Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

Hi;

I have a 91 Civic and I will soon be shopping for a more modern used
Civic or Corolla.

There are two things I don't like about my car that I am hoping to get
away in my new car.

The first is the way the drivers side front door locks. You have to
pull the handle to put the locking button down. I'm guessing this
was meant to help people to NOT lock their keys in their car, but it
has never prevented me from doing that. In fact, it is almost a
daily nuisance as a try to get out of my car and hold my bag in my
hand at the same time.

Can this be avoided with a newer Honda?

My current car does not have air conditioning. The defogging
mechanism sucks. When it is raining and chilly/humid my windshield
and other windows still fog up significantly.

Will this not be the case with a car that also has air conditioning?
Is there any way I can test defogging capabilities out while car
shopping -- without having to wait for a rainy and humid day? :)

Thanks in advance for any info

Steve

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

"steve" <tinker123@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:46085fd2-3621-495a-a025-ccd3fcc17c90@z19g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...
> Hi;
>
> I have a 91 Civic and I will soon be shopping for a more modern used
> Civic or Corolla.
>
> There are two things I don't like about my car that I am hoping to
> get
> away in my new car.
>
> The first is the way the drivers side front door locks. You have to
> pull the handle to put the locking button down. I'm guessing this
> was meant to help people to NOT lock their keys in their car, but it
> has never prevented me from doing that. In fact, it is almost a
> daily nuisance as a try to get out of my car and hold my bag in my
> hand at the same time.
>
> Can this be avoided with a newer Honda?
>
> My current car does not have air conditioning. The defogging
> mechanism sucks. When it is raining and chilly/humid my windshield
> and other windows still fog up significantly.
>
> Will this not be the case with a car that also has air conditioning?
> Is there any way I can test defogging capabilities out while car
> shopping -- without having to wait for a rainy and humid day? :)
>
> Thanks in advance for any info
>
> Steve

Most newer vehicles use remotes for keyless entry and no longer
require you to pull out the handle to lock even when in the car (power
locks). As well, with AC most will use the compressor when using the
defroster/defogger. If not, if you can manually turn on the AC while
using them it will clear up the windows much faster.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

In article
<46085fd2-3621-495a-a025-ccd3fcc17c90@z19g2000vbz.googlegroups.com>,
steve <tinker123@gmail.com> wrote:

> There are two things I don't like about my car that I am hoping to get
> away in my new car.
>
> The first is the way the drivers side front door locks. You have to
> pull the handle to put the locking button down. I'm guessing this
> was meant to help people to NOT lock their keys in their car, but it
> has never prevented me from doing that. In fact, it is almost a
> daily nuisance as a try to get out of my car and hold my bag in my
> hand at the same time.
>
> Can this be avoided with a newer Honda?

Yes.

But I had such a beast; it became, quite literally, an unconscious move.
Methinks you're resisting it way too hard, if it's not automatic by now.



> My current car does not have air conditioning. The defogging
> mechanism sucks.

pssssst--A/C *is* the defogging mechanism. The entire purpose of A/C is
to remove moisture from the air (most people think the purpose of A/C is
to cool the air, but that is not the case). Without A/C, you can't
remove moisture from the air. Hence, you don't have any sort of
defogging mechanism.

You've been operating under a misconception.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

On Jun 7, 1:21 pm, steve <tinker...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi;
>
> I have a 91 Civic and I will soon be shopping for a more modern used
> Civic or Corolla.
>
> There are two things I don't like about my car that I am hoping to get
> away in my new car.
>
> The first is the way the drivers side front door locks. You have to
> pull the handle to put the locking button down. I'm guessing this
> was meant to help people to NOT lock their keys in their car, but it
> has never prevented me from doing that. In fact, it is almost a
> daily nuisance as a try to get out of my car and hold my bag in my
> hand at the same time.

Remote control solves this regardless of how the manual mechanism
works. Most Civics and Corollas come standard with remote door lock
control.

>
> Can this be avoided with a newer Honda?
>
> My current car does not have air conditioning. The defogging
> mechanism sucks. When it is raining and chilly/humid my windshield
> and other windows still fog up significantly.
>
> Will this not be the case with a car that also has air conditioning?

Correct, A/C does the de-humidifying work.

> Is there any way I can test defogging capabilities out while car
> shopping -- without having to wait for a rainy and humid day? :)

No. Trust us, it works just fine. However, you want to buy the car
that has the best (coldest) A/C in your price range. Check the fans
(feel the breeze) for max air movement, too. In my limited exprience,
Toyota A/C is better than Honda A/C.
>
> Thanks in advance for any info
>
> Steve

Check the prices on Accords and Camrys while you're at the
dealerships. Sometimes these cars are available at prices remarkably
close to their smaller stable mates. I found the lower insurance
premium cost for the Accord more than made up for the annual fuel cost
differential.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

In article
<fcada745-ccd1-4d35-ab2f-40fc43fefd9d@k20g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
ACAR <gmwohl@gmail.com> wrote:

> In my limited exprience,
> Toyota A/C is better than Honda A/C.

In general, that is true. If you want to get the better A/C without
doing a lot of legwork, just trust Toyota.

Honda has come a long way, though. Of course, they had the longest way
to come....

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article
> <46085fd2-3621-495a-a025-ccd3fcc17c90@z19g2000vbz.googlegroups.com>,
> steve <tinker123@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> There are two things I don't like about my car that I am hoping to get
>> away in my new car.
>>
>> The first is the way the drivers side front door locks. You have to
>> pull the handle to put the locking button down. I'm guessing this
>> was meant to help people to NOT lock their keys in their car, but it
>> has never prevented me from doing that. In fact, it is almost a
>> daily nuisance as a try to get out of my car and hold my bag in my
>> hand at the same time.
>>
>> Can this be avoided with a newer Honda?
>
> Yes.
>
> But I had such a beast; it became, quite literally, an unconscious move.
> Methinks you're resisting it way too hard, if it's not automatic by now.
>
>
>
>> My current car does not have air conditioning. The defogging
>> mechanism sucks.
>
> pssssst--A/C *is* the defogging mechanism. The entire purpose of A/C is
> to remove moisture from the air (most people think the purpose of A/C is
> to cool the air, but that is not the case). Without A/C, you can't
> remove moisture from the air. Hence, you don't have any sort of
> defogging mechanism.
>
> You've been operating under a misconception.


Well, someone has, anyway. Your statement will come as something of
a surprise to those living in hot, dry climates. The *actual* purpose of
AC is hinted at by the very acronym: "Air Conditioning." It's supposed
to both cool *and* dehumidify the air, in order to keep it in bearable
"condition," temperature and humidity-wise. Not one, both. It's the cold
evaporator coils that do the dehumidifying.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

In article <LB2Xl.21037$IP7.10030@newsfe23.iad>, Leftie <No@Thanks.net>
wrote:

> > pssssst--A/C *is* the defogging mechanism. The entire purpose of A/C is
> > to remove moisture from the air (most people think the purpose of A/C is
> > to cool the air, but that is not the case). Without A/C, you can't
> > remove moisture from the air. Hence, you don't have any sort of
> > defogging mechanism.
> >
> > You've been operating under a misconception.
>
>
> Well, someone has, anyway. Your statement will come as something of
> a surprise to those living in hot, dry climates. The *actual* purpose of
> AC is hinted at by the very acronym: "Air Conditioning." It's supposed
> to both cool *and* dehumidify the air, in order to keep it in bearable
> "condition," temperature and humidity-wise. Not one, both. It's the cold
> evaporator coils that do the dehumidifying.

The *main* purpose is to remove moisture, to allow the body's own
cooling mechanism to work.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
news:elmop-AC14D6.06131608062009@mara100-84.onlink.net:

> In article <LB2Xl.21037$IP7.10030@newsfe23.iad>, Leftie
> <No@Thanks.net> wrote:
>
>> > pssssst--A/C *is* the defogging mechanism. The entire purpose of
>> > A/C is to remove moisture from the air (most people think the
>> > purpose of A/C is to cool the air, but that is not the case).
>> > Without A/C, you can't remove moisture from the air. Hence, you
>> > don't have any sort of defogging mechanism.
>> >
>> > You've been operating under a misconception.
>>
>>
>> Well, someone has, anyway. Your statement will come as something
>> of
>> a surprise to those living in hot, dry climates. The *actual* purpose
>> of AC is hinted at by the very acronym: "Air Conditioning." It's
>> supposed to both cool *and* dehumidify the air, in order to keep it
>> in bearable "condition," temperature and humidity-wise. Not one,
>> both. It's the cold evaporator coils that do the dehumidifying.
>
> The *main* purpose is to remove moisture, to allow the body's own
> cooling mechanism to work.
>

IMO,the intent of AC is to provide cool air,and the removal of moisture is
only a secondary effect of providing cool air.(IOW,I think you're wrong)

Remember that the hot interior of the car is not affected by moisture
content.Thus the need for -cool air-,to pull out that heat.

That is what makes you comfortable.(and keeps you from sweating heavily)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

Jim Yanik wrote:
>
> IMO,the intent of AC is to provide cool air,and the removal of moisture is
> only a secondary effect of providing cool air.(IOW,I think you're wrong)

The removal of humidity from the air is what causes the cooking effect.

> Remember that the hot interior of the car is not affected by moisture
> content.Thus the need for -cool air-,to pull out that heat.
>
> That is what makes you comfortable.(and keeps you from sweating heavily)

See above.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

In article <Xns9C2456ACB1ED3jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.83>,
Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:

> IMO,the intent of AC is to provide cool air,and the removal of moisture is
> only a secondary effect of providing cool air.(IOW,I think you're wrong)

Cool air in and of itself is meaningless to the human body. The body's
cooling mechanism depends on its ability to evaporate moisture--and if
you have very damp air, if the dew point is low, then the moisture your
body emits as a cooling mechanism has nowhere to go. If the moisture
can't evaporate, the body can't shed heat nearly well enough.

Certainly you've had those days where the air is quite cool, but there's
a bunch of moisture; it's quite uncomfortable, isn't it?

The point of A/C is to provide an environment where the body's
evaporative cooling mechanism can work.




> That is what makes you comfortable.(and keeps you from sweating heavily)

The cool temperature of the air is secondary to the fact that the
moisture is removed. It's the removal of moisture, and that your body's
evaporative cooling mechanism is allowed to work, that makes you
comfortable.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-417AD4.12560908062009@mara100-84.onlink.net...
> In article <Xns9C2456ACB1ED3jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.83>,
> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>
>> IMO,the intent of AC is to provide cool air,and the removal of moisture
>> is
>> only a secondary effect of providing cool air.(IOW,I think you're wrong)
>
> Cool air in and of itself is meaningless to the human body. The body's
> cooling mechanism depends on its ability to evaporate moisture--and if
> you have very damp air, if the dew point is low, then the moisture your
> body emits as a cooling mechanism has nowhere to go. If the moisture
> can't evaporate, the body can't shed heat nearly well enough.
>
> Certainly you've had those days where the air is quite cool, but there's
> a bunch of moisture; it's quite uncomfortable, isn't it?
>
> The point of A/C is to provide an environment where the body's
> evaporative cooling mechanism can work.
>
>
>
>
>> That is what makes you comfortable.(and keeps you from sweating heavily)
>
> The cool temperature of the air is secondary to the fact that the
> moisture is removed. It's the removal of moisture, and that your body's
> evaporative cooling mechanism is allowed to work, that makes you
> comfortable.

So, driving through Death Valley at noon on a July day with the windows open
to let in plenty of that dry air, we'd be cool and comfortable, correct?

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

On Jun 7, 12:21 pm, steve <tinker...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi;
>
> I have a 91 Civic and I will soon be shopping for a more modern used
> Civic or Corolla.
>
> There are two things I don't like about my car that I am hoping to get
> away in my new car.
>
> The first is the way the drivers side front door locks. You have to
> pull the handle to put the locking button down. I'm guessing this
> was meant to help people to NOT lock their keys in their car, but it
> has never prevented me from doing that. In fact, it is almost a
> daily nuisance as a try to get out of my car and hold my bag in my
> hand at the same time.
>
> Can this be avoided with a newer Honda?
>
> My current car does not have air conditioning. The defogging
> mechanism sucks. When it is raining and chilly/humid my windshield
> and other windows still fog up significantly.
>
> Will this not be the case with a car that also has air conditioning?
> Is there any way I can test defogging capabilities out while car
> shopping -- without having to wait for a rainy and humid day? :)
>
> Thanks in advance for any info
>
> Steve

After 1998 the hold-the-driver's-lever-out-to-lock-the-door was gone.
If you have power locks you can't lock the doors if the key is in the
ignition. You can lock all doors when you push down the manual lock
near the driver's door window.

The defroster works best with the Non-Recirculating mode of the AC.

sarita

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
news:elmop-417AD4.12560908062009@mara100-84.onlink.net:

> In article <Xns9C2456ACB1ED3jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.83>,
> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>
>> IMO,the intent of AC is to provide cool air,and the removal of
>> moisture is only a secondary effect of providing cool air.(IOW,I
>> think you're wrong)
>
> Cool air in and of itself is meaningless to the human body.

wrong. ambient temperature DOES matter to the body.
THAT is what makes one sweat,not how much humidity is present.

> The
> body's cooling mechanism depends on its ability to evaporate
> moisture--and if you have very damp air, if the dew point is low, then
> the moisture your body emits as a cooling mechanism has nowhere to go.
> If the moisture can't evaporate, the body can't shed heat nearly well
> enough.
>
> Certainly you've had those days where the air is quite cool, but
> there's a bunch of moisture; it's quite uncomfortable, isn't it?

not as uncomfortable as a hot interior of a auto,at 100-140 degF or even
more,despite how dry it might be.
>
> The point of A/C is to provide an environment where the body's
> evaporative cooling mechanism can work.
>
>
>
>
>> That is what makes you comfortable.(and keeps you from sweating
>> heavily)
>
> The cool temperature of the air is secondary to the fact that the
> moisture is removed. It's the removal of moisture, and that your
> body's evaporative cooling mechanism is allowed to work, that makes
> you comfortable.
>

wrong.
the purpose of auto AC is to remove heat from the interior of the auto.
moisture content doesn't matter in that respect.

the heat is what makes a person perspire. not the humidity.
if the air temp inside is 110 degF,it doesn't matter to the human body if
the humidity is only 10%.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
news:elmop-417AD4.12560908062009@mara100-84.onlink.net:

> In article <Xns9C2456ACB1ED3jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.83>,
> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>
>> IMO,the intent of AC is to provide cool air,and the removal of
>> moisture is only a secondary effect of providing cool air.(IOW,I
>> think you're wrong)
>
> Cool air in and of itself is meaningless to the human body. The
> body's cooling mechanism depends on its ability to evaporate
> moisture--and if you have very damp air, if the dew point is low, then
> the moisture your body emits as a cooling mechanism has nowhere to go.
> If the moisture can't evaporate, the body can't shed heat nearly well
> enough.

BTW,the air conditioning system is a HEAT transfer device;
it works by moving -heat- from one area to another.

moisture removal is secondary,a side benefit.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

In article <Xns9C24B84723805jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.86>,
Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:

> BTW,the air conditioning system is a HEAT transfer device;
> it works by moving -heat- from one area to another.
>
> moisture removal is secondary,a side benefit.

No, moisture removal--necessary for the body's evaporative cooling
mechanism to work--is the primary goal.

To remove moisture, one uses the concept of condensation--which requires
a cool surface to move the moist air over.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

In article <B9dXl.31747$YU2.31210@nlpi066.nbdc.sbc.com>,
"Paul" <pkmueller@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> > The cool temperature of the air is secondary to the fact that the
> > moisture is removed. It's the removal of moisture, and that your body's
> > evaporative cooling mechanism is allowed to work, that makes you
> > comfortable.
>
> So, driving through Death Valley at noon on a July day with the windows open
> to let in plenty of that dry air, we'd be cool and comfortable, correct?

Cooler than with the windows closed, yes.

Of *course* cool air is part of the equation--but it's not the primary
part.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <Xns9C24B84723805jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.86>,
> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>
>> BTW,the air conditioning system is a HEAT transfer device;
>> it works by moving -heat- from one area to another.
>>
>> moisture removal is secondary,a side benefit.
>
> No, moisture removal--necessary for the body's evaporative cooling
> mechanism to work--is the primary goal.
>
> To remove moisture, one uses the concept of condensation--which requires
> a cool surface to move the moist air over.


sorry dude, it's the other way around. you can dry air without cooling
it. you can't cool it without condensation. moisture removal is simply
an artifact of cooling. thermodynamics.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

On 2009-06-08, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
> news:elmop-417AD4.12560908062009@mara100-84.onlink.net:
>
>> In article <Xns9C2456ACB1ED3jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.83>,
>> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>>
>>> IMO,the intent of AC is to provide cool air,and the removal of
>>> moisture is only a secondary effect of providing cool air.(IOW,I
>>> think you're wrong)
>>
>> Cool air in and of itself is meaningless to the human body.
>
> wrong. ambient temperature DOES matter to the body.
> THAT is what makes one sweat,not how much humidity is present.
>
>> The
>> body's cooling mechanism depends on its ability to evaporate
>> moisture--and if you have very damp air, if the dew point is low, then
>> the moisture your body emits as a cooling mechanism has nowhere to go.
>> If the moisture can't evaporate, the body can't shed heat nearly well
>> enough.
>>
>> Certainly you've had those days where the air is quite cool, but
>> there's a bunch of moisture; it's quite uncomfortable, isn't it?
>
> not as uncomfortable as a hot interior of a auto,at 100-140 degF or even
> more,despite how dry it might be.
>>
>> The point of A/C is to provide an environment where the body's
>> evaporative cooling mechanism can work.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> That is what makes you comfortable.(and keeps you from sweating
>>> heavily)
>>
>> The cool temperature of the air is secondary to the fact that the
>> moisture is removed. It's the removal of moisture, and that your
>> body's evaporative cooling mechanism is allowed to work, that makes
>> you comfortable.
>>
>
> wrong.
> the purpose of auto AC is to remove heat from the interior of the auto.
> moisture content doesn't matter in that respect.
>
> the heat is what makes a person perspire. not the humidity.
> if the air temp inside is 110 degF,it doesn't matter to the human body if
> the humidity is only 10%.
>

Both are somewhat true, though the temp is a bit more important, IMO.

If the humidity is high, when you sweat, it does not evaporate, and
therefore does nothing to lower your body temp. That is why it seems
more uncomfortable to be in Southern Florida at 100 F than in Arizona
at the same temp. BUT, so long as the temp is 100 F, you're going to
be hot, and no amount of de-humidifying is going to change that.
And in a car, the temp will be even higher.

Therefore, you need cool air to reduce the temp, and some measure of
de-humidification, especially in very humid climates, to help your
body cool itself.

Also, the warmer air is, the higher a percentage of absolute humidity
it can hold. 70 degree air simply holds less moisture than 100 degree
air does. If you can lower the temp on the inside of the vehicle, it
will be less humid by definition...


--
Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
joe at hits - buffalo dot com
"Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
time..." - Danny, American History X

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

In article <seidneyJ0MWjVLDXnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@speakeasy.net> ,
jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote:

> you can dry air without cooling
> it.

how?

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
D1C527.07554009062009@mara100-84.onlink.net:

> In article <seidneyJ0MWjVLDXnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@speakeasy.net> ,
> jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> you can dry air without cooling
>> it.
>
> how?
>

stuff that absorbs moisture;hygroscopic materials. like silica gel.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
9328E6.19311508062009@mara100-84.onlink.net:

> In article <Xns9C24B84723805jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.86>,
> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>
>> BTW,the air conditioning system is a HEAT transfer device;
>> it works by moving -heat- from one area to another.
>>
>> moisture removal is secondary,a side benefit.
>
> No, moisture removal--necessary for the body's evaporative cooling
> mechanism to work--is the primary goal.

except the other guy's mention of Death Valley being very dry and very hot
shows you're wrong.

Auto AC is for removal of heat from the interior,moisture removal
is secondary.

>
> To remove moisture, one uses the concept of condensation--which requires
> a cool surface to move the moist air over.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
news:elmop-BBD1F9.19320808062009@mara100-84.onlink.net:

> In article <B9dXl.31747$YU2.31210@nlpi066.nbdc.sbc.com>,
> "Paul" <pkmueller@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> > The cool temperature of the air is secondary to the fact that the
>> > moisture is removed. It's the removal of moisture, and that your
>> > body's evaporative cooling mechanism is allowed to work, that makes
>> > you comfortable.
>>
>> So, driving through Death Valley at noon on a July day with the
>> windows open to let in plenty of that dry air, we'd be cool and
>> comfortable, correct?
>
> Cooler than with the windows closed, yes.

but not comfortable. and not much cooler.

sweating heavily in the 100plus -dry- desert heat still does not make a
person comfortable. But the cool air of AC removes that heat and allows
comfort.
>
> Of *course* cool air is part of the equation--but it's not the primary
> part.
>

Yes,it is.
AC is primarily a HEAT transfer device.
It's not specifically designed to remove humidity,but to remove HEAT.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

In article <Xns9C2553BBF10A4jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.83>,
Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:

> > Of *course* cool air is part of the equation--but it's not the primary
> > part.
> >
>
> Yes,it is.

OK, fine. Consider this the next time it's a nice, cool, 63 degrees
outside--and 100% relative humidity.

And ask yourself why the hell you are dying to turn on the A/C.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

In article <Xns9C2552892B5A0jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.83>,
Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:

> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
> D1C527.07554009062009@mara100-84.onlink.net:
>
> > In article <seidneyJ0MWjVLDXnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@speakeasy.net> ,
> > jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote:
> >
> >> you can dry air without cooling
> >> it.
> >
> > how?
> >
>
> stuff that absorbs moisture;hygroscopic materials. like silica gel.

so.....you have an air conditioner in your car and/or home that's full
of hygroscopic materials?

My question to jim was, in the context of this conversation, how are you
removing moisture without condensing it onto a cooler surface?

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <Xns9C2552892B5A0jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.83>,
> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>
>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
>> D1C527.07554009062009@mara100-84.onlink.net:
>>
>>> In article <seidneyJ0MWjVLDXnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@speakeasy.net> ,
>>> jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> you can dry air without cooling
>>>> it.
>>> how?
>>>
>> stuff that absorbs moisture;hygroscopic materials. like silica gel.
>
> so.....you have an air conditioner in your car and/or home that's full
> of hygroscopic materials?
>
> My question to jim was, in the context of this conversation, how are you
> removing moisture without condensing it onto a cooler surface?

you could do it with pressure changes - moisture condensation is always
a problem in paint shops and there's no significant temp change in air
lines there - unlike a/c systems.

i appreciate that you think dehumidification is a great thing, and maybe
it is a side-benefit of having a/c, but the objective of the equipment
is not to simply dehumidify. if it were, it wouldn't go to the trouble
and expense of venting waste heat to the outside of the vehicle, it
would be used to re-heat the dehumidified air inside the car and thus
save on componentry and energy.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <seidneyJ0MWjVLDXnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@speakeasy.net> ,
> jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> you can dry air without cooling
>> it.
>
> how?


Seriously? Ok. By *heating it*.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
1B71E5.20484809062009@mara100-84.onlink.net:

> In article <Xns9C2553BBF10A4jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.83>,
> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>
>> > Of *course* cool air is part of the equation--but it's not the primary
>> > part.
>> >
>>
>> Yes,it is.
>
> OK, fine. Consider this the next time it's a nice, cool, 63 degrees
> outside--and 100% relative humidity.


Consider Death Valley;100 plus heat and DRY air.
Yet you still need to remove the HEAT from your auto to be
comfortable,rather than just use the fan to pull in dry outside air that's
around 120 degF.
To repeat,AC is a HEAT transfer device,and you have to remove the
interior heat to be comfortable.

>
> And ask yourself why the hell you are dying to turn on the A/C.
>

few people use their auto AC in such temps.
such a use is SECONDARY to the primary purpose of -removing HEAT- from an
auto interior.


I live in central FLORIDA,and I know all about humidity,and about hot cars.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

In article <fLFXl.33375$VL5.15396@newsfe22.iad>, Leftie <No@Thanks.net>
wrote:

> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> > In article <seidneyJ0MWjVLDXnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@speakeasy.net> ,
> > jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote:
> >
> >> you can dry air without cooling
> >> it.
> >
> > how?
>
>
> Seriously? Ok. By *heating it*.

In the context of this conversation? Seriously?

But I thought you wanted COOL air.

And you don't remove moisture by heating. You change the dew point, but
you don't remove moisture.

Condensation removes moisture.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

Jim Yanik wrote:
>
> few people use their auto AC in such temps.

"Few People" Man you need to get out more. Using the A/C in the winter
months when there is snow and ice clears the windows of condensation so
quickly.

> such a use is SECONDARY to the primary purpose of -removing HEAT- from an
> auto interior.

Removing the humidity is part of removing the heat from a vehicle or
building.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

Brian Smith wrote:
> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>
>> few people use their auto AC in such temps.
>
> "Few People" Man you need to get out more. Using the A/C in the
> winter months when there is snow and ice clears the windows of
> condensation so quickly.
>
>> such a use is SECONDARY to the primary purpose of -removing HEAT- from
>> an auto interior.
>
> Removing the humidity is part of removing the heat from a vehicle
> or building.
>

technically, it's not. if you simply want to dehumidify, you don't
bother pumping the heat outside.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <fLFXl.33375$VL5.15396@newsfe22.iad>, Leftie <No@Thanks.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>> In article <seidneyJ0MWjVLDXnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@speakeasy.net> ,
>>> jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> you can dry air without cooling
>>>> it.
>>> how?
>>
>> Seriously? Ok. By *heating it*.
>
> In the context of this conversation? Seriously?

no, he's confused.


>
> But I thought you wanted COOL air.
>
> And you don't remove moisture by heating. You change the dew point, but
> you don't remove moisture.

correct. but it's also correct that hotter air can hold more moisture.
that doesn't make it "dry", but the proportion relative to saturation
decreases.


>
> Condensation removes moisture.

correct.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

jim beam wrote:
>
> technically, it's not. if you simply want to dehumidify, you don't
> bother pumping the heat outside.

It's a lot better than just relying on a dehumidifier to remove
moisture from a building. The heat that the dehumidifier generates while
removing the moisture builds up rapidly. Better to vent the heat outside
too.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
news:MPadnT8K8rhgN7LXnZ2dnUVZ_gti4p2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> Brian Smith wrote:
>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>
>>> few people use their auto AC in such temps.
>>
>> "Few People" Man you need to get out more. Using the A/C in the
>> winter months when there is snow and ice clears the windows of
>> condensation so quickly.

auto operators manuals all tell owners to use the AC periodically in winter
months so it gets lubricated and doesn't rust up.If they have to tell
owners that,then frequent use in winter is not common.

It used to be that most cars sold up North didn't have AC,unless ordered as
an option.(and they were hard to sell down south without AC)
Since foreign carmakers began bundling it as standard,that's changed,I
believe.
BTW,I grew up in Buffalo and lived in the North for many years.

>>
>>> such a use is SECONDARY to the primary purpose of -removing HEAT- from
>>> an auto interior.
>>
>> Removing the humidity is part of removing the heat from a vehicle
>> or building.

a -secondary- part.Not the primary purpose of auto AC.
>>
>
> technically, it's not. if you simply want to dehumidify, you don't
> bother pumping the heat outside.
>

note there is a temperature control on every auto AC,but no humidity
control.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <fLFXl.33375$VL5.15396@newsfe22.iad>, Leftie <No@Thanks.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>> In article <seidneyJ0MWjVLDXnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@speakeasy.net> ,
>>> jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> you can dry air without cooling
>>>> it.
>>> how?
>>
>> Seriously? Ok. By *heating it*.
>
> In the context of this conversation? Seriously?
>
> But I thought you wanted COOL air.


You didn't ask "in the context of this conversation." Stop digging
that hole and give up, man.


(...)

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

In article <pn%Xl.33520$VL5.30984@newsfe22.iad>, Leftie <No@Thanks.net>
wrote:

> > In the context of this conversation? Seriously?
> >
> > But I thought you wanted COOL air.
>
>
> You didn't ask "in the context of this conversation." Stop digging
> that hole and give up, man.

You're stretching. YOU knew what the context was, and chose to ignore
it for your own purposes.

"Conversational implicature"--first look up what the words mean, then
look up what the phrase means.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

Thus spake Brian Smith <Halifax@NovaScotia.Canada> :

>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>
>> IMO,the intent of AC is to provide cool air,and the removal of moisture is
>> only a secondary effect of providing cool air.(IOW,I think you're wrong)
>
> The removal of humidity from the air is what causes the cooking effect.
>

Incorrect. Expansion of compressed gases is what causes the cooling
effect. The removal of moisture is a side effect.

One can dehumidfy one's car without cooling it. I frequently have the
compressor on during the winter to dry out the air, even though I'm
also running the heater.

>> Remember that the hot interior of the car is not affected by moisture
>> content.Thus the need for -cool air-,to pull out that heat.
>>
>> That is what makes you comfortable.(and keeps you from sweating heavily)
>
> See above.

Says someone in Nova Scotia.

--

- dillon I am not invalid

"Gee, Jimmy,I'm sorry to hear that your girlfriend
turned out to be a Cylon."
-Special Agent Tim McGee, "NCIS"

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

Dillon Pyron wrote:
> Thus spake Brian Smith <Halifax@NovaScotia.Canada> :
>
>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>> IMO,the intent of AC is to provide cool air,and the removal of moisture is
>>> only a secondary effect of providing cool air.(IOW,I think you're wrong)
>> The removal of humidity from the air is what causes the cooking effect.
>>
>
> Incorrect. Expansion of compressed gases is what causes the cooling
> effect.

while that effect exists, it's small beer compared to the real heat
exchange mechanism - that of changing phase from liquid to gas. it's
liquid /evaporation/ that causes the cooling effect.


> The removal of moisture is a side effect.
>
> One can dehumidfy one's car without cooling it. I frequently have the
> compressor on during the winter to dry out the air, even though I'm
> also running the heater.
>
>>> Remember that the hot interior of the car is not affected by moisture
>>> content.Thus the need for -cool air-,to pull out that heat.
>>>
>>> That is what makes you comfortable.(and keeps you from sweating heavily)
>> See above.
>
> Says someone in Nova Scotia.
>

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
news:TOadnWsukam6dazXnZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> Dillon Pyron wrote:
>> Thus spake Brian Smith <Halifax@NovaScotia.Canada> :
>>
>>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>> IMO,the intent of AC is to provide cool air,and the removal of
>>>> moisture is only a secondary effect of providing cool air.(IOW,I
>>>> think you're wrong)
>>> The removal of humidity from the air is what causes the cooling
>>> effect.
>>>
>>
>> Incorrect. Expansion of compressed gases is what causes the cooling
>> effect.

Not for the human body.
you can fart all you want and it's not going to cool you one bit. ;-)
>
> while that effect exists, it's small beer compared to the real heat
> exchange mechanism - that of changing phase from liquid to gas. it's
> liquid /evaporation/ that causes the cooling effect.
>
>
>> The removal of moisture is a side effect.
>>
>> One can dehumidfy one's car without cooling it. I frequently have
>> the compressor on during the winter to dry out the air, even though
>> I'm also running the heater.
>>
>>>> Remember that the hot interior of the car is not affected by
>>>> moisture content.Thus the need for -cool air-,to pull out that
>>>> heat.
>>>>
>>>> That is what makes you comfortable.(and keeps you from sweating
>>>> heavily)
>>> See above.
>>
>> Says someone in Nova Scotia.
>>
>

AIUI,Elmo was claiming that a -person- is cooled more by the lowering of
humidity than by the cool air itself.He said the -primary reason- for auto
AC is to lower interior humidity,that the cold air is just a means of doing
that.
Of course,the example of dry hot desert air disproves that.
The body also radiates away heat by other means than perspiration,and if
the body is not absorbing heat from the environment(being cooled by cold
air),it can radiate more heat away.(by all means)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
> news:TOadnWsukam6dazXnZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>
>> Dillon Pyron wrote:
>>> Thus spake Brian Smith <Halifax@NovaScotia.Canada> :
>>>
>>>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>> IMO,the intent of AC is to provide cool air,and the removal of
>>>>> moisture is only a secondary effect of providing cool air.(IOW,I
>>>>> think you're wrong)
>>>> The removal of humidity from the air is what causes the cooling
>>>> effect.
>>>>
>>> Incorrect. Expansion of compressed gases is what causes the cooling
>>> effect.
>
> Not for the human body.
> you can fart all you want and it's not going to cool you one bit. ;-)
>> while that effect exists, it's small beer compared to the real heat
>> exchange mechanism - that of changing phase from liquid to gas. it's
>> liquid /evaporation/ that causes the cooling effect.
>>
>>
>>> The removal of moisture is a side effect.
>>>
>>> One can dehumidfy one's car without cooling it. I frequently have
>>> the compressor on during the winter to dry out the air, even though
>>> I'm also running the heater.
>>>
>>>>> Remember that the hot interior of the car is not affected by
>>>>> moisture content.Thus the need for -cool air-,to pull out that
>>>>> heat.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is what makes you comfortable.(and keeps you from sweating
>>>>> heavily)
>>>> See above.
>>> Says someone in Nova Scotia.
>>>
>
> AIUI,Elmo was claiming that a -person- is cooled more by the lowering of
> humidity than by the cool air itself.He said the -primary reason- for auto
> AC is to lower interior humidity,that the cold air is just a means of doing
> that.
> Of course,the example of dry hot desert air disproves that.
> The body also radiates away heat by other means than perspiration,and if
> the body is not absorbing heat from the environment(being cooled by cold
> air),it can radiate more heat away.(by all means)
>

radiation is not our primary means of heat dispersal. especially not at
ambient above 98.4F. the phase change of water evaporation otoh, that
of sweating, dumps heat spectacularly well.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

In article <Xns9C285B699B399jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.83>,
Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:

> AIUI,Elmo was claiming that a -person- is cooled more by the lowering of
> humidity than by the cool air itself.He said the -primary reason- for auto
> AC is to lower interior humidity,that the cold air is just a means of doing
> that.
> Of course,the example of dry hot desert air disproves that.

just like the example of 63 degree incredibly moist air proves it.