Bill Tuthill

In alt.autos.toyota RT <noyabusiness@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> In cold weather get 30mpg ? uh, the corolla will easily do that.

A driver is a total weenie if he or she cannot get > 50 MPG
from a Prius, even in cold weather.

I've been getting high 50s lately, and am looking forward to
summer-mix gasoline (non oxygenated) with 5% higher energy content
so I can cross 60 MPG per fill-up.

Andrew Stephenson

In article <Xns98D97FF09C921jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.86>
jyanik@abuse.gov "Jim Yanik" writes:

> How about charged from 120VAC line?
> When you get home or where an outlet is available.
> Then you use cheaper,more efficiently generated mains power for
> charging,not expensive gasoline.

The exact numbers are not to hand but, in general, the efficiency
of charging from a wall socket is not as good as people generally
think. It may be $cheaper to the householder than what is put in
in fuel tank; but that's a red herring in the efficiency puzzle.

Consider these stages when charging:

* burn fuel at the power station and convert to electricity (hard
to compute the efficiencies if the energy source is, say, hydro
or solar or one of those, so skip them for now);

* convey the electricity to wall socket and charger unit (if long
journey across country, losses not negligible);

* convert electricity to form suitable for battery (low volt DC),
then convert to chemical energy, then back to electricity (huge
losses overall).

Compare this with the clever juggling the full hybrid setup does.
Often the battery stays idle, as engine drives generator and that
drives electric motor. If it does involve the battery, we do not
have to pay for transmission losses. The higher-than-usual Prius
petrol engine efficiency... hmm, I'd be guessing irresponsibly if
I estimated how it matches up to the power station and would like
to know more.

Just a thought, right?
--
Andrew Stephenson

Andrew Stephenson

In article <45d5ee8c@news.meer.net> ccreekin@yahoo.com "Bill
Tuthill" writes:

> A driver is a total weenie if he or she cannot get > 50 MPG
> from a Prius, even in cold weather.

Then that makes me a weenie. <g> Likewise the other Prius owners
who use my local T dealer/maintainer, who reports 56mphUK is what
most drivers get, long term. (That'd be about 44.8mpgUS.)

Share your secret, Bill? :-)
--
Andrew Stephenson

mrv@kluge.net

On Feb 15, 9:51 pm, Hachiroku ハチ�ク <Tru...@AE86.gts> wrote:
> Hmmm...I drove a 'classic' for about a week (1999...hey, how'd he do that
> when the 'first' year was 2000?) and got to where I could control the gas
> engine with my left foot.

The first Prius was available in calendar year 1997 as a 1998 model
year (the NHW10 model). The 1998-2000 model year Prius was only
available in Japan. Beginning with the 2001 model year (available in
2000 calendar year), the Prius was redesigned and available for sale
internationally (the NHW11 model). The 2001-2003 model year Prius is
what is usually referred to as the "Classic" Prius.

A small handful of the original Japanese Prius were brought out of
Japan for some testing, to see what updates were needed for an
international release. Was this one that you had tried in 1999? It's
best identified as a compact sedan, no rear spoiler, the center
display is all in Japanese, and had dash buttons for the display
rather than a touch-screen. Oh, yeah, and it's RHD. (The NHW11 added
the rear spoiler, a touch-screen, and has a more powerful engine and a
more powerful (different design) battery pack, so better fuel economy
and acceleration.)

To my knowledge, there has always been just the brake pedal and the
accelerator pedal... So how were you controlling the gasoline engine
with your left foot?

mark_digital�

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns98D97FF09C921jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.86...
> "mark_digital�" <976-XXX@comcastnot.com> wrote in
> news:aO-dnQihFquFQEjYnZ2dnUVZ_tyinZ2d@comcast.com:
>
>>
>> "Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote in message
>> news:gTjBh.2094$x74.744@newsread4.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
>>> "mark_digital�" wrote ...
>>>> "Ray O" wrote ...
>>>>> "R PRINCETON" wrote ...
>>>>>>I just got a prius and am a bit disappointed that it doesn't spend
>>>>>>more time
>>>>>> in electric only mode.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My question is for those who have modified the car to spend more
>>>>>> time in
>>>>>> electric mode: did you get better mileage?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>> The hybrid controller for the Prius is designed to keep the battery
>>>>> between 45% and 75% charged to prolong the life of the battery, so
>>>>> a modification that lets the battery get below 45% charge may
>>>>> shorten the battery pack's life.
>>>>>
>>>>> Adding additional batteries would theoretically allow the vehicle
>>>>> to spend more time in electric mode but then the engine would have
>>>>> to spend more time running to re-charge the battery.
>>>>> Ray O
>>>>
>>>> Unless the excess of the engine and regenerative braking were
>>>> underutilized to begin with.
>>> It is my unscientific belief that I regenerate more than I use, based
>>> upon my observation that I am in the green a lot and hardly ever go
>>> below half of the blue. Thus, I would like to use the electric
>>> moreso that it does by default.
>>>
>>> Doing it (controlling it) manually, however, would open up the
>>> possibility of hurting the battery on both ends inadvertently - by
>>> over and under charging.
>>>
>>> What I would like is the ability to tweak it within limits. (Adjust
>>> it to be a bit more on the electric side.)
>>> Tomes
>>>
>>>
>> You're redesigned Prius actually (according to what I've read and
>> heard) does go further and faster in all electric mode under similar
>> conditions than my '03 Prius. As far as installing another battery
>> pack, if it were my project I would make it so the second battery pack
>> was for *overflow* only and not to be charged simultaneously or better
>> put, not a priority.
>
> How about charged from 120VAC line?
> When you get home or where an outlet is available.
> Then you use cheaper,more efficiently generated mains power for
> charging,not expensive gasoline.
> Jim Yanik

There's always a possibility the engine will start anyway even if the car is
sitting still. If both battery packs are topped off ahead of time then
there's no place else to store the electricity. Then the so-called savings
from using AC utility power are diminished. By how much I don't know. All I
can say is if an extra battery pack allowed me to travel 20 miles I would be
hauled off, tarred and feathered by everyone behind me for going so slow.

mark_

Hachiroku +O+A+m+/

On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:45:03 +0000, Andrew Stephenson wrote:

> In article <R_8Bh.4611$7s2.2405@trndny07>
> Trueno@AE86.gts
> "=?iso-2022-jp?q?Hachiroku_=1B$B%O%A%m%=2F=1B=28B?=" writes:
>
>> Hmmm...I drove a 'classic' for about a week (1999...hey, how'd
>> he do that when the 'first' year was 2000?) and got to where I
>> could control the gas engine with my left foot.
>
> Year number applied in the previous calendar year, maybe?
>
>> Sad thing was, I got better economy for my type of driving with
>> my '95 Tercel Automatic!
>
> Quite possible. Driving style is so important. Too many folks
> think a hybrid doesn't benefit from being driven properly. Not
> true. It's like any other vehicle, that way.
>
> Is the Tercel a small car?

How about Corolla II?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:T...corolla_ii.jpg

> The Prius is not. USian Mid-sized,
> almost. I see Toyota FWDs being advertised, with mpgs horribly
> lower than the Prius, despite related hybrid tech. (Maybe good
> for FWDs, though.) Body mass must count for a lot, although of
> course FWDs have the extra transmission bits to power.

Hachiroku +O+A+m+/

On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:51:02 -0800, mrv@kluge.net wrote:

> On Feb 15, 9:51 pm, Hachiroku ハチ�ク <Tru...@AE86.gts> wrote:
>> Hmmm...I drove a 'classic' for about a week (1999...hey, how'd he do that
>> when the 'first' year was 2000?) and got to where I could control the gas
>> engine with my left foot.
>
> The first Prius was available in calendar year 1997 as a 1998 model
> year (the NHW10 model). The 1998-2000 model year Prius was only
> available in Japan. Beginning with the 2001 model year (available in
> 2000 calendar year), the Prius was redesigned and available for sale
> internationally (the NHW11 model). The 2001-2003 model year Prius is
> what is usually referred to as the "Classic" Prius.
>
> A small handful of the original Japanese Prius were brought out of
> Japan for some testing, to see what updates were needed for an
> international release. Was this one that you had tried in 1999? It's
> best identified as a compact sedan, no rear spoiler, the center
> display is all in Japanese, and had dash buttons for the display
> rather than a touch-screen. Oh, yeah, and it's RHD. (The NHW11 added
> the rear spoiler, a touch-screen, and has a more powerful engine and a
> more powerful (different design) battery pack, so better fuel economy
> and acceleration.)

It was a dealer 'teaser', that was available for show before actual sale.
It was LHD, but this one was at the dealership months before they were
actually available for sale here. One side was white, due to an accident.
The other side was a huge billboard "PRIUS 60MPG Hiway Mileage Hybrid"



>
> To my knowledge, there has always been just the brake pedal and the
> accelerator pedal... So how were you controlling the gasoline engine
> with your left foot?

Sorry...meant right foot...

mark_digital�

"Hachiroku ????" <Trueno@ae86.GTS> wrote in message
news:wHoBh.16$_O1.0@trndny04...
> On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:51:02 -0800, mrv@kluge.net wrote:
>
>> On Feb 15, 9:51 pm, Hachiroku ???? <Tru...@AE86.gts> wrote:
>>> Hmmm...I drove a 'classic' for about a week (1999...hey, how'd he do
>>> that
>>> when the 'first' year was 2000?) and got to where I could control the
>>> gas
>>> engine with my left foot.
>>
>> The first Prius was available in calendar year 1997 as a 1998 model
>> year (the NHW10 model). The 1998-2000 model year Prius was only
>> available in Japan. Beginning with the 2001 model year (available in
>> 2000 calendar year), the Prius was redesigned and available for sale
>> internationally (the NHW11 model). The 2001-2003 model year Prius is
>> what is usually referred to as the "Classic" Prius.
>>
>> A small handful of the original Japanese Prius were brought out of
>> Japan for some testing, to see what updates were needed for an
>> international release. Was this one that you had tried in 1999? It's
>> best identified as a compact sedan, no rear spoiler, the center
>> display is all in Japanese, and had dash buttons for the display
>> rather than a touch-screen. Oh, yeah, and it's RHD. (The NHW11 added
>> the rear spoiler, a touch-screen, and has a more powerful engine and a
>> more powerful (different design) battery pack, so better fuel economy
>> and acceleration.)
>
> It was a dealer 'teaser', that was available for show before actual sale.
> It was LHD, but this one was at the dealership months before they were
> actually available for sale here. One side was white, due to an accident.
> The other side was a huge billboard "PRIUS 60MPG Hiway Mileage Hybrid"
>
>
>
>>
>> To my knowledge, there has always been just the brake pedal and the
>> accelerator pedal... So how were you controlling the gasoline engine
>> with your left foot?
>
> Sorry...meant right foot...

I'm sorry too. I thought you were implying you could steer with your......
Oh, never mind.
mark_

Elliot Richmond

Dear Newsies

If you want a high performance, all-electric automobile (which seems
to where the thread was going) you might check out:

http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1

It is based on the tZero:

http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/

and uses many Lotus parts and basic chassis.

There are to Honda or Toyota bits in either that I know of so this is
an off-topic post.


Elliot Richmond
Itinerant astronomy teacher

Hachiroku +O+A+m+/

On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:04:05 -0500, mark_digital© wrote:

> "Hachiroku ????" <Trueno@ae86.GTS> wrote in message
> news:wHoBh.16$_O1.0@trndny04...
>> On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:51:02 -0800, mrv@kluge.net wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 15, 9:51 pm, Hachiroku ???? <Tru...@AE86.gts> wrote:
>>>> Hmmm...I drove a 'classic' for about a week (1999...hey, how'd he do
>>>> that
>>>> when the 'first' year was 2000?) and got to where I could control the
>>>> gas
>>>> engine with my left foot.
>>>
>>> The first Prius was available in calendar year 1997 as a 1998 model
>>> year (the NHW10 model). The 1998-2000 model year Prius was only
>>> available in Japan. Beginning with the 2001 model year (available in
>>> 2000 calendar year), the Prius was redesigned and available for sale
>>> internationally (the NHW11 model). The 2001-2003 model year Prius is
>>> what is usually referred to as the "Classic" Prius.
>>>
>>> A small handful of the original Japanese Prius were brought out of
>>> Japan for some testing, to see what updates were needed for an
>>> international release. Was this one that you had tried in 1999? It's
>>> best identified as a compact sedan, no rear spoiler, the center
>>> display is all in Japanese, and had dash buttons for the display
>>> rather than a touch-screen. Oh, yeah, and it's RHD. (The NHW11 added
>>> the rear spoiler, a touch-screen, and has a more powerful engine and a
>>> more powerful (different design) battery pack, so better fuel economy
>>> and acceleration.)
>>
>> It was a dealer 'teaser', that was available for show before actual sale.
>> It was LHD, but this one was at the dealership months before they were
>> actually available for sale here. One side was white, due to an accident.
>> The other side was a huge billboard "PRIUS 60MPG Hiway Mileage Hybrid"
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> To my knowledge, there has always been just the brake pedal and the
>>> accelerator pedal... So how were you controlling the gasoline engine
>>> with your left foot?
>>
>> Sorry...meant right foot...
>
> I'm sorry too. I thought you were implying you could steer with your......
> Oh, never mind.
> mark_

Well, I *CAN*, but that's besides the point...

Hachiroku +O+A+m+/

On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:30:31 -0600, Elliot Richmond wrote:

> Dear Newsies
>
> If you want a high performance, all-electric automobile (which seems
> to where the thread was going) you might check out:
>
> http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1
>
> It is based on the tZero:
>
> http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/
>
> and uses many Lotus parts and basic chassis.
>
> There are to Honda or Toyota bits in either that I know of so this is
> an off-topic post.
>
>
> Elliot Richmond
> Itinerant astronomy teacher

Yeah, but the original was $134,000 to the first 200 customers, and
$80,000 after that!

But...va-ROOOOOM!!!!

Basically a Lotus Exige with an electric motor.

Bill Tuthill

In alt.autos.toyota Andrew Stephenson <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> A driver is a total weenie if he or she cannot get > 50 MPG
>> from a Prius, even in cold weather.
>
> Then that makes me a weenie. <g> Likewise the other Prius owners
> who use my local T dealer/maintainer, who reports 56mphUK is what
> most drivers get, long term. (That'd be about 44.8mpgUS.)
>
> Share your secret, Bill? :-)

I am not afraid to drive slowly!
Of course the "Old Fart in Training" license plate cover helps.

Driving 75-80 mph from San Jose to Los Angeles, my wife got about
what you UK drivers get. Short trips are far worse for Prius mileage
than excessive speeds.

Andrew Stephenson

In article <45d65311@news.meer.net> ccreekin@yahoo.com "Bill Tuthill" writes:

> In alt.autos.toyota Andrew Stephenson <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> A driver is a total weenie if he or she cannot get > 50 MPG
> >> from a Prius, even in cold weather.
> >
> > Then that makes me a weenie. <g> Likewise the other Prius owners
> > who use my local T dealer/maintainer, who reports 56mphUK is what
> > most drivers get, long term. (That'd be about 44.8mpgUS.)
> >
> > Share your secret, Bill? :-)
>
> I am not afraid to drive slowly!
> Of course the "Old Fart in Training" license plate cover helps.

:-)

> Driving 75-80 mph from San Jose to Los Angeles, my wife got about
> what you UK drivers get. Short trips are far worse for Prius mileage
> than excessive speeds.

That's encouraging (for future times when/if I do similar trips)
but puzzling too. Last June, when the weather here was warm and
dry, I drove about 400 miles in one day over mostly level ground
and at 50/60-ish speeds (as fast as it was safe+legal+feasible),
getting around that 56mpgUK -- which, incidentally, I learn I've
been converting to mpgUS wrongly, making it more like 46.8mpgUS.

This figure proved so reliable that, come late Sunday as I drove
across the Yorkshire Dales, through village after village that'd
never heard of selling petrol on weekends, I could calculate the
point where my tank would run dry with some confidence; and that
journey was a wild series of undulations and twists going on for
some 50 miles, in gathering gloom, with dry stone walls flashing
past because I did NOT want to be caught out there come the dark
(on account of the famous Yorkshire werewolves, you understand).
--
Andrew Stephenson

Jim Yanik

ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk (Andrew Stephenson) wrote in
news:1171652924snz@deltrak.demon.co.uk:

> In article <Xns98D97FF09C921jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.86>
> jyanik@abuse.gov "Jim Yanik" writes:
>
>> How about charged from 120VAC line?
>> When you get home or where an outlet is available.
>> Then you use cheaper,more efficiently generated mains power for
>> charging,not expensive gasoline.
>
> The exact numbers are not to hand but, in general, the efficiency
> of charging from a wall socket is not as good as people generally
> think. It may be $cheaper to the householder than what is put in
> in fuel tank; but that's a red herring in the efficiency puzzle.
>
> Consider these stages when charging:
>
> * burn fuel at the power station and convert to electricity (hard
> to compute the efficiencies if the energy source is, say, hydro
> or solar or one of those, so skip them for now);
>
> * convey the electricity to wall socket and charger unit (if long
> journey across country, losses not negligible);
>
> * convert electricity to form suitable for battery (low volt DC),
> then convert to chemical energy, then back to electricity (huge
> losses overall).
>
> Compare this with the clever juggling the full hybrid setup does.
> Often the battery stays idle, as engine drives generator and that
> drives electric motor. If it does involve the battery, we do not
> have to pay for transmission losses. The higher-than-usual Prius
> petrol engine efficiency... hmm, I'd be guessing irresponsibly if
> I estimated how it matches up to the power station and would like
> to know more.
>
> Just a thought, right?

I suspect that electric generation is more efficient any from 120VAC source
than any hybrid auto,and also outputs far less pollutants.

Transmission losses are present regardless of whether the auto is charged
from the line or not.Losses from corona discharge/leakage are far greater,I
suspect.

and you neglect the conversion losses that the auto has in going from
electric to mechanical and back,also the self-discharge the batery pack
has.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

R PRINCETON

Unbelievable! 11 answers and counting and no-one answers my original
question! Are you all a bunch of politicians!?!?!?!

OK, enough ranting....

Ignoring, increased wear and tear on the batteries or engine, total energy
equations involving my old coal powered power plant; and any disturbances in
subspace temporal harmonics....

DID THE EV only switch increase peoples mileage? and by how much?


thank you

-ralph




"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
news:5a93a$45d5e9bf$44a4a10d$16778@msgid.meganewss ervers.com...
>
> "Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote in message
> news:gTjBh.2094$x74.744@newsread4.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > "mark_digital�" wrote ...
> >> "Ray O" wrote ...
> >>> "R PRINCETON" wrote ...
> >>>>I just got a prius and am a bit disappointed that it doesn't spend
more
> >>>>time
> >>>> in electric only mode.
> >>>>
> >>>> My question is for those who have modified the car to spend more time
> >>>> in
> >>>> electric mode: did you get better mileage?
> >>>>
> >>>> -thanks
> >>>>
> >>>> -ralph
> >>>>
> >>> The hybrid controller for the Prius is designed to keep the battery
> >>> between 45% and 75% charged to prolong the life of the battery, so a
> >>> modification that lets the battery get below 45% charge may shorten
the
> >>> battery pack's life.
> >>>
> >>> Adding additional batteries would theoretically allow the vehicle to
> >>> spend more time in electric mode but then the engine would have to
spend
> >>> more time running to re-charge the battery.
> >>> Ray O
> >>
> >> Unless the excess of the engine and regenerative braking were
> >> underutilized to begin with.
> > It is my unscientific belief that I regenerate more than I use, based
upon
> > my observation that I am in the green a lot and hardly ever go below
half
> > of the blue. Thus, I would like to use the electric moreso that it does
> > by default.
> >
> > Doing it (controlling it) manually, however, would open up the
possibility
> > of hurting the battery on both ends inadvertently - by over and under
> > charging.
> >
> > What I would like is the ability to tweak it within limits. (Adjust it
to
> > be a bit more on the electric side.)
> > Tomes
> >
> >
>
> In every case I have read about where people have wanted to tweak or
adjust
> how the hybrid system operates, their desire has been to have the vehicle
> run in pure electric mode for a longer period or distance. I believe that
> Priuses sold in the UK have an EV button that forces the vehicle to
operate
> in electric mode as long as possible, and that real world fuel economy
> changes very little by using that mode often.
>
> --
>
> Ray O
> (correct punctuation to reply)
>
>