Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
cover is September 2005.

Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may do
to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.

If you own or are planning to buy a hybrid vehicle, I advise you to read
the article.

Jason

--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:17:32 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

>
>The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
>article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
>cover is September 2005.
>
>Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
>really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
>article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
>those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
>will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may do
>to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.
>

I don't know the specifics but it seems that recycling of such
things is quite common these days.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:17:32 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

>
>The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
>article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
>cover is September 2005.
>
>Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
>really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
>article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
>those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
>will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may do
>to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.
>

I don't know the specifics but it seems that recycling of such
things is quite common these days.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

JeB <no@spam.org> wrote in message
news:veene1dfn37o3oahd24biapf0eqq8qgs8c@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:17:32 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> >
> >The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
> >article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
> >cover is September 2005.
> >
> >Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
> >really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
> >article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
> >those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
> >will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may do
> >to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.
> >
>
> I don't know the specifics but it seems that recycling of such
> things is quite common these days.
>
>
See http://www.batterycouncil.org/news-edf_response.html

Which reads, in part:
5. It's hard to argue with a 97.1 percent recycling rate for battery lead, and
no other battery chemistry can come near that number.

Car batteries are not disposed of. Their materials - mostly lead -- are recycled
indefinitely. The battery industry has been continuously recycling and reusing
lead from old car batteries for more than 50 years. There is virtually no
recycling process for other chemistries, and it's hard to even imagine the cost
of developing a recycling process and infrastructure comparable to what we
already have with lead-acid batteries.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

JeB <no@spam.org> wrote in message
news:veene1dfn37o3oahd24biapf0eqq8qgs8c@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:17:32 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> >
> >The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
> >article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
> >cover is September 2005.
> >
> >Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
> >really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
> >article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
> >those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
> >will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may do
> >to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.
> >
>
> I don't know the specifics but it seems that recycling of such
> things is quite common these days.
>
>
See http://www.batterycouncil.org/news-edf_response.html

Which reads, in part:
5. It's hard to argue with a 97.1 percent recycling rate for battery lead, and
no other battery chemistry can come near that number.

Car batteries are not disposed of. Their materials - mostly lead -- are recycled
indefinitely. The battery industry has been continuously recycling and reusing
lead from old car batteries for more than 50 years. There is virtually no
recycling process for other chemistries, and it's hard to even imagine the cost
of developing a recycling process and infrastructure comparable to what we
already have with lead-acid batteries.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

In article <CpPGe.3405$DJ5.202@trnddc07>, "Doug McCrary"
<DougMcCrary@spamcop.net> wrote:

> JeB <no@spam.org> wrote in message
> news:veene1dfn37o3oahd24biapf0eqq8qgs8c@4ax.com...
> > On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:17:32 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
> > >article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
> > >cover is September 2005.
> > >
> > >Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
> > >really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
> > >article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
> > >those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
> > >will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may do
> > >to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.
> > >
> >
> > I don't know the specifics but it seems that recycling of such
> > things is quite common these days.
> >
> >
> See http://www.batterycouncil.org/news-edf_response.html
>
> Which reads, in part:
> 5. It's hard to argue with a 97.1 percent recycling rate for battery lead, and
> no other battery chemistry can come near that number.
>
> Car batteries are not disposed of. Their materials - mostly lead -- are
recycled
> indefinitely. The battery industry has been continuously recycling and reusing
> lead from old car batteries for more than 50 years. There is virtually no
> recycling process for other chemistries, and it's hard to even imagine
the cost
> of developing a recycling process and infrastructure comparable to what we
> already have with lead-acid batteries.

Hello,
You may be right. I have not done any research on this subject. Brock
Yates--the author of the article--stated the following in his article:
"[Batteries] are hardly biodegradable items like spoiled vegetables. They
are in fact self-contained toxic waste dumps. How and where millions of
these poisonous boxes will be deposited ... has yet to be considered, much
less resolved."
Jason

--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

In article <CpPGe.3405$DJ5.202@trnddc07>, "Doug McCrary"
<DougMcCrary@spamcop.net> wrote:

> JeB <no@spam.org> wrote in message
> news:veene1dfn37o3oahd24biapf0eqq8qgs8c@4ax.com...
> > On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:17:32 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
> > >article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
> > >cover is September 2005.
> > >
> > >Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
> > >really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
> > >article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
> > >those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
> > >will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may do
> > >to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.
> > >
> >
> > I don't know the specifics but it seems that recycling of such
> > things is quite common these days.
> >
> >
> See http://www.batterycouncil.org/news-edf_response.html
>
> Which reads, in part:
> 5. It's hard to argue with a 97.1 percent recycling rate for battery lead, and
> no other battery chemistry can come near that number.
>
> Car batteries are not disposed of. Their materials - mostly lead -- are
recycled
> indefinitely. The battery industry has been continuously recycling and reusing
> lead from old car batteries for more than 50 years. There is virtually no
> recycling process for other chemistries, and it's hard to even imagine
the cost
> of developing a recycling process and infrastructure comparable to what we
> already have with lead-acid batteries.

Hello,
You may be right. I have not done any research on this subject. Brock
Yates--the author of the article--stated the following in his article:
"[Batteries] are hardly biodegradable items like spoiled vegetables. They
are in fact self-contained toxic waste dumps. How and where millions of
these poisonous boxes will be deposited ... has yet to be considered, much
less resolved."
Jason

--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:17:32 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

>
>The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
>article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
>cover is September 2005.

Maybe the author of the article should have done a little actual
research. Here is what Toyota has to say about battery replacement
and recycling:

http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_li...ml?id=20040623

How long does the Prius battery last and what is the replacement cost?

The Prius battery (and the battery-power management system) has been
designed to maximize battery life. In part this is done by keeping the
battery at an optimum charge level - never fully draining it and never
fully recharging it. As a result, the Prius battery leads a pretty
easy life. We have lab data showing the equivalent of 180,000 miles
with no deterioration and expect it to last the life of the vehicle.
We also expect battery technology to continue to improve: the
second-generation model battery is 15% smaller, 25% lighter, and has
35% more specific power than the first. This is true of price as well.
Between the 2003 and 2004 models, service battery costs came down 36%
and we expect them to continue to drop so that by the time
replacements may be needed it won't be a much of an issue. Since the
car went on sale in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for
wear and tear.

Is there a recycling plan in place for nickel-metal hydride batteries?

Toyota has a comprehensive battery recycling program in place and has
been recycling nickel-metal hydride batteries since the RAV4 Electric
Vehicle was introduced in 1998. Every part of the battery, from the
precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case and the wiring, is
recycled. To ensure that batteries come back to Toyota, each battery
has a phone number on it to call for recycling information and dealers
are paid a $200 "bounty" for each battery.

Elliot Richmond
Freelance Science Writer and Editor

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:17:32 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

>
>The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
>article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
>cover is September 2005.

Maybe the author of the article should have done a little actual
research. Here is what Toyota has to say about battery replacement
and recycling:

http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_li...ml?id=20040623

How long does the Prius battery last and what is the replacement cost?

The Prius battery (and the battery-power management system) has been
designed to maximize battery life. In part this is done by keeping the
battery at an optimum charge level - never fully draining it and never
fully recharging it. As a result, the Prius battery leads a pretty
easy life. We have lab data showing the equivalent of 180,000 miles
with no deterioration and expect it to last the life of the vehicle.
We also expect battery technology to continue to improve: the
second-generation model battery is 15% smaller, 25% lighter, and has
35% more specific power than the first. This is true of price as well.
Between the 2003 and 2004 models, service battery costs came down 36%
and we expect them to continue to drop so that by the time
replacements may be needed it won't be a much of an issue. Since the
car went on sale in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for
wear and tear.

Is there a recycling plan in place for nickel-metal hydride batteries?

Toyota has a comprehensive battery recycling program in place and has
been recycling nickel-metal hydride batteries since the RAV4 Electric
Vehicle was introduced in 1998. Every part of the battery, from the
precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case and the wiring, is
recycled. To ensure that batteries come back to Toyota, each battery
has a phone number on it to call for recycling information and dealers
are paid a $200 "bounty" for each battery.

Elliot Richmond
Freelance Science Writer and Editor

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

In article <kknne1t1eropvvu7f34ufmjs6lgtq80uct@4ax.com>,
Elliot Richmond <xmrichmond@xaustin.xrr.xcom> wrote:

> Here is what Toyota has to say about battery replacement
> and recycling:

Spun like a member of the Clinton family.

If you believe Toyota's PR spin 100%, you're in for a big surprise.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

In article <kknne1t1eropvvu7f34ufmjs6lgtq80uct@4ax.com>,
Elliot Richmond <xmrichmond@xaustin.xrr.xcom> wrote:

> Here is what Toyota has to say about battery replacement
> and recycling:

Spun like a member of the Clinton family.

If you believe Toyota's PR spin 100%, you're in for a big surprise.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-E6BE88.18342330072005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
> In article <kknne1t1eropvvu7f34ufmjs6lgtq80uct@4ax.com>,
> Elliot Richmond <xmrichmond@xaustin.xrr.xcom> wrote:
>
>> Here is what Toyota has to say about battery replacement
>> and recycling:
>
> Spun like a member of the Clinton family.
>
> If you believe Toyota's PR spin 100%, you're in for a big surprise.

.....and?
That's it?

Please enlighten us with your wisdom on the subject.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-E6BE88.18342330072005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
> In article <kknne1t1eropvvu7f34ufmjs6lgtq80uct@4ax.com>,
> Elliot Richmond <xmrichmond@xaustin.xrr.xcom> wrote:
>
>> Here is what Toyota has to say about battery replacement
>> and recycling:
>
> Spun like a member of the Clinton family.
>
> If you believe Toyota's PR spin 100%, you're in for a big surprise.

.....and?
That's it?

Please enlighten us with your wisdom on the subject.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

In article <gvqdnUTaMpe6nHHfRVn-hQ@rogers.com>,
"Steve Bigelow" <stevebigelowXXX@rogers.com> wrote:

> > Spun like a member of the Clinton family.
> >
> > If you believe Toyota's PR spin 100%, you're in for a big surprise.
>
> ....and?
> That's it?
>
> Please enlighten us with your wisdom on the subject.

All I'm saying is, Toyota is spinning their side of the story very hard.

Don't accept it at face value. You're a fool if you do. They have an
axe to grind, and they'll spin it however they have to in order to make
themselves look as good as possible and sell as many cars as possible.

In other words, never listen to a car salesman. And that's all that PR
piece is.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

In article <gvqdnUTaMpe6nHHfRVn-hQ@rogers.com>,
"Steve Bigelow" <stevebigelowXXX@rogers.com> wrote:

> > Spun like a member of the Clinton family.
> >
> > If you believe Toyota's PR spin 100%, you're in for a big surprise.
>
> ....and?
> That's it?
>
> Please enlighten us with your wisdom on the subject.

All I'm saying is, Toyota is spinning their side of the story very hard.

Don't accept it at face value. You're a fool if you do. They have an
axe to grind, and they'll spin it however they have to in order to make
themselves look as good as possible and sell as many cars as possible.

In other words, never listen to a car salesman. And that's all that PR
piece is.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in news:jason-3007051017330001@pm4-broad-
55.snlo.dialup.fix.net:

>
> The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
> article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
> cover is September 2005.
>
> Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
> really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
> article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
> those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
> will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may do
> to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.
>
> If you own or are planning to buy a hybrid vehicle, I advise you to read
> the article.
>
> Jason
>

Lead-acid and other types of batteries (NiCd and NiMH,Li-ion)are already
recycled,why should hybrid auto batteries escape that?

IMO,there would be valuable materials that could be recovered,in the
amounts that will be discarded.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in news:jason-3007051017330001@pm4-broad-
55.snlo.dialup.fix.net:

>
> The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
> article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
> cover is September 2005.
>
> Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
> really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
> article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
> those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
> will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may do
> to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.
>
> If you own or are planning to buy a hybrid vehicle, I advise you to read
> the article.
>
> Jason
>

Lead-acid and other types of batteries (NiCd and NiMH,Li-ion)are already
recycled,why should hybrid auto batteries escape that?

IMO,there would be valuable materials that could be recovered,in the
amounts that will be discarded.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
news:jason-3007051241430001@pm4-broad-46.snlo.dialup.fix.net:

> In article <CpPGe.3405$DJ5.202@trnddc07>, "Doug McCrary"
><DougMcCrary@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>> JeB <no@spam.org> wrote in message
>> news:veene1dfn37o3oahd24biapf0eqq8qgs8c@4ax.com...
>> > On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:17:32 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > >The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an
>> > >interesting article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26.
>> > >The date on the cover is September 2005.
>> > >
>> > >Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because
>> > >they really care about the environment. I learned about something
>> > >from the article that I had never thought about before. What's
>> > >going to happen to those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles
>> > >after they wear out? They will be placed in landfills. Imagine the
>> > >harm that those batteries may do to the enviroment after they are
>> > >laying in a landfill for 50 years.
>> > >
>> >
>> > I don't know the specifics but it seems that recycling of such
>> > things is quite common these days.
>> >
>> >
>> See http://www.batterycouncil.org/news-edf_response.html
>>
>> Which reads, in part:
>> 5. It's hard to argue with a 97.1 percent recycling rate for battery
>> lead, and no other battery chemistry can come near that number.
>>
>> Car batteries are not disposed of. Their materials - mostly lead --
>> are
> recycled
>> indefinitely. The battery industry has been continuously recycling
>> and reusing lead from old car batteries for more than 50 years. There
>> is virtually no recycling process for other chemistries, and it's
>> hard to even imagine
> the cost
>> of developing a recycling process and infrastructure comparable to
>> what we already have with lead-acid batteries.
>
> Hello,
> You may be right. I have not done any research on this subject. Brock
> Yates--the author of the article--stated the following in his article:
> "[Batteries] are hardly biodegradable items like spoiled vegetables.
> They are in fact self-contained toxic waste dumps. How and where
> millions of these poisonous boxes will be deposited ... has yet to be
> considered, much less resolved."
> Jason
>

Well,it IS an additional expense that must be factored in.(recycling costs)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
news:jason-3007051241430001@pm4-broad-46.snlo.dialup.fix.net:

> In article <CpPGe.3405$DJ5.202@trnddc07>, "Doug McCrary"
><DougMcCrary@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>> JeB <no@spam.org> wrote in message
>> news:veene1dfn37o3oahd24biapf0eqq8qgs8c@4ax.com...
>> > On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:17:32 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > >The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an
>> > >interesting article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26.
>> > >The date on the cover is September 2005.
>> > >
>> > >Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because
>> > >they really care about the environment. I learned about something
>> > >from the article that I had never thought about before. What's
>> > >going to happen to those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles
>> > >after they wear out? They will be placed in landfills. Imagine the
>> > >harm that those batteries may do to the enviroment after they are
>> > >laying in a landfill for 50 years.
>> > >
>> >
>> > I don't know the specifics but it seems that recycling of such
>> > things is quite common these days.
>> >
>> >
>> See http://www.batterycouncil.org/news-edf_response.html
>>
>> Which reads, in part:
>> 5. It's hard to argue with a 97.1 percent recycling rate for battery
>> lead, and no other battery chemistry can come near that number.
>>
>> Car batteries are not disposed of. Their materials - mostly lead --
>> are
> recycled
>> indefinitely. The battery industry has been continuously recycling
>> and reusing lead from old car batteries for more than 50 years. There
>> is virtually no recycling process for other chemistries, and it's
>> hard to even imagine
> the cost
>> of developing a recycling process and infrastructure comparable to
>> what we already have with lead-acid batteries.
>
> Hello,
> You may be right. I have not done any research on this subject. Brock
> Yates--the author of the article--stated the following in his article:
> "[Batteries] are hardly biodegradable items like spoiled vegetables.
> They are in fact self-contained toxic waste dumps. How and where
> millions of these poisonous boxes will be deposited ... has yet to be
> considered, much less resolved."
> Jason
>

Well,it IS an additional expense that must be factored in.(recycling costs)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

"Steve Bigelow" <stevebigelowXXX@rogers.com> wrote in
news:gvqdnUTaMpe6nHHfRVn-hQ@rogers.com:

>
> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
> news:elmop-E6BE88.18342330072005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
>> In article <kknne1t1eropvvu7f34ufmjs6lgtq80uct@4ax.com>,
>> Elliot Richmond <xmrichmond@xaustin.xrr.xcom> wrote:
>>
>>> Here is what Toyota has to say about battery replacement
>>> and recycling:
>>
>> Spun like a member of the Clinton family.
>>
>> If you believe Toyota's PR spin 100%, you're in for a big surprise.
>
> ....and?
> That's it?
>
> Please enlighten us with your wisdom on the subject.
>
>
>

NiMH and NiCd can only be recharged a number of times before their capacity
drops off,and L-A batteries suffer from sulfation,electrolyte loss,and
vibration/shock damage(material falls out of the lead grids,shorts the
cell). Hot environments like the Southwest and Florida will shorten battery
life further.
I don't know of any rechargeable battery chemistry that can be recharged
100,000 times.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

"Steve Bigelow" <stevebigelowXXX@rogers.com> wrote in
news:gvqdnUTaMpe6nHHfRVn-hQ@rogers.com:

>
> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
> news:elmop-E6BE88.18342330072005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
>> In article <kknne1t1eropvvu7f34ufmjs6lgtq80uct@4ax.com>,
>> Elliot Richmond <xmrichmond@xaustin.xrr.xcom> wrote:
>>
>>> Here is what Toyota has to say about battery replacement
>>> and recycling:
>>
>> Spun like a member of the Clinton family.
>>
>> If you believe Toyota's PR spin 100%, you're in for a big surprise.
>
> ....and?
> That's it?
>
> Please enlighten us with your wisdom on the subject.
>
>
>

NiMH and NiCd can only be recharged a number of times before their capacity
drops off,and L-A batteries suffer from sulfation,electrolyte loss,and
vibration/shock damage(material falls out of the lead grids,shorts the
cell). Hot environments like the Southwest and Florida will shorten battery
life further.
I don't know of any rechargeable battery chemistry that can be recharged
100,000 times.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

>>Car batteries are not disposed of. Their materials - mostly lead -- are
recycled indefinitely. The battery industry has been continuously recycling
and reusing lead from old car batteries for more than 50 years.<<

Only problem is: The high-voltage hybrid batteries are not lead-acid, but
nickel-metal-hydride (NiMH).

>>Brock Yates--the author of the article--stated the following in his
article: "[Batteries] are hardly biodegradable items like spoiled
vegetables. They are in fact self-contained toxic waste dumps. How and where
millions of these poisonous boxes will be deposited ... has yet to be
considered, much less resolved."<<

For Brock Yates, a reactionary conservative, to even mention recycling is
amazing all by itself...but that sounds to me as if he's making an
assumption. I'd like to hear what Honda and the other makers of hybrids
have to say about it.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

>>Car batteries are not disposed of. Their materials - mostly lead -- are
recycled indefinitely. The battery industry has been continuously recycling
and reusing lead from old car batteries for more than 50 years.<<

Only problem is: The high-voltage hybrid batteries are not lead-acid, but
nickel-metal-hydride (NiMH).

>>Brock Yates--the author of the article--stated the following in his
article: "[Batteries] are hardly biodegradable items like spoiled
vegetables. They are in fact self-contained toxic waste dumps. How and where
millions of these poisonous boxes will be deposited ... has yet to be
considered, much less resolved."<<

For Brock Yates, a reactionary conservative, to even mention recycling is
amazing all by itself...but that sounds to me as if he's making an
assumption. I'd like to hear what Honda and the other makers of hybrids
have to say about it.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

>>All I'm saying is, Toyota is spinning their side of the story very
hard...In other words, never listen to a car salesman. And that's all that
PR piece is.<<

Right. However, according to you we should believe any yahoo who posts
under an assumed name in a newsgroup, without any proof whatsoever.

Thanks. I needed a good laugh today.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

>>All I'm saying is, Toyota is spinning their side of the story very
hard...In other words, never listen to a car salesman. And that's all that
PR piece is.<<

Right. However, according to you we should believe any yahoo who posts
under an assumed name in a newsgroup, without any proof whatsoever.

Thanks. I needed a good laugh today.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in message
news:Xns96A3D40B3EA56jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
> jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in news:jason-3007051017330001@pm4-broad-
> 55.snlo.dialup.fix.net:
>
> >
> > The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
> > article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
> > cover is September 2005.
> >
> > Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
> > really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
> > article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
> > those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
> > will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may do
> > to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.
> >
> > If you own or are planning to buy a hybrid vehicle, I advise you to read
> > the article.
> >
> > Jason
> >
>
> Lead-acid and other types of batteries (NiCd and NiMH,Li-ion)are already
> recycled,why should hybrid auto batteries escape that?
>
Apparently, not. http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/WPIE/Batteries/
.... After February 8, 2006, all batteries in California must be recycled, or
taken to a household hazardous waste disposal facility, a universal waste
handler (e.g., storage facility or broker), or an authorized recycling facility.
....
It looks like that's partly due to federal regs, but I'm too lazy to look.

> IMO,there would be valuable materials that could be recovered,in the
> amounts that will be discarded.
>
> --
> Jim Yanik
> jyanik
> at
> kua.net

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in message
news:Xns96A3D40B3EA56jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
> jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in news:jason-3007051017330001@pm4-broad-
> 55.snlo.dialup.fix.net:
>
> >
> > The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
> > article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
> > cover is September 2005.
> >
> > Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
> > really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
> > article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
> > those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
> > will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may do
> > to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.
> >
> > If you own or are planning to buy a hybrid vehicle, I advise you to read
> > the article.
> >
> > Jason
> >
>
> Lead-acid and other types of batteries (NiCd and NiMH,Li-ion)are already
> recycled,why should hybrid auto batteries escape that?
>
Apparently, not. http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/WPIE/Batteries/
.... After February 8, 2006, all batteries in California must be recycled, or
taken to a household hazardous waste disposal facility, a universal waste
handler (e.g., storage facility or broker), or an authorized recycling facility.
....
It looks like that's partly due to federal regs, but I'm too lazy to look.

> IMO,there would be valuable materials that could be recovered,in the
> amounts that will be discarded.
>
> --
> Jim Yanik
> jyanik
> at
> kua.net

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

There is a new thing called "recycling"

"Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-3007051017330001@pm4-broad-55.snlo.dialup.fix.net...
>
> The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
> article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
> cover is September 2005.
>
> Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
> really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
> article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
> those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
> will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may do
> to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.
>
> If you own or are planning to buy a hybrid vehicle, I advise you to read
> the article.
>
> Jason
>
> --
> NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
> We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
> We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.
>
>
>

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

There is a new thing called "recycling"

"Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-3007051017330001@pm4-broad-55.snlo.dialup.fix.net...
>
> The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
> article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
> cover is September 2005.
>
> Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
> really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
> article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
> those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
> will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may do
> to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.
>
> If you own or are planning to buy a hybrid vehicle, I advise you to read
> the article.
>
> Jason
>
> --
> NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
> We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
> We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.
>
>
>

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:17:32 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

>
>The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
>article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
>cover is September 2005.
>
>Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
>really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
>article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
>those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
>will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may do
>to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.
>
>If you own or are planning to buy a hybrid vehicle, I advise you to read
>the article.
>
>Jason
Pfft, missing the point. The point is that they're ONLY getting
40-45mpg. Many non-hybrids on sale in the EU will easily beat that.
For isntance, n the UK, a VW lupo returned to one of the most
outspoken motoring journalists int he world, an AVERAGE of 65mpg
Hybrids are a Pr stunt only.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:17:32 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

>
>The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
>article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
>cover is September 2005.
>
>Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
>really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
>article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
>those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
>will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may do
>to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.
>
>If you own or are planning to buy a hybrid vehicle, I advise you to read
>the article.
>
>Jason
Pfft, missing the point. The point is that they're ONLY getting
40-45mpg. Many non-hybrids on sale in the EU will easily beat that.
For isntance, n the UK, a VW lupo returned to one of the most
outspoken motoring journalists int he world, an AVERAGE of 65mpg
Hybrids are a Pr stunt only.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

The Hybrids are not a lead acid type. Over 240(?) small batteries of some
sort.



--
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Undercar Specialist
"Doug McCrary" <DougMcCrary@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:CpPGe.3405$DJ5.202@trnddc07...
>
> JeB <no@spam.org> wrote in message
> news:veene1dfn37o3oahd24biapf0eqq8qgs8c@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:17:32 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
>> >article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
>> >cover is September 2005.
>> >
>> >Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
>> >really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
>> >article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
>> >those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
>> >will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may
>> >do
>> >to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.
>> >
>>
>> I don't know the specifics but it seems that recycling of such
>> things is quite common these days.
>>
>>
> See http://www.batterycouncil.org/news-edf_response.html
>
> Which reads, in part:
> 5. It's hard to argue with a 97.1 percent recycling rate for battery lead,
> and
> no other battery chemistry can come near that number.
>
> Car batteries are not disposed of. Their materials - mostly lead -- are
> recycled
> indefinitely. The battery industry has been continuously recycling and
> reusing
> lead from old car batteries for more than 50 years. There is virtually no
> recycling process for other chemistries, and it's hard to even imagine the
> cost
> of developing a recycling process and infrastructure comparable to what we
> already have with lead-acid batteries.
>
>
>

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

The Hybrids are not a lead acid type. Over 240(?) small batteries of some
sort.



--
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Undercar Specialist
"Doug McCrary" <DougMcCrary@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:CpPGe.3405$DJ5.202@trnddc07...
>
> JeB <no@spam.org> wrote in message
> news:veene1dfn37o3oahd24biapf0eqq8qgs8c@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:17:32 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
>> >article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
>> >cover is September 2005.
>> >
>> >Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
>> >really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
>> >article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
>> >those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
>> >will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may
>> >do
>> >to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.
>> >
>>
>> I don't know the specifics but it seems that recycling of such
>> things is quite common these days.
>>
>>
> See http://www.batterycouncil.org/news-edf_response.html
>
> Which reads, in part:
> 5. It's hard to argue with a 97.1 percent recycling rate for battery lead,
> and
> no other battery chemistry can come near that number.
>
> Car batteries are not disposed of. Their materials - mostly lead -- are
> recycled
> indefinitely. The battery industry has been continuously recycling and
> reusing
> lead from old car batteries for more than 50 years. There is virtually no
> recycling process for other chemistries, and it's hard to even imagine the
> cost
> of developing a recycling process and infrastructure comparable to what we
> already have with lead-acid batteries.
>
>
>

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

In article <xvednayvPZZBqHHfRVn-tg@comcast.com>,
"Sid Schweiger" <spam@this.cretin> wrote:

> >>All I'm saying is, Toyota is spinning their side of the story very
> hard...In other words, never listen to a car salesman. And that's all that
> PR piece is.<<
>
> Right. However, according to you we should believe any yahoo who posts
> under an assumed name in a newsgroup, without any proof whatsoever.
>
> Thanks. I needed a good laugh today.

Hmmmmmm. I'm not saying to believe or disbelieve; I'm simply pointing
out that, like any good corporate PR machine, Toyota is spinning their
side of the story very hard in order to sell more stuff. By that token,
you shouldn't simply believe it wholesale without investigating it more.

But because I'm saying that, you decide that Toyota's press release must
be 100% correct and truthful?

You lead an interesting life.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

In article <xvednayvPZZBqHHfRVn-tg@comcast.com>,
"Sid Schweiger" <spam@this.cretin> wrote:

> >>All I'm saying is, Toyota is spinning their side of the story very
> hard...In other words, never listen to a car salesman. And that's all that
> PR piece is.<<
>
> Right. However, according to you we should believe any yahoo who posts
> under an assumed name in a newsgroup, without any proof whatsoever.
>
> Thanks. I needed a good laugh today.

Hmmmmmm. I'm not saying to believe or disbelieve; I'm simply pointing
out that, like any good corporate PR machine, Toyota is spinning their
side of the story very hard in order to sell more stuff. By that token,
you shouldn't simply believe it wholesale without investigating it more.

But because I'm saying that, you decide that Toyota's press release must
be 100% correct and truthful?

You lead an interesting life.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in message
news:Xns96A3D50822383jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
> "Steve Bigelow" <stevebigelowXXX@rogers.com> wrote in
> news:gvqdnUTaMpe6nHHfRVn-hQ@rogers.com:
>
>>
>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
>> news:elmop-E6BE88.18342330072005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
>>> In article <kknne1t1eropvvu7f34ufmjs6lgtq80uct@4ax.com>,
>>> Elliot Richmond <xmrichmond@xaustin.xrr.xcom> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Here is what Toyota has to say about battery replacement
>>>> and recycling:
>>>
>>> Spun like a member of the Clinton family.
>>>
>>> If you believe Toyota's PR spin 100%, you're in for a big surprise.
>>
>> ....and?
>> That's it?
>>
>> Please enlighten us with your wisdom on the subject.
>>
>>
>>
>
> NiMH and NiCd can only be recharged a number of times before their
> capacity
> drops off,and L-A batteries suffer from sulfation,electrolyte loss,and
> vibration/shock damage(material falls out of the lead grids,shorts the
> cell). Hot environments like the Southwest and Florida will shorten
> battery
> life further.
> I don't know of any rechargeable battery chemistry that can be recharged
> 100,000 times.

Well, a hybrids' certainly wouldn't need to unless it only got 3 miles per
charge.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in message
news:Xns96A3D50822383jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
> "Steve Bigelow" <stevebigelowXXX@rogers.com> wrote in
> news:gvqdnUTaMpe6nHHfRVn-hQ@rogers.com:
>
>>
>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
>> news:elmop-E6BE88.18342330072005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
>>> In article <kknne1t1eropvvu7f34ufmjs6lgtq80uct@4ax.com>,
>>> Elliot Richmond <xmrichmond@xaustin.xrr.xcom> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Here is what Toyota has to say about battery replacement
>>>> and recycling:
>>>
>>> Spun like a member of the Clinton family.
>>>
>>> If you believe Toyota's PR spin 100%, you're in for a big surprise.
>>
>> ....and?
>> That's it?
>>
>> Please enlighten us with your wisdom on the subject.
>>
>>
>>
>
> NiMH and NiCd can only be recharged a number of times before their
> capacity
> drops off,and L-A batteries suffer from sulfation,electrolyte loss,and
> vibration/shock damage(material falls out of the lead grids,shorts the
> cell). Hot environments like the Southwest and Florida will shorten
> battery
> life further.
> I don't know of any rechargeable battery chemistry that can be recharged
> 100,000 times.

Well, a hybrids' certainly wouldn't need to unless it only got 3 miles per
charge.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

The sky is falling! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Jason wrote:

> The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
> article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
> cover is September 2005.
>
> Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
> really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
> article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
> those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
> will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may do
> to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.
>
> If you own or are planning to buy a hybrid vehicle, I advise you to read
> the article.
>
> Jason
>
> --
> NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
> We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
> We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

--
Tp,

-------- __o
----- -\<. -------- __o
--- ( )/ ( ) ---- -\<.
-------------------- ( )/ ( )
-----------------------------------------

No Lawsuit Ever Fixed A Moron...

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

The sky is falling! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Jason wrote:

> The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
> article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
> cover is September 2005.
>
> Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
> really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
> article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
> those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
> will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may do
> to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.
>
> If you own or are planning to buy a hybrid vehicle, I advise you to read
> the article.
>
> Jason
>
> --
> NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
> We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
> We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

--
Tp,

-------- __o
----- -\<. -------- __o
--- ( )/ ( ) ---- -\<.
-------------------- ( )/ ( )
-----------------------------------------

No Lawsuit Ever Fixed A Moron...

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

"Doug McCrary" <DougMcCrary@spamcop.net> wrote in
news:yIWGe.12547$W%5.11957@trnddc05:

>
> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in message
> news:Xns96A3D40B3EA56jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
>> jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
>> news:jason-3007051017330001@pm4-broad- 55.snlo.dialup.fix.net:
>>
>> >
>> > The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an
>> > interesting article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26.
>> > The date on the cover is September 2005.
>> >
>> > Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because
>> > they really care about the environment. I learned about something
>> > from the article that I had never thought about before. What's
>> > going to happen to those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles
>> > after they wear out? They will be placed in landfills. Imagine the
>> > harm that those batteries may do to the enviroment after they are
>> > laying in a landfill for 50 years.
>> >
>> > If you own or are planning to buy a hybrid vehicle, I advise you to
>> > read the article.
>> >
>> > Jason
>> >
>>
>> Lead-acid and other types of batteries (NiCd and NiMH,Li-ion)are
>> already recycled,why should hybrid auto batteries escape that?
>>
> Apparently, not. http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/WPIE/Batteries/
> ... After February 8, 2006, all batteries in California must be
> recycled, or taken to a household hazardous waste disposal facility, a
> universal waste handler (e.g., storage facility or broker), or an
> authorized recycling facility. ...
> It looks like that's partly due to federal regs, but I'm too lazy to
> look.
>
>> IMO,there would be valuable materials that could be recovered,in the
>> amounts that will be discarded.
>>
>> --
>> Jim Yanik
>> jyanik
>> at
>> kua.net
>
>
>

Sure,there are many people who just toss their batteries in the trash,just
because they are unaware of alternatives,or just take the easiest route.

But Radio Shack and other stores that sell batteries accept them for
recycling.And most auto stores require a "core" fee that is refunded when
you return the old LA battery,and they send them off for recycling.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net