It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

There are lots of great statistics at the Government CAFE web site.
Lots of compiled data on cars going back to 1977 (and some even
older.) One interesting trend tracked is the percentage of
automobiles with automatic transmissions.

In 1977, 84.1% of all new cars had AT. Under pressure of demands for
improved fuel economy and increasing consumer preference for import
cars, that number dropped to 75.0% in 1987. Then imports went
upscale, ATs became more sophisticated and fuel got cheap. By 2002,
88.5% of new cars had only two pedals and the imminent demise of the
manual transmission was widely predicted.

Then something funny happened. There were rumors of rebellion in the
ranks and increased reports of drivers demanding control of the gear
ratios. In 2003, the percentage of cars sold with automatics dropped
precipitously to 82.4%. The CAFE site is now reporting a further drop
in 2004 with the lowest percentage of AT's since 1991, 79.6%. That
means that the number of cars sold with manual transmissions increased
77% in only two years and a clutch is now found in one of every five
new cars.

In terms of sales, this trend actually surpasses the much touted
return of rear wheel drive and the movement is broad based. While
keeping in mind that the politics of fuel economy can skew the
definitions pretty badly, the trend is apparent in domestics, Asian
and European imports. All are selling manual transmissions at levels
that haven't been seen in a decade. Almost half of all European cars
are now shifters, the highest rate since 1988.

Will this be a long lasting trend or a brief flash? It is still too
early to tell but it certainly shows that the old MT is going to be
harder to kill than it once appeared. The auto companies have now
learned that there is a solid base of buyers who prefer to shift for
themselves and the increased availability of this option is sure to
follow.


http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...erCarFleet.htm

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In article <n1n6415e4ld5568b02dss1lue7vccg1us2@4ax.com>,
gRmEcMgOrVeEw@mindspring.com (Gordon McGrew) wrote:

> There are lots of great statistics at the Government CAFE web site.
> Lots of compiled data on cars going back to 1977 (and some even
> older.) One interesting trend tracked is the percentage of
> automobiles with automatic transmissions.
>
> In 1977, 84.1% of all new cars had AT. Under pressure of demands for
> improved fuel economy and increasing consumer preference for import
> cars, that number dropped to 75.0% in 1987. Then imports went
> upscale, ATs became more sophisticated and fuel got cheap. By 2002,
> 88.5% of new cars had only two pedals and the imminent demise of the
> manual transmission was widely predicted.
>
> Then something funny happened. There were rumors of rebellion in the
> ranks and increased reports of drivers demanding control of the gear
> ratios. In 2003, the percentage of cars sold with automatics dropped
> precipitously to 82.4%. The CAFE site is now reporting a further drop
> in 2004 with the lowest percentage of AT's since 1991, 79.6%. That
> means that the number of cars sold with manual transmissions increased
> 77% in only two years and a clutch is now found in one of every five
> new cars.
>
> In terms of sales, this trend actually surpasses the much touted
> return of rear wheel drive and the movement is broad based. While
> keeping in mind that the politics of fuel economy can skew the
> definitions pretty badly, the trend is apparent in domestics, Asian
> and European imports. All are selling manual transmissions at levels
> that haven't been seen in a decade. Almost half of all European cars
> are now shifters, the highest rate since 1988.
>
> Will this be a long lasting trend or a brief flash? It is still too
> early to tell but it certainly shows that the old MT is going to be
> harder to kill than it once appeared. The auto companies have now
> learned that there is a solid base of buyers who prefer to shift for
> themselves and the increased availability of this option is sure to
> follow.
>
>
> http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...erCarFleet.htm

On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT. It's
kind of a bummer because I like responsiveness of manuals but the
milage*power level is falling behind some automatics. Regenerative
braking, continuous gear ratios, ultra-lean burn, and cylinder bypassing
need to be coordinated with an AT. The decision was much more clear-cut
a few years ago when you chose between a peppy 5-speed manual or a
sluggish 3-speed automatic. Now cars like the Accord Hybrid make the
decision tough.

If we get fuel cells in marketable condition there may not be multiple
gears anymore. You'll just have a knob to select how much regenerative
braking you want when you take your foot off the throttle. Crank up
regenerative braking and you'd have lightning fast response to throttle
changes.

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In article <n1n6415e4ld5568b02dss1lue7vccg1us2@4ax.com>,
gRmEcMgOrVeEw@mindspring.com (Gordon McGrew) wrote:

> There are lots of great statistics at the Government CAFE web site.
> Lots of compiled data on cars going back to 1977 (and some even
> older.) One interesting trend tracked is the percentage of
> automobiles with automatic transmissions.
>
> In 1977, 84.1% of all new cars had AT. Under pressure of demands for
> improved fuel economy and increasing consumer preference for import
> cars, that number dropped to 75.0% in 1987. Then imports went
> upscale, ATs became more sophisticated and fuel got cheap. By 2002,
> 88.5% of new cars had only two pedals and the imminent demise of the
> manual transmission was widely predicted.
>
> Then something funny happened. There were rumors of rebellion in the
> ranks and increased reports of drivers demanding control of the gear
> ratios. In 2003, the percentage of cars sold with automatics dropped
> precipitously to 82.4%. The CAFE site is now reporting a further drop
> in 2004 with the lowest percentage of AT's since 1991, 79.6%. That
> means that the number of cars sold with manual transmissions increased
> 77% in only two years and a clutch is now found in one of every five
> new cars.
>
> In terms of sales, this trend actually surpasses the much touted
> return of rear wheel drive and the movement is broad based. While
> keeping in mind that the politics of fuel economy can skew the
> definitions pretty badly, the trend is apparent in domestics, Asian
> and European imports. All are selling manual transmissions at levels
> that haven't been seen in a decade. Almost half of all European cars
> are now shifters, the highest rate since 1988.
>
> Will this be a long lasting trend or a brief flash? It is still too
> early to tell but it certainly shows that the old MT is going to be
> harder to kill than it once appeared. The auto companies have now
> learned that there is a solid base of buyers who prefer to shift for
> themselves and the increased availability of this option is sure to
> follow.
>
>
> http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...erCarFleet.htm

On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT. It's
kind of a bummer because I like responsiveness of manuals but the
milage*power level is falling behind some automatics. Regenerative
braking, continuous gear ratios, ultra-lean burn, and cylinder bypassing
need to be coordinated with an AT. The decision was much more clear-cut
a few years ago when you chose between a peppy 5-speed manual or a
sluggish 3-speed automatic. Now cars like the Accord Hybrid make the
decision tough.

If we get fuel cells in marketable condition there may not be multiple
gears anymore. You'll just have a knob to select how much regenerative
braking you want when you take your foot off the throttle. Crank up
regenerative braking and you'd have lightning fast response to throttle
changes.

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:05:51 -0800, Kevin McMurtrie
<mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote:

>In article <n1n6415e4ld5568b02dss1lue7vccg1us2@4ax.com>,
> gRmEcMgOrVeEw@mindspring.com (Gordon McGrew) wrote:
>
>> There are lots of great statistics at the Government CAFE web site.
>> Lots of compiled data on cars going back to 1977 (and some even
>> older.) One interesting trend tracked is the percentage of
>> automobiles with automatic transmissions.
>>
>> In 1977, 84.1% of all new cars had AT. Under pressure of demands for
>> improved fuel economy and increasing consumer preference for import
>> cars, that number dropped to 75.0% in 1987. Then imports went
>> upscale, ATs became more sophisticated and fuel got cheap. By 2002,
>> 88.5% of new cars had only two pedals and the imminent demise of the
>> manual transmission was widely predicted.
>>
>> Then something funny happened. There were rumors of rebellion in the
>> ranks and increased reports of drivers demanding control of the gear
>> ratios. In 2003, the percentage of cars sold with automatics dropped
>> precipitously to 82.4%. The CAFE site is now reporting a further drop
>> in 2004 with the lowest percentage of AT's since 1991, 79.6%. That
>> means that the number of cars sold with manual transmissions increased
>> 77% in only two years and a clutch is now found in one of every five
>> new cars.
>>
>> In terms of sales, this trend actually surpasses the much touted
>> return of rear wheel drive and the movement is broad based. While
>> keeping in mind that the politics of fuel economy can skew the
>> definitions pretty badly, the trend is apparent in domestics, Asian
>> and European imports. All are selling manual transmissions at levels
>> that haven't been seen in a decade. Almost half of all European cars
>> are now shifters, the highest rate since 1988.
>>
>> Will this be a long lasting trend or a brief flash? It is still too
>> early to tell but it certainly shows that the old MT is going to be
>> harder to kill than it once appeared. The auto companies have now
>> learned that there is a solid base of buyers who prefer to shift for
>> themselves and the increased availability of this option is sure to
>> follow.
>>
>>
>> http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...erCarFleet.htm
>
>On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT.

Sure you can. Both the Civic and Insight hybrid models are available
with MT. Accord hybrid comes only with AT for now, but you can get an
MT on your V6 Accord now so it isn't implausible that the hybrid may
get it eventually.


> It's
>kind of a bummer because I like responsiveness of manuals but the
>milage*power level is falling behind some automatics. Regenerative
>braking, continuous gear ratios, ultra-lean burn, and cylinder bypassing
>need to be coordinated with an AT. The decision was much more clear-cut
>a few years ago when you chose between a peppy 5-speed manual or a
>sluggish 3-speed automatic. Now cars like the Accord Hybrid make the
>decision tough.
>
>If we get fuel cells in marketable condition there may not be multiple
>gears anymore. You'll just have a knob to select how much regenerative
>braking you want when you take your foot off the throttle. Crank up
>regenerative braking and you'd have lightning fast response to throttle
>changes.

I think that it will be a long time before fuel cell cars are any more
than a curiosity.

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:05:51 -0800, Kevin McMurtrie
<mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote:

>In article <n1n6415e4ld5568b02dss1lue7vccg1us2@4ax.com>,
> gRmEcMgOrVeEw@mindspring.com (Gordon McGrew) wrote:
>
>> There are lots of great statistics at the Government CAFE web site.
>> Lots of compiled data on cars going back to 1977 (and some even
>> older.) One interesting trend tracked is the percentage of
>> automobiles with automatic transmissions.
>>
>> In 1977, 84.1% of all new cars had AT. Under pressure of demands for
>> improved fuel economy and increasing consumer preference for import
>> cars, that number dropped to 75.0% in 1987. Then imports went
>> upscale, ATs became more sophisticated and fuel got cheap. By 2002,
>> 88.5% of new cars had only two pedals and the imminent demise of the
>> manual transmission was widely predicted.
>>
>> Then something funny happened. There were rumors of rebellion in the
>> ranks and increased reports of drivers demanding control of the gear
>> ratios. In 2003, the percentage of cars sold with automatics dropped
>> precipitously to 82.4%. The CAFE site is now reporting a further drop
>> in 2004 with the lowest percentage of AT's since 1991, 79.6%. That
>> means that the number of cars sold with manual transmissions increased
>> 77% in only two years and a clutch is now found in one of every five
>> new cars.
>>
>> In terms of sales, this trend actually surpasses the much touted
>> return of rear wheel drive and the movement is broad based. While
>> keeping in mind that the politics of fuel economy can skew the
>> definitions pretty badly, the trend is apparent in domestics, Asian
>> and European imports. All are selling manual transmissions at levels
>> that haven't been seen in a decade. Almost half of all European cars
>> are now shifters, the highest rate since 1988.
>>
>> Will this be a long lasting trend or a brief flash? It is still too
>> early to tell but it certainly shows that the old MT is going to be
>> harder to kill than it once appeared. The auto companies have now
>> learned that there is a solid base of buyers who prefer to shift for
>> themselves and the increased availability of this option is sure to
>> follow.
>>
>>
>> http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...erCarFleet.htm
>
>On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT.

Sure you can. Both the Civic and Insight hybrid models are available
with MT. Accord hybrid comes only with AT for now, but you can get an
MT on your V6 Accord now so it isn't implausible that the hybrid may
get it eventually.


> It's
>kind of a bummer because I like responsiveness of manuals but the
>milage*power level is falling behind some automatics. Regenerative
>braking, continuous gear ratios, ultra-lean burn, and cylinder bypassing
>need to be coordinated with an AT. The decision was much more clear-cut
>a few years ago when you chose between a peppy 5-speed manual or a
>sluggish 3-speed automatic. Now cars like the Accord Hybrid make the
>decision tough.
>
>If we get fuel cells in marketable condition there may not be multiple
>gears anymore. You'll just have a knob to select how much regenerative
>braking you want when you take your foot off the throttle. Crank up
>regenerative braking and you'd have lightning fast response to throttle
>changes.

I think that it will be a long time before fuel cell cars are any more
than a curiosity.

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

"Gordon McGrew" <gRmEcMgOrVeEw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:n1n6415e4ld5568b02dss1lue7vccg1us2@4ax.com...
>
>
> There are lots of great statistics at the Government CAFE web site.
> Lots of compiled data on cars going back to 1977 (and some even
> older.) One interesting trend tracked is the percentage of
> automobiles with automatic transmissions.
>
> In 1977, 84.1% of all new cars had AT. Under pressure of demands for
> improved fuel economy and increasing consumer preference for import
> cars, that number dropped to 75.0% in 1987. Then imports went
> upscale, ATs became more sophisticated and fuel got cheap. By 2002,
> 88.5% of new cars had only two pedals and the imminent demise of the
> manual transmission was widely predicted.
>
> Then something funny happened. There were rumors of rebellion in the
> ranks and increased reports of drivers demanding control of the gear
> ratios. In 2003, the percentage of cars sold with automatics dropped
> precipitously to 82.4%. The CAFE site is now reporting a further drop
> in 2004 with the lowest percentage of AT's since 1991, 79.6%. That
> means that the number of cars sold with manual transmissions increased
> 77% in only two years and a clutch is now found in one of every five
> new cars.
>
> In terms of sales, this trend actually surpasses the much touted
> return of rear wheel drive and the movement is broad based. While
> keeping in mind that the politics of fuel economy can skew the
> definitions pretty badly, the trend is apparent in domestics, Asian
> and European imports. All are selling manual transmissions at levels
> that haven't been seen in a decade. Almost half of all European cars
> are now shifters, the highest rate since 1988.
>
> Will this be a long lasting trend or a brief flash? It is still too
> early to tell but it certainly shows that the old MT is going to be
> harder to kill than it once appeared. The auto companies have now
> learned that there is a solid base of buyers who prefer to shift for
> themselves and the increased availability of this option is sure to
> follow.
>
>
> http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...erCarFleet.htm
>
>
Well, now the trend is to have both manual and auto trannies on the same car
which is called million different names such as autostick, tiptronic,
easytronic, multimod manual, activeselect or whatever... and all range of
cars started to have this kind of transmission.. from cheap econobox such as
Toyota Yaris 1.0 liter to expensive cars like MB and BMW. I just bought a
1.2 liter Opel Corsa with Easytronic transmission. It has 5 forward gears
and you can shift the gears manualy if you want and it gets considerably
better gas mielage compared to the same car with stick shift (6.8 liters /
100 kms in city versus 7.8 liters / 100 kms in city driving).

Ahmet

Turkey

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

"Gordon McGrew" <gRmEcMgOrVeEw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:n1n6415e4ld5568b02dss1lue7vccg1us2@4ax.com...
>
>
> There are lots of great statistics at the Government CAFE web site.
> Lots of compiled data on cars going back to 1977 (and some even
> older.) One interesting trend tracked is the percentage of
> automobiles with automatic transmissions.
>
> In 1977, 84.1% of all new cars had AT. Under pressure of demands for
> improved fuel economy and increasing consumer preference for import
> cars, that number dropped to 75.0% in 1987. Then imports went
> upscale, ATs became more sophisticated and fuel got cheap. By 2002,
> 88.5% of new cars had only two pedals and the imminent demise of the
> manual transmission was widely predicted.
>
> Then something funny happened. There were rumors of rebellion in the
> ranks and increased reports of drivers demanding control of the gear
> ratios. In 2003, the percentage of cars sold with automatics dropped
> precipitously to 82.4%. The CAFE site is now reporting a further drop
> in 2004 with the lowest percentage of AT's since 1991, 79.6%. That
> means that the number of cars sold with manual transmissions increased
> 77% in only two years and a clutch is now found in one of every five
> new cars.
>
> In terms of sales, this trend actually surpasses the much touted
> return of rear wheel drive and the movement is broad based. While
> keeping in mind that the politics of fuel economy can skew the
> definitions pretty badly, the trend is apparent in domestics, Asian
> and European imports. All are selling manual transmissions at levels
> that haven't been seen in a decade. Almost half of all European cars
> are now shifters, the highest rate since 1988.
>
> Will this be a long lasting trend or a brief flash? It is still too
> early to tell but it certainly shows that the old MT is going to be
> harder to kill than it once appeared. The auto companies have now
> learned that there is a solid base of buyers who prefer to shift for
> themselves and the increased availability of this option is sure to
> follow.
>
>
> http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...erCarFleet.htm
>
>
Well, now the trend is to have both manual and auto trannies on the same car
which is called million different names such as autostick, tiptronic,
easytronic, multimod manual, activeselect or whatever... and all range of
cars started to have this kind of transmission.. from cheap econobox such as
Toyota Yaris 1.0 liter to expensive cars like MB and BMW. I just bought a
1.2 liter Opel Corsa with Easytronic transmission. It has 5 forward gears
and you can shift the gears manualy if you want and it gets considerably
better gas mielage compared to the same car with stick shift (6.8 liters /
100 kms in city versus 7.8 liters / 100 kms in city driving).

Ahmet

Turkey

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

> >
> Well, now the trend is to have both manual and auto trannies on the same
car
> which is called million different names such as autostick, tiptronic,
> easytronic, multimod manual, activeselect or whatever...

of course, i didn't mean that these cars have 2 transmissions...just one
with with the capabilities of both both manual and auto transmission...

ahmet

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

> >
> Well, now the trend is to have both manual and auto trannies on the same
car
> which is called million different names such as autostick, tiptronic,
> easytronic, multimod manual, activeselect or whatever...

of course, i didn't mean that these cars have 2 transmissions...just one
with with the capabilities of both both manual and auto transmission...

ahmet

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In article <mcmurtri-3CBC1E.22055124032005@corp-radius.supernews.com>,
Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT.

shhhhhhh......don't tell Honda, who sells them by the boatload with
manual transmissions.....

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In article <mcmurtri-3CBC1E.22055124032005@corp-radius.supernews.com>,
Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT.

shhhhhhh......don't tell Honda, who sells them by the boatload with
manual transmissions.....

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In article <4243de3a_4@x-privat.org>, "dragon" <dondragon38@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> Well, now the trend is to have both manual and auto trannies on the same
>car
>> which is called million different names such as autostick, tiptronic,
>> easytronic, multimod manual, activeselect or whatever...
>
>of course, i didn't mean that these cars have 2 transmissions...just one
>with with the capabilities of both both manual and auto transmission...

Yes, I wonder how they (NHTSA) are defining "manual". Some of the
ones you listed are typical torque converter ("slushboxes") where
they just add a manual shifting mode. Others have actual manual
trannies, just with an electronic clutch, ex: BMW's SMG. I
believe your "Easytronic" is the latter?

I wonder how many folk who buy the tiptronic type actually
manually shift. When I've driven those, I get tired of the
novelty in the first drive and just end out driving them like
every other automatic.

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In article <4243de3a_4@x-privat.org>, "dragon" <dondragon38@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> Well, now the trend is to have both manual and auto trannies on the same
>car
>> which is called million different names such as autostick, tiptronic,
>> easytronic, multimod manual, activeselect or whatever...
>
>of course, i didn't mean that these cars have 2 transmissions...just one
>with with the capabilities of both both manual and auto transmission...

Yes, I wonder how they (NHTSA) are defining "manual". Some of the
ones you listed are typical torque converter ("slushboxes") where
they just add a manual shifting mode. Others have actual manual
trannies, just with an electronic clutch, ex: BMW's SMG. I
believe your "Easytronic" is the latter?

I wonder how many folk who buy the tiptronic type actually
manually shift. When I've driven those, I get tired of the
novelty in the first drive and just end out driving them like
every other automatic.

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-3FC07B.06460725032005@text.usenetserver.com...
> In article <mcmurtri-3CBC1E.22055124032005@corp-radius.supernews.com>,
> Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT.
>
> shhhhhhh......don't tell Honda, who sells them by the boatload with
> manual transmissions.....
>
It's the Toyota system as used in the Prius and Ford Escape that can't have
a manual; in fact, it can't have any transmission at all. It has an
"electronic cvt" that is really just a pair of motor/generators in a
differential arrangement with the gas engine... there is no place to put a
transmission in the power train. If it were called a "virtual cvt" it would
be less confusing.

Honda's IMA (integrated motor assist) works fine with a manual; Toyotas SHS
(synergy hybrid system) could never have one, if only because the driver has
no control over whether the engine is even running.

Mike

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-3FC07B.06460725032005@text.usenetserver.com...
> In article <mcmurtri-3CBC1E.22055124032005@corp-radius.supernews.com>,
> Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT.
>
> shhhhhhh......don't tell Honda, who sells them by the boatload with
> manual transmissions.....
>
It's the Toyota system as used in the Prius and Ford Escape that can't have
a manual; in fact, it can't have any transmission at all. It has an
"electronic cvt" that is really just a pair of motor/generators in a
differential arrangement with the gas engine... there is no place to put a
transmission in the power train. If it were called a "virtual cvt" it would
be less confusing.

Honda's IMA (integrated motor assist) works fine with a manual; Toyotas SHS
(synergy hybrid system) could never have one, if only because the driver has
no control over whether the engine is even running.

Mike

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

"Gordon McGrew" <gRmEcMgOrVeEw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:n1n6415e4ld5568b02dss1lue7vccg1us2@4ax.com...
>
>
> There are lots of great statistics at the Government CAFE web site.
> Lots of compiled data on cars going back to 1977 (and some even
> older.) One interesting trend tracked is the percentage of
> automobiles with automatic transmissions.
>
> In 1977, 84.1% of all new cars had AT. Under pressure of demands for
> improved fuel economy and increasing consumer preference for import
> cars, that number dropped to 75.0% in 1987. Then imports went
> upscale, ATs became more sophisticated and fuel got cheap. By 2002,
> 88.5% of new cars had only two pedals and the imminent demise of the
> manual transmission was widely predicted.
>
> Then something funny happened. There were rumors of rebellion in the
> ranks and increased reports of drivers demanding control of the gear
> ratios. In 2003, the percentage of cars sold with automatics dropped
> precipitously to 82.4%. The CAFE site is now reporting a further drop
> in 2004 with the lowest percentage of AT's since 1991, 79.6%. That
> means that the number of cars sold with manual transmissions increased
> 77% in only two years and a clutch is now found in one of every five
> new cars.
>
> In terms of sales, this trend actually surpasses the much touted
> return of rear wheel drive and the movement is broad based. While
> keeping in mind that the politics of fuel economy can skew the
> definitions pretty badly, the trend is apparent in domestics, Asian
> and European imports. All are selling manual transmissions at levels
> that haven't been seen in a decade. Almost half of all European cars
> are now shifters, the highest rate since 1988.
>
> Will this be a long lasting trend or a brief flash? It is still too
> early to tell but it certainly shows that the old MT is going to be
> harder to kill than it once appeared. The auto companies have now
> learned that there is a solid base of buyers who prefer to shift for
> themselves and the increased availability of this option is sure to
> follow.
>
>
> http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...erCarFleet.htm


I wish they'd put a MT in the 4 door accord V6.

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

"Gordon McGrew" <gRmEcMgOrVeEw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:n1n6415e4ld5568b02dss1lue7vccg1us2@4ax.com...
>
>
> There are lots of great statistics at the Government CAFE web site.
> Lots of compiled data on cars going back to 1977 (and some even
> older.) One interesting trend tracked is the percentage of
> automobiles with automatic transmissions.
>
> In 1977, 84.1% of all new cars had AT. Under pressure of demands for
> improved fuel economy and increasing consumer preference for import
> cars, that number dropped to 75.0% in 1987. Then imports went
> upscale, ATs became more sophisticated and fuel got cheap. By 2002,
> 88.5% of new cars had only two pedals and the imminent demise of the
> manual transmission was widely predicted.
>
> Then something funny happened. There were rumors of rebellion in the
> ranks and increased reports of drivers demanding control of the gear
> ratios. In 2003, the percentage of cars sold with automatics dropped
> precipitously to 82.4%. The CAFE site is now reporting a further drop
> in 2004 with the lowest percentage of AT's since 1991, 79.6%. That
> means that the number of cars sold with manual transmissions increased
> 77% in only two years and a clutch is now found in one of every five
> new cars.
>
> In terms of sales, this trend actually surpasses the much touted
> return of rear wheel drive and the movement is broad based. While
> keeping in mind that the politics of fuel economy can skew the
> definitions pretty badly, the trend is apparent in domestics, Asian
> and European imports. All are selling manual transmissions at levels
> that haven't been seen in a decade. Almost half of all European cars
> are now shifters, the highest rate since 1988.
>
> Will this be a long lasting trend or a brief flash? It is still too
> early to tell but it certainly shows that the old MT is going to be
> harder to kill than it once appeared. The auto companies have now
> learned that there is a solid base of buyers who prefer to shift for
> themselves and the increased availability of this option is sure to
> follow.
>
>
> http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...erCarFleet.htm


I wish they'd put a MT in the 4 door accord V6.

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

"Dave" <dm@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:83T0e.110897$H05.86235@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. .
> In article <4243de3a_4@x-privat.org>, "dragon" <dondragon38@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> >> >
> >> Well, now the trend is to have both manual and auto trannies on the
same
> >car
> >> which is called million different names such as autostick, tiptronic,
> >> easytronic, multimod manual, activeselect or whatever...
> >
> >of course, i didn't mean that these cars have 2 transmissions...just one
> >with with the capabilities of both both manual and auto transmission...
>
> Yes, I wonder how they (NHTSA) are defining "manual". Some of the
> ones you listed are typical torque converter ("slushboxes") where
> they just add a manual shifting mode. Others have actual manual
> trannies, just with an electronic clutch, ex: BMW's SMG. I
> believe your "Easytronic" is the latter?
>

I think you are correct.. Opel calls it a clutchless automatic or semi
automatic. When it shifts the gear, it is not as smooth as normal
automatics..You definitely feel it. a slight pause and the shift. if you
take your foot off of the gas pedal slightly, it shifts easier or less
noticeably. It also moves backward when you are on a very slight incline and
your foot is not on the brake just like regular 5 speeds.


> I wonder how many folk who buy the tiptronic type actually
> manually shift. When I've driven those, I get tired of the
> novelty in the first drive and just end out driving them like
> every other automatic.

Well., same here too..first couple of times I stole the car from my wife, I
shifted myself and got tired of it and quit...

ahmet

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

"Dave" <dm@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:83T0e.110897$H05.86235@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. .
> In article <4243de3a_4@x-privat.org>, "dragon" <dondragon38@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> >> >
> >> Well, now the trend is to have both manual and auto trannies on the
same
> >car
> >> which is called million different names such as autostick, tiptronic,
> >> easytronic, multimod manual, activeselect or whatever...
> >
> >of course, i didn't mean that these cars have 2 transmissions...just one
> >with with the capabilities of both both manual and auto transmission...
>
> Yes, I wonder how they (NHTSA) are defining "manual". Some of the
> ones you listed are typical torque converter ("slushboxes") where
> they just add a manual shifting mode. Others have actual manual
> trannies, just with an electronic clutch, ex: BMW's SMG. I
> believe your "Easytronic" is the latter?
>

I think you are correct.. Opel calls it a clutchless automatic or semi
automatic. When it shifts the gear, it is not as smooth as normal
automatics..You definitely feel it. a slight pause and the shift. if you
take your foot off of the gas pedal slightly, it shifts easier or less
noticeably. It also moves backward when you are on a very slight incline and
your foot is not on the brake just like regular 5 speeds.


> I wonder how many folk who buy the tiptronic type actually
> manually shift. When I've driven those, I get tired of the
> novelty in the first drive and just end out driving them like
> every other automatic.

Well., same here too..first couple of times I stole the car from my wife, I
shifted myself and got tired of it and quit...

ahmet

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In article <YpKdnQxTZIHtl9nfRVn-ig@sedona.net>, "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:

>It's the Toyota system as used in the Prius and Ford Escape that can't have
>a manual; in fact, it can't have any transmission at all. It has an
>"electronic cvt" that is really just a pair of motor/generators in a
>differential arrangement with the gas engine... there is no place to put a
>transmission in the power train. If it were called a "virtual cvt" it would
>be less confusing.

Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "transmission", but
I'd definitely say they have one! They have a set of planetary
gears (which automatic transmissions also use). And yes, as you
wrote, motor/generator is used to modify the gear ratio between
the ICE and the driveshaft, as well as supply torque.

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In article <YpKdnQxTZIHtl9nfRVn-ig@sedona.net>, "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:

>It's the Toyota system as used in the Prius and Ford Escape that can't have
>a manual; in fact, it can't have any transmission at all. It has an
>"electronic cvt" that is really just a pair of motor/generators in a
>differential arrangement with the gas engine... there is no place to put a
>transmission in the power train. If it were called a "virtual cvt" it would
>be less confusing.

Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "transmission", but
I'd definitely say they have one! They have a set of planetary
gears (which automatic transmissions also use). And yes, as you
wrote, motor/generator is used to modify the gear ratio between
the ICE and the driveshaft, as well as supply torque.

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In rec.autos.makers.honda Dave <dm@nospam.com> wrote:
> Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "transmission", but
> I'd definitely say they have one! They have a set of planetary
> gears (which automatic transmissions also use). And yes, as you
> wrote, motor/generator is used to modify the gear ratio between
> the ICE and the driveshaft, as well as supply torque.

Describe that a little more, if you would. I have a Honda Civic Hybrid
with CVT, and I understand how it works. The IMA is fixed to the
crankshaft, so they are both turning at the same speed. The CVT is a steel
belt on movable "pinch" pulleys to provide the variable ratio.

I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the
Escape. Short of buying the service manual, can you point to a decent
reference for how it really works? I've seen some misguided crud, but no
real explanation. I assume that it is the same as the Prius, so reference
to that would be good, unless I can spot a discrepancy.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In rec.autos.makers.honda Dave <dm@nospam.com> wrote:
> Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "transmission", but
> I'd definitely say they have one! They have a set of planetary
> gears (which automatic transmissions also use). And yes, as you
> wrote, motor/generator is used to modify the gear ratio between
> the ICE and the driveshaft, as well as supply torque.

Describe that a little more, if you would. I have a Honda Civic Hybrid
with CVT, and I understand how it works. The IMA is fixed to the
crankshaft, so they are both turning at the same speed. The CVT is a steel
belt on movable "pinch" pulleys to provide the variable ratio.

I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the
Escape. Short of buying the service manual, can you point to a decent
reference for how it really works? I've seen some misguided crud, but no
real explanation. I assume that it is the same as the Prius, so reference
to that would be good, unless I can spot a discrepancy.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> > On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT.
>
> shhhhhhh......don't tell Honda, who sells them by the boatload with
> manual transmissions.....

sweet! I also was under the impression that hybrids were only AT
(probably because Prius came out first), and I was saddened that I
would have to give up MT if I ever wanted to get a hybrid. But now I
can have the best of both worlds.

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> > On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT.
>
> shhhhhhh......don't tell Honda, who sells them by the boatload with
> manual transmissions.....

sweet! I also was under the impression that hybrids were only AT
(probably because Prius came out first), and I was saddened that I
would have to give up MT if I ever wanted to get a hybrid. But now I
can have the best of both worlds.

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In article <1111786109.613439.121430@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>,
"Bucky" <uw_badgers@email.com> wrote:

> I also was under the impression that hybrids were only AT
> (probably because Prius came out first),

No, the Prius came out after the Insight. Insight: 2000. Prius:
2001. Civic Hybrid: 2003.

The Insight was available with both manual and auto trans, as is the
current Civic Hybrid.

The Toyota is a complex system; the Honda is simple and straightforward.
Integrated Motor Assist is probably more bang for the buck.

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In article <1111786109.613439.121430@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>,
"Bucky" <uw_badgers@email.com> wrote:

> I also was under the impression that hybrids were only AT
> (probably because Prius came out first),

No, the Prius came out after the Insight. Insight: 2000. Prius:
2001. Civic Hybrid: 2003.

The Insight was available with both manual and auto trans, as is the
current Civic Hybrid.

The Toyota is a complex system; the Honda is simple and straightforward.
Integrated Motor Assist is probably more bang for the buck.

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In article <d21tgu$7et$1@blue.rahul.net>, dold@XReXXItXsX.usenet.us.com
wrote:

> I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the
> Escape.

The Escape uses pretty much the same system as what Toyota uses, which
is way different than the straightforward Honda Integrated Motor Assist.

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In article <d21tgu$7et$1@blue.rahul.net>, dold@XReXXItXsX.usenet.us.com
wrote:

> I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the
> Escape.

The Escape uses pretty much the same system as what Toyota uses, which
is way different than the straightforward Honda Integrated Motor Assist.

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In article <d21tgu$7et$1@blue.rahul.net>, dold@XReXXItXsX.usenet.us.com wrote:

>Describe that a little more, if you would. I have a Honda Civic Hybrid
>with CVT, and I understand how it works. The IMA is fixed to the
>crankshaft, so they are both turning at the same speed. The CVT is a steel
>belt on movable "pinch" pulleys to provide the variable ratio.
>
>I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the
>Escape. Short of buying the service manual, can you point to a decent
>reference for how it really works? I've seen some misguided crud, but no
>real explanation. I assume that it is the same as the Prius, so reference
>to that would be good, unless I can spot a discrepancy.

Try this treatise:
http://home.earthlink.
net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/Understanding/PowerSplitDevice.htm

I can't vouch for it being 100% correct, but it is similar to what
I've read before about the Toyota hybrid drive. Basically, by
varying the motor/generator1 speed, one can control the ICE rpm.

It's pretty neat, but also complex. 2 high-power
motor/generators.

Another reference:
http://www.me.utexas.edu/~tomr/body.htm

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In article <d21tgu$7et$1@blue.rahul.net>, dold@XReXXItXsX.usenet.us.com wrote:

>Describe that a little more, if you would. I have a Honda Civic Hybrid
>with CVT, and I understand how it works. The IMA is fixed to the
>crankshaft, so they are both turning at the same speed. The CVT is a steel
>belt on movable "pinch" pulleys to provide the variable ratio.
>
>I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the
>Escape. Short of buying the service manual, can you point to a decent
>reference for how it really works? I've seen some misguided crud, but no
>real explanation. I assume that it is the same as the Prius, so reference
>to that would be good, unless I can spot a discrepancy.

Try this treatise:
http://home.earthlink.
net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/Understanding/PowerSplitDevice.htm

I can't vouch for it being 100% correct, but it is similar to what
I've read before about the Toyota hybrid drive. Basically, by
varying the motor/generator1 speed, one can control the ICE rpm.

It's pretty neat, but also complex. 2 high-power
motor/generators.

Another reference:
http://www.me.utexas.edu/~tomr/body.htm

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In article <elmop-8C14D3.16443425032005@text.usenetserver.com>, "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:

>No, the Prius came out after the Insight. Insight: 2000. Prius:
>2001. Civic Hybrid: 2003.

In the US, you are correct. But the Prius was released in Japan
and Europe before the Insight was produced. Honda reportedly
rushed out the Insight to beat Toyota to the US market.
Succesfully I would say as a lot of people think Honda made the
first commercial hybrid!

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In article <elmop-8C14D3.16443425032005@text.usenetserver.com>, "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:

>No, the Prius came out after the Insight. Insight: 2000. Prius:
>2001. Civic Hybrid: 2003.

In the US, you are correct. But the Prius was released in Japan
and Europe before the Insight was produced. Honda reportedly
rushed out the Insight to beat Toyota to the US market.
Succesfully I would say as a lot of people think Honda made the
first commercial hybrid!

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> No, the Prius came out after the Insight. Insight: 2000. Prius:
> 2001. Civic Hybrid: 2003.

OK fine, is this better? =)

I also was under the impression that hybrids were only AT
(probably because Prius was the first hybrid to be popularized in the
mainstream US media).

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> No, the Prius came out after the Insight. Insight: 2000. Prius:
> 2001. Civic Hybrid: 2003.

OK fine, is this better? =)

I also was under the impression that hybrids were only AT
(probably because Prius was the first hybrid to be popularized in the
mainstream US media).

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

"Dave" <dm@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:2I%0e.111741$H05.63231@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. .
> In article <d21tgu$7et$1@blue.rahul.net>, dold@XReXXItXsX.usenet.us.com
> wrote:
>
>>Describe that a little more, if you would. I have a Honda Civic Hybrid
>>with CVT, and I understand how it works. The IMA is fixed to the
>>crankshaft, so they are both turning at the same speed. The CVT is a
>>steel
>>belt on movable "pinch" pulleys to provide the variable ratio.
>>
>>I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the
>>Escape. Short of buying the service manual, can you point to a decent
>>reference for how it really works? I've seen some misguided crud, but no
>>real explanation. I assume that it is the same as the Prius, so reference
>>to that would be good, unless I can spot a discrepancy.
>
> Try this treatise:
> http://home.earthlink.
> net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/Understanding/PowerSplitDevice.htm
>
> I can't vouch for it being 100% correct, but it is similar to what
> I've read before about the Toyota hybrid drive. Basically, by
> varying the motor/generator1 speed, one can control the ICE rpm.
>
> It's pretty neat, but also complex. 2 high-power
> motor/generators.
>
That site is by Graham Davies, one of the genuine Prius gurus. He writes
that he looked into it very carefully, and it is true - under many
conditions MG1 is used as a generator to provide power to MG2. It makes my
head hurt to visualize it.

Mike

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

"Dave" <dm@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:2I%0e.111741$H05.63231@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. .
> In article <d21tgu$7et$1@blue.rahul.net>, dold@XReXXItXsX.usenet.us.com
> wrote:
>
>>Describe that a little more, if you would. I have a Honda Civic Hybrid
>>with CVT, and I understand how it works. The IMA is fixed to the
>>crankshaft, so they are both turning at the same speed. The CVT is a
>>steel
>>belt on movable "pinch" pulleys to provide the variable ratio.
>>
>>I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the
>>Escape. Short of buying the service manual, can you point to a decent
>>reference for how it really works? I've seen some misguided crud, but no
>>real explanation. I assume that it is the same as the Prius, so reference
>>to that would be good, unless I can spot a discrepancy.
>
> Try this treatise:
> http://home.earthlink.
> net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/Understanding/PowerSplitDevice.htm
>
> I can't vouch for it being 100% correct, but it is similar to what
> I've read before about the Toyota hybrid drive. Basically, by
> varying the motor/generator1 speed, one can control the ICE rpm.
>
> It's pretty neat, but also complex. 2 high-power
> motor/generators.
>
That site is by Graham Davies, one of the genuine Prius gurus. He writes
that he looked into it very carefully, and it is true - under many
conditions MG1 is used as a generator to provide power to MG2. It makes my
head hurt to visualize it.

Mike

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In rec.autos.makers.honda Elmo P. Shagnasty <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
> The Toyota is a complex system; the Honda is simple and straightforward.
> Integrated Motor Assist is probably more bang for the buck.

I think of the IMA as an electric turbocharger. It uses mostly wasted
energy later, to add some power to the little tiny gas engine that is able
to get high mileage. I wonder what kind of mileage the civic would get if
it just had the 1300cc engine, and no IMA. It is very simple to
understand, and rather obvious in operation.

I don't understand the Escape very well yet. Definitely a different
animal, and a precursor for the heavy hybrid (no pun towards the weight of
the SUV). The electric-only mode could be extended with a heavier battery
set and different logic so that it could operate completely electric and be
charged at night, and yet have the gas engine for long distance usage.
I have seen 99mpg on my average mileage display over a 10 mile stretch of
commute traffic. Then the engine starts, and the mpg plummets ;-)

I picture today's Escape as a Gas-Electric Hybrid, where the next
generation might be an Electric-Gas Hybrid.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In rec.autos.makers.honda Elmo P. Shagnasty <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
> The Toyota is a complex system; the Honda is simple and straightforward.
> Integrated Motor Assist is probably more bang for the buck.

I think of the IMA as an electric turbocharger. It uses mostly wasted
energy later, to add some power to the little tiny gas engine that is able
to get high mileage. I wonder what kind of mileage the civic would get if
it just had the 1300cc engine, and no IMA. It is very simple to
understand, and rather obvious in operation.

I don't understand the Escape very well yet. Definitely a different
animal, and a precursor for the heavy hybrid (no pun towards the weight of
the SUV). The electric-only mode could be extended with a heavier battery
set and different logic so that it could operate completely electric and be
charged at night, and yet have the gas engine for long distance usage.
I have seen 99mpg on my average mileage display over a 10 mile stretch of
commute traffic. Then the engine starts, and the mpg plummets ;-)

I picture today's Escape as a Gas-Electric Hybrid, where the next
generation might be an Electric-Gas Hybrid.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

"Dave" <dm@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:BiY0e.95910$vK5.73246@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> In article <YpKdnQxTZIHtl9nfRVn-ig@sedona.net>, "Michael Pardee"
> <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>
>>It's the Toyota system as used in the Prius and Ford Escape that can't
>>have
>>a manual; in fact, it can't have any transmission at all. It has an
>>"electronic cvt" that is really just a pair of motor/generators in a
>>differential arrangement with the gas engine... there is no place to put a
>>transmission in the power train. If it were called a "virtual cvt" it
>>would
>>be less confusing.
>
> Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "transmission", but
> I'd definitely say they have one! They have a set of planetary
> gears (which automatic transmissions also use). And yes, as you
> wrote, motor/generator is used to modify the gear ratio between
> the ICE and the driveshaft, as well as supply torque.

By that way of looking at it, SHS has two transmissions, like pretty much
all cars. The planetary "power split device" is a skewed differential and
could have been made like a typical differential if ruggedness weren't
important. No gears ever shift, there are no clutches or belts or hydraulics
or solenoids or forks. It is all fixed gearing, which makes it different
from automatic transmissions. The device should be bulletproof as long as
the lubricant is kept up, without the weaknesses of manual trannies (no
synchros, no clutch, no gear crunches possible).

The way I describe the system is to visualize an engine connected straight
through to a differential. Instead of wheels, there is a motor/generator on
each side of that differential. Connect another conventional differential
and wheel setup to one side, and there you have it.

Mike