main relay vs ignition switch while driving
#61
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
Burt wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message news:VO6dneCrj76B2p7YnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>> the design's arguable. it's certainly cheap - one of the lowest quality
>> components on the whole vehicle.
>
> These components are of high quality. They're design to lasts
> maybe 20 years or more. The problem lies on the soldering
> process they use. Change the process and the problem is
> solved.
>
well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6 on
88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a vehicle
was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently had problems
with it for some time prior to selling.
regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
[cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still say
this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is low
quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to prevent
intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say mitsuba knew
exactly what they were doing with this relay right from the start
[relays are old technology and their problems are well known] and that
they elected to go for what they knew would result in life limitation.
life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed. on
disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated breaking the
electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the rivet was held in
tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep over time, especially
when kept warm. life limitation? you bet! there was no other
practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo. a fuse would have
protected against overload and the spring had no mechanical function.
anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and the clock worked again,
just like a repaired relay.
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message news:VO6dneCrj76B2p7YnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>> the design's arguable. it's certainly cheap - one of the lowest quality
>> components on the whole vehicle.
>
> These components are of high quality. They're design to lasts
> maybe 20 years or more. The problem lies on the soldering
> process they use. Change the process and the problem is
> solved.
>
well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6 on
88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a vehicle
was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently had problems
with it for some time prior to selling.
regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
[cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still say
this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is low
quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to prevent
intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say mitsuba knew
exactly what they were doing with this relay right from the start
[relays are old technology and their problems are well known] and that
they elected to go for what they knew would result in life limitation.
life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed. on
disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated breaking the
electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the rivet was held in
tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep over time, especially
when kept warm. life limitation? you bet! there was no other
practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo. a fuse would have
protected against overload and the spring had no mechanical function.
anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and the clock worked again,
just like a repaired relay.
#62
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
"Burt" <burtsquareman@none.com> wrote in message
news:GYVMg.18$7C7.7@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
> These components are of high quality. They're design to lasts
> maybe 20 years or more. The problem lies on the soldering
> process they use. Change the process and the problem is
> solved.
>
Something like that. The crux of the problem is that the solder is used to
support the relays instead of the relays being cemented to the board and
solder used to stabilize the connection. Beginners are taught not to use
solder for strength or for carrying current, but I guess relay module mfrs
aren't bound by the same code. They use solder for both simultaneously.
Mike
news:GYVMg.18$7C7.7@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
> These components are of high quality. They're design to lasts
> maybe 20 years or more. The problem lies on the soldering
> process they use. Change the process and the problem is
> solved.
>
Something like that. The crux of the problem is that the solder is used to
support the relays instead of the relays being cemented to the board and
solder used to stabilize the connection. Beginners are taught not to use
solder for strength or for carrying current, but I guess relay module mfrs
aren't bound by the same code. They use solder for both simultaneously.
Mike
#63
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
"Burt" <burtsquareman@none.com> wrote in message
news:GYVMg.18$7C7.7@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
> These components are of high quality. They're design to lasts
> maybe 20 years or more. The problem lies on the soldering
> process they use. Change the process and the problem is
> solved.
>
Something like that. The crux of the problem is that the solder is used to
support the relays instead of the relays being cemented to the board and
solder used to stabilize the connection. Beginners are taught not to use
solder for strength or for carrying current, but I guess relay module mfrs
aren't bound by the same code. They use solder for both simultaneously.
Mike
news:GYVMg.18$7C7.7@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
> These components are of high quality. They're design to lasts
> maybe 20 years or more. The problem lies on the soldering
> process they use. Change the process and the problem is
> solved.
>
Something like that. The crux of the problem is that the solder is used to
support the relays instead of the relays being cemented to the board and
solder used to stabilize the connection. Beginners are taught not to use
solder for strength or for carrying current, but I guess relay module mfrs
aren't bound by the same code. They use solder for both simultaneously.
Mike
#64
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
"Burt" <burtsquareman@none.com> wrote in message
news:GYVMg.18$7C7.7@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
> These components are of high quality. They're design to lasts
> maybe 20 years or more. The problem lies on the soldering
> process they use. Change the process and the problem is
> solved.
>
Something like that. The crux of the problem is that the solder is used to
support the relays instead of the relays being cemented to the board and
solder used to stabilize the connection. Beginners are taught not to use
solder for strength or for carrying current, but I guess relay module mfrs
aren't bound by the same code. They use solder for both simultaneously.
Mike
news:GYVMg.18$7C7.7@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
> These components are of high quality. They're design to lasts
> maybe 20 years or more. The problem lies on the soldering
> process they use. Change the process and the problem is
> solved.
>
Something like that. The crux of the problem is that the solder is used to
support the relays instead of the relays being cemented to the board and
solder used to stabilize the connection. Beginners are taught not to use
solder for strength or for carrying current, but I guess relay module mfrs
aren't bound by the same code. They use solder for both simultaneously.
Mike
#65
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
"Burt" <burtsquareman@none.com> wrote in message
news:GYVMg.19$7C7.17@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
> The true question now is what is causing the joints to continue to
> make contact on a running car hours after a heat soak.
>
Disclaimer - only my guess:
Lead alloys seem to make better contact when carrying current, as seen in
car batteries with broken internal connections. I realize battery terminals
do the opposite because of powerful corrosive influences. Anyway, I suspect
the current creates a hot spot that effectively welds a small spot in the
connection and adjusts itself in size so that the connection stays slightly
below the melting point. When the current stops and the spot cools it is
prone to cracking, and something must change when the whole thing cools off
even more.
As I said, just a guess.
Mike
news:GYVMg.19$7C7.17@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
> The true question now is what is causing the joints to continue to
> make contact on a running car hours after a heat soak.
>
Disclaimer - only my guess:
Lead alloys seem to make better contact when carrying current, as seen in
car batteries with broken internal connections. I realize battery terminals
do the opposite because of powerful corrosive influences. Anyway, I suspect
the current creates a hot spot that effectively welds a small spot in the
connection and adjusts itself in size so that the connection stays slightly
below the melting point. When the current stops and the spot cools it is
prone to cracking, and something must change when the whole thing cools off
even more.
As I said, just a guess.
Mike
#66
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
"Burt" <burtsquareman@none.com> wrote in message
news:GYVMg.19$7C7.17@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
> The true question now is what is causing the joints to continue to
> make contact on a running car hours after a heat soak.
>
Disclaimer - only my guess:
Lead alloys seem to make better contact when carrying current, as seen in
car batteries with broken internal connections. I realize battery terminals
do the opposite because of powerful corrosive influences. Anyway, I suspect
the current creates a hot spot that effectively welds a small spot in the
connection and adjusts itself in size so that the connection stays slightly
below the melting point. When the current stops and the spot cools it is
prone to cracking, and something must change when the whole thing cools off
even more.
As I said, just a guess.
Mike
news:GYVMg.19$7C7.17@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
> The true question now is what is causing the joints to continue to
> make contact on a running car hours after a heat soak.
>
Disclaimer - only my guess:
Lead alloys seem to make better contact when carrying current, as seen in
car batteries with broken internal connections. I realize battery terminals
do the opposite because of powerful corrosive influences. Anyway, I suspect
the current creates a hot spot that effectively welds a small spot in the
connection and adjusts itself in size so that the connection stays slightly
below the melting point. When the current stops and the spot cools it is
prone to cracking, and something must change when the whole thing cools off
even more.
As I said, just a guess.
Mike
#67
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
"Burt" <burtsquareman@none.com> wrote in message
news:GYVMg.19$7C7.17@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
> The true question now is what is causing the joints to continue to
> make contact on a running car hours after a heat soak.
>
Disclaimer - only my guess:
Lead alloys seem to make better contact when carrying current, as seen in
car batteries with broken internal connections. I realize battery terminals
do the opposite because of powerful corrosive influences. Anyway, I suspect
the current creates a hot spot that effectively welds a small spot in the
connection and adjusts itself in size so that the connection stays slightly
below the melting point. When the current stops and the spot cools it is
prone to cracking, and something must change when the whole thing cools off
even more.
As I said, just a guess.
Mike
news:GYVMg.19$7C7.17@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
> The true question now is what is causing the joints to continue to
> make contact on a running car hours after a heat soak.
>
Disclaimer - only my guess:
Lead alloys seem to make better contact when carrying current, as seen in
car batteries with broken internal connections. I realize battery terminals
do the opposite because of powerful corrosive influences. Anyway, I suspect
the current creates a hot spot that effectively welds a small spot in the
connection and adjusts itself in size so that the connection stays slightly
below the melting point. When the current stops and the spot cools it is
prone to cracking, and something must change when the whole thing cools off
even more.
As I said, just a guess.
Mike
#68
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message newsqWdnSdlKqlVq5nYnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6 on
> 88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a vehicle
> was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently had problems
> with it for some time prior to selling.
Yeah, the solder will fail in 8-10 years. But it's the
electrical components that will last.
> regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
> elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
> thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
> problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
> different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
> [cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
> crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still say
> this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is low
> quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to prevent
> intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say mitsuba knew
> exactly what they were doing with this relay right from the start
> [relays are old technology and their problems are well known] and that
> they elected to go for what they knew would result in life limitation.
Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
> life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed. on
> disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated breaking the
> electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the rivet was held in
> tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep over time, especially
> when kept warm. life limitation? you bet! there was no other
> practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo. a fuse would have
> protected against overload and the spring had no mechanical function.
> anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and the clock worked again,
> just like a repaired relay.
I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
> well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6 on
> 88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a vehicle
> was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently had problems
> with it for some time prior to selling.
Yeah, the solder will fail in 8-10 years. But it's the
electrical components that will last.
> regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
> elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
> thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
> problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
> different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
> [cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
> crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still say
> this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is low
> quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to prevent
> intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say mitsuba knew
> exactly what they were doing with this relay right from the start
> [relays are old technology and their problems are well known] and that
> they elected to go for what they knew would result in life limitation.
Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
> life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed. on
> disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated breaking the
> electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the rivet was held in
> tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep over time, especially
> when kept warm. life limitation? you bet! there was no other
> practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo. a fuse would have
> protected against overload and the spring had no mechanical function.
> anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and the clock worked again,
> just like a repaired relay.
I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
#69
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message newsqWdnSdlKqlVq5nYnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6 on
> 88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a vehicle
> was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently had problems
> with it for some time prior to selling.
Yeah, the solder will fail in 8-10 years. But it's the
electrical components that will last.
> regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
> elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
> thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
> problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
> different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
> [cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
> crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still say
> this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is low
> quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to prevent
> intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say mitsuba knew
> exactly what they were doing with this relay right from the start
> [relays are old technology and their problems are well known] and that
> they elected to go for what they knew would result in life limitation.
Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
> life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed. on
> disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated breaking the
> electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the rivet was held in
> tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep over time, especially
> when kept warm. life limitation? you bet! there was no other
> practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo. a fuse would have
> protected against overload and the spring had no mechanical function.
> anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and the clock worked again,
> just like a repaired relay.
I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
> well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6 on
> 88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a vehicle
> was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently had problems
> with it for some time prior to selling.
Yeah, the solder will fail in 8-10 years. But it's the
electrical components that will last.
> regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
> elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
> thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
> problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
> different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
> [cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
> crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still say
> this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is low
> quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to prevent
> intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say mitsuba knew
> exactly what they were doing with this relay right from the start
> [relays are old technology and their problems are well known] and that
> they elected to go for what they knew would result in life limitation.
Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
> life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed. on
> disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated breaking the
> electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the rivet was held in
> tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep over time, especially
> when kept warm. life limitation? you bet! there was no other
> practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo. a fuse would have
> protected against overload and the spring had no mechanical function.
> anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and the clock worked again,
> just like a repaired relay.
I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
#70
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message newsqWdnSdlKqlVq5nYnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6 on
> 88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a vehicle
> was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently had problems
> with it for some time prior to selling.
Yeah, the solder will fail in 8-10 years. But it's the
electrical components that will last.
> regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
> elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
> thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
> problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
> different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
> [cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
> crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still say
> this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is low
> quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to prevent
> intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say mitsuba knew
> exactly what they were doing with this relay right from the start
> [relays are old technology and their problems are well known] and that
> they elected to go for what they knew would result in life limitation.
Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
> life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed. on
> disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated breaking the
> electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the rivet was held in
> tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep over time, especially
> when kept warm. life limitation? you bet! there was no other
> practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo. a fuse would have
> protected against overload and the spring had no mechanical function.
> anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and the clock worked again,
> just like a repaired relay.
I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
> well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6 on
> 88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a vehicle
> was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently had problems
> with it for some time prior to selling.
Yeah, the solder will fail in 8-10 years. But it's the
electrical components that will last.
> regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
> elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
> thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
> problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
> different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
> [cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
> crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still say
> this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is low
> quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to prevent
> intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say mitsuba knew
> exactly what they were doing with this relay right from the start
> [relays are old technology and their problems are well known] and that
> they elected to go for what they knew would result in life limitation.
Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
> life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed. on
> disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated breaking the
> electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the rivet was held in
> tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep over time, especially
> when kept warm. life limitation? you bet! there was no other
> practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo. a fuse would have
> protected against overload and the spring had no mechanical function.
> anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and the clock worked again,
> just like a repaired relay.
I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
#71
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
Burt wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message newsqWdnSdlKqlVq5nYnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>> well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6 on
>> 88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a vehicle
>> was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently had problems
>> with it for some time prior to selling.
>
> Yeah, the solder will fail in 8-10 years. But it's the
> electrical components that will last.
>
>> regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
>> elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
>> thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
>> problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
>> different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
>> [cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
>> crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still say
>> this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is low
>> quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to prevent
>> intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say mitsuba knew
>> exactly what they were doing with this relay right from the start
>> [relays are old technology and their problems are well known] and that
>> they elected to go for what they knew would result in life limitation.
>
> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
30A rated devices aren't cheap.
>
>> life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed. on
>> disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated breaking the
>> electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the rivet was held in
>> tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep over time, especially
>> when kept warm. life limitation? you bet! there was no other
>> practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo. a fuse would have
>> protected against overload and the spring had no mechanical function.
>> anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and the clock worked again,
>> just like a repaired relay.
>
> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead rivet
when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message newsqWdnSdlKqlVq5nYnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>> well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6 on
>> 88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a vehicle
>> was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently had problems
>> with it for some time prior to selling.
>
> Yeah, the solder will fail in 8-10 years. But it's the
> electrical components that will last.
>
>> regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
>> elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
>> thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
>> problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
>> different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
>> [cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
>> crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still say
>> this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is low
>> quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to prevent
>> intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say mitsuba knew
>> exactly what they were doing with this relay right from the start
>> [relays are old technology and their problems are well known] and that
>> they elected to go for what they knew would result in life limitation.
>
> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
30A rated devices aren't cheap.
>
>> life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed. on
>> disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated breaking the
>> electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the rivet was held in
>> tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep over time, especially
>> when kept warm. life limitation? you bet! there was no other
>> practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo. a fuse would have
>> protected against overload and the spring had no mechanical function.
>> anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and the clock worked again,
>> just like a repaired relay.
>
> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead rivet
when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
#72
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
Burt wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message newsqWdnSdlKqlVq5nYnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>> well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6 on
>> 88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a vehicle
>> was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently had problems
>> with it for some time prior to selling.
>
> Yeah, the solder will fail in 8-10 years. But it's the
> electrical components that will last.
>
>> regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
>> elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
>> thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
>> problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
>> different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
>> [cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
>> crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still say
>> this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is low
>> quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to prevent
>> intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say mitsuba knew
>> exactly what they were doing with this relay right from the start
>> [relays are old technology and their problems are well known] and that
>> they elected to go for what they knew would result in life limitation.
>
> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
30A rated devices aren't cheap.
>
>> life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed. on
>> disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated breaking the
>> electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the rivet was held in
>> tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep over time, especially
>> when kept warm. life limitation? you bet! there was no other
>> practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo. a fuse would have
>> protected against overload and the spring had no mechanical function.
>> anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and the clock worked again,
>> just like a repaired relay.
>
> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead rivet
when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message newsqWdnSdlKqlVq5nYnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>> well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6 on
>> 88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a vehicle
>> was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently had problems
>> with it for some time prior to selling.
>
> Yeah, the solder will fail in 8-10 years. But it's the
> electrical components that will last.
>
>> regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
>> elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
>> thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
>> problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
>> different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
>> [cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
>> crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still say
>> this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is low
>> quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to prevent
>> intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say mitsuba knew
>> exactly what they were doing with this relay right from the start
>> [relays are old technology and their problems are well known] and that
>> they elected to go for what they knew would result in life limitation.
>
> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
30A rated devices aren't cheap.
>
>> life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed. on
>> disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated breaking the
>> electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the rivet was held in
>> tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep over time, especially
>> when kept warm. life limitation? you bet! there was no other
>> practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo. a fuse would have
>> protected against overload and the spring had no mechanical function.
>> anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and the clock worked again,
>> just like a repaired relay.
>
> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead rivet
when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
#73
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
Burt wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message newsqWdnSdlKqlVq5nYnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>> well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6 on
>> 88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a vehicle
>> was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently had problems
>> with it for some time prior to selling.
>
> Yeah, the solder will fail in 8-10 years. But it's the
> electrical components that will last.
>
>> regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
>> elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
>> thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
>> problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
>> different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
>> [cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
>> crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still say
>> this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is low
>> quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to prevent
>> intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say mitsuba knew
>> exactly what they were doing with this relay right from the start
>> [relays are old technology and their problems are well known] and that
>> they elected to go for what they knew would result in life limitation.
>
> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
30A rated devices aren't cheap.
>
>> life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed. on
>> disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated breaking the
>> electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the rivet was held in
>> tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep over time, especially
>> when kept warm. life limitation? you bet! there was no other
>> practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo. a fuse would have
>> protected against overload and the spring had no mechanical function.
>> anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and the clock worked again,
>> just like a repaired relay.
>
> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead rivet
when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message newsqWdnSdlKqlVq5nYnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>> well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6 on
>> 88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a vehicle
>> was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently had problems
>> with it for some time prior to selling.
>
> Yeah, the solder will fail in 8-10 years. But it's the
> electrical components that will last.
>
>> regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
>> elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
>> thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
>> problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
>> different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
>> [cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
>> crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still say
>> this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is low
>> quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to prevent
>> intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say mitsuba knew
>> exactly what they were doing with this relay right from the start
>> [relays are old technology and their problems are well known] and that
>> they elected to go for what they knew would result in life limitation.
>
> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
30A rated devices aren't cheap.
>
>> life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed. on
>> disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated breaking the
>> electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the rivet was held in
>> tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep over time, especially
>> when kept warm. life limitation? you bet! there was no other
>> practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo. a fuse would have
>> protected against overload and the spring had no mechanical function.
>> anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and the clock worked again,
>> just like a repaired relay.
>
> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead rivet
when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
#74
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:qJKdnUFO4qA7gZvYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
> Burt wrote:
>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>> newsqWdnSdlKqlVq5nYnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>
>>> well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6
>>> on 88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a
>>> vehicle was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently
>>> had problems with it for some time prior to selling.
>>
>> Yeah, the solder will fail in 8-10 years. But it's the
>> electrical components that will last.
>>
>>> regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
>>> elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
>>> thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
>>> problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
>>> different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
>>> [cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
>>> crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still
>>> say this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is
>>> low quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to
>>> prevent intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say
>>> mitsuba knew exactly what they were doing with this relay right from
>>> the start [relays are old technology and their problems are well
>>> known] and that they elected to go for what they knew would result
>>> in life limitation.
>>
>> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
>> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
>> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
>
> transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
> 30A rated devices aren't cheap.
They also are much more vulnerable to failure than a simple
electromechanical relay.
Lots of destructive spikes in an auto electrical system.
>
>>
>>> life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed.
>>> on disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated
>>> breaking the electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the
>>> rivet was held in tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep
>>> over time, especially when kept warm. life limitation? you bet!
>>> there was no other practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo.
>>> a fuse would have protected against overload and the spring had no
>>> mechanical function. anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and
>>> the clock worked again, just like a repaired relay.
>>
>> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
>> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
Maybe a bimetal thermal protection device?
If too much current is drawn,the strip bends and breaks the electrical
connection.
>
> it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
> would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
> resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
> besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
> retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead
> rivet when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
>
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
news:qJKdnUFO4qA7gZvYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
> Burt wrote:
>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>> newsqWdnSdlKqlVq5nYnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>
>>> well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6
>>> on 88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a
>>> vehicle was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently
>>> had problems with it for some time prior to selling.
>>
>> Yeah, the solder will fail in 8-10 years. But it's the
>> electrical components that will last.
>>
>>> regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
>>> elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
>>> thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
>>> problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
>>> different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
>>> [cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
>>> crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still
>>> say this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is
>>> low quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to
>>> prevent intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say
>>> mitsuba knew exactly what they were doing with this relay right from
>>> the start [relays are old technology and their problems are well
>>> known] and that they elected to go for what they knew would result
>>> in life limitation.
>>
>> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
>> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
>> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
>
> transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
> 30A rated devices aren't cheap.
They also are much more vulnerable to failure than a simple
electromechanical relay.
Lots of destructive spikes in an auto electrical system.
>
>>
>>> life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed.
>>> on disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated
>>> breaking the electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the
>>> rivet was held in tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep
>>> over time, especially when kept warm. life limitation? you bet!
>>> there was no other practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo.
>>> a fuse would have protected against overload and the spring had no
>>> mechanical function. anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and
>>> the clock worked again, just like a repaired relay.
>>
>> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
>> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
Maybe a bimetal thermal protection device?
If too much current is drawn,the strip bends and breaks the electrical
connection.
>
> it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
> would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
> resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
> besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
> retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead
> rivet when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
>
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
#75
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:qJKdnUFO4qA7gZvYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
> Burt wrote:
>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>> newsqWdnSdlKqlVq5nYnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>
>>> well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6
>>> on 88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a
>>> vehicle was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently
>>> had problems with it for some time prior to selling.
>>
>> Yeah, the solder will fail in 8-10 years. But it's the
>> electrical components that will last.
>>
>>> regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
>>> elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
>>> thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
>>> problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
>>> different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
>>> [cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
>>> crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still
>>> say this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is
>>> low quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to
>>> prevent intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say
>>> mitsuba knew exactly what they were doing with this relay right from
>>> the start [relays are old technology and their problems are well
>>> known] and that they elected to go for what they knew would result
>>> in life limitation.
>>
>> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
>> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
>> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
>
> transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
> 30A rated devices aren't cheap.
They also are much more vulnerable to failure than a simple
electromechanical relay.
Lots of destructive spikes in an auto electrical system.
>
>>
>>> life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed.
>>> on disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated
>>> breaking the electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the
>>> rivet was held in tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep
>>> over time, especially when kept warm. life limitation? you bet!
>>> there was no other practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo.
>>> a fuse would have protected against overload and the spring had no
>>> mechanical function. anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and
>>> the clock worked again, just like a repaired relay.
>>
>> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
>> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
Maybe a bimetal thermal protection device?
If too much current is drawn,the strip bends and breaks the electrical
connection.
>
> it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
> would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
> resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
> besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
> retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead
> rivet when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
>
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
news:qJKdnUFO4qA7gZvYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
> Burt wrote:
>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>> newsqWdnSdlKqlVq5nYnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>
>>> well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6
>>> on 88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a
>>> vehicle was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently
>>> had problems with it for some time prior to selling.
>>
>> Yeah, the solder will fail in 8-10 years. But it's the
>> electrical components that will last.
>>
>>> regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
>>> elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
>>> thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
>>> problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
>>> different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
>>> [cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
>>> crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still
>>> say this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is
>>> low quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to
>>> prevent intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say
>>> mitsuba knew exactly what they were doing with this relay right from
>>> the start [relays are old technology and their problems are well
>>> known] and that they elected to go for what they knew would result
>>> in life limitation.
>>
>> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
>> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
>> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
>
> transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
> 30A rated devices aren't cheap.
They also are much more vulnerable to failure than a simple
electromechanical relay.
Lots of destructive spikes in an auto electrical system.
>
>>
>>> life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed.
>>> on disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated
>>> breaking the electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the
>>> rivet was held in tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep
>>> over time, especially when kept warm. life limitation? you bet!
>>> there was no other practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo.
>>> a fuse would have protected against overload and the spring had no
>>> mechanical function. anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and
>>> the clock worked again, just like a repaired relay.
>>
>> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
>> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
Maybe a bimetal thermal protection device?
If too much current is drawn,the strip bends and breaks the electrical
connection.
>
> it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
> would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
> resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
> besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
> retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead
> rivet when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
>
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net