Bionic Man

Are you guys aware that Honda recommends only using "Top Tier" gas in
their cars? Same goes for Toyota, BMW and GM. It has to do with the
amount of detergent additives. Here's an excerpt from Car and Driver
magazine.

"Gasoline is gasoline whether you're in Florida or California, right?
Wrong. There are different concentrations of elements like sulfur, for
example, that change the chemical composition of a batch of gasoline.
Since it's not known what causes these deposits, gasoline retailers
can't be penalized for selling defective fuel. So to keep the deposits
from forming in the engines, you need detergents added to the fuel.
But how do you know which brands have the right kinds of detergents
and additives to keep your injectors clean? Until recently, that was a
tough question to answer, but in 2004, representatives from BMW,
General Motors, Honda, and Toyota got together to specify what makes a
good fuel.
They called their agreed-on standard "Top Tier" and published it for
the various gasoline retailers to voluntarily meet. So far, eight
companies currently sell gas that meets the Top Tier standard."

If you want to see the entire article, go to
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...olumn/(page)/1

In my research on this, I read somewhere that when the federal govt.
adopted minimum standards for gasoline, some vendors dropped their
standard to meet the federal minimums. Around that time, the Top-Tier
designation arose.

I just checked with the service manager at my local Honda dealer. He
was definite in his endorsement of using only Top-Tier gas.

There are some who don't think much of this "top tier" designation,
but if the auto manufacturers are recommending this, I'll listen to
the experts. Times have changed, and so I guess has the old notion
that "all gas is the same".

Dh

"Bionic Man" <t.p.bernhardt@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:0330a87c-03fc-4c12-95f0-35799060ca3a@x5g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
> Are you guys aware that Honda recommends only using "Top Tier" gas in
> their cars? Same goes for Toyota, BMW and GM. It has to do with the
> amount of detergent additives. Here's an excerpt from Car and Driver
> magazine.
>
> "Gasoline is gasoline whether you're in Florida or California, right?
> Wrong. There are different concentrations of elements like sulfur, for
> example, that change the chemical composition of a batch of gasoline.
> Since it's not known what causes these deposits, gasoline retailers
> can't be penalized for selling defective fuel. So to keep the deposits
> from forming in the engines, you need detergents added to the fuel.
> But how do you know which brands have the right kinds of detergents
> and additives to keep your injectors clean? Until recently, that was a
> tough question to answer, but in 2004, representatives from BMW,
> General Motors, Honda, and Toyota got together to specify what makes a
> good fuel.
> They called their agreed-on standard "Top Tier" and published it for
> the various gasoline retailers to voluntarily meet. So far, eight
> companies currently sell gas that meets the Top Tier standard."
>
> If you want to see the entire article, go to
> http://www.caranddriver.com/features...olumn/(page)/1
>
> In my research on this, I read somewhere that when the federal govt.
> adopted minimum standards for gasoline, some vendors dropped their
> standard to meet the federal minimums. Around that time, the Top-Tier
> designation arose.
>
> I just checked with the service manager at my local Honda dealer. He
> was definite in his endorsement of using only Top-Tier gas.
>
> There are some who don't think much of this "top tier" designation,
> but if the auto manufacturers are recommending this, I'll listen to
> the experts. Times have changed, and so I guess has the old notion
> that "all gas is the same".

The link pretty much repeats this post. Links in the link lie. There seems
to not be a www.toptiergas.com
Park you mouse on that link and IE will tell you it really points to
caranddriver.com. No info on gasoline.
Looks like some bogus PR to me.

Elmo P. Shagnasty

In article <aHT%l.1227$bq1.895@nlpi066.nbdc.sbc.com>,
"Dh" <Dh@home.invalid.tv> wrote:

> Links in the link lie. There seems
> to not be a www.toptiergas.com

Yeah, it's disappeared--archive.org knows, and there's a Wikipedia entry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Tie...rgent_Gasoline

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.toptiergas.com

I don't know why the web site disappeared.

Anyway, fact: Shell gas was cheaper for me to run than grocery store
gas in an older car I drove. Does that extrapolate to all Top Tier
gasolines? I don't know.

Tegger

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
A5DD8F.19533922062009@news.eternal-september.org:

> In article <aHT%l.1227$bq1.895@nlpi066.nbdc.sbc.com>,
> "Dh" <Dh@home.invalid.tv> wrote:
>
>> Links in the link lie. There seems
>> to not be a www.toptiergas.com
>
> Yeah, it's disappeared--archive.org knows, and there's a Wikipedia entry.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Tie...rgent_Gasoline
>
> http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.toptiergas.com
>
> I don't know why the web site disappeared.



Technically, it hasn't really disappeared. The DNS table still has an "A"
record for www.toptiergas.com at 69.20.125.210.

The site might just be down temporarily, I don't know.

Interestingly, toptiergas.com is a domain registered by General Motors
Corporation.


>
> Anyway, fact: Shell gas was cheaper for me to run than grocery store
> gas in an older car I drove. Does that extrapolate to all Top Tier
> gasolines? I don't know.
>



I've really wondered about the whole "Top Tier gas" thing.

I know Honda is one of the proponents, but I can't help wondering if it's
1) marketing, or 2) part of a "belt and suspenders" approach to emissions
warranty-claim avoidance, or something else.

I even called Imperial Oil (ExxonMobil's Canadian subsidiary) to ask why
they don't offer a "Top Tier" grade, and received no real answer.

However, last time I checked, "Top Tier" fuel standards required the use of
a certain amount of ethanol; gas with less than that was ineligible for
"Top Tier" rank. ExxonMobil uses as little ethanol as possible.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tony Hwang

Bionic Man wrote:
> Are you guys aware that Honda recommends only using "Top Tier" gas in
> their cars? Same goes for Toyota, BMW and GM. It has to do with the
> amount of detergent additives. Here's an excerpt from Car and Driver
> magazine.
>
> "Gasoline is gasoline whether you're in Florida or California, right?
> Wrong. There are different concentrations of elements like sulfur, for
> example, that change the chemical composition of a batch of gasoline.
> Since it's not known what causes these deposits, gasoline retailers
> can't be penalized for selling defective fuel. So to keep the deposits
> from forming in the engines, you need detergents added to the fuel.
> But how do you know which brands have the right kinds of detergents
> and additives to keep your injectors clean? Until recently, that was a
> tough question to answer, but in 2004, representatives from BMW,
> General Motors, Honda, and Toyota got together to specify what makes a
> good fuel.
> They called their agreed-on standard "Top Tier" and published it for
> the various gasoline retailers to voluntarily meet. So far, eight
> companies currently sell gas that meets the Top Tier standard."
>
> If you want to see the entire article, go to
> http://www.caranddriver.com/features...olumn/(page)/1
>
> In my research on this, I read somewhere that when the federal govt.
> adopted minimum standards for gasoline, some vendors dropped their
> standard to meet the federal minimums. Around that time, the Top-Tier
> designation arose.
>
> I just checked with the service manager at my local Honda dealer. He
> was definite in his endorsement of using only Top-Tier gas.
>
> There are some who don't think much of this "top tier" designation,
> but if the auto manufacturers are recommending this, I'll listen to
> the experts. Times have changed, and so I guess has the old notion
> that "all gas is the same".

Hmmm,
No kidding, Eh?

Bionic Man

On Jun 22, 10:48 pm, Tony Hwang <drago...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Bionic Man wrote:
> > Are you guys aware that Honda recommends only using "Top Tier" gas in
> > their cars? Same goes for Toyota, BMW and GM. It has to do with the
> > amount of detergent additives. Here's an excerpt from Car and Driver
> > magazine.
>
> > "Gasoline is gasoline whether you're in Florida or California, right?
> > Wrong. There are different concentrations of elements like sulfur, for
> > example, that change the chemical composition of a batch of gasoline.
> > Since it's not known what causes these deposits, gasoline retailers
> > can't be penalized for selling defective fuel. So to keep the deposits
> > from forming in the engines, you need detergents added to the fuel.
> > But how do you know which brands have the right kinds of detergents
> > and additives to keep your injectors clean? Until recently, that was a
> > tough question to answer, but in 2004, representatives from BMW,
> > General Motors, Honda, and Toyota got together to specify what makes a
> > good fuel.
> > They called their agreed-on standard "Top Tier" and published it for
> > the various gasoline retailers to voluntarily meet. So far, eight
> > companies currently sell gas that meets the Top Tier standard."
>
> > If you want to see the entire article, go to
> >http://www.caranddriver.com/features...larry_webster/...
>
> > In my research on this, I read somewhere that when the federal govt.
> > adopted minimum standards for gasoline, some vendors dropped their
> > standard to meet the federal minimums. Around that time, the Top-Tier
> > designation arose.
>
> > I just checked with the service manager at my local Honda dealer. He
> > was definite in his endorsement of using only Top-Tier gas.
>
> > There are some who don't think much of this "top tier" designation,
> > but if the auto manufacturers are recommending this, I'll listen to
> > the experts. Times have changed, and so I guess has the old notion
> > that "all gas is the same".
>
> Hmmm,
> No kidding, Eh?


No. I'm not kidding. I'm glad that some here have apparently done some
additional checking and I see that some here don't believe the "top-
tier" pitch. That echos what I've found when I tell my friends. Some
want to know more, others outright dismiss the notion that all gas is
not equal.

There is good reason to be skeptical, EXCEPT that the manufacturers
themselves RECOMMEND Top-Tier gas. Now, that COULD be due to a
clandestine marketing agreement between auto manufacturers and
gasoline retailers. BUT, if that is the case, wouldn't there be some
advertising? For example, I heard that FORD recommends only BP gas. In
fact, that recommendation is printed right on the Ford gas caps. That
clearly sounds like a marketing agreement to me.

I'm not trying to convince anyone here to buy Top-Tier gas. Instead, I
offered some at best "important information regarding proper car
care", and at worst "much ado about nothing". From what I've read here
so far, there is nothing to convince me of the latter.

Too bad there is so little information on this at least potentially
important topic. I'll stop back here from time to time to see if there
is anything new. In the meanwhile, I'll pay for the piece of mind and
limit my cars to Top-Tier gas.

Tegger

Bionic Man <t.p.bernhardt@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
news:4c5a3569-91aa-4e95-ae6e-b586894f7815@j20g2000vbp.googlegroups.com:


>
> Too bad there is so little information on this at least potentially
> important topic.



That's for sure.

To me, the whole thing smells faintly "off". Maybe it's all perfectly
above-board, but the relative lack of information (and participation) after
five long years has me wondering.



> I'll stop back here from time to time to see if there
> is anything new. In the meanwhile, I'll pay for the piece of mind and
> limit my cars to Top-Tier gas.



www.toptiergas.com is still down. Very weird.

ExxonMobil gas is not rated as "Top Tier" likely only because the "Top
Tier" standard requires more ethanol than Exxon is willing to use. Even if
Exxon fuels had more effective detergents than anybody else, you'd never
know, since they don't qualify for consideration in any case.

And what about Valero? Valero is America's largest gasoline refiner, and
they even operate their own retail stations. They're not "Top Tier" either.

What makes me more curious than anything else is why, after five years,
have Ford, Chrysler, Subaru, Suzuki, Mazda, Nissan, Hyundai, Mercedes, and
Volkswagen/Porsche/Audi _not_ jumped on the "Top Tier" bandwagon?


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Dillon Pyron

Thus spake Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv> :

>"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
>A5DD8F.19533922062009@news.eternal-september.org:
>
>> In article <aHT%l.1227$bq1.895@nlpi066.nbdc.sbc.com>,
>> "Dh" <Dh@home.invalid.tv> wrote:
>>
>>> Links in the link lie. There seems
>>> to not be a www.toptiergas.com
>>
>> Yeah, it's disappeared--archive.org knows, and there's a Wikipedia entry.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Tie...rgent_Gasoline
>>
>> http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.toptiergas.com
>>
>> I don't know why the web site disappeared.
>
>
>
>Technically, it hasn't really disappeared. The DNS table still has an "A"
>record for www.toptiergas.com at 69.20.125.210.
>
>The site might just be down temporarily, I don't know.
>
>Interestingly, toptiergas.com is a domain registered by General Motors
>Corporation.
>
>
>>
>> Anyway, fact: Shell gas was cheaper for me to run than grocery store
>> gas in an older car I drove. Does that extrapolate to all Top Tier
>> gasolines? I don't know.
>>
>
>
>
>I've really wondered about the whole "Top Tier gas" thing.
>
>I know Honda is one of the proponents, but I can't help wondering if it's
>1) marketing, or 2) part of a "belt and suspenders" approach to emissions
>warranty-claim avoidance, or something else.
>
>I even called Imperial Oil (ExxonMobil's Canadian subsidiary) to ask why
>they don't offer a "Top Tier" grade, and received no real answer.
>
>However, last time I checked, "Top Tier" fuel standards required the use of
>a certain amount of ethanol; gas with less than that was ineligible for
>"Top Tier" rank. ExxonMobil uses as little ethanol as possible.

Hmm on that last point. I thought that ethanol was bad for many cars,
or at least certain rubber components. I remember in our '96 cars
seeing the warning to not use more than 10% ethanol and that the E85
cars have to have some serious mods to them (else why make the big
deal).
--

- dillon I am not invalid

"Jimmy, I'm sorry your girlfriend turned out
to be a cylon."
-Special Agent Tim McGee, "NCIS"

Gordon McGrew

On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:47:12 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv>
wrote:

>Bionic Man <t.p.bernhardt@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
>news:4c5a3569-91aa-4e95-ae6e-b586894f7815@j20g2000vbp.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>>
>> Too bad there is so little information on this at least potentially
>> important topic.
>
>
>
>That's for sure.
>
>To me, the whole thing smells faintly "off". Maybe it's all perfectly
>above-board, but the relative lack of information (and participation) after
>five long years has me wondering.
>
>
>
>> I'll stop back here from time to time to see if there
>> is anything new. In the meanwhile, I'll pay for the piece of mind and
>> limit my cars to Top-Tier gas.
>
>
>
>www.toptiergas.com is still down. Very weird.
>
>ExxonMobil gas is not rated as "Top Tier" likely only because the "Top
>Tier" standard requires more ethanol than Exxon is willing to use. Even if
>Exxon fuels had more effective detergents than anybody else, you'd never
>know, since they don't qualify for consideration in any case.

In Chicago (maybe all of IL) all gas has 10% ethanol including Mobil.
For what it is worth, I had an '86 Integra that ran on regular gas.
After years of filling up at mostly one Mobil station, the car
developed a knock on acceleration. I believe that this was caused by
carbon build up in the head/valves. This is exactly the problem that
more detergent is intended to remedy.

>And what about Valero? Valero is America's largest gasoline refiner, and
>they even operate their own retail stations. They're not "Top Tier" either.
>
>What makes me more curious than anything else is why, after five years,
>have Ford, Chrysler, Subaru, Suzuki, Mazda, Nissan, Hyundai, Mercedes, and
>Volkswagen/Porsche/Audi _not_ jumped on the "Top Tier" bandwagon?

Certainly right to be skeptical of anything big corporations do. The
one thing that makes me think the Top Tier designation is legit is
that by accounts it is a published standard that any fuel company
could choose to meet.

Dillon Pyron

Thus spake Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> :

>On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:47:12 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv>
>wrote:
>
>>Bionic Man <t.p.bernhardt@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
>>news:4c5a3569-91aa-4e95-ae6e-b586894f7815@j20g2000vbp.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Too bad there is so little information on this at least potentially
>>> important topic.
>>
>>
>>
>>That's for sure.
>>
>>To me, the whole thing smells faintly "off". Maybe it's all perfectly
>>above-board, but the relative lack of information (and participation) after
>>five long years has me wondering.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I'll stop back here from time to time to see if there
>>> is anything new. In the meanwhile, I'll pay for the piece of mind and
>>> limit my cars to Top-Tier gas.
>>
>>
>>
>>www.toptiergas.com is still down. Very weird.
>>
>>ExxonMobil gas is not rated as "Top Tier" likely only because the "Top
>>Tier" standard requires more ethanol than Exxon is willing to use. Even if
>>Exxon fuels had more effective detergents than anybody else, you'd never
>>know, since they don't qualify for consideration in any case.
>
>In Chicago (maybe all of IL) all gas has 10% ethanol including Mobil.
>For what it is worth, I had an '86 Integra that ran on regular gas.
>After years of filling up at mostly one Mobil station, the car
>developed a knock on acceleration. I believe that this was caused by
>carbon build up in the head/valves. This is exactly the problem that
>more detergent is intended to remedy.
>
>>And what about Valero? Valero is America's largest gasoline refiner, and
>>they even operate their own retail stations. They're not "Top Tier" either.
>>
>>What makes me more curious than anything else is why, after five years,
>>have Ford, Chrysler, Subaru, Suzuki, Mazda, Nissan, Hyundai, Mercedes, and
>>Volkswagen/Porsche/Audi _not_ jumped on the "Top Tier" bandwagon?
>
>Certainly right to be skeptical of anything big corporations do. The
>one thing that makes me think the Top Tier designation is legit is
>that by accounts it is a published standard that any fuel company
>could choose to meet.

Who publishes this "standard"? ISO? ANSI? SEMA? SAE?

And, to quote a pretty neat movie, "if everyone's special, no one's
special".
--

- dillon I am not invalid

"Jimmy, I'm sorry your girlfriend turned out
to be a cylon."
-Special Agent Tim McGee, "NCIS"

ACAR

On Jun 24, 1:47 pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
> Bionic Man <t.p.bernha...@sbcglobal.net> wrote innews:4c5a3569-91aa-4e95-ae6e-b586894f7815@j20g2000vbp.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
> > Too bad there is so little information on this at least potentially
> > important topic.
>
> That's for sure.
>
> To me, the whole thing smells faintly "off". Maybe it's all perfectly
> above-board, but the relative lack of information (and participation) after
> five long years has me wondering.
>
> > I'll stop back here from time to time to see if there
> > is anything new. In the meanwhile, I'll pay for the piece of mind and
> > limit my cars to Top-Tier gas.
>
> www.toptiergas.com is still down. Very weird.

the site is back up.

I'm pretty sure all grades of gas must meet Top Tier standards for the
brand to get Top Tier approval.

Dh

"ACAR" <gmwohl@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c257c301-26d2-4d61-827e-54cb701727c3@j19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 24, 1:47 pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
> Bionic Man <t.p.bernha...@sbcglobal.net> wrote
> innews:4c5a3569-91aa-4e95-ae6e-b586894f7815@j20g2000vbp.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
> > Too bad there is so little information on this at least potentially
> > important topic.
>
> That's for sure.
>
> To me, the whole thing smells faintly "off". Maybe it's all perfectly
> above-board, but the relative lack of information (and participation)
> after
> five long years has me wondering.
>
> > I'll stop back here from time to time to see if there
> > is anything new. In the meanwhile, I'll pay for the piece of mind and
> > limit my cars to Top-Tier gas.
>
> www.toptiergas.com is still down. Very weird.

> the site is back up.
>
> I'm pretty sure all grades of gas must meet Top Tier standards for the
> brand to get Top Tier approval.

Internet Explorer cannot display the webpage

Elmo P. Shagnasty

In article
<c257c301-26d2-4d61-827e-54cb701727c3@j19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
ACAR <gmwohl@gmail.com> wrote:

> > www.toptiergas.com is still down. Very weird.
>
> the site is back up.

no, it's not. They've mapped toptiergas.com to AC Delco's site.

still no sign of the actual toptiergas.com content...

Tegger

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
04E75B.22052425062009@news.eternal-september.org:

> In article
> <c257c301-26d2-4d61-827e-54cb701727c3@j19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
> ACAR <gmwohl@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > www.toptiergas.com is still down. Very weird.
>>
>> the site is back up.
>
> no, it's not. They've mapped toptiergas.com to AC Delco's site.



It appears back to normal. No connection to AC Delco's site.


>
> still no sign of the actual toptiergas.com content...



Very little info at all, except that VW now appears to be part of the
consortium. But still not Ford, Chrysler, Subaru, Suzuki, Mazda, Nissan,
Hyundai or Mercedes.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger

ACAR <gmwohl@gmail.com> wrote in
news:c257c301-26d2-4d61-827e-54cb701727c3@j19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com:

> On Jun 24, 1:47 pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
>> Bionic Man <t.p.bernha...@sbcglobal.net> wrote
>> innews:4c5a3569-91aa-4e95-
> ae6e-b586894f7815@j20g2000vbp.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Too bad there is so little information on this at least potentially
>> > important topic.
>>
>> That's for sure.
>>
>> To me, the whole thing smells faintly "off". Maybe it's all perfectly
>> above-board, but the relative lack of information (and participation)
>> after five long years has me wondering.
>>
>> > I'll stop back here from time to time to see if there
>> > is anything new. In the meanwhile, I'll pay for the piece of mind
>> > and limit my cars to Top-Tier gas.
>>
>> www.toptiergas.com is still down. Very weird.
>
> the site is back up.
>
> I'm pretty sure all grades of gas must meet Top Tier standards for the
> brand to get Top Tier approval.
>
>


Excerpt from the standards page:

"The base fuel shall conform to ASTM D 4814 and shall contain commercial
fuel grade ethanol conforming to ASTM D 4806...Contain enough denatured
ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no
more than 10.0 volume percent..."
This, I suspect, is Exxon's issue. Ethanol wrecks the equipment and
requires expensive handling prior to retail. And the more ethanol the worse
the problem.

The site makes a big deal about the reduction in concentration of detergent
additives, but it seems to make no acknowledgement of the possibility that
additives may not need to be bulky to be effective. No particular additives
are specified.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/