Jim Yanik

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:O86dndK2eopM1HvYnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> Jim Yanik wrote:
>> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in
>> news5-dnZszfuwcT3jYnZ2dnUVZ_tyinZ2d@sedona.net:
>>
>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>> news:baOdnS98H6NMGnjYnZ2dnUVZ_oKnnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>>> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:gomdnekq3vCgnHjYnZ2dnUVZ_qjinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>>>>> Mike wrote:
>>>>>>> Our 1999 Odyssey has been shocking the heck out of us all
>>>>>>> winter. We've had this vehicle for a few years now and I never
>>>>>>> remember it being this bad. I just ordered a "stop shock"
>>>>>>> grounding strap from eBay. I'm hoping this will help a lot. I
>>>>>>> called all the local auto- parts stores and not one of them
>>>>>>> carried this item.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyhow, have any of you had luck with grounding straps?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> try a new alternator belt from bando. anti-static.
>>>>> Now you've got me curious - doesn't the alternator belt just run
>>>>> from one grounded pulley to another?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> that's what i'da thunk, but my 89 used to jolt me until i put on
>>>> that belt. it's got "anti-static, oil & heat resistant" written on
>>>> it - didn't order it specially. and i'm reporting the result!
>>> Strange but true, I guess! Definitely worth a try.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Static builds up on your body from sliding your butt across the
>> fabric seat,as you exit.
>> There's no way an alternator belt in the engine compartment would
>> discharge your body charge.
>>
> how is the alternator belt different from the belt in a van de graaff?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_de_Graaff_generator
>

The belt in a Vandegraff generator rubs against a collector brush,inside
the globe. Didn't you look at the diagram? Or read the text?

Also the support tube insulates the two pulleys from each other,unlike a
engine block and metal brackets suporting the alternator.(and ground straps
on the alternator and engine.)

you don't get a charge buildup rubbing an insulator against a metal
object.It's strictly insulators/insulators.


BTW,I have actually held a VDG globe and had discharges from my toes right
through my combat boots,in USAF PMEL tech school.They didn't insulate as
well as the instructor thought they would.Didn't hurt,though.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

jim beam

Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
> news:O86dndK2eopM1HvYnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>
>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in
>>> news5-dnZszfuwcT3jYnZ2dnUVZ_tyinZ2d@sedona.net:
>>>
>>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:baOdnS98H6NMGnjYnZ2dnUVZ_oKnnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>>>> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>>>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:gomdnekq3vCgnHjYnZ2dnUVZ_qjinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>>>>>> Mike wrote:
>>>>>>>> Our 1999 Odyssey has been shocking the heck out of us all
>>>>>>>> winter. We've had this vehicle for a few years now and I never
>>>>>>>> remember it being this bad. I just ordered a "stop shock"
>>>>>>>> grounding strap from eBay. I'm hoping this will help a lot. I
>>>>>>>> called all the local auto- parts stores and not one of them
>>>>>>>> carried this item.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyhow, have any of you had luck with grounding straps?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> try a new alternator belt from bando. anti-static.
>>>>>> Now you've got me curious - doesn't the alternator belt just run
>>>>>> from one grounded pulley to another?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> that's what i'da thunk, but my 89 used to jolt me until i put on
>>>>> that belt. it's got "anti-static, oil & heat resistant" written on
>>>>> it - didn't order it specially. and i'm reporting the result!
>>>> Strange but true, I guess! Definitely worth a try.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Static builds up on your body from sliding your butt across the
>>> fabric seat,as you exit.
>>> There's no way an alternator belt in the engine compartment would
>>> discharge your body charge.
>>>
>> how is the alternator belt different from the belt in a van de graaff?
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_de_Graaff_generator
>>
>
> The belt in a Vandegraff generator rubs against a collector brush,inside
> the globe. Didn't you look at the diagram? Or read the text?

yes i have, thanks. the point you're missing is that there's friction
between dissimilar materials, and that's how a van de graaff generator
works. and whether you care to believe it or not, whether /i/ care to
believe it or not, when i changed belt to this allegedly anti-static
belt, a car that had previously zapped the heck out of me whenever i
went near it, suddenly, magically, stopped. coincidence? try it
yourself and /you/ decide.

>
> Also the support tube insulates the two pulleys from each other,unlike a
> engine block and metal brackets suporting the alternator.(and ground straps
> on the alternator and engine.)
>
> you don't get a charge buildup rubbing an insulator against a metal
> object.It's strictly insulators/insulators.

not true - in the v.d.g., both the positive and negative collectors are
conductors. it's dissimilar materials that cause this effect, not
whether one is a metal.

>
>
> BTW,I have actually held a VDG globe and had discharges from my toes right
> through my combat boots,in USAF PMEL tech school.They didn't insulate as
> well as the instructor thought they would.Didn't hurt,though.
>

Howard Lester

"Jim Yanik" wrote

(There is no shock when I
>> wear real leather dress shoes.) As long as I hold onto that latch when
>> exiting, I receive no shocks whatsoever under any circumstances with
>> any clothing in any season.

> That is because you drain off the charge -as it is generated- by your butt
> sliding across the seat. Now,with the insulating shoes,try to not touch
> the
> chassis and instead brush your knuckles against the ground and see if you
> still get a shock;I doubt you will.

I'm confused about the draining off the charge as I slide across the seat. I
thought I was building up a charge when sliding across the seat. (These are
2004 Accord EX cloth seats. I have had the same issues with previous cars:
'97 Civic and '91 Civic.) And yes, my point was that with the "insulating"
shoes, I don't need to touch the chassis in order to prevent a shock, as
there is none.

When you refer to "the ground," as in brushing my knuckles against the
ground (which is how I normally walk) ;-) do you mean the concrete the car
is sitting on? I suspect you do -- I'll try that today.

Jim Yanik

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:tZqdncCWV47S8HvYnZ2dnUVZ_ragnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> Jim Yanik wrote:
>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
>> news:O86dndK2eopM1HvYnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>
>>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in
>>>> news5-dnZszfuwcT3jYnZ2dnUVZ_tyinZ2d@sedona.net:
>>>>
>>>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:baOdnS98H6NMGnjYnZ2dnUVZ_oKnnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>>>>> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>>>>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:gomdnekq3vCgnHjYnZ2dnUVZ_qjinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>>>>>>> Mike wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Our 1999 Odyssey has been shocking the heck out of us all
>>>>>>>>> winter. We've had this vehicle for a few years now and I never
>>>>>>>>> remember it being this bad. I just ordered a "stop shock"
>>>>>>>>> grounding strap from eBay. I'm hoping this will help a lot.
>>>>>>>>> I called all the local auto- parts stores and not one of them
>>>>>>>>> carried this item.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anyhow, have any of you had luck with grounding straps?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> try a new alternator belt from bando. anti-static.
>>>>>>> Now you've got me curious - doesn't the alternator belt just run
>>>>>>> from one grounded pulley to another?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> that's what i'da thunk, but my 89 used to jolt me until i put on
>>>>>> that belt. it's got "anti-static, oil & heat resistant" written
>>>>>> on it - didn't order it specially. and i'm reporting the result!
>>>>> Strange but true, I guess! Definitely worth a try.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Static builds up on your body from sliding your butt across the
>>>> fabric seat,as you exit.
>>>> There's no way an alternator belt in the engine compartment would
>>>> discharge your body charge.
>>>>
>>> how is the alternator belt different from the belt in a van de
>>> graaff? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_de_Graaff_generator
>>>
>>
>> The belt in a Vandegraff generator rubs against a collector
>> brush,inside the globe. Didn't you look at the diagram? Or read the
>> text?
>
> yes i have, thanks. the point you're missing is that there's friction
> between dissimilar materials, and that's how a van de graaff generator
> works. and whether you care to believe it or not, whether /i/ care to
> believe it or not, when i changed belt to this allegedly anti-static
> belt, a car that had previously zapped the heck out of me whenever i
> went near it, suddenly, magically, stopped. coincidence? try it
> yourself and /you/ decide.
>
>>
>> Also the support tube insulates the two pulleys from each
>> other,unlike a engine block and metal brackets suporting the
>> alternator.(and ground straps on the alternator and engine.)
>>
>> you don't get a charge buildup rubbing an insulator against a metal
>> object.It's strictly insulators/insulators.
>
> not true - in the v.d.g., both the positive and negative collectors
> are conductors. it's dissimilar materials that cause this effect, not
> whether one is a metal.
>
>>
>>
>> BTW,I have actually held a VDG globe and had discharges from my toes
>> right through my combat boots,in USAF PMEL tech school.They didn't
>> insulate as well as the instructor thought they would.Didn't
>> hurt,though.
>>
>

STATIC electric charges are generated between dissimilar INSULATORS,not a
metal and an insulator.You can rub a wool cloth on a metal all day and not
generate a charge of any significance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_...27_electricity

Static charge generation

The presence of surface charge imbalance means that the objects will
exhibit attractive or repulsive forces. This surface charge imbalance,
which leads to static electricity, can be generated by touching two
differing surfaces together and then separating them due to the phenomena
of contact electrification and the triboelectric effect. Rubbing two non-
conductive objects generates a great amount of static electricity. This is
not just the result of friction; two non-conductive surfaces can become
charged by just being placed one on top of the other. Since most surfaces
have a rough texture, it takes longer to achieve charging through contact
than through rubbing. Rubbing objects together increases amount of adhesive
contact between the two surfaces. Usually insulators, i.e., substances that
do not conduct electricity, are good at both generating, and holding, a
surface charge. Some examples of these substances are rubber, plastic,
glass, and pith. Conductive objects only rarely generate charge imbalance
except, for example, when a metal surface is impacted by solid or liquid
nonconductors. The charge that is transferred during contact
electrification is stored on the surface of each object. Static electric
generators, devices which produce very high voltage at very low current
(such as the Van de Graaf generator or Wimshurst machine) and used for
classroom physics demonstrations, rely on this effect.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Jim Yanik

"Howard Lester" <heylester@dakotacom.net> wrote in
news:12udlq6n1d53p0c@corp.supernews.com:

>
> "Jim Yanik" wrote
>
> (There is no shock when I
>>> wear real leather dress shoes.) As long as I hold onto that latch
>>> when exiting, I receive no shocks whatsoever under any circumstances
>>> with any clothing in any season.
>
>> That is because you drain off the charge -as it is generated- by your
>> butt sliding across the seat. Now,with the insulating shoes,try to
>> not touch the
>> chassis and instead brush your knuckles against the ground and see if
>> you still get a shock;I doubt you will.
>
> I'm confused about the draining off the charge as I slide across the
> seat.

When you hold onto the door frame and slide.
When you aren't "grounded" is when your body builds up a significant
charge.

> I thought I was building up a charge when sliding across the
> seat. (These are 2004 Accord EX cloth seats. I have had the same
> issues with previous cars: '97 Civic and '91 Civic.) And yes, my point
> was that with the "insulating" shoes, I don't need to touch the
> chassis in order to prevent a shock, as there is none.

Insulating shoes would RETAIN the body's charge,conducting shoes would
drain it(if contacting a "ground");that's how an anti-static strap or shoe
works in electronics repair(I'm an electronics tech),it has a resistor and
connects to a earth ground to slowly drain off charges -as they are
generated- by your clothes.
They actually make shoes designed to drain static charges,you have to be on
a conductive mat or surface.they make static draining floor coatings,too.
I had to take a anti-static course every year as part of ISO9000 procedures
for my company,wore anti-static lab coats,wrist AND heel straps,and tested
every day to be sure they were working.I used to work on equipment
sensitive enough to measure the charge generated when I moved just an arm
or leg when ungrounded.

>
> When you refer to "the ground," as in brushing my knuckles against the
> ground (which is how I normally walk) ;-) do you mean the concrete the
> car is sitting on? I suspect you do -- I'll try that today.
>
>
>

a reference;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_...27_electricity


sit naked on the seat,and you won't build up a charge either.Skin itself is
not a good static charge generator.Don't do it in public,though!!
Then the police will charge you!

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Howard Lester

"Jim Yanik" wrote

>> I'm confused about the draining off the charge as I slide across the
>> seat.

> When you hold onto the door frame and slide.

Since that sentence is incomplete, I don't know what you're saying.

> When you aren't "grounded" is when your body builds up a significant
> charge.

OK....

Regardless, today I wore my "bad" shoes and got out of the car without
holding onto the door frame. I, uh, dragged my knuckles across the parking
garage floor, and when I touched my car there was no shock. Pretty good!
However, I tried the same in my home's garage, which has metal rods in the
concrete. When I dragged my knuckles across THAT floor, I got a shock.

jim beam

Jim Yanik wrote:
<snip for brevity>
>
> STATIC electric charges are generated between dissimilar INSULATORS,not a
> metal and an insulator.You can rub a wool cloth on a metal all day and not
> generate a charge of any significance.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_...27_electricity
>
> Static charge generation
>
> The presence of surface charge imbalance means that the objects will
> exhibit attractive or repulsive forces. This surface charge imbalance,
> which leads to static electricity, can be generated by touching two
> differing surfaces together and then separating them due to the phenomena
> of contact electrification and the triboelectric effect. Rubbing two non-
> conductive objects generates a great amount of static electricity. This is
> not just the result of friction; two non-conductive surfaces can become
> charged by just being placed one on top of the other. Since most surfaces
> have a rough texture, it takes longer to achieve charging through contact
> than through rubbing. Rubbing objects together increases amount of adhesive
> contact between the two surfaces. Usually insulators, i.e., substances that
> do not conduct electricity, are good at both generating, and holding, a
> surface charge. Some examples of these substances are rubber, plastic,
> glass, and pith. Conductive objects only rarely generate charge imbalance
> except, for example, when a metal surface is impacted by solid or liquid
> nonconductors. The charge that is transferred during contact
> electrification is stored on the surface of each object. Static electric
> generators, devices which produce very high voltage at very low current
> (such as the Van de Graaf generator or Wimshurst machine) and used for
> classroom physics demonstrations, rely on this effect.
>

1. you need to check into the materials used in a v.d.g. generator.
2. you need to try the belt experiment i did.

Joe LaVigne

On Thu, 01 Mar 2007 17:12:27 -0700, Howard Lester wrote:

> "Jim Yanik" wrote
>
>>> I'm confused about the draining off the charge as I slide across the
>>> seat.
>
>> When you hold onto the door frame and slide.
>
> Since that sentence is incomplete, I don't know what you're saying.
>
>> When you aren't "grounded" is when your body builds up a significant
>> charge.
>
> OK....
>
> Regardless, today I wore my "bad" shoes and got out of the car without
> holding onto the door frame. I, uh, dragged my knuckles across the parking
> garage floor, and when I touched my car there was no shock. Pretty good!
> However, I tried the same in my home's garage, which has metal rods in the
> concrete. When I dragged my knuckles across THAT floor, I got a shock.

Not sure if you are joking or not. I am going to approach it as if you
are not.

When he said "ground", he didn't mean the ground you walk on. He meant
electrical ground. IE the body of the car. Hold the door frame, slide
across the seat and exit the vehicle, maintaining contact with the metal
the entire time. You will not build a charge.

Howard Lester

"Joe LaVigne" wrote

>>When I dragged my knuckles across THAT floor, I got a shock.

> Not sure if you are joking or not. I am going to approach it as if you
> are not.
>
> When he said "ground", he didn't mean the ground you walk on. He meant
> electrical ground. IE the body of the car. Hold the door frame, slide
> across the seat and exit the vehicle, maintaining contact with the metal
> the entire time. You will not build a charge.

I wasn't joking, because that is what he intimated. For years I have done
exactly what you describe, and it is foolproof. Jim seemed to have suggested
a different method, and, having tried it yesterday, it apparently does work
(as long as there's no metal in the concrete!).