Re: O2 sensor controversy again
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> I would have thought OBDII would catch O2 weakness, too, but as the Subaru
> experience illustrates it isn't necessarily so. I am puzzled what sort of
> out-of-the-box defect the sensor would have that would cause it to behave so
> badly and not be tattled on, though.
>
> Mike

===============================

:-) Maybe the out-of-the-box defect was caused by the BOX ITSELF (like
it
had the word BOSCH on it)? I keep hearing horror stories about BOSCH,
and having owned Volvo and VW, I believe it.

:-(

'Curly'

Re: O2 sensor controversy again
 

"'Curly Q. Links'" <motsco__@interbaun.com> wrote in
news:444CE564.A6DB1014@interbaun.com:

> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>
>> "Woody" <TheDuck@pond.net> wrote in message
>> news:8s33g.69065$H71.136@newssvr13.news.prodigy.co m...
>> > Am 89 is not OBDII compliant and does not monitor the sensors that
>> > close and the sensors are totally different. The OBDII system
>> > monitors heater current and voltage and switching times and voltage
>> > to very precisely determine what they are doing. The chance of them
>> > causing a problem without setting a code is extremely slim. They
>> > can be setting sub codes long before turning on the light on the
>> > dash. The information in the computer should be thoroughly analyzed
>> > as swapping parts is expensive and could just be masking the real
>> > problem.
>> >
>> >
>> I would have thought OBDII would catch O2 weakness, too, but as the
>> Subaru experience illustrates it isn't necessarily so. I am puzzled
>> what sort of out-of-the-box defect the sensor would have that would
>> cause it to behave so badly and not be tattled on, though.
>>
>> Mike
>
> --------------------------------------
>
> Maybe the out-of-the-box defect was caused by the BOX ITSELF (like it
> had the word BOSCH on it)? I keep hearing horror stories about BOSCH,
> and having owned Volvo and VW, I believe it.
>
> :-(
>
> 'Curly'

Bosch,the new Prince of Darkness? (Lucas being the old one)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: O2 sensor controversy again
 

"'Curly Q. Links'" <motsco__@interbaun.com> wrote in
news:444CE564.A6DB1014@interbaun.com:

> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>
>> "Woody" <TheDuck@pond.net> wrote in message
>> news:8s33g.69065$H71.136@newssvr13.news.prodigy.co m...
>> > Am 89 is not OBDII compliant and does not monitor the sensors that
>> > close and the sensors are totally different. The OBDII system
>> > monitors heater current and voltage and switching times and voltage
>> > to very precisely determine what they are doing. The chance of them
>> > causing a problem without setting a code is extremely slim. They
>> > can be setting sub codes long before turning on the light on the
>> > dash. The information in the computer should be thoroughly analyzed
>> > as swapping parts is expensive and could just be masking the real
>> > problem.
>> >
>> >
>> I would have thought OBDII would catch O2 weakness, too, but as the
>> Subaru experience illustrates it isn't necessarily so. I am puzzled
>> what sort of out-of-the-box defect the sensor would have that would
>> cause it to behave so badly and not be tattled on, though.
>>
>> Mike
>
> --------------------------------------
>
> Maybe the out-of-the-box defect was caused by the BOX ITSELF (like it
> had the word BOSCH on it)? I keep hearing horror stories about BOSCH,
> and having owned Volvo and VW, I believe it.
>
> :-(
>
> 'Curly'

Bosch,the new Prince of Darkness? (Lucas being the old one)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: O2 sensor controversy again
 

"'Curly Q. Links'" <motsco__@interbaun.com> wrote in
news:444CE564.A6DB1014@interbaun.com:

> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>
>> "Woody" <TheDuck@pond.net> wrote in message
>> news:8s33g.69065$H71.136@newssvr13.news.prodigy.co m...
>> > Am 89 is not OBDII compliant and does not monitor the sensors that
>> > close and the sensors are totally different. The OBDII system
>> > monitors heater current and voltage and switching times and voltage
>> > to very precisely determine what they are doing. The chance of them
>> > causing a problem without setting a code is extremely slim. They
>> > can be setting sub codes long before turning on the light on the
>> > dash. The information in the computer should be thoroughly analyzed
>> > as swapping parts is expensive and could just be masking the real
>> > problem.
>> >
>> >
>> I would have thought OBDII would catch O2 weakness, too, but as the
>> Subaru experience illustrates it isn't necessarily so. I am puzzled
>> what sort of out-of-the-box defect the sensor would have that would
>> cause it to behave so badly and not be tattled on, though.
>>
>> Mike
>
> --------------------------------------
>
> Maybe the out-of-the-box defect was caused by the BOX ITSELF (like it
> had the word BOSCH on it)? I keep hearing horror stories about BOSCH,
> and having owned Volvo and VW, I believe it.
>
> :-(
>
> 'Curly'

Bosch,the new Prince of Darkness? (Lucas being the old one)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: O2 sensor controversy again
 

I won,t believe it until I see it. Of coarse Subaru may have a defect in
their OBDII code. Bad enough to cause fuel economy problems you could
definitely see on the graph of the sensor.


"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
news:SZWdnVRoC4JHVNHZnZ2dnUVZ_s-dnZ2d@sedona.net...
> "Woody" <TheDuck@pond.net> wrote in message
> news:8s33g.69065$H71.136@newssvr13.news.prodigy.co m...
>> Am 89 is not OBDII compliant and does not monitor the sensors that close
>> and the sensors are totally different. The OBDII system monitors heater
>> current and voltage and switching times and voltage to very precisely
>> determine what they are doing. The chance of them causing a problem
>> without setting a code is extremely slim. They can be setting sub codes
>> long before turning on the light on the dash. The information in the
>> computer should be thoroughly analyzed as swapping parts is expensive and
>> could just be masking the real problem.
>>
>>
> I would have thought OBDII would catch O2 weakness, too, but as the Subaru
> experience illustrates it isn't necessarily so. I am puzzled what sort of
> out-of-the-box defect the sensor would have that would cause it to behave
> so badly and not be tattled on, though.
>
> Mike
>

Re: O2 sensor controversy again
 

I won,t believe it until I see it. Of coarse Subaru may have a defect in
their OBDII code. Bad enough to cause fuel economy problems you could
definitely see on the graph of the sensor.


"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
news:SZWdnVRoC4JHVNHZnZ2dnUVZ_s-dnZ2d@sedona.net...
> "Woody" <TheDuck@pond.net> wrote in message
> news:8s33g.69065$H71.136@newssvr13.news.prodigy.co m...
>> Am 89 is not OBDII compliant and does not monitor the sensors that close
>> and the sensors are totally different. The OBDII system monitors heater
>> current and voltage and switching times and voltage to very precisely
>> determine what they are doing. The chance of them causing a problem
>> without setting a code is extremely slim. They can be setting sub codes
>> long before turning on the light on the dash. The information in the
>> computer should be thoroughly analyzed as swapping parts is expensive and
>> could just be masking the real problem.
>>
>>
> I would have thought OBDII would catch O2 weakness, too, but as the Subaru
> experience illustrates it isn't necessarily so. I am puzzled what sort of
> out-of-the-box defect the sensor would have that would cause it to behave
> so badly and not be tattled on, though.
>
> Mike
>

Re: O2 sensor controversy again
 

I won,t believe it until I see it. Of coarse Subaru may have a defect in
their OBDII code. Bad enough to cause fuel economy problems you could
definitely see on the graph of the sensor.


"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
news:SZWdnVRoC4JHVNHZnZ2dnUVZ_s-dnZ2d@sedona.net...
> "Woody" <TheDuck@pond.net> wrote in message
> news:8s33g.69065$H71.136@newssvr13.news.prodigy.co m...
>> Am 89 is not OBDII compliant and does not monitor the sensors that close
>> and the sensors are totally different. The OBDII system monitors heater
>> current and voltage and switching times and voltage to very precisely
>> determine what they are doing. The chance of them causing a problem
>> without setting a code is extremely slim. They can be setting sub codes
>> long before turning on the light on the dash. The information in the
>> computer should be thoroughly analyzed as swapping parts is expensive and
>> could just be masking the real problem.
>>
>>
> I would have thought OBDII would catch O2 weakness, too, but as the Subaru
> experience illustrates it isn't necessarily so. I am puzzled what sort of
> out-of-the-box defect the sensor would have that would cause it to behave
> so badly and not be tattled on, though.
>
> Mike
>

Re: O2 sensor controversy again
 

Woody wrote:
> Am 89 is not OBDII compliant and does not monitor the sensors that close and
> the sensors are totally different. The OBDII system monitors heater current
> and voltage and switching times and voltage to very precisely determine what
> they are doing.

monitoring heater current allows determination of element temperature if
taken to it's logical limit and simple burn-out at its most basic.
other than that, unless it's truly sophisticated, which i doubt in a
very noisy electrical environment like under the hood of a car,
diagnostics are going to be fairly basic stuff. the primary fault
detection mode afaik is to set differential limits between primary and
secondary sensors, and trigger if exceeded.

> The chance of them causing a problem without setting a code
> is extremely slim. They can be setting sub codes long before turning on the
> light on the dash. The information in the computer should be thoroughly
> analyzed as swapping parts is expensive and could just be masking the real
> problem.

but most people take it to a shop that has testing tools. the obdc
computer therefore doesn't need to be that sophisticated. for the home
mechanic, and in the absence of these expensive diagnostics, a few parts
scavenged from a junk yard, which is where i got the sensors for my
comparisons, can be a /much/ cheaper way of determining the level of
problem.

>
>
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:-tSdnUzA2tZufdbZnZ2dnUVZ_tKdnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
>>Michael Pardee wrote:
>>
>>>The question of whether an O2 sensor can be bad enough to cause
>>>drivability or fuel economy problems without triggering OBDII codes has
>>>another data point.
>>>
>>>In the alt.autos.subaru forum somebody asked for help sorting out very
>>>troublesome hesitation after slowing in a 2006 Outback. A respondent had
>>>the same problem in his car, and pressured the dealer to do *something*!
>>>The dealer replaced the O2 sensor (front one, I presume) in spite of lack
>>>of diagnostic codes and the symptom disappeared.
>>>
>>>Mike
>>
>>my experience is yes, it can definitely scratch that itch. with cheapo
>>aftermarket sensors, my '89, which has a slight tendency to hesitiation
>>anyway, is /way/ worse. no codes. but when i use a new oem sensor, that
>>problem all but disappears.
>
>
>

Re: O2 sensor controversy again
 

Woody wrote:
> Am 89 is not OBDII compliant and does not monitor the sensors that close and
> the sensors are totally different. The OBDII system monitors heater current
> and voltage and switching times and voltage to very precisely determine what
> they are doing.

monitoring heater current allows determination of element temperature if
taken to it's logical limit and simple burn-out at its most basic.
other than that, unless it's truly sophisticated, which i doubt in a
very noisy electrical environment like under the hood of a car,
diagnostics are going to be fairly basic stuff. the primary fault
detection mode afaik is to set differential limits between primary and
secondary sensors, and trigger if exceeded.

> The chance of them causing a problem without setting a code
> is extremely slim. They can be setting sub codes long before turning on the
> light on the dash. The information in the computer should be thoroughly
> analyzed as swapping parts is expensive and could just be masking the real
> problem.

but most people take it to a shop that has testing tools. the obdc
computer therefore doesn't need to be that sophisticated. for the home
mechanic, and in the absence of these expensive diagnostics, a few parts
scavenged from a junk yard, which is where i got the sensors for my
comparisons, can be a /much/ cheaper way of determining the level of
problem.

>
>
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:-tSdnUzA2tZufdbZnZ2dnUVZ_tKdnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
>>Michael Pardee wrote:
>>
>>>The question of whether an O2 sensor can be bad enough to cause
>>>drivability or fuel economy problems without triggering OBDII codes has
>>>another data point.
>>>
>>>In the alt.autos.subaru forum somebody asked for help sorting out very
>>>troublesome hesitation after slowing in a 2006 Outback. A respondent had
>>>the same problem in his car, and pressured the dealer to do *something*!
>>>The dealer replaced the O2 sensor (front one, I presume) in spite of lack
>>>of diagnostic codes and the symptom disappeared.
>>>
>>>Mike
>>
>>my experience is yes, it can definitely scratch that itch. with cheapo
>>aftermarket sensors, my '89, which has a slight tendency to hesitiation
>>anyway, is /way/ worse. no codes. but when i use a new oem sensor, that
>>problem all but disappears.
>
>
>

Re: O2 sensor controversy again
 

Woody wrote:
> Am 89 is not OBDII compliant and does not monitor the sensors that close and
> the sensors are totally different. The OBDII system monitors heater current
> and voltage and switching times and voltage to very precisely determine what
> they are doing.

monitoring heater current allows determination of element temperature if
taken to it's logical limit and simple burn-out at its most basic.
other than that, unless it's truly sophisticated, which i doubt in a
very noisy electrical environment like under the hood of a car,
diagnostics are going to be fairly basic stuff. the primary fault
detection mode afaik is to set differential limits between primary and
secondary sensors, and trigger if exceeded.

> The chance of them causing a problem without setting a code
> is extremely slim. They can be setting sub codes long before turning on the
> light on the dash. The information in the computer should be thoroughly
> analyzed as swapping parts is expensive and could just be masking the real
> problem.

but most people take it to a shop that has testing tools. the obdc
computer therefore doesn't need to be that sophisticated. for the home
mechanic, and in the absence of these expensive diagnostics, a few parts
scavenged from a junk yard, which is where i got the sensors for my
comparisons, can be a /much/ cheaper way of determining the level of
problem.

>
>
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:-tSdnUzA2tZufdbZnZ2dnUVZ_tKdnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
>>Michael Pardee wrote:
>>
>>>The question of whether an O2 sensor can be bad enough to cause
>>>drivability or fuel economy problems without triggering OBDII codes has
>>>another data point.
>>>
>>>In the alt.autos.subaru forum somebody asked for help sorting out very
>>>troublesome hesitation after slowing in a 2006 Outback. A respondent had
>>>the same problem in his car, and pressured the dealer to do *something*!
>>>The dealer replaced the O2 sensor (front one, I presume) in spite of lack
>>>of diagnostic codes and the symptom disappeared.
>>>
>>>Mike
>>
>>my experience is yes, it can definitely scratch that itch. with cheapo
>>aftermarket sensors, my '89, which has a slight tendency to hesitiation
>>anyway, is /way/ worse. no codes. but when i use a new oem sensor, that
>>problem all but disappears.
>
>
>

Re: O2 sensor controversy again
 

"Woody" <TheDuck@pond.net> wrote in
news:Wku3g.75554$dW3.59371@newssvr21.news.prodigy. com:

> I won,t believe it until I see it. Of coarse Subaru may have a defect
> in their OBDII code. Bad enough to cause fuel economy problems you
> could definitely see on the graph of the sensor.
>
>
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
> news:SZWdnVRoC4JHVNHZnZ2dnUVZ_s-dnZ2d@sedona.net...
>> "Woody" <TheDuck@pond.net> wrote in message
>> news:8s33g.69065$H71.136@newssvr13.news.prodigy.co m...
>>> Am 89 is not OBDII compliant and does not monitor the sensors that
>>> close and the sensors are totally different. The OBDII system
>>> monitors heater current and voltage and switching times and voltage
>>> to very precisely determine what they are doing. The chance of them
>>> causing a problem without setting a code is extremely slim. They can
>>> be setting sub codes long before turning on the light on the dash.
>>> The information in the computer should be thoroughly analyzed as
>>> swapping parts is expensive and could just be masking the real
>>> problem.
>>>
>>>
>> I would have thought OBDII would catch O2 weakness, too, but as the
>> Subaru experience illustrates it isn't necessarily so. I am puzzled
>> what sort of out-of-the-box defect the sensor would have that would
>> cause it to behave so badly and not be tattled on, though.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>
>
>

I did some Googling on "lazy oxygen sensor" and there were quite a number
of articles about the O2S affecting fuel economy.(without setting a code)
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: O2 sensor controversy again
 

"Woody" <TheDuck@pond.net> wrote in
news:Wku3g.75554$dW3.59371@newssvr21.news.prodigy. com:

> I won,t believe it until I see it. Of coarse Subaru may have a defect
> in their OBDII code. Bad enough to cause fuel economy problems you
> could definitely see on the graph of the sensor.
>
>
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
> news:SZWdnVRoC4JHVNHZnZ2dnUVZ_s-dnZ2d@sedona.net...
>> "Woody" <TheDuck@pond.net> wrote in message
>> news:8s33g.69065$H71.136@newssvr13.news.prodigy.co m...
>>> Am 89 is not OBDII compliant and does not monitor the sensors that
>>> close and the sensors are totally different. The OBDII system
>>> monitors heater current and voltage and switching times and voltage
>>> to very precisely determine what they are doing. The chance of them
>>> causing a problem without setting a code is extremely slim. They can
>>> be setting sub codes long before turning on the light on the dash.
>>> The information in the computer should be thoroughly analyzed as
>>> swapping parts is expensive and could just be masking the real
>>> problem.
>>>
>>>
>> I would have thought OBDII would catch O2 weakness, too, but as the
>> Subaru experience illustrates it isn't necessarily so. I am puzzled
>> what sort of out-of-the-box defect the sensor would have that would
>> cause it to behave so badly and not be tattled on, though.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>
>
>

I did some Googling on "lazy oxygen sensor" and there were quite a number
of articles about the O2S affecting fuel economy.(without setting a code)
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: O2 sensor controversy again
 

"Woody" <TheDuck@pond.net> wrote in
news:Wku3g.75554$dW3.59371@newssvr21.news.prodigy. com:

> I won,t believe it until I see it. Of coarse Subaru may have a defect
> in their OBDII code. Bad enough to cause fuel economy problems you
> could definitely see on the graph of the sensor.
>
>
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
> news:SZWdnVRoC4JHVNHZnZ2dnUVZ_s-dnZ2d@sedona.net...
>> "Woody" <TheDuck@pond.net> wrote in message
>> news:8s33g.69065$H71.136@newssvr13.news.prodigy.co m...
>>> Am 89 is not OBDII compliant and does not monitor the sensors that
>>> close and the sensors are totally different. The OBDII system
>>> monitors heater current and voltage and switching times and voltage
>>> to very precisely determine what they are doing. The chance of them
>>> causing a problem without setting a code is extremely slim. They can
>>> be setting sub codes long before turning on the light on the dash.
>>> The information in the computer should be thoroughly analyzed as
>>> swapping parts is expensive and could just be masking the real
>>> problem.
>>>
>>>
>> I would have thought OBDII would catch O2 weakness, too, but as the
>> Subaru experience illustrates it isn't necessarily so. I am puzzled
>> what sort of out-of-the-box defect the sensor would have that would
>> cause it to behave so badly and not be tattled on, though.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>
>
>

I did some Googling on "lazy oxygen sensor" and there were quite a number
of articles about the O2S affecting fuel economy.(without setting a code)
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net