Re: Disabling ABS
 

"joe" <joe@yahoo.org> wrote in message
news:09ahs19fm68qbftpi6s6t708vt6ciqldu3@4ax.com...
> Sounds like the best solution is to have a toggle switch to turn ABS
> on and off as appropriate. Does anyone know of an easy way to do this
> without damaging the car?

That would be tricky since I think the fuse for the ABS system is under the
hood as opposed to in the dash. I would also be a little concerned about
the legality of disabling a safety feature that the car came equipped with.
I think some jurisdiction forbid the disabling of standard safety features.
This became an issue when some people wanted to disable air bags for
personal safety reasons. I've been told for example, that in many Canadian
provinces, disabling the air bags is illegal since they came with the car as
a safety feature. ABS may also fall under that category. In addition, if
you were to have an accident and your insurance company discovered that you
disabled your ABS, they could technically refuse coverage by arguing that
the missing safety feature was a contributing factor in the accident. Just
a little food for thought.

Re: Disabling ABS
 

You are all overlooking a key feature of ABS... that nobody has
mentioned. It's the ability to steer after you stomp on the brake in a
panic situation. This steering ability could be key in crash
avoidance...

Professor
www.telstar-electronics.com

Re: Disabling ABS
 

Professor wrote:
> You are all overlooking a key feature of ABS... that nobody has
> mentioned. It's the ability to steer after you stomp on the brake in a
> panic situation. This steering ability could be key in crash
> avoidance...
>
> Professor
> www.telstar-electronics.com
>
dude, you can /only/ steer if you have sufficient adhesion. just
because you have abs doesn't mean you can steer. all that abs achieves,
and my grandmother is a great example of this, is some hope of
crash-avoidance in a situation where a panicking driver locks the wheels
and won't release them again. /you/ seem to be overlooking the key
disclaimer of the owners manual.

Re: Disabling ABS
 

I think you better sit back and have another whiskey... Jim Beam

Professor
www.telstar-electronics.com

Re: Disabling ABS
 

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:McWdnZWvKfZRFFTeRVn-qw@speakeasy.net...
> Professor wrote:
> > You are all overlooking a key feature of ABS... that nobody has
> > mentioned. It's the ability to steer after you stomp on the brake in a
> > panic situation. This steering ability could be key in crash
> > avoidance...
> >
> > Professor
> > www.telstar-electronics.com
> >
> dude,

"you can /only/ steer if you have sufficient adhesion."

Exactly, it's anti-LOCK brakes, not anti-skid brakes. If you are doing 30
miles per hour on an icy turn and you slam on the brakes, the wheel may not
lock but there is a decent chance the car's inertia will make you slide on
the ice because of the sudden deceleration, front tires without traction
don't steer, even if they are turning.

Mr. Professor seems to assume that all people slam on the brakes with full
force in a panic situation. There are some of us who have had driver
training and learned "threshold braking". It's basically the manual way of
doing what ABS is doing. There's called skills. ABS was invented to
protect the people who don't know that technique. As for the professor's
question in an earlier post about some being able to outperform the
computer, properly exacuted threshold braking can stop a car in a shorter
distance than ABS.

No computer system will ever be able to outperform a skilled driver. The
key word being "skilled". Not everyone is. This is why ABS exist.


> because you have abs doesn't mean you can steer. all that abs achieves,
> and my grandmother is a great example of this, is some hope of
> crash-avoidance in a situation where a panicking driver locks the wheels
> and won't release them again. /you/ seem to be overlooking the key
> disclaimer of the owners manual.

Re: Disabling ABS
 

I'm just glad you guys aren't designing my car!... LOL

Professor
www.telstar-electronics.com

Re: Disabling ABS
 

Sean D wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:McWdnZWvKfZRFFTeRVn-qw@speakeasy.net...
>
>>Professor wrote:
>>
>>>You are all overlooking a key feature of ABS... that nobody has
>>>mentioned. It's the ability to steer after you stomp on the brake in a
>>>panic situation. This steering ability could be key in crash
>>>avoidance...
>>>
>>>Professor
>>>www.telstar-electronics.com
>>>
>>
>>dude,
>
>
> "you can /only/ steer if you have sufficient adhesion."
>
> Exactly, it's anti-LOCK brakes, not anti-skid brakes. If you are doing 30
> miles per hour on an icy turn and you slam on the brakes, the wheel may not
> lock but there is a decent chance the car's inertia will make you slide on
> the ice because of the sudden deceleration, front tires without traction
> don't steer, even if they are turning.
>
> Mr. Professor seems to assume that all people slam on the brakes with full
> force in a panic situation. There are some of us who have had driver
> training and learned "threshold braking". It's basically the manual way of
> doing what ABS is doing. There's called skills. ABS was invented to
> protect the people who don't know that technique. As for the professor's
> question in an earlier post about some being able to outperform the
> computer, properly exacuted threshold braking can stop a car in a shorter
> distance than ABS.
>
> No computer system will ever be able to outperform a skilled driver.

technically, that's not quite correct, but the conditions under which
abs outperforms a skilled driver are fairly narrow in scope and require
the abs to "know" the difference between tires, road conditions, etc.
all current abs systems "know" [afaik] is whether the wheel is locked or
not, and that's "dumb".

> The
> key word being "skilled". Not everyone is. This is why ABS exist.

my experience with abs is that it's actually a very good idea on garbage
slush boxes like buicks. for cars like that, the suspension is so soft,
that sudden application of the brakes is initially taken up in the
"slush" of suspension travel, not road resistance, and the wheel can
almost instantaneously lock. as there's almost no driver feedback, the
driver doesn't know what's going on until the whole car is starting to
break loose - not good. and in this situation, i think the compromise
that is abs is on balance a good idea. with a honda otoh, it's light,
tight, and the driver can instantly feel what's going on, /way/ before
the car brakes loose. the suspension is /not/ sloppy, so the "instant
lock" phenomenon is not a feature of daily driving. in this case, i
think abs is an option, and something i personally declined when i
bought a new civic back in 2000.

>
>
>
>>because you have abs doesn't mean you can steer. all that abs achieves,
>>and my grandmother is a great example of this, is some hope of
>>crash-avoidance in a situation where a panicking driver locks the wheels
>>and won't release them again. /you/ seem to be overlooking the key
>>disclaimer of the owners manual.
>
>
>

Re: Disabling ABS
 

Professor wrote:
> I'm just glad you guys aren't designing my car!... LOL
>
> Professor
> www.telstar-electronics.com
>
don't you think it a high risk strategy to call yourself "professor" if
you don't know what you're talking about? and worse, don't know when to
not /prove/ you don't know what you're talking about?

Re: Disabling ABS
 

On 14 Jan 2006 13:36:44 -0800, "Professor"
<briangriffey@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>You are all overlooking a key feature of ABS... that nobody has
>mentioned. It's the ability to steer after you stomp on the brake in a
>panic situation. This steering ability could be key in crash
>avoidance...
>
>Professor
>www.telstar-electronics.com

You are absolutely correct. I have seen this demonstrated at two
performance driving schools I attented. After the instructors finished
the demonstration, the students got a chance to try it. It made me a
believer. I'm sure I'll get replies saying I don't know what I'm
talking about and the instructors didn't either. I'll give my response
ahead of time. Spend a few days and a little money and go to a
school taught by professional drivers. You will be amazed at what you
will learn.

Re: Disabling ABS
 

jerri wrote:
> On 14 Jan 2006 13:36:44 -0800, "Professor"
> <briangriffey@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>>You are all overlooking a key feature of ABS... that nobody has
>>mentioned. It's the ability to steer after you stomp on the brake in a
>>panic situation. This steering ability could be key in crash
>>avoidance...
>>
>>Professor
>>www.telstar-electronics.com
>
>
> You are absolutely correct. I have seen this demonstrated at two
> performance driving schools I attented. After the instructors finished
> the demonstration, the students got a chance to try it. It made me a
> believer. I'm sure I'll get replies saying I don't know what I'm
> talking about and the instructors didn't either. I'll give my response
> ahead of time. Spend a few days and a little money and go to a
> school taught by professional drivers. You will be amazed at what you
> will learn.

the place for abs is on slush buckets where the driver has no feedback
on what's happening with the wheels, trucks where the driver has no
feedback on what's happening with the wheels, locomotives where the
driver has no feedback on what's happening with the wheels, planes
where... get the idea?

for a light & tight vehicle like a honda [this /is/ a honda group,
right?] it's only necessary if the driver can't/won't/doesn't threshold
brake.

braking distance is a function of energy absorbed. abs chops up the
absorption curve into chunks as it goes above and below threshold
repeatedly. the abs can't moderate the degree of pressure to achieve
threshold, nor can it hold it at threshold. all it can do is sense
whether the wheel is locked, release, and so on. each time it releases,
it passes threshold, each time it releases, it passes threshold. this
may be fine in reasonable friction conditions where the braking effect
between each release is considerable and the total energy absorbed
quickly accumulates, but in low friction conditions, this can introduce
considerable time delay into the energy absorption equation. try
stopping quickly in snow with abs and see where it gets you.

Re: Disabling ABS
 

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 19:18:13 -0800, jim beam <nospam@example.net>
wrote:

>jerri wrote:
>> On 14 Jan 2006 13:36:44 -0800, "Professor"
>> <briangriffey@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>You are all overlooking a key feature of ABS... that nobody has
>>>mentioned. It's the ability to steer after you stomp on the brake in a
>>>panic situation. This steering ability could be key in crash
>>>avoidance...
>>>
>>>Professor
>>>www.telstar-electronics.com
>>
>>
>> You are absolutely correct. I have seen this demonstrated at two
>> performance driving schools I attented. After the instructors finished
>> the demonstration, the students got a chance to try it. It made me a
>> believer. I'm sure I'll get replies saying I don't know what I'm
>> talking about and the instructors didn't either. I'll give my response
>> ahead of time. Spend a few days and a little money and go to a
>> school taught by professional drivers. You will be amazed at what you
>> will learn.
>
>the place for abs is on slush buckets where the driver has no feedback
>on what's happening with the wheels, trucks where the driver has no
>feedback on what's happening with the wheels, locomotives where the
>driver has no feedback on what's happening with the wheels, planes
>where... get the idea?
>
>for a light & tight vehicle like a honda [this /is/ a honda group,
>right?] it's only necessary if the driver can't/won't/doesn't threshold
>brake.
>
>braking distance is a function of energy absorbed. abs chops up the
>absorption curve into chunks as it goes above and below threshold
>repeatedly. the abs can't moderate the degree of pressure to achieve
>threshold, nor can it hold it at threshold. all it can do is sense
>whether the wheel is locked, release, and so on. each time it releases,
>it passes threshold, each time it releases, it passes threshold. this
>may be fine in reasonable friction conditions where the braking effect
>between each release is considerable and the total energy absorbed
>quickly accumulates, but in low friction conditions, this can introduce
>considerable time delay into the energy absorption equation. try
>stopping quickly in snow with abs and see where it gets you.


My prediction was correct. I knew it would be. IRMC. BTW: Your "Shift
Key" isn't working. PLONK! You won't stir my pot again.

Re: Disabling ABS
 

jerri wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 19:18:13 -0800, jim beam <nospam@example.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>jerri wrote:
>>
>>>On 14 Jan 2006 13:36:44 -0800, "Professor"
>>><briangriffey@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>You are all overlooking a key feature of ABS... that nobody has
>>>>mentioned. It's the ability to steer after you stomp on the brake in a
>>>>panic situation. This steering ability could be key in crash
>>>>avoidance...
>>>>
>>>>Professor
>>>>www.telstar-electronics.com
>>>
>>>
>>>You are absolutely correct. I have seen this demonstrated at two
>>>performance driving schools I attented. After the instructors finished
>>>the demonstration, the students got a chance to try it. It made me a
>>>believer. I'm sure I'll get replies saying I don't know what I'm
>>>talking about and the instructors didn't either. I'll give my response
>>>ahead of time. Spend a few days and a little money and go to a
>>>school taught by professional drivers. You will be amazed at what you
>>>will learn.
>>
>>the place for abs is on slush buckets where the driver has no feedback
>>on what's happening with the wheels, trucks where the driver has no
>>feedback on what's happening with the wheels, locomotives where the
>>driver has no feedback on what's happening with the wheels, planes
>>where... get the idea?
>>
>>for a light & tight vehicle like a honda [this /is/ a honda group,
>>right?] it's only necessary if the driver can't/won't/doesn't threshold
>>brake.
>>
>>braking distance is a function of energy absorbed. abs chops up the
>>absorption curve into chunks as it goes above and below threshold
>>repeatedly. the abs can't moderate the degree of pressure to achieve
>>threshold, nor can it hold it at threshold. all it can do is sense
>>whether the wheel is locked, release, and so on. each time it releases,
>>it passes threshold, each time it releases, it passes threshold. this
>>may be fine in reasonable friction conditions where the braking effect
>>between each release is considerable and the total energy absorbed
>>quickly accumulates, but in low friction conditions, this can introduce
>>considerable time delay into the energy absorption equation. try
>>stopping quickly in snow with abs and see where it gets you.
>
>
>
> My prediction was correct. I knew it would be. IRMC. BTW: Your "Shift
> Key" isn't working. PLONK! You won't stir my pot again.

a worthy technical analysis. thanks for contributing to the knowledge
pool by sharing your expertise.

Re: Disabling ABS
 

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 20:50:40 -0500, "Sean D" <sdonaher@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

>
>"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
>news:McWdnZWvKfZRFFTeRVn-qw@speakeasy.net...
>> Professor wrote:
>> > You are all overlooking a key feature of ABS... that nobody has
>> > mentioned. It's the ability to steer after you stomp on the brake in a
>> > panic situation. This steering ability could be key in crash
>> > avoidance...
>> >
>> > Professor
>> > www.telstar-electronics.com
>> >
>> dude,
>
>"you can /only/ steer if you have sufficient adhesion."
>
>Exactly, it's anti-LOCK brakes, not anti-skid brakes. If you are doing 30
>miles per hour on an icy turn and you slam on the brakes, the wheel may not
>lock but there is a decent chance the car's inertia will make you slide on
>the ice because of the sudden deceleration, front tires without traction
>don't steer, even if they are turning.
>
>Mr. Professor seems to assume that all people slam on the brakes with full
>force in a panic situation. There are some of us who have had driver
>training and learned "threshold braking".

Actually, its properly called Cadence braking

> It's basically the manual way of
>doing what ABS is doing. There's called skills. ABS was invented to
>protect the people who don't know that technique. As for the professor's
>question in an earlier post about some being able to outperform the
>computer, properly exacuted threshold braking can stop a car in a shorter
>distance than ABS.
>
>No computer system will ever be able to outperform a skilled driver. The
>key word being "skilled". Not everyone is. This is why ABS exist.
>
>
>> because you have abs doesn't mean you can steer. all that abs achieves,
>> and my grandmother is a great example of this, is some hope of
>> crash-avoidance in a situation where a panicking driver locks the wheels
>> and won't release them again. /you/ seem to be overlooking the key
>> disclaimer of the owners manual.
>

Re: Disabling ABS
 

"flobert" <nomail@here.NOT> wrote in message
news:i0k2t1t94gr91ve2nj0183ejkaptgk1mm2@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 20:50:40 -0500, "Sean D" <sdonaher@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> >news:McWdnZWvKfZRFFTeRVn-qw@speakeasy.net...
> >> Professor wrote:
> >> > You are all overlooking a key feature of ABS... that nobody has
> >> > mentioned. It's the ability to steer after you stomp on the brake in
a
> >> > panic situation. This steering ability could be key in crash
> >> > avoidance...
> >> >
> >> > Professor
> >> > www.telstar-electronics.com
> >> >
> >> dude,
> >
> >"you can /only/ steer if you have sufficient adhesion."
> >
> >Exactly, it's anti-LOCK brakes, not anti-skid brakes. If you are doing
30
> >miles per hour on an icy turn and you slam on the brakes, the wheel may
not
> >lock but there is a decent chance the car's inertia will make you slide
on
> >the ice because of the sudden deceleration, front tires without traction
> >don't steer, even if they are turning.
> >
> >Mr. Professor seems to assume that all people slam on the brakes with
full
> >force in a panic situation. There are some of us who have had driver
> >training and learned "threshold braking".
>
> Actually, its properly called Cadence braking

If you'd bothered to google both terms you'd know that they are both equally
accepted terms for basically the same technique.

>
> > It's basically the manual way of
> >doing what ABS is doing. There's called skills. ABS was invented to
> >protect the people who don't know that technique. As for the professor's
> >question in an earlier post about some being able to outperform the
> >computer, properly exacuted threshold braking can stop a car in a shorter
> >distance than ABS.
> >
> >No computer system will ever be able to outperform a skilled driver. The
> >key word being "skilled". Not everyone is. This is why ABS exist.
> >
> >
> >> because you have abs doesn't mean you can steer. all that abs
achieves,
> >> and my grandmother is a great example of this, is some hope of
> >> crash-avoidance in a situation where a panicking driver locks the
wheels
> >> and won't release them again. /you/ seem to be overlooking the key
> >> disclaimer of the owners manual.
> >
>

Re: Disabling ABS
 

Sean D wrote:
> "flobert" <nomail@here.NOT> wrote in message
> news:i0k2t1t94gr91ve2nj0183ejkaptgk1mm2@4ax.com...
>
>>On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 20:50:40 -0500, "Sean D" <sdonaher@sympatico.ca>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
>>>news:McWdnZWvKfZRFFTeRVn-qw@speakeasy.net...
>>>
>>>>Professor wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>You are all overlooking a key feature of ABS... that nobody has
>>>>>mentioned. It's the ability to steer after you stomp on the brake in
>
> a
>
>>>>>panic situation. This steering ability could be key in crash
>>>>>avoidance...
>>>>>
>>>>>Professor
>>>>>www.telstar-electronics.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>dude,
>>>
>>>"you can /only/ steer if you have sufficient adhesion."
>>>
>>>Exactly, it's anti-LOCK brakes, not anti-skid brakes. If you are doing
>
> 30
>
>>>miles per hour on an icy turn and you slam on the brakes, the wheel may
>
> not
>
>>>lock but there is a decent chance the car's inertia will make you slide
>
> on
>
>>>the ice because of the sudden deceleration, front tires without traction
>>>don't steer, even if they are turning.
>>>
>>>Mr. Professor seems to assume that all people slam on the brakes with
>
> full
>
>>>force in a panic situation. There are some of us who have had driver
>>>training and learned "threshold braking".
>>
>>Actually, its properly called Cadence braking
>
>
> If you'd bothered to google both terms you'd know that they are both equally
> accepted terms for basically the same technique.

not really. cadence, like abs, is where you pass /through/ the
threshold of adhesion, lock and have to release. threshold is where you
brake /at/ the adhesion limit, but don't pass through it.

>
>
>>>It's basically the manual way of
>>>doing what ABS is doing. There's called skills. ABS was invented to
>>>protect the people who don't know that technique. As for the professor's
>>>question in an earlier post about some being able to outperform the
>>>computer, properly exacuted threshold braking can stop a car in a shorter
>>>distance than ABS.
>>>
>>>No computer system will ever be able to outperform a skilled driver. The
>>>key word being "skilled". Not everyone is. This is why ABS exist.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>because you have abs doesn't mean you can steer. all that abs
>
> achieves,
>
>>>>and my grandmother is a great example of this, is some hope of
>>>>crash-avoidance in a situation where a panicking driver locks the
>
> wheels
>
>>>>and won't release them again. /you/ seem to be overlooking the key
>>>>disclaimer of the owners manual.
>>>
>
>