Gordon McGrew

On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 14:48:06 -0000, rgentle
<gentleenterprize@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Jun 7, 8:29 pm, Jim Higgins <gordian...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Huck Flynn wrote:
>> >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...07/06/06/AR200...
>>
>> The trick for Ford will be maintaining the quality. Can they do it or
>> is it a flash in the pan? Quality has been the norm, rather than the
>> exception as it has been with the Little Three, for Toyota and Honda.
>
>I have had a Toyota & a Honda and hated them! No room or really good
>gas mileage. I own a Ford & a Camero

I hear that Cameros have lots of luggage room and great gas mileage.
Camaros OTOH are pieces of .

Gordon McGrew

On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 14:48:06 -0000, rgentle
<gentleenterprize@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Jun 7, 8:29 pm, Jim Higgins <gordian...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Huck Flynn wrote:
>> >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...07/06/06/AR200...
>>
>> The trick for Ford will be maintaining the quality. Can they do it or
>> is it a flash in the pan? Quality has been the norm, rather than the
>> exception as it has been with the Little Three, for Toyota and Honda.
>
>I have had a Toyota & a Honda and hated them! No room or really good
>gas mileage. I own a Ford & a Camero

I hear that Cameros have lots of luggage room and great gas mileage.
Camaros OTOH are pieces of .

razz

"Jim Higgins" <gordian238@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:136h8mn73ovif59@corp.supernews.com...
> Huck Flynn wrote:
> >
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...060601431.html
> >
> >
> >
>
> The trick for Ford will be maintaining the quality. Can they do it or
> is it a flash in the pan? Quality has been the norm, rather than the
> exception as it has been with the Little Three, for Toyota and Honda.
As a former toy mech, I can assure you that toy are exactly that....toys.
They definitely are no better than anyone else.

razz

"Jim Higgins" <gordian238@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:136h8mn73ovif59@corp.supernews.com...
> Huck Flynn wrote:
> >
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...060601431.html
> >
> >
> >
>
> The trick for Ford will be maintaining the quality. Can they do it or
> is it a flash in the pan? Quality has been the norm, rather than the
> exception as it has been with the Little Three, for Toyota and Honda.
As a former toy mech, I can assure you that toy are exactly that....toys.
They definitely are no better than anyone else.

Jim Higgins

razz wrote:
> "Jim Higgins" <gordian238@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:136h8mn73ovif59@corp.supernews.com...
>> Huck Flynn wrote:
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...060601431.html
>>>
>>>
>> The trick for Ford will be maintaining the quality. Can they do it or
>> is it a flash in the pan? Quality has been the norm, rather than the
>> exception as it has been with the Little Three, for Toyota and Honda.
> As a former toy mech, I can assure you that toy are exactly that....toys.
> They definitely are no better than anyone else.
>
>
The people that plunk down cold, hard cash for Toyota and Honda products
have decided that they *are* worth it. The Little Three are losing the
race, if they have not already hit the point of no return. The contract
talks, assuming that the UAW has an attack of sanity and goes with deep
concessions to the Little Three, might have a chance. Maybe.

Jim Higgins

razz wrote:
> "Jim Higgins" <gordian238@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:136h8mn73ovif59@corp.supernews.com...
>> Huck Flynn wrote:
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...060601431.html
>>>
>>>
>> The trick for Ford will be maintaining the quality. Can they do it or
>> is it a flash in the pan? Quality has been the norm, rather than the
>> exception as it has been with the Little Three, for Toyota and Honda.
> As a former toy mech, I can assure you that toy are exactly that....toys.
> They definitely are no better than anyone else.
>
>
The people that plunk down cold, hard cash for Toyota and Honda products
have decided that they *are* worth it. The Little Three are losing the
race, if they have not already hit the point of no return. The contract
talks, assuming that the UAW has an attack of sanity and goes with deep
concessions to the Little Three, might have a chance. Maybe.

Wickeddoll

"Jim Higgins" ...
> razz wrote:
>>> Huck Flynn wrote:
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...060601431.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>> The trick for Ford will be maintaining the quality. Can they do it or
>>> is it a flash in the pan? Quality has been the norm, rather than the
>>> exception as it has been with the Little Three, for Toyota and Honda.
>> As a former toy mech, I can assure you that toy are exactly that....toys.
>> They definitely are no better than anyone else.
>>
>>
> The people that plunk down cold, hard cash for Toyota and Honda products
> have decided that they *are* worth it. The Little Three are losing the
> race, if they have not already hit the point of no return. The contract
> talks, assuming that the UAW has an attack of sanity and goes with deep
> concessions to the Little Three, might have a chance. Maybe.

I'm hoping they rebound, despite having bought Toyotas for the last 20 or so
years. I'm all for domestic automakers getting back on their feet; I'd love
to keep the profits here. I think they're on the right track, but hope it's
not too late to rebuild the trust.

And, as I've said all along, if I were in the market for a large vehicle,
I'd go domestic. The Japanese haven't quite got the hang of it, yet, and
even if they ever do, I don't think they'll ever do it as well as the US.

Natalie, American Air Force veteran

Wickeddoll

"Jim Higgins" ...
> razz wrote:
>>> Huck Flynn wrote:
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...060601431.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>> The trick for Ford will be maintaining the quality. Can they do it or
>>> is it a flash in the pan? Quality has been the norm, rather than the
>>> exception as it has been with the Little Three, for Toyota and Honda.
>> As a former toy mech, I can assure you that toy are exactly that....toys.
>> They definitely are no better than anyone else.
>>
>>
> The people that plunk down cold, hard cash for Toyota and Honda products
> have decided that they *are* worth it. The Little Three are losing the
> race, if they have not already hit the point of no return. The contract
> talks, assuming that the UAW has an attack of sanity and goes with deep
> concessions to the Little Three, might have a chance. Maybe.

I'm hoping they rebound, despite having bought Toyotas for the last 20 or so
years. I'm all for domestic automakers getting back on their feet; I'd love
to keep the profits here. I think they're on the right track, but hope it's
not too late to rebuild the trust.

And, as I've said all along, if I were in the market for a large vehicle,
I'd go domestic. The Japanese haven't quite got the hang of it, yet, and
even if they ever do, I don't think they'll ever do it as well as the US.

Natalie, American Air Force veteran

Double Tap

"Gordon McGrew" <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:t4gl639cl2vqm9o0v4lnlaq303qm11g9j6@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 22:13:36 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Gordon McGrew wrote:
>>> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 13:33:25 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> still me wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 20:18:43 -0700, Kruse <kruse@kansas.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The real irony is that these cars were identical in about every way
>>>>>> and even produced in the same factory and they were probably made one
>>>>>> car in front of each other. The only difference between the two were
>>>>>> the make/model badges on the dash and on the bumper. THAT'S what
>>>>>> Iacoca was peeved about, the perception of difference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Once again, is there a difference? Probably.
>>>>>> There certainly is in people's minds.
>>>>> First, JD Powers ia a highly biased source and their survey's are
>>>>> rarely (never?) statistically valid. This one is no exception.
>>>> In your opinion. Can you back this opinion with evidence?
>>>
>>> IMO, it isn't that JPD IQS isn't statistically valid - I assume it is,
>>> but I don't know. The problem is that it is a joke. It is deceptive
>>> and misleading and the results don't seem to agree with more objective
>>> sources (i.e. ones who don't sell their results for commercial
>>> purposes.)
>>>
>>> Just for fun, look at the JDP 2007 IQS site:
>>>
>>> http://www.jdpower.com/autos/quality-ratings/
>>>
>>> Inexplicably, Toyota is rated *higher* in Overall Quality. Contrary
>>> to the subject line, Toyota beat Ford in Overall Quality, in Overall
>>> Mechanical Quality and tied in Overall Design Quality.
>>
>>That's not inexplicable. It is easy to understand. JDP IQS is a rating
>>of the number of problems people found in the first 90 days of
>>ownership. I would think that Overall Mechanical qualtiy and design
>>quality took into account other things than what people reported in the
>>1st 90 days.
>
> Nope. All of these ratings are from the 2007 JDP IQS. Follow the
> link and see.
>
>>> Note that there are six individual ratings areas, 3 mechanical and 3
>>> design. Toyota outscored Ford in two of three mechanical quality
>>> areas and tied in the third. Toyota and Ford each won one of the
>>> design areas and one was tied. What was the only area where Ford beat
>>> Toyota? Features & Accessories Quality - Design. What is that, you
>>> ask? According to JDP, "this score is based on problems with the
>>> seats, stereo/navigation system, heater, air conditioner, and
>>> sunroof." Sounds like a genuine measure of mechanical problems until
>>> you read the general description of what they mean by a design
>>> problem: "this score is based on problems where controls or features
>>> may work as designed, but are difficult to use or understand (i.e.,
>>> overly complicated controls/features that are difficult to operate due
>>> to poor location)."
>>>
>>> So, a car which has no mechanical defects at all could get beaten by a
>>> less reliable car if the reliable car has a confusing stereo, an ugly
>>> tail and the doors don't make a pleasing sound when slammed. That is
>>> the problem with the JDP IQS. Of course, if its real purpose is to
>>> sell advertising, their system gives them the maximum number of awards
>>> to hand out.
>>
>>Who are their costumers? The auto industry.
>
> Exactly. The secret of how Ford "beat Toyota" is in the number of top
> rated models - Ford had more than Toyota. But the real secret is that
> half of the rating has nothing to do with quality as most readers
> would define it in this context. It includes styling and other
> subjective appraisals and weights them evenly with such questions as,
> "Did the transmission fail?"
>
> So why is the headline "Ford has more top models than Toyota" instead
> of "Toyota has higher overall quality than Ford?" It comes back to
> JDP's business; selling endorsements to advertisers. "Toyota beats
> Ford" is like "dog bites man." Toyota isn't going to pay money for a
> JDP badge that says what everyone already knows and assumes. Ford, on
> the other hand has a major credibility problem at this point and will
> gladly pay for an endorsement from an independent, well-known survey
> organization.

As faulty as the Consumer Union survey is I as far as I am concerned it has
much more realistic
relevance to the real world then the JDP initial quality survey.
Double Tap

Double Tap

"Gordon McGrew" <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:t4gl639cl2vqm9o0v4lnlaq303qm11g9j6@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 22:13:36 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Gordon McGrew wrote:
>>> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 13:33:25 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> still me wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 20:18:43 -0700, Kruse <kruse@kansas.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The real irony is that these cars were identical in about every way
>>>>>> and even produced in the same factory and they were probably made one
>>>>>> car in front of each other. The only difference between the two were
>>>>>> the make/model badges on the dash and on the bumper. THAT'S what
>>>>>> Iacoca was peeved about, the perception of difference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Once again, is there a difference? Probably.
>>>>>> There certainly is in people's minds.
>>>>> First, JD Powers ia a highly biased source and their survey's are
>>>>> rarely (never?) statistically valid. This one is no exception.
>>>> In your opinion. Can you back this opinion with evidence?
>>>
>>> IMO, it isn't that JPD IQS isn't statistically valid - I assume it is,
>>> but I don't know. The problem is that it is a joke. It is deceptive
>>> and misleading and the results don't seem to agree with more objective
>>> sources (i.e. ones who don't sell their results for commercial
>>> purposes.)
>>>
>>> Just for fun, look at the JDP 2007 IQS site:
>>>
>>> http://www.jdpower.com/autos/quality-ratings/
>>>
>>> Inexplicably, Toyota is rated *higher* in Overall Quality. Contrary
>>> to the subject line, Toyota beat Ford in Overall Quality, in Overall
>>> Mechanical Quality and tied in Overall Design Quality.
>>
>>That's not inexplicable. It is easy to understand. JDP IQS is a rating
>>of the number of problems people found in the first 90 days of
>>ownership. I would think that Overall Mechanical qualtiy and design
>>quality took into account other things than what people reported in the
>>1st 90 days.
>
> Nope. All of these ratings are from the 2007 JDP IQS. Follow the
> link and see.
>
>>> Note that there are six individual ratings areas, 3 mechanical and 3
>>> design. Toyota outscored Ford in two of three mechanical quality
>>> areas and tied in the third. Toyota and Ford each won one of the
>>> design areas and one was tied. What was the only area where Ford beat
>>> Toyota? Features & Accessories Quality - Design. What is that, you
>>> ask? According to JDP, "this score is based on problems with the
>>> seats, stereo/navigation system, heater, air conditioner, and
>>> sunroof." Sounds like a genuine measure of mechanical problems until
>>> you read the general description of what they mean by a design
>>> problem: "this score is based on problems where controls or features
>>> may work as designed, but are difficult to use or understand (i.e.,
>>> overly complicated controls/features that are difficult to operate due
>>> to poor location)."
>>>
>>> So, a car which has no mechanical defects at all could get beaten by a
>>> less reliable car if the reliable car has a confusing stereo, an ugly
>>> tail and the doors don't make a pleasing sound when slammed. That is
>>> the problem with the JDP IQS. Of course, if its real purpose is to
>>> sell advertising, their system gives them the maximum number of awards
>>> to hand out.
>>
>>Who are their costumers? The auto industry.
>
> Exactly. The secret of how Ford "beat Toyota" is in the number of top
> rated models - Ford had more than Toyota. But the real secret is that
> half of the rating has nothing to do with quality as most readers
> would define it in this context. It includes styling and other
> subjective appraisals and weights them evenly with such questions as,
> "Did the transmission fail?"
>
> So why is the headline "Ford has more top models than Toyota" instead
> of "Toyota has higher overall quality than Ford?" It comes back to
> JDP's business; selling endorsements to advertisers. "Toyota beats
> Ford" is like "dog bites man." Toyota isn't going to pay money for a
> JDP badge that says what everyone already knows and assumes. Ford, on
> the other hand has a major credibility problem at this point and will
> gladly pay for an endorsement from an independent, well-known survey
> organization.

As faulty as the Consumer Union survey is I as far as I am concerned it has
much more realistic
relevance to the real world then the JDP initial quality survey.
Double Tap

Gordon McGrew

On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 15:30:26 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Gordon McGrew wrote:
><...>
>
>> So why is the headline "Ford has more top models than Toyota" instead
>> of "Toyota has higher overall quality than Ford?" It comes back to
>> JDP's business; selling endorsements to advertisers. "Toyota beats
>> Ford" is like "dog bites man." Toyota isn't going to pay money for a
>> JDP badge that says what everyone already knows and assumes. Ford, on
>> the other hand has a major credibility problem at this point and will
>> gladly pay for an endorsement from an independent, well-known survey
>> organization.
>
>The headlines are written by newspapers, not by JD Powers. The headlines
>could have just as easily been "Toyota takes half the truck and SUV
>initial quality awards."
>
>Jeff

Actually, JDP does write a headline. In this case it was:

J.D. Power and Associates Reports:
Ford Motor Company Captures Most Awards in 2007 Initial Quality Study

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/new...spx?ID=2007088

You might be surprised by the amount of "news" which is really just
corporate press releases.

Gordon McGrew

On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 15:30:26 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Gordon McGrew wrote:
><...>
>
>> So why is the headline "Ford has more top models than Toyota" instead
>> of "Toyota has higher overall quality than Ford?" It comes back to
>> JDP's business; selling endorsements to advertisers. "Toyota beats
>> Ford" is like "dog bites man." Toyota isn't going to pay money for a
>> JDP badge that says what everyone already knows and assumes. Ford, on
>> the other hand has a major credibility problem at this point and will
>> gladly pay for an endorsement from an independent, well-known survey
>> organization.
>
>The headlines are written by newspapers, not by JD Powers. The headlines
>could have just as easily been "Toyota takes half the truck and SUV
>initial quality awards."
>
>Jeff

Actually, JDP does write a headline. In this case it was:

J.D. Power and Associates Reports:
Ford Motor Company Captures Most Awards in 2007 Initial Quality Study

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/new...spx?ID=2007088

You might be surprised by the amount of "news" which is really just
corporate press releases.

Jeff

Gordon McGrew wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 15:30:26 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Gordon McGrew wrote:
>> <...>
>>
>>> So why is the headline "Ford has more top models than Toyota" instead
>>> of "Toyota has higher overall quality than Ford?" It comes back to
>>> JDP's business; selling endorsements to advertisers. "Toyota beats
>>> Ford" is like "dog bites man." Toyota isn't going to pay money for a
>>> JDP badge that says what everyone already knows and assumes. Ford, on
>>> the other hand has a major credibility problem at this point and will
>>> gladly pay for an endorsement from an independent, well-known survey
>>> organization.
>> The headlines are written by newspapers, not by JD Powers. The headlines
>> could have just as easily been "Toyota takes half the truck and SUV
>> initial quality awards."
>>
>> Jeff
>
> Actually, JDP does write a headline. In this case it was:
>
> J.D. Power and Associates Reports:
> Ford Motor Company Captures Most Awards in 2007 Initial Quality Study
>
> http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/new...spx?ID=2007088
>
> You might be surprised by the amount of "news" which is really just
> corporate press releases.

That's not the headline that was in the paper. Go to news.google.com,
type in auto quality. Not one of the articles had that for the headline.
Like I said, JD Power doesn't write the newspaper headlines, the
newspapers do.

Jeff

Gordon McGrew wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 15:30:26 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Gordon McGrew wrote:
>> <...>
>>
>>> So why is the headline "Ford has more top models than Toyota" instead
>>> of "Toyota has higher overall quality than Ford?" It comes back to
>>> JDP's business; selling endorsements to advertisers. "Toyota beats
>>> Ford" is like "dog bites man." Toyota isn't going to pay money for a
>>> JDP badge that says what everyone already knows and assumes. Ford, on
>>> the other hand has a major credibility problem at this point and will
>>> gladly pay for an endorsement from an independent, well-known survey
>>> organization.
>> The headlines are written by newspapers, not by JD Powers. The headlines
>> could have just as easily been "Toyota takes half the truck and SUV
>> initial quality awards."
>>
>> Jeff
>
> Actually, JDP does write a headline. In this case it was:
>
> J.D. Power and Associates Reports:
> Ford Motor Company Captures Most Awards in 2007 Initial Quality Study
>
> http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/new...spx?ID=2007088
>
> You might be surprised by the amount of "news" which is really just
> corporate press releases.

That's not the headline that was in the paper. Go to news.google.com,
type in auto quality. Not one of the articles had that for the headline.
Like I said, JD Power doesn't write the newspaper headlines, the
newspapers do.