Re: relay coil or battery internal resistance.
 

lamont1 coughed up:
> hello, i dont really understand perfectly what you measuring but it
> sounds like you are measuring the resistance of two wires that will
> be 12pos when the ignition is turned on. my first guess is that they
> have some kind of resistor in series with the cigerette lighter to
> reduce the current, perhaps the lighter by its self draws too much
> current. also, maybe some how you are measuring the internal
> resistance of the battery. are you measuring this resistance on a
> live set of wires?
> im guessing they have some kind of resistor in the circuit to reduce
> current to the lighter.

The hot lead to the cig is connected to an empty fuse location (open
circuit).

The ground lead to the cig is connected to the car ground.

I'm not sure what the heck is in-between the two that would somehow connect
them together, even "a little bit", other than something wired in /parallel/
somewhere.


--
Forgetthesong,I'dratherhavethefrontallobotomy...

Re: relay coil or battery internal resistance.
 

lamont1 coughed up:
> hello, i dont really understand perfectly what you measuring but it
> sounds like you are measuring the resistance of two wires that will
> be 12pos when the ignition is turned on. my first guess is that they
> have some kind of resistor in series with the cigerette lighter to
> reduce the current, perhaps the lighter by its self draws too much
> current. also, maybe some how you are measuring the internal
> resistance of the battery. are you measuring this resistance on a
> live set of wires?
> im guessing they have some kind of resistor in the circuit to reduce
> current to the lighter.

The hot lead to the cig is connected to an empty fuse location (open
circuit).

The ground lead to the cig is connected to the car ground.

I'm not sure what the heck is in-between the two that would somehow connect
them together, even "a little bit", other than something wired in /parallel/
somewhere.


--
Forgetthesong,I'dratherhavethefrontallobotomy...

Re: relay coil or battery internal resistance.
 

"Thomas G. Marshall" <tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail. com> wrote in message
news:UkCed.597$803.29@trndny04...
> lamont1 coughed up:
> > hello, i dont really understand perfectly what you measuring but it
> > sounds like you are measuring the resistance of two wires that will
> > be 12pos when the ignition is turned on. my first guess is that they
> > have some kind of resistor in series with the cigerette lighter to
> > reduce the current, perhaps the lighter by its self draws too much
> > current. also, maybe some how you are measuring the internal
> > resistance of the battery. are you measuring this resistance on a
> > live set of wires?
> > im guessing they have some kind of resistor in the circuit to reduce
> > current to the lighter.

> The hot lead to the cig is connected to an empty fuse location (open
> circuit). The ground lead to the cig is connected to the car ground.
> I'm not sure what the heck is in-between the two that would somehow connect
> them together, even "a little bit", other than something wired in /parallel/
> somewhere.

The 8-Ohm sounds like a relay. Your CRV's cigarette lighter is most
likely powering an accessory relay of some sort. To find out, disconnect the
cigarette lighter power at the fuse panel. Then try to operate the suspected
accessory. I've read a few post back regarding an individual who had tried
your method but end up with a drained battery a few weeks later... Locate
the relay and rewire it, or let it defy how you intended to wire it.

Re: relay coil or battery internal resistance.
 

"Thomas G. Marshall" <tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail. com> wrote in message
news:UkCed.597$803.29@trndny04...
> lamont1 coughed up:
> > hello, i dont really understand perfectly what you measuring but it
> > sounds like you are measuring the resistance of two wires that will
> > be 12pos when the ignition is turned on. my first guess is that they
> > have some kind of resistor in series with the cigerette lighter to
> > reduce the current, perhaps the lighter by its self draws too much
> > current. also, maybe some how you are measuring the internal
> > resistance of the battery. are you measuring this resistance on a
> > live set of wires?
> > im guessing they have some kind of resistor in the circuit to reduce
> > current to the lighter.

> The hot lead to the cig is connected to an empty fuse location (open
> circuit). The ground lead to the cig is connected to the car ground.
> I'm not sure what the heck is in-between the two that would somehow connect
> them together, even "a little bit", other than something wired in /parallel/
> somewhere.

The 8-Ohm sounds like a relay. Your CRV's cigarette lighter is most
likely powering an accessory relay of some sort. To find out, disconnect the
cigarette lighter power at the fuse panel. Then try to operate the suspected
accessory. I've read a few post back regarding an individual who had tried
your method but end up with a drained battery a few weeks later... Locate
the relay and rewire it, or let it defy how you intended to wire it.

Re: HELP!!! Cig. Lighter: 9 ohms between POS and GROUND????
 

"Thomas G. Marshall" wrote:

> Well, ...... The fuse is /pulled/.
>
> A friend of mine said that cars "in the old days but perhaps still" used to
> put capacitors in between the pos and neg of various places in the car to
> act as voltage regulators, to smooth out the spikes and valleys.

If you measure the *resistance* of a capacitor, you will initially get a
low reading that gradually increases to at least hundreds of kiloohms.
How quickly the reading changes depends on your instrument and the
capacitance, but you will not get a steady state reading of 8 ohms.

> He's saying that might be supplying the resistance. He also said something
> I already knew, that 8 Ohms is suspicious, because it's the resistance of
> most speakers.

8 ohms is the *impedance* of most speakers for home use. Most car stereo
speakers have an impedance rating of 4 ohms. Regardless, the DC
resistance (which is what you are measuring with your ohm-meter) is
often less than the rated impedance.

Do you know what else is on the lighter circuit? Lightbulbs give
deceptive resistance measurements. A type 67 bulb is rated 0.69 Amps at
13.5 Volts, which means the resistance is 19.5 Ohms or so *when the bulb
is lit*. If you measure the resistance of a cold, dark 67 bulb you will
read less than 2 ohms. Perhaps there is a light around the lighter
socket that throws off your reading?

Re: HELP!!! Cig. Lighter: 9 ohms between POS and GROUND????
 

"Thomas G. Marshall" wrote:

> Well, ...... The fuse is /pulled/.
>
> A friend of mine said that cars "in the old days but perhaps still" used to
> put capacitors in between the pos and neg of various places in the car to
> act as voltage regulators, to smooth out the spikes and valleys.

If you measure the *resistance* of a capacitor, you will initially get a
low reading that gradually increases to at least hundreds of kiloohms.
How quickly the reading changes depends on your instrument and the
capacitance, but you will not get a steady state reading of 8 ohms.

> He's saying that might be supplying the resistance. He also said something
> I already knew, that 8 Ohms is suspicious, because it's the resistance of
> most speakers.

8 ohms is the *impedance* of most speakers for home use. Most car stereo
speakers have an impedance rating of 4 ohms. Regardless, the DC
resistance (which is what you are measuring with your ohm-meter) is
often less than the rated impedance.

Do you know what else is on the lighter circuit? Lightbulbs give
deceptive resistance measurements. A type 67 bulb is rated 0.69 Amps at
13.5 Volts, which means the resistance is 19.5 Ohms or so *when the bulb
is lit*. If you measure the resistance of a cold, dark 67 bulb you will
read less than 2 ohms. Perhaps there is a light around the lighter
socket that throws off your reading?

Re: HELP!!! Cig. Lighter: 9 ohms between POS and GROUND????
 

"Thomas G. Marshall" <tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail. com>
wrote in message news:%hCed.1549$eU2.227@trndny05...
>
> What I've done for my changes are to remove the 10A fuse from the cig.
> slot,
> connect the always on options blade with a wire with an inline fuse (the
> same 10A) to a mini-blade (I concocted from a real blade) that I inserted
> directly into the cig fuse slot at the side that goes directly to the cig
> lighter.
>
> The idea being that I'm reusing the same wiring as before, just powering
> it
> differently at the fuse box.
>
> Interesting, perhaps this sheds some light, and TELL ME IF IT MEANS I
> SHOULD
> UNDO THIS, but a relay clicks on the moment I connected the always on.
> New
> questions:

Well, that could answer the question of where the control relay is. Sounds
like it is between the fuse and the load. I wouldn't leave it as such. Why
explained below.

> 1. Could the presence of this relay be part of the reason there was a
> measurable 8 ohms?

Could be. Also, as "Randolph" mentioned, you don't know what else is on the
same circuit (like a bulb somewhere) that is giving the connection (at 8
ohms)

> 2. Is it ok for a car relay to be "on" all the time?

There is a remote chance you could burn out the coil (in the relay) as it
wasn't meant to be on 24x7. But the real concern is what else are you
powering 24x7 on that same circuit that could lead to a dead battery in a
short time (like if you didn't drive the car for a few days). For example,
due to the click you heard the second you "hot wired" the circuit, you are
powering the cig lighter AND the control relay.

> You have been exceedingly helpful. I'll let you know if this works long
> term, or if disaster occurs {shudder}, or if the battery dies.

I would undo what you did and go with my wiring scheme. Here you know you
are only powering the cig lighter 24x7 and nothing else.

Re: HELP!!! Cig. Lighter: 9 ohms between POS and GROUND????
 

"Thomas G. Marshall" <tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail. com>
wrote in message news:%hCed.1549$eU2.227@trndny05...
>
> What I've done for my changes are to remove the 10A fuse from the cig.
> slot,
> connect the always on options blade with a wire with an inline fuse (the
> same 10A) to a mini-blade (I concocted from a real blade) that I inserted
> directly into the cig fuse slot at the side that goes directly to the cig
> lighter.
>
> The idea being that I'm reusing the same wiring as before, just powering
> it
> differently at the fuse box.
>
> Interesting, perhaps this sheds some light, and TELL ME IF IT MEANS I
> SHOULD
> UNDO THIS, but a relay clicks on the moment I connected the always on.
> New
> questions:

Well, that could answer the question of where the control relay is. Sounds
like it is between the fuse and the load. I wouldn't leave it as such. Why
explained below.

> 1. Could the presence of this relay be part of the reason there was a
> measurable 8 ohms?

Could be. Also, as "Randolph" mentioned, you don't know what else is on the
same circuit (like a bulb somewhere) that is giving the connection (at 8
ohms)

> 2. Is it ok for a car relay to be "on" all the time?

There is a remote chance you could burn out the coil (in the relay) as it
wasn't meant to be on 24x7. But the real concern is what else are you
powering 24x7 on that same circuit that could lead to a dead battery in a
short time (like if you didn't drive the car for a few days). For example,
due to the click you heard the second you "hot wired" the circuit, you are
powering the cig lighter AND the control relay.

> You have been exceedingly helpful. I'll let you know if this works long
> term, or if disaster occurs {shudder}, or if the battery dies.

I would undo what you did and go with my wiring scheme. Here you know you
are only powering the cig lighter 24x7 and nothing else.

Re: HELP!!! Cig. Lighter: 9 ohms between POS and GROUND????
 

"Thomas G. Marshall" wrote:

<snip>

> What I've done for my changes are to remove the 10A fuse from the cig. slot,
> connect the always on options blade with a wire with an inline fuse (the
> same 10A) to a mini-blade (I concocted from a real blade) that I inserted
> directly into the cig fuse slot at the side that goes directly to the cig
> lighter.
>
> The idea being that I'm reusing the same wiring as before, just powering it
> differently at the fuse box.
>
> Interesting, perhaps this sheds some light, and TELL ME IF IT MEANS I SHOULD
> UNDO THIS, but a relay clicks on the moment I connected the always on. New
> questions:
>
> 1. Could the presence of this relay be part of the reason there was a
> measurable 8 ohms?
> 2. Is it ok for a car relay to be "on" all the time?

The lighter is not the only thing on that circuit. You are now
constantly applying power to other loads in the car. Yes, the relay
would throw off your resistance measurement, but there is probably more
stuff on that circuit. Another gentleman in your earlier thread about
this said he did something similar to what you have done. He too heard
the relay click. He found his battery drained some time after doing this
modification.

If 8 ohms is the real resistance of the circuit, you would be drawing
something like 1.5 amps at all times. 2 days of this is enough to
completely drain most car batteries.

If you want the lighter socket to be powered at all times, there really
is no way around pulling a new wire from the lighter socket to the fuse
box. If the lighter socket has a built-in light, that light should be
removed or disabled somehow to avoid excess battery drain.

Re: HELP!!! Cig. Lighter: 9 ohms between POS and GROUND????
 

"Thomas G. Marshall" wrote:

<snip>

> What I've done for my changes are to remove the 10A fuse from the cig. slot,
> connect the always on options blade with a wire with an inline fuse (the
> same 10A) to a mini-blade (I concocted from a real blade) that I inserted
> directly into the cig fuse slot at the side that goes directly to the cig
> lighter.
>
> The idea being that I'm reusing the same wiring as before, just powering it
> differently at the fuse box.
>
> Interesting, perhaps this sheds some light, and TELL ME IF IT MEANS I SHOULD
> UNDO THIS, but a relay clicks on the moment I connected the always on. New
> questions:
>
> 1. Could the presence of this relay be part of the reason there was a
> measurable 8 ohms?
> 2. Is it ok for a car relay to be "on" all the time?

The lighter is not the only thing on that circuit. You are now
constantly applying power to other loads in the car. Yes, the relay
would throw off your resistance measurement, but there is probably more
stuff on that circuit. Another gentleman in your earlier thread about
this said he did something similar to what you have done. He too heard
the relay click. He found his battery drained some time after doing this
modification.

If 8 ohms is the real resistance of the circuit, you would be drawing
something like 1.5 amps at all times. 2 days of this is enough to
completely drain most car batteries.

If you want the lighter socket to be powered at all times, there really
is no way around pulling a new wire from the lighter socket to the fuse
box. If the lighter socket has a built-in light, that light should be
removed or disabled somehow to avoid excess battery drain.

Re: HELP!!! Cig. Lighter: 9 ohms between POS and GROUND????
 

Thomas G. Marshall wrote:
[...]
>
> Well thanks for your considerate replies. I will try some of your
> suggestions, but I proceeded with my installation anyway. Hopefully
> my car won't burn to the ground overnight. At least my garage is a
> detached one.....
>
> What I've done for my changes are to remove the 10A fuse from the
> cig. slot, connect the always on options blade with a wire with an
> inline fuse (the same 10A) to a mini-blade (I concocted from a real
> blade) that I inserted directly into the cig fuse slot at the side
> that goes directly to the cig lighter.
>
> The idea being that I'm reusing the same wiring as before, just
> powering it differently at the fuse box.
>
> Interesting, perhaps this sheds some light, and TELL ME IF IT MEANS I
> SHOULD UNDO THIS, but a relay clicks on the moment I connected the
> always on. New questions:
>
> 1. Could the presence of this relay be part of the reason there
> was a measurable 8 ohms?

The coil resistance of 12Vdc relays is twixt 50 and 150 Ohms.

> 2. Is it ok for a car relay to be "on" all the time?

Is it something to do with an alarm?

Did you observe the 'click' when connecting the the wires to their
original blades/spades?

Can you put your multi-meter in series with the hot wire to the fuse
panel and set it, at first, to the highest current range (10A?) and
switch it to more sensitive ranges only if the current is low. DON'T
push the lighter in while in this configuration if your meter can't take
the same current as the fuse.

Report what you get.

--
Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial
WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro-society.freeserve.co.uk/ Wessex
Dorset UK Astro Society's Web pages, Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps
Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter.

Re: HELP!!! Cig. Lighter: 9 ohms between POS and GROUND????
 

Thomas G. Marshall wrote:
[...]
>
> Well thanks for your considerate replies. I will try some of your
> suggestions, but I proceeded with my installation anyway. Hopefully
> my car won't burn to the ground overnight. At least my garage is a
> detached one.....
>
> What I've done for my changes are to remove the 10A fuse from the
> cig. slot, connect the always on options blade with a wire with an
> inline fuse (the same 10A) to a mini-blade (I concocted from a real
> blade) that I inserted directly into the cig fuse slot at the side
> that goes directly to the cig lighter.
>
> The idea being that I'm reusing the same wiring as before, just
> powering it differently at the fuse box.
>
> Interesting, perhaps this sheds some light, and TELL ME IF IT MEANS I
> SHOULD UNDO THIS, but a relay clicks on the moment I connected the
> always on. New questions:
>
> 1. Could the presence of this relay be part of the reason there
> was a measurable 8 ohms?

The coil resistance of 12Vdc relays is twixt 50 and 150 Ohms.

> 2. Is it ok for a car relay to be "on" all the time?

Is it something to do with an alarm?

Did you observe the 'click' when connecting the the wires to their
original blades/spades?

Can you put your multi-meter in series with the hot wire to the fuse
panel and set it, at first, to the highest current range (10A?) and
switch it to more sensitive ranges only if the current is low. DON'T
push the lighter in while in this configuration if your meter can't take
the same current as the fuse.

Report what you get.

--
Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial
WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro-society.freeserve.co.uk/ Wessex
Dorset UK Astro Society's Web pages, Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps
Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter.

Re: HELP!!! Cig. Lighter: 9 ohms between POS and GROUND????
 

Seth coughed up:
> "Thomas G. Marshall"
> <tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail. com> wrote in
> message news:%hCed.1549$eU2.227@trndny05...

....[rip]...



> There is a remote chance you could burn out the coil (in the relay)
> as it wasn't meant to be on 24x7. But the real concern is what else
> are you powering 24x7 on that same circuit that could lead to a dead
> battery in a short time (like if you didn't drive the car for a few
> days). For example, due to the click you heard the second you "hot
> wired" the circuit, you are powering the cig lighter AND the control
> relay.

I will ask this first, and then get to the rest of your questions when I
have a minute. (I'm running to the garage screaming with my arms in the
air)...

Question: Is it possible that the 10A line is for controlling the relay
/only/ and that the relay is actually a 50A line or something larger to
drive the pull from a plugged in cig lighter?

....[rip]...


--
Framsticks. 3D Artificial Life evolution. You can see the creatures
that evolve and how they interact, hunt, swim, etc. (Unaffiliated with
me). http://www.frams.alife.pl/

Re: HELP!!! Cig. Lighter: 9 ohms between POS and GROUND????
 

Seth coughed up:
> "Thomas G. Marshall"
> <tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail. com> wrote in
> message news:%hCed.1549$eU2.227@trndny05...

....[rip]...



> There is a remote chance you could burn out the coil (in the relay)
> as it wasn't meant to be on 24x7. But the real concern is what else
> are you powering 24x7 on that same circuit that could lead to a dead
> battery in a short time (like if you didn't drive the car for a few
> days). For example, due to the click you heard the second you "hot
> wired" the circuit, you are powering the cig lighter AND the control
> relay.

I will ask this first, and then get to the rest of your questions when I
have a minute. (I'm running to the garage screaming with my arms in the
air)...

Question: Is it possible that the 10A line is for controlling the relay
/only/ and that the relay is actually a 50A line or something larger to
drive the pull from a plugged in cig lighter?

....[rip]...


--
Framsticks. 3D Artificial Life evolution. You can see the creatures
that evolve and how they interact, hunt, swim, etc. (Unaffiliated with
me). http://www.frams.alife.pl/

Re: HELP!!! Cig. Lighter: 9 ohms between POS and GROUND????
 

Seth coughed up:

....[rip]...

> I would undo what you did and go with my wiring scheme. Here you
> know you are only powering the cig lighter 24x7 and nothing else.

You guys have been great.

Ok, I've taken yours and Randolf's and other's advice and undid what I did.
The system is back to normal. Relay has clicked back open. Now....

I've looked carefully at the cig lighter, and cannot determine how to pull
it out of it's enclosure in the dash. I don't have a service manual for
this thing (I think I'll go buy a bentley manual for it soon---I have one
for my audi, and they're pretty good).

Can you point to someplace on the web that can help me figure out what to
undo? Is it a simple paragraph of explanation? I've opened up several
dashboads in my time, but the mounts for this one seem pretty concealed, and
at least /tight/.

Thanks!!!!


--
Framsticks. 3D Artificial Life evolution. You can see the creatures
that evolve and how they interact, hunt, swim, etc. (Unaffiliated with
me). http://www.frams.alife.pl/