Dave D

"jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:Y8WdncQGrJ1blsrWnZ2dnUVZ_rednZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> On 01/19/2010 11:51 PM, Dave D wrote:
///snipped///
> actually, if you strip a frod down, their componentry is all about as
> cheap as the industry gets. if yours lasted 200k, it's because it's been
> lightly loaded, not because it's made of good materials or well designed.
> cast cranks, sintered connecting rods, nowhere near as good as the
> forgings in a honda.

Actually, sir, I was NOT addressing you. Reason? I would expect an imbecilic
response for which you are infamous. However, being as you stuck you big
nose in .... How the hell would you know, or have the slightest inkling, how
my truck was used. For you to state that it lasted 200k for its light use is
pure, unadulterated BullCrap...Of course, you are well known for that also.
BTW - you are totally wrong on all counts....As usual!!!!!!

DaveD

Dave D

"C. E. White" <cewhite3@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:hj783b$tiq$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> "jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:Y8WdncQGrJ1blsrWnZ2dnUVZ_rednZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>> actually, if you strip a frod down, their componentry is all about as
>> cheap as the industry gets. if yours lasted 200k, it's because it's been
>> lightly loaded, not because it's made of good materials or well designed.
>> cast cranks, sintered connecting rods, nowhere near as good as the
>> forgings in a honda.
>
> When was the last time you wore an engine out? Taxi cabs routine put well
> over 200,000 miles on the Ford engines with cast cranks and sintered metal
> connecting rods. In my opinion you are confusing good engineering with
> buzz word engineering. I like Honda's, they are decent well made cars, but
> using a forging where it has no practical value is buzz word engineering.
> The Japanese are very dedicated to this.
>
> My Sister has owned two Hondas. She was happy with both of them. Both
> suffered cosmetically (rust, fading paint, crummy plastic) but neither
> quit running or required excessive repairs while she owned them. She is
> very easy on cars (and I mean very easy) from an operational standpoint.
> Over the same time periods she owned Hondas, other members of my family
> owned Fords. In general the Fords were treated much rougher, particualrly
> the trucks (we have a farm). The Fords didn't need any more repairs than
> the Hondas, held up much bettter cosmetically and cost less. Of course
> they didn't have near the credibility with "cool" people that the Hondas
> have, but no one in my family really cares what "cool" people like. If you
> like a lot of buzz words, and don't mind paying extra so you can throw
> them out to impress your friends, then I suppose Honda's are a great
> choice. But I don't believe you are getting a better vehicle just becasue
> the ad copy sounds cool. If a Honda suits you needs, by all means buy one.
> They are decent cars and generally get good gas mielage. But you are
> fooling yourself if you think Hondas are made of especially good
> materials - I've seen the rust holes, oil leaks, faded paint, and
> crumbling plastic that says it ain't so.
>
> Ed
Amen!!!!
DaveD
>

jim beam

On 01/20/2010 11:12 PM, Dave D wrote:
> "jim beam"<me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:Y8WdncQGrJ1blsrWnZ2dnUVZ_rednZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>> On 01/19/2010 11:51 PM, Dave D wrote:
> ///snipped///
>> actually, if you strip a frod down, their componentry is all about as
>> cheap as the industry gets. if yours lasted 200k, it's because it's been
>> lightly loaded, not because it's made of good materials or well designed.
>> cast cranks, sintered connecting rods, nowhere near as good as the
>> forgings in a honda.
>
> Actually, sir, I was NOT addressing you. Reason? I would expect an imbecilic
> response for which you are infamous. However, being as you stuck you big
> nose in .... How the hell would you know, or have the slightest inkling, how
> my truck was used. For you to state that it lasted 200k for its light use is
> pure, unadulterated BullCrap...Of course, you are well known for that also.
> BTW - you are totally wrong on all counts....As usual!!!!!!
>
> DaveD
>
>

done much strip-down and testing then "dave"? i thought not.

C. E. White

"jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:EIadnb5DHcIXQsrWnZ2dnUVZ_jqdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> On 01/20/2010 07:31 AM, C. E. White wrote:
>> "jim beam"<me@privacy.net> wrote in message
>> news:Y8WdncQGrJ1blsrWnZ2dnUVZ_rednZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>
>>> actually, if you strip a frod down, their componentry is all about
>>> as cheap as the industry gets. if yours lasted 200k, it's because
>>> it's been lightly loaded, not because it's made of good materials
>>> or
>>> well designed. cast cranks, sintered connecting rods, nowhere
>>> near
>>> as good as the forgings in a honda.
>>
>> When was the last time you wore an engine out? Taxi cabs routine
>> put
>> well over 200,000 miles on the Ford engines with cast cranks and
>> sintered metal connecting rods. In my opinion you are confusing
>> good
>> engineering with buzz word engineering. I like Honda's, they are
>> decent well made cars, but using a forging where it has no
>> practical
>> value is buzz word engineering. The Japanese are very dedicated to
>> this.
>
> the difference is this - that frod taxi engine is utterly worn out
> at 200k.

And you know this becasue? My persoanl experience is that my Sister's
Honda was using significant amounts of oil after 60k miles, my 5.4L V8
never used any oil during the 150,000 miles I owned it. At 150k miles
the fuel economy was unchanged, it ran just like it did when new. I
have no reason to believe it isn't still out there somewhere running
just fine. I belong to a Email group for Ford Expeditions. Numerous
members have over 300,000 miles on their engines. No one has reported
any sort of failure that could be attributed to poor materials.

> pretty crappy for a honking great v8 that's running at maybe 10% of
> rated output on average and with very little cold start cycling.
> for a honda engine, provided it's not maintained by a retard, 200k
> is nowhere near end of life. when i had the head off the burned
> valve motor a few weeks ago, there was zero ring lip on the cylinder
> wall after 212k miles. i've never seen that on a frod. or any
> other domestic come to that.

To be honest, I hear stories like this all the time from Toyota and
Honda owners. My response is, if the engiens are so great, why do you
have the heads off? I've never had to take the head off one of my
Fords. We did have the heads off my SO's Chrysler minivan (burned
valve) and her cyclinder walls were just as perfect as you are
claiming for a Honda (it had around 150k miles). I am also curious how
this plays into your complains about Ford using cast cranks and
sintered rods...neither of these is related to cylinder bore wear.

> now, as to the difference between cast, sintered and forged, these
> are not "buzzwords". for fatigue, i.e. if you want maximum
> performance from the lightest weight, there is nothing to beat a
> forging. it is denser, more homogeneous, and has the added benefit
> of aligning grain structure with the loading axes.

None of this is necessarily true. Cast cranks have been around for
decades. The process is well know and there are advantages to using
cast cranks over forgings including cost. While forging may have a
theoretical advantage in terms of fatique life, this is irrelevant for
most passenger cars. When was the last time you heard of crank failing
due to fatique in a street vehicle? Ditto for rods. On the other hand
cast cranks are often lighter that forged cranks, can have superior
vibration damping, more complex geometry, etc. Engineers who design
for maximum buzz often overlook the best solution. People who buy
based on buzz words often spend too much. Oh, and Honda has used cast
cranks at times....imagine that.

> castings and sinterings cannot do that. because they less dense,
> they are less fatigue resistant weight for weight, and bearing
> surfaces cannot be as smooth or hard.

None of this is necessarily true. You can have lousy forged cranks and
great cast cranks.

> bottom line, they work, and if not run hard, they can last a fair
> time, but under heavy load or for longest durability, castings
> cannot match forgings.

Again, when was the last time you actually saw an engine fail due to a
broken crank or rod. I never have, altough my Father once had a car
that threw a rod - 65 years ago.

> one more thing: in order to keep loading to a level where fatigue is
> not an issue on castings, you have to make everything bigger.
> bigger is heavier. heavier means lower fuel efficiency. again,
> forgings are the way to go.

One of the reason given for Ford using sintered rods is that they are
lighter and stronger than forged rods. I cannot prove this is true. I
doubt you could prove it isn't. There is a lot of advertising copy on
the subject...

http://www.mpif.org/designcenter/Conrod.pdf
http://www.metaldyne.com/metaldyne/s...ectingRod.aspx
http://www.superchevy.com/technical/...rds/index.html

One more thing....Honda is using sintered metal rods too....

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-87375938.html

But I suppose Honda is using super special sintered steel rods amde
from unubtanium and kissed by the gods.....

Ed

Tegger

"C. E. White" <cewhite3@mindspring.com> wrote in
news:hjcb46$f2i$1@news.eternal-september.org:

> People who buy based on buzz words often spend too much.



Or buy inferior equipment. Such as rear disc brakes on a road-going FWD
passenger vehicle.



> Oh, and Honda has used cast cranks at times....imagine that.



I do believe my Honda has a cast crank.



>
> Again, when was the last time you actually saw an engine fail due to a
> broken crank or rod. I never have, altough my Father once had a car
> that threw a rod - 65 years ago.



I've seen (Honda) cast camshafts broken in half, but that was attributed to
oil starvation.

A girl I used to work with had a '70s Camaro that threw a rod. She admitted
(years later, out of earshot of her father) to heavily overrevving it.



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Dillon Pyron

Thus spake "Steven L." <sdlitvin@earthlink.net> :

>In 1995, I bought a brand-new 1995 Honda Civic.
>I still own it.
>I've got 88,000 miles on it.
>And it's still running great.
>
>How long can one of these puppies last, before something catastrophic
>happens, like the engine dies for good or the suspension collapses for
>good?

I sold my 96 in 08, mostly because I wanted a Fit. ~ 90K on it, the
only major service was the timing belt, mostly because if the sucker
fails, catasrophic is the corredt word, and the "recommended" is 90K
or 7 years. That's not one of those "oh, I think it can go another
year, it doesn't look bad after 12 years".

Saw the car about 3 weeks ago. Still looks and runs great.

One mod to it that had nothing to do with any of your concerns. I put
some Tokico adjustable struts on it. But I also had some RS1s that
would go on the car twice a month.

"... never raced. Slicks also available"


>
>
>--
--

- dillon I am not invalid

I love my country, It's my government I fear.

Hey, turnabout's fair play.

jim beam

On 01/22/2010 06:22 AM, Tegger wrote:
> "C. E. White"<cewhite3@mindspring.com> wrote in
> news:hjcb46$f2i$1@news.eternal-september.org:
>
>> People who buy based on buzz words often spend too much.
>
>
>
> Or buy inferior equipment. Such as rear disc brakes on a road-going FWD
> passenger vehicle.

disks are more linear. in that respect, they work better. they may not
be as practical for a low usage environment needing non-hydraulic
actuation, but their mechanical function is better. that's why we're
now seeing the [sensible] transition to the disk/drum solution. a
combined disk/drum uses the drum element for the non-hydraulics, and
disk for the normal service use.


>
>
>
>> Oh, and Honda has used cast cranks at times....imagine that.
>
>
>
> I do believe my Honda has a cast crank.

nope, it's forged.
http://www.team-integra.net/forum/di...g+Common+Topic


>
>
>
>>
>> Again, when was the last time you actually saw an engine fail due to a
>> broken crank or rod. I never have, altough my Father once had a car
>> that threw a rod - 65 years ago.
>
>
>
> I've seen (Honda) cast camshafts broken in half, but that was attributed to
> oil starvation.

they usually break because of fatigue - if wrecked bearings were
witnessed, they're more likely to be the symptoms /of/ the breakage, not
to have /caused/ the breakage.


>
> A girl I used to work with had a '70s Camaro that threw a rod. She admitted
> (years later, out of earshot of her father) to heavily overrevving it.
>
>
>

jim beam

On 01/22/2010 05:53 AM, C. E. White wrote:
> "jim beam"<me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:EIadnb5DHcIXQsrWnZ2dnUVZ_jqdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>> On 01/20/2010 07:31 AM, C. E. White wrote:
>>> "jim beam"<me@privacy.net> wrote in message
>>> news:Y8WdncQGrJ1blsrWnZ2dnUVZ_rednZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>>
>>>> actually, if you strip a frod down, their componentry is all about
>>>> as cheap as the industry gets. if yours lasted 200k, it's because
>>>> it's been lightly loaded, not because it's made of good materials
>>>> or
>>>> well designed. cast cranks, sintered connecting rods, nowhere
>>>> near
>>>> as good as the forgings in a honda.
>>>
>>> When was the last time you wore an engine out? Taxi cabs routine
>>> put
>>> well over 200,000 miles on the Ford engines with cast cranks and
>>> sintered metal connecting rods. In my opinion you are confusing
>>> good
>>> engineering with buzz word engineering. I like Honda's, they are
>>> decent well made cars, but using a forging where it has no
>>> practical
>>> value is buzz word engineering. The Japanese are very dedicated to
>>> this.
>>
>> the difference is this - that frod taxi engine is utterly worn out
>> at 200k.
>
> And you know this becasue?

because i've worked on these things?


> My persoanl experience is that my Sister's
> Honda was using significant amounts of oil after 60k miles,

"significant amounts"? three thimble-fulls?


> my 5.4L V8
> never used any oil during the 150,000 miles I owned it.

so you say. my 182k mile honda uses somewhere between 1 - 1.5 quarts
every 10k. what's your point? when i had the head gasket off, there
was no wear lip, you you can't say it's because my engine was worn.


> At 150k miles
> the fuel economy was unchanged, it ran just like it did when new. I
> have no reason to believe it isn't still out there somewhere running
> just fine. I belong to a Email group for Ford Expeditions. Numerous
> members have over 300,000 miles on their engines. No one has reported
> any sort of failure that could be attributed to poor materials.

how many hondas fail because of "poor materials"??? i can /show/ you
poor materials in a frod - simply go to a junkyard and look at the
garbage with broken cranks, thrown rods, worn cams, etc.


>
>> pretty crappy for a honking great v8 that's running at maybe 10% of
>> rated output on average and with very little cold start cycling.
>> for a honda engine, provided it's not maintained by a retard, 200k
>> is nowhere near end of life. when i had the head off the burned
>> valve motor a few weeks ago, there was zero ring lip on the cylinder
>> wall after 212k miles. i've never seen that on a frod. or any
>> other domestic come to that.
>
> To be honest, I hear stories like this all the time from Toyota and
> Honda owners. My response is, if the engiens are so great, why do you
> have the heads off?

one came off because a prior owner had the radiator shrouds removed, and
this affects cooling airflow. consequently, i boiled the motor one day
in 110+F heading up one of those long fast grades uphill on the way to
las vegas. after that, the head started to leak, slowly, and 1 year
later, i changed it.

another i replaced because of an oil leak. and another because of a
burnt valve. none are bullshit failures like you see in frods where the
inter-cylinder lands are burned, or the heads have cracked, or the
torque-to-yield head bolts have given way.


> I've never had to take the head off one of my
> Fords.

so you've never gotten to see how bad that wear lip is!


> We did have the heads off my SO's Chrysler minivan (burned
> valve) and her cyclinder walls were just as perfect as you are
> claiming for a Honda (it had around 150k miles). I am also curious how
> this plays into your complains about Ford using cast cranks and
> sintered rods...neither of these is related to cylinder bore wear.

cast cranks aren't cylinder bore wear, but they are absolutely the
layman's window on materials quality. bores wear when the material is
soft. if the bores are wearing, then you know all the other stuff is
poor quality too.


>
>> now, as to the difference between cast, sintered and forged, these
>> are not "buzzwords". for fatigue, i.e. if you want maximum
>> performance from the lightest weight, there is nothing to beat a
>> forging. it is denser, more homogeneous, and has the added benefit
>> of aligning grain structure with the loading axes.
>
> None of this is necessarily true.

it is all absolutely true. if you don't want to take my word for it,
read stuff like this.

http://www.jobshop.com/techinfo/pape...inggrain.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forging

for the wikipedia, you need to go to high res - then you'll see the
macro grain structure flow lines that forging imparts. casting doesn't
have and cannot create that.


> Cast cranks have been around for
> decades. The process is well know and there are advantages to using
> cast cranks over forgings including cost.

for cranks, the /only/ advantage is cost. it is not material quality -
for the reasons stated.


> While forging may have a
> theoretical advantage in terms of fatique life, this is irrelevant for
> most passenger cars. When was the last time you heard of crank failing
> due to fatique in a street vehicle? Ditto for rods.

then you need to go get some experience. go to a junk yard and look at
the disassembled motors. then you'll see broken cranks, and you'll
understand why this is an important issue from a materials perspective.
you should care about the pocketbook perspective too - cast cranks
weigh more and thus cost you more gas.


> On the other hand
> cast cranks are often lighter that forged cranks,

that's complete bullshit. fact: for the same fatigue strength, they
need to be heavier. castings contain their own fatigue initiation
defects - by definition. you have to "over-design" ["over-weight"] to
keep fatigue at bay.


> can have superior
> vibration damping, more complex geometry, etc.

gray irons have "superior" vibration damping, but there are many
different types of cast irons. the ones used for cranks are "s.g." or
"nodular". damping really isn't a feature.


> Engineers who design
> for maximum buzz often overlook the best solution.

"often overlook the best solution"??? you're trying to be humorous,
right?


> People who buy
> based on buzz words often spend too much.

who is buying based on buzz words? i bought my honda based on
experience. it came with a forged crank because that's the way the
honda engineers designed it and it was sold - it's not like it was a
dealer option!


> Oh, and Honda has used cast
> cranks at times....imagine that.

"at times"? it's a dealer option??? you need to cite your source for
that little nugget.


>
>> castings and sinterings cannot do that. because they less dense,
>> they are less fatigue resistant weight for weight, and bearing
>> surfaces cannot be as smooth or hard.
>
> None of this is necessarily true. You can have lousy forged cranks and
> great cast cranks.

it's all absolutely true. but i guess your mind is already made up to
the contrary - no chance of learning something you didn't know.


>
>> bottom line, they work, and if not run hard, they can last a fair
>> time, but under heavy load or for longest durability, castings
>> cannot match forgings.
>
> Again, when was the last time you actually saw an engine fail due to a
> broken crank or rod. I never have, altough my Father once had a car
> that threw a rod - 65 years ago.

so you've driven a few cars and they haven't failed. well, so have i.
but unlike you, i've been involved with failure analysis, and also love
to surf junk yards. you'll see broken cranks on a regular basis if you
seek out this kind of experience, and then you'll understand what i'm
saying better.


>
>> one more thing: in order to keep loading to a level where fatigue is
>> not an issue on castings, you have to make everything bigger.
>> bigger is heavier. heavier means lower fuel efficiency. again,
>> forgings are the way to go.
>
> One of the reason given for Ford using sintered rods is that they are
> lighter and stronger than forged rods.

lighter, yes. stronger, no - that's a fundamental impossibility.


> I cannot prove this is true.

of course - because it's not!


> I
> doubt you could prove it isn't.

don't doubt - absolutely i can prove it. you can prove it to yourself
too if you want. go to a junkyard, get samples of each type, then do
fatigue testing.


> There is a lot of advertising copy on
> the subject...
>
> http://www.mpif.org/designcenter/Conrod.pdf
> http://www.metaldyne.com/metaldyne/s...ectingRod.aspx
> http://www.superchevy.com/technical/...rds/index.html
>
> One more thing....Honda is using sintered metal rods too....
>
> http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-87375938.html

so? sintering = cheap. honda have been all about cheap in recent years
- that's why they swapped to macpherson strut suspension too. that's
what happens when you have a company run by bean counters. it still
doesn't negate the material property differences.


>
> But I suppose Honda is using super special sintered steel rods amde
> from unubtanium and kissed by the gods.....

that's it - mock what you don't know. do you have a pitchfork and burn
witches also?

aemeijers

Dave Garrett wrote:
> In article <elmop-E7B757.18472818012010@news.eternal-september.org>,
> elmop@nastydesigns.com says...
>> In article <8nq9l5ppv991hqnic2akh8vriseruk185b@4ax.com>,
>> Dick G <biteme@dick.com> wrote:
>>
>>> To the OP, Honda engines are a
>>> remarkable piece of work.
>> correction: Honda four-bangers are a remarkable piece of work. Jewels,
>> actually.
>>
>> The sixes...eh.
>
> A local dealer has this Accord on display in their showroom:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/2536233...21952/sizes/o/
>
> which should lay to rest any doubts about the longevity of Accord fours
> with 5-speeds. I had to wonder just what the owner did for a living to
> accumulate that kind of mileage in only ten years.
>
> Anyone know what the highest-mileage Honda on record is?
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
And it is prettier than the 2 body generations that came after it, to
boot! (I'm not a fan of big butts, high beltlines, and weirdly shaped
C-pillars...)

--
aem sends...