>>>
>>>Just because it's a Honda does not mean it's perfect.
>>>
>>>JT
>>
>>with respect, i don't think you're considering all the design criteria.
>> as far as lubrication is concerned, there's really no need to fret too
>>much about the changes. there's two main sources of fluid problems:
>>contamination and heat degradation. contamination comes from friction
>>lining wear [not as much of an issue with the honda design], from gear
>>tooth wear and to a much lesser extent, bearing wear. as far as gear
>>box control operation is concerned, the filter ensures contaminant
>>particle size is kept below a critical level where they won't cause
>>harm. and as you know, the filter can't be changed]. heat degradation
>>is not common unless service conditions are unusual or there's something
>>wrong. this, in combination with better lube technology these days,
>>means a lot of cars not only specify highly extended change intervals,
>>some [bmw] don't even specify a change at all and don't provide any kind
>>of drain plug! my friend's 88 automatic accord had /never/ had a fluid
>>change in 360k miles [yes, three hundred and sixty thousand miles] and
>>that car ran & shifted like a champ.
>>
>>so, sure, it's a "nice to have" to be able to change 100% of the fluid,
>>but reality is, when looking into the actual service conditions of the
>>lube itself, that it's just not that critical. balance that against the
>>very sound mechanical reasons [converter design] for /not/ putting in a
>>converter drain, and the 100% fluid change concept is easily abandoned.
>
>
>
> Uh, in the Texas heat, dino fluid is good for not much longer than 50K.

texas gets hotter than ca or nv? tx is more humid, but that just
affects wet stuff like humans, not sealed stuff like transmissions.
besides, ambient of 100F isn't exactly extreme for a lubricant.

> Add to this the lack of a filter that cannot be changed (or cleaned)
> plus the lack of a drain plug in the converter (where the majority of
> fluid resides), Honda is shortchanging its customers pure and simple.
> The record of tranny failures speak for itself.

record of tranny failures? 300k on an automatic? name a domestic
that'll regularly and reliably do 300k! i know there's issues with
modern hondas, but what about the 20-odd years prior to that? and
modern failures are gear design problems - nothing to do with excess
fluid contamination. buy a ford, then let's talk about the difference
being able to change the fluid seems to make...

>
> I'm done with this thread.
>
> JT