Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In article <d21tgu$7et$1@blue.rahul.net>, dold@XReXXItXsX.usenet.us.com wrote:

>Describe that a little more, if you would. I have a Honda Civic Hybrid
>with CVT, and I understand how it works. The IMA is fixed to the
>crankshaft, so they are both turning at the same speed. The CVT is a steel
>belt on movable "pinch" pulleys to provide the variable ratio.
>
>I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the
>Escape. Short of buying the service manual, can you point to a decent
>reference for how it really works? I've seen some misguided crud, but no
>real explanation. I assume that it is the same as the Prius, so reference
>to that would be good, unless I can spot a discrepancy.

Try this treatise:
http://home.earthlink.
net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/Understanding/PowerSplitDevice.htm

I can't vouch for it being 100% correct, but it is similar to what
I've read before about the Toyota hybrid drive. Basically, by
varying the motor/generator1 speed, one can control the ICE rpm.

It's pretty neat, but also complex. 2 high-power
motor/generators.

Another reference:
http://www.me.utexas.edu/~tomr/body.htm

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In article <elmop-8C14D3.16443425032005@text.usenetserver.com>, "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:

>No, the Prius came out after the Insight. Insight: 2000. Prius:
>2001. Civic Hybrid: 2003.

In the US, you are correct. But the Prius was released in Japan
and Europe before the Insight was produced. Honda reportedly
rushed out the Insight to beat Toyota to the US market.
Succesfully I would say as a lot of people think Honda made the
first commercial hybrid!

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In article <elmop-8C14D3.16443425032005@text.usenetserver.com>, "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:

>No, the Prius came out after the Insight. Insight: 2000. Prius:
>2001. Civic Hybrid: 2003.

In the US, you are correct. But the Prius was released in Japan
and Europe before the Insight was produced. Honda reportedly
rushed out the Insight to beat Toyota to the US market.
Succesfully I would say as a lot of people think Honda made the
first commercial hybrid!

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> No, the Prius came out after the Insight. Insight: 2000. Prius:
> 2001. Civic Hybrid: 2003.

OK fine, is this better? =)

I also was under the impression that hybrids were only AT
(probably because Prius was the first hybrid to be popularized in the
mainstream US media).

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> No, the Prius came out after the Insight. Insight: 2000. Prius:
> 2001. Civic Hybrid: 2003.

OK fine, is this better? =)

I also was under the impression that hybrids were only AT
(probably because Prius was the first hybrid to be popularized in the
mainstream US media).

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

"Dave" <dm@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:2I%0e.111741$H05.63231@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. .
> In article <d21tgu$7et$1@blue.rahul.net>, dold@XReXXItXsX.usenet.us.com
> wrote:
>
>>Describe that a little more, if you would. I have a Honda Civic Hybrid
>>with CVT, and I understand how it works. The IMA is fixed to the
>>crankshaft, so they are both turning at the same speed. The CVT is a
>>steel
>>belt on movable "pinch" pulleys to provide the variable ratio.
>>
>>I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the
>>Escape. Short of buying the service manual, can you point to a decent
>>reference for how it really works? I've seen some misguided crud, but no
>>real explanation. I assume that it is the same as the Prius, so reference
>>to that would be good, unless I can spot a discrepancy.
>
> Try this treatise:
> http://home.earthlink.
> net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/Understanding/PowerSplitDevice.htm
>
> I can't vouch for it being 100% correct, but it is similar to what
> I've read before about the Toyota hybrid drive. Basically, by
> varying the motor/generator1 speed, one can control the ICE rpm.
>
> It's pretty neat, but also complex. 2 high-power
> motor/generators.
>
That site is by Graham Davies, one of the genuine Prius gurus. He writes
that he looked into it very carefully, and it is true - under many
conditions MG1 is used as a generator to provide power to MG2. It makes my
head hurt to visualize it.

Mike

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

"Dave" <dm@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:2I%0e.111741$H05.63231@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. .
> In article <d21tgu$7et$1@blue.rahul.net>, dold@XReXXItXsX.usenet.us.com
> wrote:
>
>>Describe that a little more, if you would. I have a Honda Civic Hybrid
>>with CVT, and I understand how it works. The IMA is fixed to the
>>crankshaft, so they are both turning at the same speed. The CVT is a
>>steel
>>belt on movable "pinch" pulleys to provide the variable ratio.
>>
>>I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the
>>Escape. Short of buying the service manual, can you point to a decent
>>reference for how it really works? I've seen some misguided crud, but no
>>real explanation. I assume that it is the same as the Prius, so reference
>>to that would be good, unless I can spot a discrepancy.
>
> Try this treatise:
> http://home.earthlink.
> net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/Understanding/PowerSplitDevice.htm
>
> I can't vouch for it being 100% correct, but it is similar to what
> I've read before about the Toyota hybrid drive. Basically, by
> varying the motor/generator1 speed, one can control the ICE rpm.
>
> It's pretty neat, but also complex. 2 high-power
> motor/generators.
>
That site is by Graham Davies, one of the genuine Prius gurus. He writes
that he looked into it very carefully, and it is true - under many
conditions MG1 is used as a generator to provide power to MG2. It makes my
head hurt to visualize it.

Mike

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In rec.autos.makers.honda Elmo P. Shagnasty <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
> The Toyota is a complex system; the Honda is simple and straightforward.
> Integrated Motor Assist is probably more bang for the buck.

I think of the IMA as an electric turbocharger. It uses mostly wasted
energy later, to add some power to the little tiny gas engine that is able
to get high mileage. I wonder what kind of mileage the civic would get if
it just had the 1300cc engine, and no IMA. It is very simple to
understand, and rather obvious in operation.

I don't understand the Escape very well yet. Definitely a different
animal, and a precursor for the heavy hybrid (no pun towards the weight of
the SUV). The electric-only mode could be extended with a heavier battery
set and different logic so that it could operate completely electric and be
charged at night, and yet have the gas engine for long distance usage.
I have seen 99mpg on my average mileage display over a 10 mile stretch of
commute traffic. Then the engine starts, and the mpg plummets ;-)

I picture today's Escape as a Gas-Electric Hybrid, where the next
generation might be an Electric-Gas Hybrid.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

In rec.autos.makers.honda Elmo P. Shagnasty <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
> The Toyota is a complex system; the Honda is simple and straightforward.
> Integrated Motor Assist is probably more bang for the buck.

I think of the IMA as an electric turbocharger. It uses mostly wasted
energy later, to add some power to the little tiny gas engine that is able
to get high mileage. I wonder what kind of mileage the civic would get if
it just had the 1300cc engine, and no IMA. It is very simple to
understand, and rather obvious in operation.

I don't understand the Escape very well yet. Definitely a different
animal, and a precursor for the heavy hybrid (no pun towards the weight of
the SUV). The electric-only mode could be extended with a heavier battery
set and different logic so that it could operate completely electric and be
charged at night, and yet have the gas engine for long distance usage.
I have seen 99mpg on my average mileage display over a 10 mile stretch of
commute traffic. Then the engine starts, and the mpg plummets ;-)

I picture today's Escape as a Gas-Electric Hybrid, where the next
generation might be an Electric-Gas Hybrid.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

"Dave" <dm@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:BiY0e.95910$vK5.73246@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> In article <YpKdnQxTZIHtl9nfRVn-ig@sedona.net>, "Michael Pardee"
> <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>
>>It's the Toyota system as used in the Prius and Ford Escape that can't
>>have
>>a manual; in fact, it can't have any transmission at all. It has an
>>"electronic cvt" that is really just a pair of motor/generators in a
>>differential arrangement with the gas engine... there is no place to put a
>>transmission in the power train. If it were called a "virtual cvt" it
>>would
>>be less confusing.
>
> Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "transmission", but
> I'd definitely say they have one! They have a set of planetary
> gears (which automatic transmissions also use). And yes, as you
> wrote, motor/generator is used to modify the gear ratio between
> the ICE and the driveshaft, as well as supply torque.

By that way of looking at it, SHS has two transmissions, like pretty much
all cars. The planetary "power split device" is a skewed differential and
could have been made like a typical differential if ruggedness weren't
important. No gears ever shift, there are no clutches or belts or hydraulics
or solenoids or forks. It is all fixed gearing, which makes it different
from automatic transmissions. The device should be bulletproof as long as
the lubricant is kept up, without the weaknesses of manual trannies (no
synchros, no clutch, no gear crunches possible).

The way I describe the system is to visualize an engine connected straight
through to a differential. Instead of wheels, there is a motor/generator on
each side of that differential. Connect another conventional differential
and wheel setup to one side, and there you have it.

Mike

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

"Dave" <dm@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:BiY0e.95910$vK5.73246@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> In article <YpKdnQxTZIHtl9nfRVn-ig@sedona.net>, "Michael Pardee"
> <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>
>>It's the Toyota system as used in the Prius and Ford Escape that can't
>>have
>>a manual; in fact, it can't have any transmission at all. It has an
>>"electronic cvt" that is really just a pair of motor/generators in a
>>differential arrangement with the gas engine... there is no place to put a
>>transmission in the power train. If it were called a "virtual cvt" it
>>would
>>be less confusing.
>
> Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "transmission", but
> I'd definitely say they have one! They have a set of planetary
> gears (which automatic transmissions also use). And yes, as you
> wrote, motor/generator is used to modify the gear ratio between
> the ICE and the driveshaft, as well as supply torque.

By that way of looking at it, SHS has two transmissions, like pretty much
all cars. The planetary "power split device" is a skewed differential and
could have been made like a typical differential if ruggedness weren't
important. No gears ever shift, there are no clutches or belts or hydraulics
or solenoids or forks. It is all fixed gearing, which makes it different
from automatic transmissions. The device should be bulletproof as long as
the lubricant is kept up, without the weaknesses of manual trannies (no
synchros, no clutch, no gear crunches possible).

The way I describe the system is to visualize an engine connected straight
through to a differential. Instead of wheels, there is a motor/generator on
each side of that differential. Connect another conventional differential
and wheel setup to one side, and there you have it.

Mike

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

"Dave" <dm@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:83T0e.110897$H05.86235@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. .
> In article <4243de3a_4@x-privat.org>, "dragon" <dondragon38@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>>> >
>>> Well, now the trend is to have both manual and auto trannies on the same
>>car
>>> which is called million different names such as autostick, tiptronic,
>>> easytronic, multimod manual, activeselect or whatever...
>>
>>of course, i didn't mean that these cars have 2 transmissions...just one
>>with with the capabilities of both both manual and auto transmission...
>
> Yes, I wonder how they (NHTSA) are defining "manual". Some of the
> ones you listed are typical torque converter ("slushboxes") where
> they just add a manual shifting mode. Others have actual manual
> trannies, just with an electronic clutch, ex: BMW's SMG. I
> believe your "Easytronic" is the latter?
>

My mind drifts back to earlier days....

Around 1970 Renault offered an unusual (okay, *everything* about Renault was
unusual, at least in those days) automatic transmission for the R16. It was
a solenoid shifted manual transmission with a powdered iron clutch. The
clutch was an electromagnet with steel clutch plates inside and the space
inbetween was packed with iron filings. When the magnet was energized the
clutch engaged. (I don't know what did the shifting.) I hear their unique
creation had reliability problems - I wonder why ;-)

The 70s sure were not the good old days of automotive technology!

Mike

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

"Dave" <dm@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:83T0e.110897$H05.86235@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. .
> In article <4243de3a_4@x-privat.org>, "dragon" <dondragon38@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>>> >
>>> Well, now the trend is to have both manual and auto trannies on the same
>>car
>>> which is called million different names such as autostick, tiptronic,
>>> easytronic, multimod manual, activeselect or whatever...
>>
>>of course, i didn't mean that these cars have 2 transmissions...just one
>>with with the capabilities of both both manual and auto transmission...
>
> Yes, I wonder how they (NHTSA) are defining "manual". Some of the
> ones you listed are typical torque converter ("slushboxes") where
> they just add a manual shifting mode. Others have actual manual
> trannies, just with an electronic clutch, ex: BMW's SMG. I
> believe your "Easytronic" is the latter?
>

My mind drifts back to earlier days....

Around 1970 Renault offered an unusual (okay, *everything* about Renault was
unusual, at least in those days) automatic transmission for the R16. It was
a solenoid shifted manual transmission with a powdered iron clutch. The
clutch was an electromagnet with steel clutch plates inside and the space
inbetween was packed with iron filings. When the magnet was energized the
clutch engaged. (I don't know what did the shifting.) I hear their unique
creation had reliability problems - I wonder why ;-)

The 70s sure were not the good old days of automotive technology!

Mike

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

<dold@XReXXItXsX.usenet.us.com> wrote in message
news:d22387$b83$1@blue.rahul.net...
> In rec.autos.makers.honda Elmo P. Shagnasty <elmop@nastydesigns.com>
> wrote:
>> The Toyota is a complex system; the Honda is simple and straightforward.
>> Integrated Motor Assist is probably more bang for the buck.
>
> I think of the IMA as an electric turbocharger. It uses mostly wasted
> energy later, to add some power to the little tiny gas engine that is able
> to get high mileage. I wonder what kind of mileage the civic would get if
> it just had the 1300cc engine, and no IMA. It is very simple to
> understand, and rather obvious in operation.
>
Honda tends to refer to IMA that way, as "electric supercharging" or
something like that. Honda's approach is fundamentally different from
Toyota's - Honda is more focused on the aspect of hybridization as a way of
making acceleration performance independent of engine size. The engine is
sized for hill-climbing capability, and electric is added to give it more
snap. In theory, Honda's IMA can be used to make cars with better
power/weight ratios for acceleration than is possible with an engine alone.
Honda's DualNote concept car
(http://www.supercars.net/cars/2001@$Honda@$Dualnote%20Conceptx.html) was
introduced in 2001, and Honda engineers reported the electric assist gave it
off-the-line acceleration equivalent to a 600 hp engine. When we realize the
technology is in its infancy, the future is amazing indeed.

Mike

Re: It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
 

<dold@XReXXItXsX.usenet.us.com> wrote in message
news:d22387$b83$1@blue.rahul.net...
> In rec.autos.makers.honda Elmo P. Shagnasty <elmop@nastydesigns.com>
> wrote:
>> The Toyota is a complex system; the Honda is simple and straightforward.
>> Integrated Motor Assist is probably more bang for the buck.
>
> I think of the IMA as an electric turbocharger. It uses mostly wasted
> energy later, to add some power to the little tiny gas engine that is able
> to get high mileage. I wonder what kind of mileage the civic would get if
> it just had the 1300cc engine, and no IMA. It is very simple to
> understand, and rather obvious in operation.
>
Honda tends to refer to IMA that way, as "electric supercharging" or
something like that. Honda's approach is fundamentally different from
Toyota's - Honda is more focused on the aspect of hybridization as a way of
making acceleration performance independent of engine size. The engine is
sized for hill-climbing capability, and electric is added to give it more
snap. In theory, Honda's IMA can be used to make cars with better
power/weight ratios for acceleration than is possible with an engine alone.
Honda's DualNote concept car
(http://www.supercars.net/cars/2001@$Honda@$Dualnote%20Conceptx.html) was
introduced in 2001, and Honda engineers reported the electric assist gave it
off-the-line acceleration equivalent to a 600 hp engine. When we realize the
technology is in its infancy, the future is amazing indeed.

Mike