Re: Pinging, pinking, knocking...?
 

Jim: Yes, I did set the timing with the 2P connector jumped. It seems
the timing really was advanced by about 1 degree.

Very interesting that you mentioned the timing belt. It was in fact
replaced last week, but by a very good mechanic, and I closely watched
the entire process (took a few hours). And I've had this "pinging" even
with the old belt. Still, I'd like to be sure.

How can I test you theory out?




jim beam wrote:
> sharx333 wrote:
> > Thanks to everyone who responded. The problem's finally fixed.
> > As it turned out, the timing was too advanced.
> >
> > It just never occurred to me that such a tiny amount of advance would
> > cause so much pinging. It was early by only about 1 degree or less. So
> > I guess the problem really was PINGING. It's pretty clear now that it
> > wasn't tappet noise, but is pinging the same as detonation or knock?
> >
> > Kevin: You mentioned a "farting" sound, and yes, the tailpipe seemed to
> > make that noise when you step on the gas. Is that what you meant?
> >
> > I suppose *some* pinging is expected on any car when you are in the
> > wrong gear (e.g. 4th gear at 10MPH).
> >
> did you set the timing with the ecu service connector in place? if not,
> your timing is probably still out because the ecu electronically
> advances ignition from a base point. you need the connector in place to
> set base.
>
> also, if the timing belt is not set right, both cam and ignition timing
> are out relative to the crank. you can mess with the ignition timing to
> make it /look/ right, but it's a fudge. has the belt been changed?

Re: Pinging, pinking, knocking...?
 

Yes, it definitely comes from the front. Now that Sharx333 has solved
his problem by tweaking his timing, I am definitely going to have a
second look at my own timing......my "clicking" comes on occasionally
when cruising at 65-70 mph. None at lower speeds.

Graham W wrote:
> > ah1244@wayne.edu wrote:
> >> I have been living with this intermittant clicking in my 91 Civic now
> >> for almost 3-4 years.
> sharx333 wrote:
> > ah1244: Yes, most passengers don't hear it at all. But in my case, it's
> > the opposite of yours: I can hear it only when the windows are *open*.
> > Does this rule out knocking or detonation?
> >
> > I adjusted the timing only once, after the distributor rotor was
> > replaced, and checked timing every chance I get, because I also thought
> > the noise could be related to timing. Actually I replaced the rotor for
> > precisely this reason also. But still no luck.
> >
> > Thanks for the tip, Earl and Kevin. I'll try retarding the timing a
> > little now.. Will post back about results.
>
> Are you sure that sound is coming from in front of you?
>
> I had a mystery sound like yours that turned out to be the two latches
> on the rear seat back that you release to lay it flat.
>
> The slight movement of the seat while traveling down the road was
> causing the latch to slide sideways and as it did a bit of sticktion
> made a little click as it let go. A smear of grease on the parts concerned
> instantly fixed it! (Note to self - it needs doing again now two years
> later!).
>
>
> --
> Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial
> WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro.org.uk/ Wessex Astro Society's Website
> Dorset UK Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps
> Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter.

Re: Pinging, pinking, knocking...?
 

Yes, it definitely comes from the front. Now that Sharx333 has solved
his problem by tweaking his timing, I am definitely going to have a
second look at my own timing......my "clicking" comes on occasionally
when cruising at 65-70 mph. None at lower speeds.

Graham W wrote:
> > ah1244@wayne.edu wrote:
> >> I have been living with this intermittant clicking in my 91 Civic now
> >> for almost 3-4 years.
> sharx333 wrote:
> > ah1244: Yes, most passengers don't hear it at all. But in my case, it's
> > the opposite of yours: I can hear it only when the windows are *open*.
> > Does this rule out knocking or detonation?
> >
> > I adjusted the timing only once, after the distributor rotor was
> > replaced, and checked timing every chance I get, because I also thought
> > the noise could be related to timing. Actually I replaced the rotor for
> > precisely this reason also. But still no luck.
> >
> > Thanks for the tip, Earl and Kevin. I'll try retarding the timing a
> > little now.. Will post back about results.
>
> Are you sure that sound is coming from in front of you?
>
> I had a mystery sound like yours that turned out to be the two latches
> on the rear seat back that you release to lay it flat.
>
> The slight movement of the seat while traveling down the road was
> causing the latch to slide sideways and as it did a bit of sticktion
> made a little click as it let go. A smear of grease on the parts concerned
> instantly fixed it! (Note to self - it needs doing again now two years
> later!).
>
>
> --
> Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial
> WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro.org.uk/ Wessex Astro Society's Website
> Dorset UK Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps
> Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter.

Re: Pinging, pinking, knocking...?
 

Yes, it definitely comes from the front. Now that Sharx333 has solved
his problem by tweaking his timing, I am definitely going to have a
second look at my own timing......my "clicking" comes on occasionally
when cruising at 65-70 mph. None at lower speeds.

Graham W wrote:
> > ah1244@wayne.edu wrote:
> >> I have been living with this intermittant clicking in my 91 Civic now
> >> for almost 3-4 years.
> sharx333 wrote:
> > ah1244: Yes, most passengers don't hear it at all. But in my case, it's
> > the opposite of yours: I can hear it only when the windows are *open*.
> > Does this rule out knocking or detonation?
> >
> > I adjusted the timing only once, after the distributor rotor was
> > replaced, and checked timing every chance I get, because I also thought
> > the noise could be related to timing. Actually I replaced the rotor for
> > precisely this reason also. But still no luck.
> >
> > Thanks for the tip, Earl and Kevin. I'll try retarding the timing a
> > little now.. Will post back about results.
>
> Are you sure that sound is coming from in front of you?
>
> I had a mystery sound like yours that turned out to be the two latches
> on the rear seat back that you release to lay it flat.
>
> The slight movement of the seat while traveling down the road was
> causing the latch to slide sideways and as it did a bit of sticktion
> made a little click as it let go. A smear of grease on the parts concerned
> instantly fixed it! (Note to self - it needs doing again now two years
> later!).
>
>
> --
> Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial
> WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro.org.uk/ Wessex Astro Society's Website
> Dorset UK Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps
> Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter.

Re: Pinging, pinking, knocking...?
 

In article <1160937536.693779.279640@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups .com>,
"sharx333" <emil.santos@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks to everyone who responded. The problem's finally fixed.
> As it turned out, the timing was too advanced.
>
> It just never occurred to me that such a tiny amount of advance would
> cause so much pinging. It was early by only about 1 degree or less. So
> I guess the problem really was PINGING. It's pretty clear now that it
> wasn't tappet noise, but is pinging the same as detonation or knock?
>
> Kevin: You mentioned a "farting" sound, and yes, the tailpipe seemed to
> make that noise when you step on the gas. Is that what you meant?

The 2005 HAH momentarily over advances so badly that the pinging becomes
chaotic, like running over a whoopie cushion. The HAH control systems
are so unrefined that I could cry.

Tailpipe farting is usually a sign of retarded timing. It's odd that
you have both. Is some ECU signal, like a knock sensor, broken? Or a
stuck EGR valve?

> I suppose *some* pinging is expected on any car when you are in the
> wrong gear (e.g. 4th gear at 10MPH).

Re: Pinging, pinking, knocking...?
 

In article <1160937536.693779.279640@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups .com>,
"sharx333" <emil.santos@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks to everyone who responded. The problem's finally fixed.
> As it turned out, the timing was too advanced.
>
> It just never occurred to me that such a tiny amount of advance would
> cause so much pinging. It was early by only about 1 degree or less. So
> I guess the problem really was PINGING. It's pretty clear now that it
> wasn't tappet noise, but is pinging the same as detonation or knock?
>
> Kevin: You mentioned a "farting" sound, and yes, the tailpipe seemed to
> make that noise when you step on the gas. Is that what you meant?

The 2005 HAH momentarily over advances so badly that the pinging becomes
chaotic, like running over a whoopie cushion. The HAH control systems
are so unrefined that I could cry.

Tailpipe farting is usually a sign of retarded timing. It's odd that
you have both. Is some ECU signal, like a knock sensor, broken? Or a
stuck EGR valve?

> I suppose *some* pinging is expected on any car when you are in the
> wrong gear (e.g. 4th gear at 10MPH).

Re: Pinging, pinking, knocking...?
 

In article <1160937536.693779.279640@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups .com>,
"sharx333" <emil.santos@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks to everyone who responded. The problem's finally fixed.
> As it turned out, the timing was too advanced.
>
> It just never occurred to me that such a tiny amount of advance would
> cause so much pinging. It was early by only about 1 degree or less. So
> I guess the problem really was PINGING. It's pretty clear now that it
> wasn't tappet noise, but is pinging the same as detonation or knock?
>
> Kevin: You mentioned a "farting" sound, and yes, the tailpipe seemed to
> make that noise when you step on the gas. Is that what you meant?

The 2005 HAH momentarily over advances so badly that the pinging becomes
chaotic, like running over a whoopie cushion. The HAH control systems
are so unrefined that I could cry.

Tailpipe farting is usually a sign of retarded timing. It's odd that
you have both. Is some ECU signal, like a knock sensor, broken? Or a
stuck EGR valve?

> I suppose *some* pinging is expected on any car when you are in the
> wrong gear (e.g. 4th gear at 10MPH).

Re: Pinging, pinking, knocking...?
 

sharx333 wrote:
> Jim: Yes, I did set the timing with the 2P connector jumped. It seems
> the timing really was advanced by about 1 degree.
>
> Very interesting that you mentioned the timing belt. It was in fact
> replaced last week, but by a very good mechanic, and I closely watched
> the entire process (took a few hours). And I've had this "pinging" even
> with the old belt. Still, I'd like to be sure.
>
> How can I test you theory out?
>

the distributor should be right in the middle of the adjusting slots.
if it's too far at one end or the other, the belt's out.

some more thoughts:

1. if the timing belt is loose, the timing marks will jump about under
the strobe. they should be rock steady if the belt is correctly
tensioned. in my experience, very few honda belts are tensioned
correctly on replacement, so check just to be sure you eliminate this
timing variance from the equation.

2. do you have the correct grade of spark plug? an incorrect grade
running too hot will cause pre-ignition.

3. check the distributor internals. if the pickup coils or reluctors
have broken free and are moving about, that would explain your need to
constantly readjust timing.


>
> jim beam wrote:
>> sharx333 wrote:
>>> Thanks to everyone who responded. The problem's finally fixed.
>>> As it turned out, the timing was too advanced.
>>>
>>> It just never occurred to me that such a tiny amount of advance would
>>> cause so much pinging. It was early by only about 1 degree or less. So
>>> I guess the problem really was PINGING. It's pretty clear now that it
>>> wasn't tappet noise, but is pinging the same as detonation or knock?
>>>
>>> Kevin: You mentioned a "farting" sound, and yes, the tailpipe seemed to
>>> make that noise when you step on the gas. Is that what you meant?
>>>
>>> I suppose *some* pinging is expected on any car when you are in the
>>> wrong gear (e.g. 4th gear at 10MPH).
>>>
>> did you set the timing with the ecu service connector in place? if not,
>> your timing is probably still out because the ecu electronically
>> advances ignition from a base point. you need the connector in place to
>> set base.
>>
>> also, if the timing belt is not set right, both cam and ignition timing
>> are out relative to the crank. you can mess with the ignition timing to
>> make it /look/ right, but it's a fudge. has the belt been changed?
>

Re: Pinging, pinking, knocking...?
 

sharx333 wrote:
> Jim: Yes, I did set the timing with the 2P connector jumped. It seems
> the timing really was advanced by about 1 degree.
>
> Very interesting that you mentioned the timing belt. It was in fact
> replaced last week, but by a very good mechanic, and I closely watched
> the entire process (took a few hours). And I've had this "pinging" even
> with the old belt. Still, I'd like to be sure.
>
> How can I test you theory out?
>

the distributor should be right in the middle of the adjusting slots.
if it's too far at one end or the other, the belt's out.

some more thoughts:

1. if the timing belt is loose, the timing marks will jump about under
the strobe. they should be rock steady if the belt is correctly
tensioned. in my experience, very few honda belts are tensioned
correctly on replacement, so check just to be sure you eliminate this
timing variance from the equation.

2. do you have the correct grade of spark plug? an incorrect grade
running too hot will cause pre-ignition.

3. check the distributor internals. if the pickup coils or reluctors
have broken free and are moving about, that would explain your need to
constantly readjust timing.


>
> jim beam wrote:
>> sharx333 wrote:
>>> Thanks to everyone who responded. The problem's finally fixed.
>>> As it turned out, the timing was too advanced.
>>>
>>> It just never occurred to me that such a tiny amount of advance would
>>> cause so much pinging. It was early by only about 1 degree or less. So
>>> I guess the problem really was PINGING. It's pretty clear now that it
>>> wasn't tappet noise, but is pinging the same as detonation or knock?
>>>
>>> Kevin: You mentioned a "farting" sound, and yes, the tailpipe seemed to
>>> make that noise when you step on the gas. Is that what you meant?
>>>
>>> I suppose *some* pinging is expected on any car when you are in the
>>> wrong gear (e.g. 4th gear at 10MPH).
>>>
>> did you set the timing with the ecu service connector in place? if not,
>> your timing is probably still out because the ecu electronically
>> advances ignition from a base point. you need the connector in place to
>> set base.
>>
>> also, if the timing belt is not set right, both cam and ignition timing
>> are out relative to the crank. you can mess with the ignition timing to
>> make it /look/ right, but it's a fudge. has the belt been changed?
>

Re: Pinging, pinking, knocking...?
 

sharx333 wrote:
> Jim: Yes, I did set the timing with the 2P connector jumped. It seems
> the timing really was advanced by about 1 degree.
>
> Very interesting that you mentioned the timing belt. It was in fact
> replaced last week, but by a very good mechanic, and I closely watched
> the entire process (took a few hours). And I've had this "pinging" even
> with the old belt. Still, I'd like to be sure.
>
> How can I test you theory out?
>

the distributor should be right in the middle of the adjusting slots.
if it's too far at one end or the other, the belt's out.

some more thoughts:

1. if the timing belt is loose, the timing marks will jump about under
the strobe. they should be rock steady if the belt is correctly
tensioned. in my experience, very few honda belts are tensioned
correctly on replacement, so check just to be sure you eliminate this
timing variance from the equation.

2. do you have the correct grade of spark plug? an incorrect grade
running too hot will cause pre-ignition.

3. check the distributor internals. if the pickup coils or reluctors
have broken free and are moving about, that would explain your need to
constantly readjust timing.


>
> jim beam wrote:
>> sharx333 wrote:
>>> Thanks to everyone who responded. The problem's finally fixed.
>>> As it turned out, the timing was too advanced.
>>>
>>> It just never occurred to me that such a tiny amount of advance would
>>> cause so much pinging. It was early by only about 1 degree or less. So
>>> I guess the problem really was PINGING. It's pretty clear now that it
>>> wasn't tappet noise, but is pinging the same as detonation or knock?
>>>
>>> Kevin: You mentioned a "farting" sound, and yes, the tailpipe seemed to
>>> make that noise when you step on the gas. Is that what you meant?
>>>
>>> I suppose *some* pinging is expected on any car when you are in the
>>> wrong gear (e.g. 4th gear at 10MPH).
>>>
>> did you set the timing with the ecu service connector in place? if not,
>> your timing is probably still out because the ecu electronically
>> advances ignition from a base point. you need the connector in place to
>> set base.
>>
>> also, if the timing belt is not set right, both cam and ignition timing
>> are out relative to the crank. you can mess with the ignition timing to
>> make it /look/ right, but it's a fudge. has the belt been changed?
>

Re: Pinging, pinking, knocking...?
 

Kevin: I don't notice the tailpipe "farting" unless I'm outside, near
the tailpipe and someone else is driving. So it could well be gone by
now.

I do remember the timing marks jumping about before the belt was
replaced. But with the new belt, the marks are now rock-steady.

Jim: Will check out the distributor ASAP. But I do remember a curious
thing: When the timing belt was being replaced, the mechanic seemed to
have a hard time trying to get the pulley marks aligned. I never did
quite see if he got them perfectly lined up. It's as if the marks were
somehow misaligned, or the belt was the wrong size (??). Could
something like that have happened? Would it run if, say, a belt with
an extra tooth was put on? We based the new timing belt on the old one
(107 teeth), but the previous mechanic could have messed it up.. Is
this possible?

Re: Pinging, pinking, knocking...?
 

Kevin: I don't notice the tailpipe "farting" unless I'm outside, near
the tailpipe and someone else is driving. So it could well be gone by
now.

I do remember the timing marks jumping about before the belt was
replaced. But with the new belt, the marks are now rock-steady.

Jim: Will check out the distributor ASAP. But I do remember a curious
thing: When the timing belt was being replaced, the mechanic seemed to
have a hard time trying to get the pulley marks aligned. I never did
quite see if he got them perfectly lined up. It's as if the marks were
somehow misaligned, or the belt was the wrong size (??). Could
something like that have happened? Would it run if, say, a belt with
an extra tooth was put on? We based the new timing belt on the old one
(107 teeth), but the previous mechanic could have messed it up.. Is
this possible?

Re: Pinging, pinking, knocking...?
 

Kevin: I don't notice the tailpipe "farting" unless I'm outside, near
the tailpipe and someone else is driving. So it could well be gone by
now.

I do remember the timing marks jumping about before the belt was
replaced. But with the new belt, the marks are now rock-steady.

Jim: Will check out the distributor ASAP. But I do remember a curious
thing: When the timing belt was being replaced, the mechanic seemed to
have a hard time trying to get the pulley marks aligned. I never did
quite see if he got them perfectly lined up. It's as if the marks were
somehow misaligned, or the belt was the wrong size (??). Could
something like that have happened? Would it run if, say, a belt with
an extra tooth was put on? We based the new timing belt on the old one
(107 teeth), but the previous mechanic could have messed it up.. Is
this possible?

Re: Pinging, pinking, knocking...?
 

jim beam wrote:
> 2. do you have the correct grade of spark plug? an incorrect grade
> running too hot will cause pre-ignition.

Jim: Yes, I have the correct plugs (NGK BKR6E-11). Just to eliminate
other suspects, I also recently:

* Added fuel injector cleaner (Prestone brand, about 1 month ago)
* Replaced PCV
* New distributor rotor
* Replaced ignition coil
* Oil changed
* New timing belt

(All original Honda parts)

Re: Pinging, pinking, knocking...?
 

jim beam wrote:
> 2. do you have the correct grade of spark plug? an incorrect grade
> running too hot will cause pre-ignition.

Jim: Yes, I have the correct plugs (NGK BKR6E-11). Just to eliminate
other suspects, I also recently:

* Added fuel injector cleaner (Prestone brand, about 1 month ago)
* Replaced PCV
* New distributor rotor
* Replaced ignition coil
* Oil changed
* New timing belt

(All original Honda parts)