Caroline

Anyone have this? Is it a pain in the neck to look up pages on CD and print out
the ones you need?

Ebay has some good deals for this and I am considering one.

CaptainKrunch

As computer savvy as I am I still prefer catalogs for large volumes of
material. I prefer to "flip" through a book to find information rather
than relying on a computer.

But the CD has it's advantages like printing out pages and not having to
worry about getting them dirty.

I prefer the Helm Books.

CaptainKrunch


"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bqLrc.5944$be.615@newsread2.news.pas.earthlin k.net...
> Anyone have this? Is it a pain in the neck to look up pages on CD and
print out
> the ones you need?
>
> Ebay has some good deals for this and I am considering one.
>
>

User

Caroline wrote:
>
> Anyone have this? Is it a pain in the neck to look up pages on CD and
> print out the ones you need?
>
> Ebay has some good deals for this and I am considering one.

I did a search on Ebay's site for these CDs. I find it curious that there
are no pictures of any of these CDs for the few items that I looked at.
It's also curious that Helm is charging $20 for a training CD that just
covers one topic, e.g., http://tinyurl.com/2tawq while they're charging $85
for a full Electrical Troubleshooting Manual on CD, e.g.,
http://tinyurl.com/3xtel, which incidentally is only available in spanish.

I think it's likely that the CDs available on Ebay are home made and that
they were probably created using a website grabber such as HTTrack
(http://tucows.tierranet.com/preview/193804.html) from a source such as
http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/workshopmanuals2.html. Not that this is a bad
think, but the CDs may not be legal with respect to copyright issues. Honda
is fairly protective of their name. For example, in the early '90s all
independent shops in my area were challenged with lawsuits from Honda in
order drop the word Honda from the shop's name. The CDs may or may not be
complete either, i.e., for a product selling for only $2 I can't imagine
someone putting much effort into it.

Caroline

"User" <user@domain.invalid> wrote
> Caroline wrote:
> >
> > Anyone have this? Is it a pain in the neck to look up pages on CD and
> > print out the ones you need?
> >
> > Ebay has some good deals for this and I am considering one.
>
> I did a search on Ebay's site for these CDs. I find it curious that there
> are no pictures of any of these CDs for the few items that I looked at.
> It's also curious that Helm is charging $20 for a training CD that just
> covers one topic, e.g., http://tinyurl.com/2tawq while they're charging $85
> for a full Electrical Troubleshooting Manual on CD, e.g.,
> http://tinyurl.com/3xtel, which incidentally is only available in spanish.
>
> I think it's likely that the CDs available on Ebay are home made and that
> they were probably created using a website grabber such as HTTrack
> (http://tucows.tierranet.com/preview/193804.html) from a source such as
> http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/workshopmanuals2.html.

But the above site has manuals that seem more like online Chilton's: Good for a
lot of repairs and maintenance (I use one often) but from my understanding not
nearly as detailed as the Helm manuals.

> Not that this is a bad
> think, but the CDs may not be legal with respect to copyright issues.

I agree these offerings on E-bay appear fishy.

> Honda
> is fairly protective of their name. For example, in the early '90s all
> independent shops in my area were challenged with lawsuits from Honda in
> order drop the word Honda from the shop's name. The CDs may or may not be
> complete either, i.e., for a product selling for only $2 I can't imagine
> someone putting much effort into it.

Yes, I agree.

Then too the one at which I'm looking has a $6 shipping charge. That's
extravagant and so also seems fishy.

I see none of the several Helm Honda civic CDs have bids on them right now. I
have emailed the seller (seems to be just one guy) to see if he'll talk about
his "methods." His feedback is very good, anyway: some 138 people gave him
praise, only one person was negative, and one more was neutral. Many of these
folks bought CDs from him, and from the list of what he's selling, it sounds
like they're likely Helm manual CDs.

Thanks for checking and sharing your impression.

User

Caroline wrote:
> > I think it's likely that the CDs available on Ebay are home made and
> > that they were probably created using a website grabber such as
> > HTTrack (http://tucows.tierranet.com/preview/193804.html) from a
> > source such as http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/workshopmanuals2.html.
>
> But the above site has manuals that seem more like online Chilton's:
> Good for a lot of repairs and maintenance (I use one often) but from my
> understanding not nearly as detailed as the Helm manuals.

The manuals at the above site are identical to the Helm manuals.

Mista Bone

Likely they grabbed they mnauals from here........

http://icelord.net/honda/repair/

Nothing like free right??????
Another Ebay scam????


"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bqLrc.5944$be.615@newsread2.news.pas.earthlin k.net...
> Anyone have this? Is it a pain in the neck to look up pages on CD and
print out
> the ones you need?
>
> Ebay has some good deals for this and I am considering one.
>
>

Caroline

"User" <user@domain.invalid> wrote
> Caroline wrote:
> > > I think it's likely that the CDs available on Ebay are home made and
> > > that they were probably created using a website grabber such as
> > > HTTrack (http://tucows.tierranet.com/preview/193804.html) from a
> > > source such as http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/workshopmanuals2.html.
> >
> > But the above site has manuals that seem more like online Chilton's:
> > Good for a lot of repairs and maintenance (I use one often) but from my
> > understanding not nearly as detailed as the Helm manuals.
>
> The manuals at the above site are identical to the Helm manuals.

May I ask: How do you know?

I ask because people online celebrate the Helm manuals as the best--very
detailed and very precise in their directions. Yet I do not find the UK site's
manuals any more impressive than Chilton's.

For example, the directions for the timing belt change on a 1991 Honda Concerto
omit

1. Any mention of removal of the cruise control actuator (it's right above the
side engine mount)
2. Any mention of supporting the oil pan (and thus engine) prior to removing the
side engine mount
3. Any mention of restraining the crankshaft pulley when removing the crankshaft
pulley bolt (which it calls the "special bolt").

Aside: Thanks Krunch and Mista for your input.

jim beam

Caroline wrote:
> "User" <user@domain.invalid> wrote
>
>>Caroline wrote:
>>
>>>>I think it's likely that the CDs available on Ebay are home made and
>>>>that they were probably created using a website grabber such as
>>>>HTTrack (http://tucows.tierranet.com/preview/193804.html) from a
>>>>source such as http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/workshopmanuals2.html.
>>>
>>>But the above site has manuals that seem more like online Chilton's:
>>>Good for a lot of repairs and maintenance (I use one often) but from my
>>>understanding not nearly as detailed as the Helm manuals.
>>
>>The manuals at the above site are identical to the Helm manuals.
>
>
> May I ask: How do you know?
>
> I ask because people online celebrate the Helm manuals as the best--very
> detailed and very precise in their directions. Yet I do not find the UK site's
> manuals any more impressive than Chilton's.
>
> For example, the directions for the timing belt change on a 1991 Honda Concerto
> omit
>
> 1. Any mention of removal of the cruise control actuator (it's right above the
> side engine mount)
> 2. Any mention of supporting the oil pan (and thus engine) prior to removing the
> side engine mount
> 3. Any mention of restraining the crankshaft pulley when removing the crankshaft
> pulley bolt (which it calls the "special bolt").
>
> Aside: Thanks Krunch and Mista for your input.
>

hey caroline

don't want to sound pedantic, but you have to make /some/ assumptions
here - like whether the person doing the job has any experience.
presumably, if they're doing a job like this, they do. knowing from
experience that the engine needs support when removing a motor mount is
in the same league as knowing which end of a wrench to hold. spelling
out every rudimentary triviality is not very productive for someone that
has basic shop skills.

likewise, the crankshaft pulley bolt does not require restraint if
you're using pneumatic tools - as almost /all/ shops will. restraint
will only be necessary when re-torquing, and even then, it's not
strictly necessary if using the correct torque bar on a pneumatic driver.

to get back to the point, the reason people recommend helm is because
they sell the official manufacturer shop manuals. you pretty much
/have/ to trust their information is correct.

Kelsen

On 5/23/2004 11:06 AM jim beam spake these words of knowledge:

> Caroline wrote:
>> "User" <user@domain.invalid> wrote
>>
>>>Caroline wrote:
>>>
>>>>>I think it's likely that the CDs available on Ebay are home made and
>>>>>that they were probably created using a website grabber such as
>>>>>HTTrack (http://tucows.tierranet.com/preview/193804.html) from a
>>>>>source such as http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/workshopmanuals2.html.
>>>>
>>>>But the above site has manuals that seem more like online Chilton's:
>>>>Good for a lot of repairs and maintenance (I use one often) but from my
>>>>understanding not nearly as detailed as the Helm manuals.
>>>
>>>The manuals at the above site are identical to the Helm manuals.
>>
>>
>> May I ask: How do you know?
>>
>> I ask because people online celebrate the Helm manuals as the best--very
>> detailed and very precise in their directions. Yet I do not find the UK site's
>> manuals any more impressive than Chilton's.
>>
>> For example, the directions for the timing belt change on a 1991 Honda Concerto
>> omit
>>
>> 1. Any mention of removal of the cruise control actuator (it's right above the
>> side engine mount)
>> 2. Any mention of supporting the oil pan (and thus engine) prior to removing the
>> side engine mount
>> 3. Any mention of restraining the crankshaft pulley when removing the crankshaft
>> pulley bolt (which it calls the "special bolt").
>>
>> Aside: Thanks Krunch and Mista for your input.
>>
>
> hey caroline
>
> don't want to sound pedantic, but you have to make /some/ assumptions
> here - like whether the person doing the job has any experience.
> presumably, if they're doing a job like this, they do. knowing from
> experience that the engine needs support when removing a motor mount is
> in the same league as knowing which end of a wrench to hold. spelling
> out every rudimentary triviality is not very productive for someone that
> has basic shop skills.
>
> likewise, the crankshaft pulley bolt does not require restraint if
> you're using pneumatic tools - as almost /all/ shops will. restraint
> will only be necessary when re-torquing, and even then, it's not
> strictly necessary if using the correct torque bar on a pneumatic driver.
>
> to get back to the point, the reason people recommend helm is because
> they sell the official manufacturer shop manuals. you pretty much
> /have/ to trust their information is correct.

I don't think that a company making such an assumption would necessarily
be wrong -- that said, Helm doesn't, as far as I can tell. I have the
Helm manual for my 2001 Odyssey and my 2003 Accord, and if you have to
take a single screw out to accomplish a task, it tells you. In most
cases, it is a reference to another page that delineates the procedure
for removing whatever has to be removed in order to get to removing the
subject at hand. In my experience (so far) with these manuals, it's
*all* in there, just as Caroline expects. That said, I also wonder if
what she's seeing is in fact identical to the Helm manual, although the
bit I looked at, the 'table of contents', so to speak, *did* look to be
the same.

--
RFT!!!
Dave Kelsen
Now that the Supreme Court has struck down sodomy laws, our politicians
have one less potential charge to worry about.

Caroline

"jim beam" <uce@ftc.gov> wrote
> Caroline wrote:
> > "User" <user@domain.invalid> wrote
> >>Caroline wrote:
snip
> >>>>source such as http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/workshopmanuals2.html.
snip
> >>The manuals at the above site are identical to the Helm manuals.
> >
> >
> > May I ask: How do you know?
> >
> > I ask because people online celebrate the Helm manuals as the best--very
> > detailed and very precise in their directions. Yet I do not find the UK
site's
> > manuals any more impressive than Chilton's.
> >
> > For example, the directions for the timing belt change on a 1991 Honda
Concerto
> > omit
> >
> > 1. Any mention of removal of the cruise control actuator (it's right above
the
> > side engine mount)
> > 2. Any mention of supporting the oil pan (and thus engine) prior to removing
the
> > side engine mount
> > 3. Any mention of restraining the crankshaft pulley when removing the
crankshaft
> > pulley bolt (which it calls the "special bolt").
> >
> > Aside: Thanks Krunch and Mista for your input.
> >
>
> hey caroline
>
> don't want to sound pedantic, but you have to make /some/ assumptions
> here - like whether the person doing the job has any experience.
> presumably, if they're doing a job like this, they do. knowing from
> experience that the engine needs support when removing a motor mount is
> in the same league as knowing which end of a wrench to hold. spelling
> out every rudimentary triviality is not very productive for someone that
> has basic shop skills.

Jim, I'm totally with you. With the Haynes manuals, the Chilton's manuals, and
the UK site's manuals, I am indeed accustomed to "reading between the lines"
somewhat to accomplish any maintenance repair job listed there. (If anything
seems way out of kilter, I cross-check manuals and/or ask here.)

> likewise, the crankshaft pulley bolt does not require restraint if
> you're using pneumatic tools - as almost /all/ shops will. restraint
> will only be necessary when re-torquing, and even then, it's not
> strictly necessary if using the correct torque bar on a pneumatic driver.

True, from what I hear. Good point.

> to get back to the point, the reason people recommend helm is because
> they sell the official manufacturer shop manuals. you pretty much
> /have/ to trust their information is correct.

Makes sense.

Thanks.

Caroline

"Kelsen" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote
> > Caroline wrote:
> >> "User" <user@domain.invalid> wrote
snip
> >>>>>source such as http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/workshopmanuals2.html.
snip
> > to get back to the point, the reason people recommend helm is because
> > they sell the official manufacturer shop manuals. you pretty much
> > /have/ to trust their information is correct.
>
> I don't think that a company making such an assumption would necessarily
> be wrong -- that said, Helm doesn't, as far as I can tell. I have the
> Helm manual for my 2001 Odyssey and my 2003 Accord, and if you have to
> take a single screw out to accomplish a task, it tells you.

Yes, that's the impression I was getting from Helm manual owners here.

> In most
> cases, it is a reference to another page that delineates the procedure
> for removing whatever has to be removed in order to get to removing the
> subject at hand. In my experience (so far) with these manuals, it's
> *all* in there, just as Caroline expects. That said, I also wonder if
> what she's seeing is in fact identical to the Helm manual, although the
> bit I looked at, the 'table of contents', so to speak, *did* look to be
> the same.

I see that the UK site's manuals likewise often refer to another page that
delineates a particular sub-procedure.

IIRC many of the UK site's manual pages say "Honda Motor Co." at the bottom.
Also, it sounds like people know or agree that Helm uses the actual
manufacturer's workshop pages, too.

At this point because of the UK site (which I use a lot), I think I'll skip
buying a Helm manual or CD but maybe will buy a hard copy of a Chilton's at
Ebay. (I have been borrowing Chiltons from the library for years as needed,
supplementing with online assistance.)

E. Meyer

On 5/23/04 2:11 PM, in article
9H6sc.7408$be.6782@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.ne t, "Caroline"
<caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:

> "Kelsen" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote
>>> Caroline wrote:
>>>> "User" <user@domain.invalid> wrote
> snip
>>>>>>> source such as http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/workshopmanuals2.html.
> snip
>>> to get back to the point, the reason people recommend helm is because
>>> they sell the official manufacturer shop manuals. you pretty much
>>> /have/ to trust their information is correct.
>>
>> I don't think that a company making such an assumption would necessarily
>> be wrong -- that said, Helm doesn't, as far as I can tell. I have the
>> Helm manual for my 2001 Odyssey and my 2003 Accord, and if you have to
>> take a single screw out to accomplish a task, it tells you.
>
> Yes, that's the impression I was getting from Helm manual owners here.
>
>> In most
>> cases, it is a reference to another page that delineates the procedure
>> for removing whatever has to be removed in order to get to removing the
>> subject at hand. In my experience (so far) with these manuals, it's
>> *all* in there, just as Caroline expects. That said, I also wonder if
>> what she's seeing is in fact identical to the Helm manual, although the
>> bit I looked at, the 'table of contents', so to speak, *did* look to be
>> the same.
>
> I see that the UK site's manuals likewise often refer to another page that
> delineates a particular sub-procedure.
>
> IIRC many of the UK site's manual pages say "Honda Motor Co." at the bottom.
> Also, it sounds like people know or agree that Helm uses the actual
> manufacturer's workshop pages, too.
>
> At this point because of the UK site (which I use a lot), I think I'll skip
> buying a Helm manual or CD but maybe will buy a hard copy of a Chilton's at
> Ebay. (I have been borrowing Chiltons from the library for years as needed,
> supplementing with online assistance.)
>
>
There seems to be some confusion as to what the "Helm" manual is. Helm does
not write manuals, they are the distributor in the US for the Honda Factory
Service manual. If the pages on the UK site say Honda Motor Co. on the
bottom of the pages, it is probably the same book.

Some years & models have better detail than others, but I have never found
more detail in the 3rd party manuals by Haynes or Chilton - always less.

Caroline

"E. Meyer" <e52.meyer0SPAM@ieee.org> wrote
C wrote
> > At this point because of the UK site (which I use a lot), I think I'll skip
> > buying a Helm manual or CD but maybe will buy a hard copy of a Chilton's at
> > Ebay. (I have been borrowing Chiltons from the library for years as needed,
> > supplementing with online assistance.)
> >
> >
> There seems to be some confusion as to what the "Helm" manual is. Helm does
> not write manuals, they are the distributor in the US for the Honda Factory
> Service manual. If the pages on the UK site say Honda Motor Co. on the
> bottom of the pages, it is probably the same book.
>
> Some years & models have better detail than others, but I have never found
> more detail in the 3rd party manuals by Haynes or Chilton - always less.

Okay. Thanks.

dold@HondaXHelm.usenet.us.com

User <user@domain.invalid> wrote:
> Caroline wrote:
>> > I think it's likely that the CDs available on Ebay are home made and
>> > that they were probably created using a website grabber such as
>> > HTTrack (http://tucows.tierranet.com/preview/193804.html) from a
>> > source such as http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/workshopmanuals2.html.
>>
>> But the above site has manuals that seem more like online Chilton's:
>> Good for a lot of repairs and maintenance (I use one often) but from my
>> understanding not nearly as detailed as the Helm manuals.

> The manuals at the above site are identical to the Helm manuals.

I would at first think that wasn't likely, but then I looked at what is
available at that site. Anything new?
Is it possible that the only manuals online are the ones that Helm no
longer distributes?


--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8-122.5

Al Reynolds

"Mista Bone" <mistab0ne@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:0u_rc.2589$y04.1286@fe1.columbus.rr.com...
> Likely they grabbed they mnauals from here........
>
> http://icelord.net/honda/repair/
>

Cheers for that link.

Anyone got an online source for the following manuals?
62SV400 - 94 Accord Manual
62SV420 - 95 Accord Supplement
62SV421 - 96 Accord Supplement
62SV221 - 95 Coupe/Wagon Supplement

Cheers if anyone can help,
Al