It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
#16
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
"Gordon McGrew" <gRmEcMgOrVeEw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:n1n6415e4ld5568b02dss1lue7vccg1us2@4ax.com...
>
>
> There are lots of great statistics at the Government CAFE web site.
> Lots of compiled data on cars going back to 1977 (and some even
> older.) One interesting trend tracked is the percentage of
> automobiles with automatic transmissions.
>
> In 1977, 84.1% of all new cars had AT. Under pressure of demands for
> improved fuel economy and increasing consumer preference for import
> cars, that number dropped to 75.0% in 1987. Then imports went
> upscale, ATs became more sophisticated and fuel got cheap. By 2002,
> 88.5% of new cars had only two pedals and the imminent demise of the
> manual transmission was widely predicted.
>
> Then something funny happened. There were rumors of rebellion in the
> ranks and increased reports of drivers demanding control of the gear
> ratios. In 2003, the percentage of cars sold with automatics dropped
> precipitously to 82.4%. The CAFE site is now reporting a further drop
> in 2004 with the lowest percentage of AT's since 1991, 79.6%. That
> means that the number of cars sold with manual transmissions increased
> 77% in only two years and a clutch is now found in one of every five
> new cars.
>
> In terms of sales, this trend actually surpasses the much touted
> return of rear wheel drive and the movement is broad based. While
> keeping in mind that the politics of fuel economy can skew the
> definitions pretty badly, the trend is apparent in domestics, Asian
> and European imports. All are selling manual transmissions at levels
> that haven't been seen in a decade. Almost half of all European cars
> are now shifters, the highest rate since 1988.
>
> Will this be a long lasting trend or a brief flash? It is still too
> early to tell but it certainly shows that the old MT is going to be
> harder to kill than it once appeared. The auto companies have now
> learned that there is a solid base of buyers who prefer to shift for
> themselves and the increased availability of this option is sure to
> follow.
>
>
> http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...erCarFleet.htm
I wish they'd put a MT in the 4 door accord V6.
#17
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
"Gordon McGrew" <gRmEcMgOrVeEw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:n1n6415e4ld5568b02dss1lue7vccg1us2@4ax.com...
>
>
> There are lots of great statistics at the Government CAFE web site.
> Lots of compiled data on cars going back to 1977 (and some even
> older.) One interesting trend tracked is the percentage of
> automobiles with automatic transmissions.
>
> In 1977, 84.1% of all new cars had AT. Under pressure of demands for
> improved fuel economy and increasing consumer preference for import
> cars, that number dropped to 75.0% in 1987. Then imports went
> upscale, ATs became more sophisticated and fuel got cheap. By 2002,
> 88.5% of new cars had only two pedals and the imminent demise of the
> manual transmission was widely predicted.
>
> Then something funny happened. There were rumors of rebellion in the
> ranks and increased reports of drivers demanding control of the gear
> ratios. In 2003, the percentage of cars sold with automatics dropped
> precipitously to 82.4%. The CAFE site is now reporting a further drop
> in 2004 with the lowest percentage of AT's since 1991, 79.6%. That
> means that the number of cars sold with manual transmissions increased
> 77% in only two years and a clutch is now found in one of every five
> new cars.
>
> In terms of sales, this trend actually surpasses the much touted
> return of rear wheel drive and the movement is broad based. While
> keeping in mind that the politics of fuel economy can skew the
> definitions pretty badly, the trend is apparent in domestics, Asian
> and European imports. All are selling manual transmissions at levels
> that haven't been seen in a decade. Almost half of all European cars
> are now shifters, the highest rate since 1988.
>
> Will this be a long lasting trend or a brief flash? It is still too
> early to tell but it certainly shows that the old MT is going to be
> harder to kill than it once appeared. The auto companies have now
> learned that there is a solid base of buyers who prefer to shift for
> themselves and the increased availability of this option is sure to
> follow.
>
>
> http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...erCarFleet.htm
I wish they'd put a MT in the 4 door accord V6.
#18
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
"Dave" <dm@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:83T0e.110897$H05.86235@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. .
> In article <4243de3a_4@x-privat.org>, "dragon" <dondragon38@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> >> >
> >> Well, now the trend is to have both manual and auto trannies on the
same
> >car
> >> which is called million different names such as autostick, tiptronic,
> >> easytronic, multimod manual, activeselect or whatever...
> >
> >of course, i didn't mean that these cars have 2 transmissions...just one
> >with with the capabilities of both both manual and auto transmission...
>
> Yes, I wonder how they (NHTSA) are defining "manual". Some of the
> ones you listed are typical torque converter ("slushboxes") where
> they just add a manual shifting mode. Others have actual manual
> trannies, just with an electronic clutch, ex: BMW's SMG. I
> believe your "Easytronic" is the latter?
>
I think you are correct.. Opel calls it a clutchless automatic or semi
automatic. When it shifts the gear, it is not as smooth as normal
automatics..You definitely feel it. a slight pause and the shift. if you
take your foot off of the gas pedal slightly, it shifts easier or less
noticeably. It also moves backward when you are on a very slight incline and
your foot is not on the brake just like regular 5 speeds.
> I wonder how many folk who buy the tiptronic type actually
> manually shift. When I've driven those, I get tired of the
> novelty in the first drive and just end out driving them like
> every other automatic.
Well., same here too..first couple of times I stole the car from my wife, I
shifted myself and got tired of it and quit...
ahmet
#19
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
"Dave" <dm@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:83T0e.110897$H05.86235@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. .
> In article <4243de3a_4@x-privat.org>, "dragon" <dondragon38@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> >> >
> >> Well, now the trend is to have both manual and auto trannies on the
same
> >car
> >> which is called million different names such as autostick, tiptronic,
> >> easytronic, multimod manual, activeselect or whatever...
> >
> >of course, i didn't mean that these cars have 2 transmissions...just one
> >with with the capabilities of both both manual and auto transmission...
>
> Yes, I wonder how they (NHTSA) are defining "manual". Some of the
> ones you listed are typical torque converter ("slushboxes") where
> they just add a manual shifting mode. Others have actual manual
> trannies, just with an electronic clutch, ex: BMW's SMG. I
> believe your "Easytronic" is the latter?
>
I think you are correct.. Opel calls it a clutchless automatic or semi
automatic. When it shifts the gear, it is not as smooth as normal
automatics..You definitely feel it. a slight pause and the shift. if you
take your foot off of the gas pedal slightly, it shifts easier or less
noticeably. It also moves backward when you are on a very slight incline and
your foot is not on the brake just like regular 5 speeds.
> I wonder how many folk who buy the tiptronic type actually
> manually shift. When I've driven those, I get tired of the
> novelty in the first drive and just end out driving them like
> every other automatic.
Well., same here too..first couple of times I stole the car from my wife, I
shifted myself and got tired of it and quit...
ahmet
#20
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
In article <YpKdnQxTZIHtl9nfRVn-ig@sedona.net>, "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>It's the Toyota system as used in the Prius and Ford Escape that can't have
>a manual; in fact, it can't have any transmission at all. It has an
>"electronic cvt" that is really just a pair of motor/generators in a
>differential arrangement with the gas engine... there is no place to put a
>transmission in the power train. If it were called a "virtual cvt" it would
>be less confusing.
Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "transmission", but
I'd definitely say they have one! They have a set of planetary
gears (which automatic transmissions also use). And yes, as you
wrote, motor/generator is used to modify the gear ratio between
the ICE and the driveshaft, as well as supply torque.
>It's the Toyota system as used in the Prius and Ford Escape that can't have
>a manual; in fact, it can't have any transmission at all. It has an
>"electronic cvt" that is really just a pair of motor/generators in a
>differential arrangement with the gas engine... there is no place to put a
>transmission in the power train. If it were called a "virtual cvt" it would
>be less confusing.
Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "transmission", but
I'd definitely say they have one! They have a set of planetary
gears (which automatic transmissions also use). And yes, as you
wrote, motor/generator is used to modify the gear ratio between
the ICE and the driveshaft, as well as supply torque.
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
In article <YpKdnQxTZIHtl9nfRVn-ig@sedona.net>, "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>It's the Toyota system as used in the Prius and Ford Escape that can't have
>a manual; in fact, it can't have any transmission at all. It has an
>"electronic cvt" that is really just a pair of motor/generators in a
>differential arrangement with the gas engine... there is no place to put a
>transmission in the power train. If it were called a "virtual cvt" it would
>be less confusing.
Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "transmission", but
I'd definitely say they have one! They have a set of planetary
gears (which automatic transmissions also use). And yes, as you
wrote, motor/generator is used to modify the gear ratio between
the ICE and the driveshaft, as well as supply torque.
>It's the Toyota system as used in the Prius and Ford Escape that can't have
>a manual; in fact, it can't have any transmission at all. It has an
>"electronic cvt" that is really just a pair of motor/generators in a
>differential arrangement with the gas engine... there is no place to put a
>transmission in the power train. If it were called a "virtual cvt" it would
>be less confusing.
Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "transmission", but
I'd definitely say they have one! They have a set of planetary
gears (which automatic transmissions also use). And yes, as you
wrote, motor/generator is used to modify the gear ratio between
the ICE and the driveshaft, as well as supply torque.
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
In rec.autos.makers.honda Dave <dm@nospam.com> wrote:
> Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "transmission", but
> I'd definitely say they have one! They have a set of planetary
> gears (which automatic transmissions also use). And yes, as you
> wrote, motor/generator is used to modify the gear ratio between
> the ICE and the driveshaft, as well as supply torque.
Describe that a little more, if you would. I have a Honda Civic Hybrid
with CVT, and I understand how it works. The IMA is fixed to the
crankshaft, so they are both turning at the same speed. The CVT is a steel
belt on movable "pinch" pulleys to provide the variable ratio.
I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the
Escape. Short of buying the service manual, can you point to a decent
reference for how it really works? I've seen some misguided crud, but no
real explanation. I assume that it is the same as the Prius, so reference
to that would be good, unless I can spot a discrepancy.
--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5
> Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "transmission", but
> I'd definitely say they have one! They have a set of planetary
> gears (which automatic transmissions also use). And yes, as you
> wrote, motor/generator is used to modify the gear ratio between
> the ICE and the driveshaft, as well as supply torque.
Describe that a little more, if you would. I have a Honda Civic Hybrid
with CVT, and I understand how it works. The IMA is fixed to the
crankshaft, so they are both turning at the same speed. The CVT is a steel
belt on movable "pinch" pulleys to provide the variable ratio.
I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the
Escape. Short of buying the service manual, can you point to a decent
reference for how it really works? I've seen some misguided crud, but no
real explanation. I assume that it is the same as the Prius, so reference
to that would be good, unless I can spot a discrepancy.
--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
In rec.autos.makers.honda Dave <dm@nospam.com> wrote:
> Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "transmission", but
> I'd definitely say they have one! They have a set of planetary
> gears (which automatic transmissions also use). And yes, as you
> wrote, motor/generator is used to modify the gear ratio between
> the ICE and the driveshaft, as well as supply torque.
Describe that a little more, if you would. I have a Honda Civic Hybrid
with CVT, and I understand how it works. The IMA is fixed to the
crankshaft, so they are both turning at the same speed. The CVT is a steel
belt on movable "pinch" pulleys to provide the variable ratio.
I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the
Escape. Short of buying the service manual, can you point to a decent
reference for how it really works? I've seen some misguided crud, but no
real explanation. I assume that it is the same as the Prius, so reference
to that would be good, unless I can spot a discrepancy.
--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5
> Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "transmission", but
> I'd definitely say they have one! They have a set of planetary
> gears (which automatic transmissions also use). And yes, as you
> wrote, motor/generator is used to modify the gear ratio between
> the ICE and the driveshaft, as well as supply torque.
Describe that a little more, if you would. I have a Honda Civic Hybrid
with CVT, and I understand how it works. The IMA is fixed to the
crankshaft, so they are both turning at the same speed. The CVT is a steel
belt on movable "pinch" pulleys to provide the variable ratio.
I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the
Escape. Short of buying the service manual, can you point to a decent
reference for how it really works? I've seen some misguided crud, but no
real explanation. I assume that it is the same as the Prius, so reference
to that would be good, unless I can spot a discrepancy.
--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5
#24
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> > On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT.
>
> shhhhhhh......don't tell Honda, who sells them by the boatload with
> manual transmissions.....
sweet! I also was under the impression that hybrids were only AT
(probably because Prius came out first), and I was saddened that I
would have to give up MT if I ever wanted to get a hybrid. But now I
can have the best of both worlds.
> > On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT.
>
> shhhhhhh......don't tell Honda, who sells them by the boatload with
> manual transmissions.....
sweet! I also was under the impression that hybrids were only AT
(probably because Prius came out first), and I was saddened that I
would have to give up MT if I ever wanted to get a hybrid. But now I
can have the best of both worlds.
#25
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> > On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT.
>
> shhhhhhh......don't tell Honda, who sells them by the boatload with
> manual transmissions.....
sweet! I also was under the impression that hybrids were only AT
(probably because Prius came out first), and I was saddened that I
would have to give up MT if I ever wanted to get a hybrid. But now I
can have the best of both worlds.
> > On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT.
>
> shhhhhhh......don't tell Honda, who sells them by the boatload with
> manual transmissions.....
sweet! I also was under the impression that hybrids were only AT
(probably because Prius came out first), and I was saddened that I
would have to give up MT if I ever wanted to get a hybrid. But now I
can have the best of both worlds.
#26
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
In article <1111786109.613439.121430@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>,
"Bucky" <uw_badgers@email.com> wrote:
> I also was under the impression that hybrids were only AT
> (probably because Prius came out first),
No, the Prius came out after the Insight. Insight: 2000. Prius:
2001. Civic Hybrid: 2003.
The Insight was available with both manual and auto trans, as is the
current Civic Hybrid.
The Toyota is a complex system; the Honda is simple and straightforward.
Integrated Motor Assist is probably more bang for the buck.
"Bucky" <uw_badgers@email.com> wrote:
> I also was under the impression that hybrids were only AT
> (probably because Prius came out first),
No, the Prius came out after the Insight. Insight: 2000. Prius:
2001. Civic Hybrid: 2003.
The Insight was available with both manual and auto trans, as is the
current Civic Hybrid.
The Toyota is a complex system; the Honda is simple and straightforward.
Integrated Motor Assist is probably more bang for the buck.
#27
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
In article <1111786109.613439.121430@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>,
"Bucky" <uw_badgers@email.com> wrote:
> I also was under the impression that hybrids were only AT
> (probably because Prius came out first),
No, the Prius came out after the Insight. Insight: 2000. Prius:
2001. Civic Hybrid: 2003.
The Insight was available with both manual and auto trans, as is the
current Civic Hybrid.
The Toyota is a complex system; the Honda is simple and straightforward.
Integrated Motor Assist is probably more bang for the buck.
"Bucky" <uw_badgers@email.com> wrote:
> I also was under the impression that hybrids were only AT
> (probably because Prius came out first),
No, the Prius came out after the Insight. Insight: 2000. Prius:
2001. Civic Hybrid: 2003.
The Insight was available with both manual and auto trans, as is the
current Civic Hybrid.
The Toyota is a complex system; the Honda is simple and straightforward.
Integrated Motor Assist is probably more bang for the buck.
#28
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
In article <d21tgu$7et$1@blue.rahul.net>, dold@XReXXItXsX.usenet.us.com
wrote:
> I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the
> Escape.
The Escape uses pretty much the same system as what Toyota uses, which
is way different than the straightforward Honda Integrated Motor Assist.
wrote:
> I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the
> Escape.
The Escape uses pretty much the same system as what Toyota uses, which
is way different than the straightforward Honda Integrated Motor Assist.
#29
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
In article <d21tgu$7et$1@blue.rahul.net>, dold@XReXXItXsX.usenet.us.com
wrote:
> I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the
> Escape.
The Escape uses pretty much the same system as what Toyota uses, which
is way different than the straightforward Honda Integrated Motor Assist.
wrote:
> I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the
> Escape.
The Escape uses pretty much the same system as what Toyota uses, which
is way different than the straightforward Honda Integrated Motor Assist.
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
In article <d21tgu$7et$1@blue.rahul.net>, dold@XReXXItXsX.usenet.us.com wrote:
>Describe that a little more, if you would. I have a Honda Civic Hybrid
>with CVT, and I understand how it works. The IMA is fixed to the
>crankshaft, so they are both turning at the same speed. The CVT is a steel
>belt on movable "pinch" pulleys to provide the variable ratio.
>
>I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the
>Escape. Short of buying the service manual, can you point to a decent
>reference for how it really works? I've seen some misguided crud, but no
>real explanation. I assume that it is the same as the Prius, so reference
>to that would be good, unless I can spot a discrepancy.
Try this treatise:
http://home.earthlink.
net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/Understanding/PowerSplitDevice.htm
I can't vouch for it being 100% correct, but it is similar to what
I've read before about the Toyota hybrid drive. Basically, by
varying the motor/generator1 speed, one can control the ICE rpm.
It's pretty neat, but also complex. 2 high-power
motor/generators.
Another reference:
http://www.me.utexas.edu/~tomr/body.htm
>Describe that a little more, if you would. I have a Honda Civic Hybrid
>with CVT, and I understand how it works. The IMA is fixed to the
>crankshaft, so they are both turning at the same speed. The CVT is a steel
>belt on movable "pinch" pulleys to provide the variable ratio.
>
>I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the
>Escape. Short of buying the service manual, can you point to a decent
>reference for how it really works? I've seen some misguided crud, but no
>real explanation. I assume that it is the same as the Prius, so reference
>to that would be good, unless I can spot a discrepancy.
Try this treatise:
http://home.earthlink.
net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/Understanding/PowerSplitDevice.htm
I can't vouch for it being 100% correct, but it is similar to what
I've read before about the Toyota hybrid drive. Basically, by
varying the motor/generator1 speed, one can control the ICE rpm.
It's pretty neat, but also complex. 2 high-power
motor/generators.
Another reference:
http://www.me.utexas.edu/~tomr/body.htm