Howard Lester

"Michael Pardee" wrote

> LOL! When I moved to Arizona from California in 1874

How'dja get here - by covered wagon? :-)

Wail, I think the state's toughened up some aspects of the testing, but were
smart to realize that new cars aren't going to fail, so they've exempted
those that are up to 4 years old. But get this: Mine's now 5 years old and
just today went in for testing. But what did they test? They checked to see
that the car has a gas cap, the check engine light doesn't come on when the
engine is started, and that my OBD connector has "integrity." They did not,
um, sniff the tailpipe as they did on Glen's car.

All that for $12.25. I could have gotten a 16" pizza with mushrooms for that
money, and it'd have tasted a heck of a lot better.

Michael Pardee

"Michael Pardee" <null@null.org> wrote in message
news:RqadnSeEU4fpFtDUnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@sedona.net.. .
> LOL! When I moved to Arizona from California in 1874

Or 1974, whichever <8^P

Greg Campbell

Howard Lester wrote:

> "Michael Pardee" wrote

>> LOL! When I moved to Arizona from California in 1874

> How'dja get here - by covered wagon? :-)

> Wail, I think the state's toughened up some aspects of the testing, but were
> smart to realize that new cars aren't going to fail, so they've exempted
> those that are up to 4 years old. But get this: Mine's now 5 years old and
> just today went in for testing. But what did they test? They checked to see
> that the car has a gas cap, the check engine light doesn't come on when the
> engine is started, and that my OBD connector has "integrity."

Didn't they hook the OBD to their computer? What manner of 'integrity'
were they looking for?

>They did not,
> um, sniff the tailpipe as they did on Glen's car.

Errrr... I'll let the tailpipe crack slide, but I gotta draw the line
at being called 'Glen!' That's low...

> All that for $12.25. I could have gotten a 16" pizza with mushrooms for that
> money, and it'd have tasted a heck of a lot better.

Ah, shrooms. That explains a lot!


Last I looked, Az doesn't conduct any sort of driver's test, either
written or on-road. Show up, pay your $, prove you can detect large
shapes with at least one eye, and you're golden. A license lasts for
something like 20 years. I can't fault the lean government, but you've
got to keep the lax standards in mind and drive very defensively.
Riding a motorcycle developed my sense of paranoia regarding traffic.
It's served me well in Tucson.

-Greg

Howard Lester

"Greg Campbell" wrote

>>They checked to see that the car has a gas cap, the check engine light
>>doesn't come on when the engine is started, and that my OBD connector has
>>"integrity."

> Didn't they hook the OBD to their computer? What manner of 'integrity'
> were they looking for?

>>They did not, um, sniff the tailpipe as they did on Glen's car.

> Errrr... I'll let the tailpipe crack slide, but I gotta draw the line at
> being called 'Glen!' That's low...

Sorry Greg! ;-) I was going on memory.... not very high integrity on my
part. As for the OCD/I mean OBD, I saw the tech hook something up to
something underneath the car's steering column.

>> All that for $12.25. I could have gotten a 16" pizza with mushrooms for
>> that money, and it'd have tasted a heck of a lot better.

> Ah, shrooms. That explains a lot!

Yum - and fresh, too.

> Last I looked, Az doesn't conduct any sort of driver's test, either
> written or on-road. Show up, pay your $, prove you can detect large
> shapes with at least one eye, and you're golden. A license lasts for
> something like 20 years. I can't fault the lean government, but you've
> got to keep the lax standards in mind and drive very defensively. Riding a
> motorcycle developed my sense of paranoia regarding traffic. It's served
> me well in Tucson.

I got a new license about 12 years ago, and yeah, it's good for another 4. I
guess 65 is a magic number. You're right -- I don't recall having had to
take a test even when I moved here, but 12 years ago I had to look into the
little magic viewer to identify colored things. I know "kids" in their 20's
have licenses that are good until they need walkers.

Tegger

"Howard Lester" <heylester@dakotacom.net> wrote in
news:NbKdnaAWIZhU5dDUnZ2dnUVZ_hWdnZ2d@posted.dakot acomip:

> "Tegger" wrote
>
> >> Here's all the history Az DOT has.
>>>
>>> HC Idle HC Load CO Idle CO Load.
>>> (220 ppm) (220 ppm) (1.2%) (1.2%)
>>>
>>> 2004 173 82 .34 .52
>>> 2005 181 74 .21 .46
>>> 2006 207 100 .56 .64
>>> 2007 219 105 .4 .46
>>> 2008 190 157 .6 .57
>
>
>> Numbers are incomplete. No NOx. No CO2.
>>
>> Does AZ not test for NOx?
>
> It's been many years since I've had to have a full test on my car, as
> I kept buying new ones, and new ones are exempt from inspection. But
> seeing the above HC and CO testing, that's about what I remember being
> tested. So I suspect they don't test for NOx, though in reference to
> the catalytic converter inspection (on the right side of this sheet)
> there is a notation about NOx:
>
> http://www.myazcar.com/pdf/emissions_control_equip.pdf
>
> Note that this sheet is titled "Emissins Control Visual
> Inspection...." Our state legislature never had much interest in
> education, you see.
>
>



All right, assuming NOx and CO2 are unavailable, I can think of a few
things off the top of my head. This is in no particular order, so do the
easy, cheap stuff first.

Remember that HC is simply raw gas that's getting out of the combustion
chamber without having been burnt up first. CO is incomplete combustion,
from too much fuel and not enough oxygen (the resulting combusted
molecule has only one oxygen atom instead of two).

1) Check the cat inlet and outlet temperatures.
Take the car out for a drive sufficient to warm the engine up to full
operating temperature. A bit of high-speed driving is a good idea. When
measured with an infrared thermometer, the cat should have an outlet
about 30-100 F higher than the inlet. If in and out are the same, or the
outlet is cooler, the cat is either insufficiently warmed up, or it's no
longer working anymore.

2) Do you have EGR?
Partially-plugged EGR can cause across-the-board high emissions, which
is why I asked about NOx.

3) Retarded ignition timing.
You'd be dumping raw gas directly into the exhaust manifold, expecting
the cat to do the clean up, something it's not designed to do.

4) Dirty injectors with poor spray pattern.
Run a Motorvac service (~$100), which is not a bad idea even if there's
no actual issue to solve.

5) Thermostat too old and stuck open.
Will cause rich running and high emissions.

6) What do the spark plugs look like? What kind and color of deposits on
them? Do they show signs of proper spark? Have you checked each plug
wire to make sure you get a purply-blue spark at each one? (Use a spare
spark plug to check in a dark garage or at night.)

7) How old is the oxygen sensor? Is it OEM or aftermarket?
An old sensor will result in poor control of fuel mixture.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Greg Campbell

Tegger wrote:

> "Howard Lester" <heylester@dakotacom.net> wrote in

>> "Tegger" wrote
>>
>>>> Here's all the history Az DOT has.
>>>>
>>>> HC Idle HC Load CO Idle CO Load.
>>>> (220 ppm) (220 ppm) (1.2%) (1.2%)
>>>>
>>>> 2004 173 82 .34 .52
>>>> 2005 181 74 .21 .46
>>>> 2006 207 100 .56 .64
>>>> 2007 219 105 .4 .46
>>>> 2008 190 157 .6 .57
>>
>>> Numbers are incomplete. No NOx. No CO2.
>>>
>>> Does AZ not test for NOx?

>> Note that this sheet is titled "Emissins Control Visual
>> Inspection...." Our state legislature never had much interest in
>> education, you see.

Gov't cost cutting measures at work. Just ask Vanna; them vowels is
'spensive!

> All right, assuming NOx and CO2 are unavailable, I can think of a few
> things off the top of my head. This is in no particular order, so do the
> easy, cheap stuff first.
>
> Remember that HC is simply raw gas that's getting out of the combustion
> chamber without having been burnt up first. CO is incomplete combustion,
> from too much fuel and not enough oxygen (the resulting combusted
> molecule has only one oxygen atom instead of two).

Yea, I get it.

> 1) Check the cat inlet and outlet temperatures.
> Take the car out for a drive sufficient to warm the engine up to full
> operating temperature. A bit of high-speed driving is a good idea. When
> measured with an infrared thermometer, the cat should have an outlet
> about 30-100 F higher than the inlet. If in and out are the same, or the
> outlet is cooler, the cat is either insufficiently warmed up, or it's no
> longer working anymore.

That I can do. I rescued some high temp thermocouples and a meter from
the dumpster. Will wire up two sensors, one on each end of cat. I
suspect I'll see some temp rise. Even if aging, the cat probably isn't
DOA. Does anyone know what sort of HC levels a cat-free system would
emit? (I know, 'Google.com!')

> 2) Do you have EGR?
> Partially-plugged EGR can cause across-the-board high emissions, which
> is why I asked about NOx.

Got EGR. Ports and valve are clear and working. (Chased all 'round a
CEL a year or two back. Found the valve wasn't rising fast enough. A
small drill to the air metering orifice fixed it up.)

> 3) Retarded ignition timing.
> You'd be dumping raw gas directly into the exhaust manifold, expecting
> the cat to do the clean up, something it's not designed to do.

Haven't ever checked timing. You've got me curious, I'll borrow an
Autozone light and have a look.

> 4) Dirty injectors with poor spray pattern.
> Run a Motorvac service (~$100), which is not a bad idea even if there's
> no actual issue to solve.

Corporate Bastards recently sent my job to Singapore. No spendin'
allowed!

> 5) Thermostat too old and stuck open.
> Will cause rich running and high emissions.

Therm was changed about 2 years back. (Changed the fan temp switch and
figured I'd do everything while I was there.)

How well does the engine coolant temperature sensor hold up?

> 6) What do the spark plugs look like? What kind and color of deposits on
> them? Do they show signs of proper spark? Have you checked each plug
> wire to make sure you get a purply-blue spark at each one? (Use a spare
> spark plug to check in a dark garage or at night.)

Plugs look textbook.
Going by this chart,
http://www.dansmc.com/spark_plugs/sp...s_catalog.html
The ground electrode color is #15, but w/o the lumpy texture.
Insulator deposits are a _very_ light tan, close to 13, but far less thick.

Haven't checked wires' they are looking a little old. Will do dark and
scary test.

> 7) How old is the oxygen sensor? Is it OEM or aftermarket?
> An old sensor will result in poor control of fuel mixture.

Haven't looked at it up close. As an official cheap bastard fuel
efficiency nut, the O2 is one of those things I've been itching to
replace or at least check. I understand that as they age, they tend
over report free o2, resulting in a progressively richer mix. Given the
plugs' appearance, I'm thinking the mix is pretty close to optimal. (?)

Thanks

-Moo

jim beam

On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 10:01:50 -0700, Greg Campbell wrote:

> Tegger wrote:
>
>> "Howard Lester" <heylester@dakotacom.net> wrote in
>
>>> "Tegger" wrote
>>>
>>>>> Here's all the history Az DOT has.
>>>>>
>>>>> HC Idle HC Load CO Idle CO Load.
>>>>> (220 ppm) (220 ppm) (1.2%) (1.2%)
>>>>>
>>>>> 2004 173 82 .34 .52 2005 181
>>>>> 74 .21 .46 2006 207 100
>>>>> .56 .64 2007 219 105 .4 .46
>>>>> 2008 190 157 .6 .57
>>>
>>>> Numbers are incomplete. No NOx. No CO2.
>>>>
>>>> Does AZ not test for NOx?
>
>>> Note that this sheet is titled "Emissins Control Visual
>>> Inspection...." Our state legislature never had much interest in
>>> education, you see.
>
> Gov't cost cutting measures at work. Just ask Vanna; them vowels is
> 'spensive!
>
>> All right, assuming NOx and CO2 are unavailable, I can think of a few
>> things off the top of my head. This is in no particular order, so do
>> the easy, cheap stuff first.
>>
>> Remember that HC is simply raw gas that's getting out of the combustion
>> chamber without having been burnt up first. CO is incomplete
>> combustion, from too much fuel and not enough oxygen (the resulting
>> combusted molecule has only one oxygen atom instead of two).
>
> Yea, I get it.
>
>> 1) Check the cat inlet and outlet temperatures. Take the car out for a
>> drive sufficient to warm the engine up to full operating temperature. A
>> bit of high-speed driving is a good idea. When measured with an
>> infrared thermometer, the cat should have an outlet about 30-100 F
>> higher than the inlet. If in and out are the same, or the outlet is
>> cooler, the cat is either insufficiently warmed up, or it's no longer
>> working anymore.
>
> That I can do. I rescued some high temp thermocouples and a meter from
> the dumpster. Will wire up two sensors, one on each end of cat.

hard to get good thermal contact. best to use an infrared reader.


> I
> suspect I'll see some temp rise. Even if aging, the cat probably isn't
> DOA. Does anyone know what sort of HC levels a cat-free system would
> emit? (I know, 'Google.com!')
>
>> 2) Do you have EGR?
>> Partially-plugged EGR can cause across-the-board high emissions, which
>> is why I asked about NOx.
>
> Got EGR. Ports and valve are clear and working. (Chased all 'round a
> CEL a year or two back. Found the valve wasn't rising fast enough. A
> small drill to the air metering orifice fixed it up.)
>
>> 3) Retarded ignition timing.
>> You'd be dumping raw gas directly into the exhaust manifold, expecting
>> the cat to do the clean up, something it's not designed to do.
>
> Haven't ever checked timing. You've got me curious, I'll borrow an
> Autozone light and have a look.
>
>> 4) Dirty injectors with poor spray pattern. Run a Motorvac service
>> (~$100), which is not a bad idea even if there's no actual issue to
>> solve.
>
> Corporate Bastards recently sent my job to Singapore. No spendin'
> allowed!
>
>> 5) Thermostat too old and stuck open. Will cause rich running and high
>> emissions.
>
> Therm was changed about 2 years back. (Changed the fan temp switch and
> figured I'd do everything while I was there.)
>
> How well does the engine coolant temperature sensor hold up?

in my experience, they have been known to drift. my 89 wouldn't warm up,
or at least, the computer thought it wasn't warming up because the sensor
was reading colder than actual, thus the lock-up clutch on the auto
transmission wasn't being switched on. new sensor cured that problem.

fuel economy has improved also because now the engine is not running in
cold enrichment mode for as long.


>
>> 6) What do the spark plugs look like? What kind and color of deposits
>> on them? Do they show signs of proper spark? Have you checked each plug
>> wire to make sure you get a purply-blue spark at each one? (Use a spare
>> spark plug to check in a dark garage or at night.)
>
> Plugs look textbook.
> Going by this chart,
> http://www.dansmc.com/spark_plugs/sp...s_catalog.html The ground
> electrode color is #15, but w/o the lumpy texture. Insulator deposits
> are a _very_ light tan, close to 13, but far less thick.

plugs are so cheap, replace anyway. don't attempt to clean as this can
leave metal deposits on the insulator that make the spark weaker, not
stronger.



>
> Haven't checked wires' they are looking a little old. Will do dark and
> scary test.

just replace anyway. simply not worth trying to diagnose something you
may or may not be able to detect. only use oem leads or expensive coiled
core silicone like ngk.



>
>> 7) How old is the oxygen sensor? Is it OEM or aftermarket? An old
>> sensor will result in poor control of fuel mixture.
>
> Haven't looked at it up close. As an official cheap bastard fuel
> efficiency nut, the O2 is one of those things I've been itching to
> replace or at least check. I understand that as they age, they tend
> over report free o2, resulting in a progressively richer mix. Given the
> plugs' appearance, I'm thinking the mix is pretty close to optimal. (?)
>
> Thanks
>
> -Moo