Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

"Bill Tuthill" wrote ...
> RT wrote:
>> In cold weather get 30mpg ? uh, the corolla will easily do that.
>
> A driver is a total weenie if he or she cannot get > 50 MPG
> from a Prius, even in cold weather.
>
> I've been getting high 50s lately, and am looking forward to
> summer-mix gasoline (non oxygenated) with 5% higher energy content
> so I can cross 60 MPG per fill-up.
>
We are weenies too. We get 44-49 depending on the trip type here in west
central NJ. I also look forward to seeing what it will do in the summer
months.
Tomes

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

"Chuck Olson" wrote ...
> "Gordon McGrew" wrote ...
>>
>> I rode in a friend's Prius and he showed me that the engine started up
>> before he hit 5 mph even under mild acceleration. I thought the
>> difference between the "full" hybrids like Prius and "mild" hybrids
>> like the Civic was the ability of the former to operate as a pure
>> electric over a modest range of conditions. It would seem that the
>> Prius' all electric performance is very modest indeed. Is this
>> correct?
>
> As most have said, the battery has to be charged above a specific
> threshold
> for the ICE to turn off. I have found that you also need to be in
> cruise
> control. Normal driving with foot on the accelerator just doesn't
> produce
> electric-only operation except at very slow side-street speeds. I guess
> that's because the Prius computer doesn't trust human beings to drive at
> a
> single fixed speed. My favorite EV speed in cruise control is 34 MPH.
>
> To make sure the battery is charged and ready for EV operation, you need
> to
> apply fairly heavy braking from freeway speed.. Just slowing down slowly
> doesn't charge up the battery very efficiently. Unfortunately this kind
> of
> driving is uncomfortable for passengers, so don't do it unless you're
> alone.
> Also, make sure you brake *before* you hit a curve or encounter cross
> traffic.
>
>
Doesn't the cruise control need to be reset when the speed drops below a
certain MPH? It does on my Sienna and I believe I read that it does on
the Prius too.

Ah - I found it: "Slowing down to less than 24 MPH (39 km/h) will cause
the cruise-control "resume" memory to reset. So if you have to slow down
or stop, you'll need to set the speed again." - From the Toyota Prius User
Guide
http://john1701a.com/prius/documents...User-Guide.pdf

So how do you start and accelerate in cruise control in the Prius? What
is the trick?

Also, I have found that normal operation in my Prius keeps the battery
charge near the top of the blue range and often in the green range. There
is no need to perform abnormal braking stunts to ensure adequate battery
charge.
Tomes

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

In article <XEMBh.2654$x74.2187@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink. net>
askme@here.net "Tomes" writes:

> Ah - I found it: "Slowing down to less than 24 MPH (39 km/h) will cause
> the cruise-control "resume" memory to reset. So if you have to slow down
> or stop, you'll need to set the speed again." - From the Toyota Prius User
> Guide
> http://john1701a.com/prius/documents...User-Guide.pdf
>
> So how do you start and accelerate in cruise control in the Prius? What
> is the trick?

Can't answer the "how to start in cruise" part: never tried. If
you think about it, start and/or accelerate are not big parts of
cruising.

Changing cruise speed I do by the book: flip cruise lever up (+1
mph) or down (-1 mph).
--
Andrew Stephenson

Re: What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 09:00:56 GMT, "R PRINCETON"
<rlanni@access4less.net> wrote:

>Unbelievable! 11 answers and counting and no-one answers my original
>question! Are you all a bunch of politicians!?!?!?!
>
>OK, enough ranting....
>
>Ignoring, increased wear and tear on the batteries or engine, total energy
>equations involving my old coal powered power plant; and any disturbances in
>subspace temporal harmonics....
>
>DID THE EV only switch increase peoples mileage? and by how much?
>
>
>thank you
>
>-ralph

Ralph,

Stop and think about hybrids, what they are and how they work. Hybrids
are nothing new, the railroads have been using them for since the
1940's. Almost all freight trains are pulled by diesel-electric
locomotives. They use diesel-electric for one reason only. A pure
diesel locomotive would require a clutch that you couldn't believe. It
would have to slip for 10 minutes or more while the train was brought
up to speed while transferring as much as 2,000 horse power to the
traction wheels through a 50 speed transmission. The electrics take
the place of this 40 foot diameter, electric fan cooled, multi-plate
wet-clutch as well as the mechanical drive lines.

Your hybrid car is a political solution to a political problem. Your
car has to haul around heavy batteries, a big generator to recharge
the batteries and all the electronics needed to control the electric
motor, the charge going into the batteries and monitoring the
condition of the batteries. Plus it STILL has a gas IC engine and
fuel tank to haul around.

All of the mechanical inefficiencies are still there to which we add
the electrical inefficiencies (alternator-85% efficient, electric
motor-80% efficient, control circuity-85% to 90% efficient, battery
recharge-60% to 70%)

There is no way it can get the same over-all mileage and still have
the same performance as a gasoline-only car.

If you want an electric car, fine---buy one. But just remember, there
is a reason why the Baker Electrics and Stanley Steamers aren't sold
any more.

Jack


---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 000714-2, 02/16/2007
Tested on: 2/17/2007 10:32:55 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

"Andrew Stephenson" wrote ...
> "Tomes" writes:
>> Ah - I found it: "Slowing down to less than 24 MPH (39 km/h) will cause
>> the cruise-control "resume" memory to reset. So if you have to slow
>> down
>> or stop, you'll need to set the speed again." - From the Toyota Prius
>> User
>> Guide
>> http://john1701a.com/prius/documents...User-Guide.pdf
>>
>> So how do you start and accelerate in cruise control in the Prius?
>> What
>> is the trick?
>
> Can't answer the "how to start in cruise" part: never tried. If
> you think about it, start and/or accelerate are not big parts of
> cruising.
>
> Changing cruise speed I do by the book: flip cruise lever up (+1
> mph) or down (-1 mph).
> --
> Andrew Stephenson
>
That's just it, I don't think you can. I do see this as a Toyota flaw.
In my Jeep it remembers what the cruise was set at so after paying a toll
you can just go back to the former speed without needing to find it again.
Since that one is a 5-speed, I cannot try to have it go from the startup.

And, yep, changing the cruise speed is just as you note.
Tomes

Re: Re:What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 20:33:21 +0000, R PRINCETON wrote:

> I have noticed that the ICV in my Prius runs way more often than I
> expected, and for more than just recharging the batteries. The cute
> animation in the LCD display clearly shows that most of the time the ICV
> is powering the wheels, i.e., providing more power than the electric motor
> by itself can provide. I am suspicious that this is done so as to
> improve the Prius's "drivability" in the US; i.e., greater acceleration.
> Us Americans are accustomed to "tearing" away from the traffic light.


This is exactly it. They use the Gas engine more in the US to provide the
performance Americans expect.

The funny thing is, the average American Prius driver drives the damn car
like a silver-haired Granny in the 1964 F-85 she bought brand new 43 years
ago. So adding the EV mode would be a good idea on Toyota's part. In the
week I drove one, I spent some time crawling from a start, and found it
did NOTHING! I was getting better mileage with an AT Tercel. When I
started driving it 'normal', the numbers didn't budge.

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

In article <gTjBh.2094$x74.744@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.n et>,
"Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote:

> It is my unscientific belief that I regenerate more than I use,

You believe in myths or is it perpetual motion?

Re: Re:What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

"Hachiroku ????" <Trueno@AE86.gts> wrote in message
news:XDRBh.5880$am1.2065@trndny01...
> On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 20:33:21 +0000, R PRINCETON wrote:
>
>> I have noticed that the ICV in my Prius runs way more often than I
>> expected, and for more than just recharging the batteries. The cute
>> animation in the LCD display clearly shows that most of the time the ICV
>> is powering the wheels, i.e., providing more power than the electric
>> motor
>> by itself can provide. I am suspicious that this is done so as to
>> improve the Prius's "drivability" in the US; i.e., greater acceleration.
>> Us Americans are accustomed to "tearing" away from the traffic light.
>
>
> This is exactly it. They use the Gas engine more in the US to provide the
> performance Americans expect.
>
> The funny thing is, the average American Prius driver drives the damn car
> like a silver-haired Granny in the 1964 F-85 she bought brand new 43 years
> ago. So adding the EV mode would be a good idea on Toyota's part. In the
> week I drove one, I spent some time crawling from a start, and found it
> did NOTHING! I was getting better mileage with an AT Tercel. When I
> started driving it 'normal', the numbers didn't budge.
>

If the traction battery has the charged potential to move the car 1000 ft it
doesn't matter if it's at acceleration from a dead stop or dispersed for the
next couple of miles.
So, I agree with your experience 100%. I disagree with your one week
assessment of mpg though, unless you filled the tank several times during
that week.

Re: Re:What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

BTW, I'll be at Thorn's market today sometime around 1 pm. I'm easy to spot.
I won't be wearing a winter coat ;)

Re: What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

"You guess" <jackj^remove^180@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:37gft253roh0tm5d721o4ebdb9ikh0a81r@4ax.com...
>
> Stop and think about hybrids, what they are and how they work. Hybrids
> are nothing new, the railroads have been using them for since the
> 1940's. Almost all freight trains are pulled by diesel-electric
> locomotives. They use diesel-electric for one reason only. A pure
> diesel locomotive would require a clutch that you couldn't believe. It
> would have to slip for 10 minutes or more while the train was brought
> up to speed while transferring as much as 2,000 horse power to the
> traction wheels through a 50 speed transmission. The electrics take
> the place of this 40 foot diameter, electric fan cooled, multi-plate
> wet-clutch as well as the mechanical drive lines.
>
You are right about the way locomotives operate and why they are
diesel-electric (as are many truly huge machines). But you are mistaken to
call them hybrids - they have only one power source, the diesel engine. They
just have electric transmissions.

Hybrids today get their main efficiency improvement from not using the
engine as much to do ludicrously inefficient work. As the OP noted, the
engine is still used at times that don't make a lot of sense. Blame that on
the infancy of the technology.

> Your hybrid car is a political solution to a political problem. Your
> car has to haul around heavy batteries, a big generator to recharge
> the batteries and all the electronics needed to control the electric
> motor, the charge going into the batteries and monitoring the
> condition of the batteries. Plus it STILL has a gas IC engine and
> fuel tank to haul around.
>

Actually, it is an engineering solution to a fundamental conceptual problem.
Even as a teenager learning about cars I was struck by the horrible
inefficiencies of using large engines to put out negligible power for nearly
the entire range of the car's operation. But it was the '60s and gas was
cheap. When I first heard about hybrid power trains (around 20 years ago) I
immediately recognized them as the solution to the century-old problem.

>
> There is no way it can get the same over-all mileage and still have
> the same performance as a gasoline-only car.
>

Ah - that's where you are 100% wrong. One of the central characteristics of
hybridization is that the acceleration performance is independent of the
power plant capacity, just as a conventional power train's performance is
independent of fuel tank size. The engine can be off or just plain dead
without affecting the immediate performance of a serial hybrid (none in
production yet, sadly). A serial hybrid is essentially an electric car with
a charging system on-board. Right now the technology exists to build a
serial hybrid that will give the hottest conventional power trains a run for
their money; a Tesla (http://tinyurl.com/n52mh) with a small generator
tucked somewhere would qualify. Honda (http://tinyurl.com/y96x8o) and Toyota
(http://tinyurl.com/2w379) have both demonstrated concept cars that clearly
fall in the high performance range and deliver fuel economy in the miser
range - 400 hp and an estimated 40 mpg for the parallel hybrid Honda and 400
hp and 32 mpg for the series-parallel hybrid Toyota. Honda engineers pointed
out in the Popular Mechanics article back then that using electrics for
torque provides off-the-line acceleration equivalent to a 600 hp
conventional power train. Toyota simply mentions 0-60 mph in 4 seconds.

Mike

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

"who" <i@notaspammer.net> wrote in message
news:i-FAFC13.00570718022007@news.telus.net...
> In article <gTjBh.2094$x74.744@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.n et>,
> "Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote:
>
>> It is my unscientific belief that I regenerate more than I use,
>
> You believe in myths or is it perpetual motion?

I think you misunderstand the statement. If the meaning was "the car reuses
only part of the energy that was regenerated" that matches my experience and
even the logic - there is considerable loss and waste in the process. Toyota
says "up to 30%" of regenerated energy is reusable, so the process is pretty
lossy. But it isn't nearly as inefficient as getting the energy out of an
engine running at 10% power, so it still contributes to the overall gain.
There is a wide misconception that regeneration is a major source of
the hybrid's efficiency advantage. In actuality, it is a very minor
contributor.

Mike

Re: What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:14:04 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
<michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:

>"You guess" <jackj^remove^180@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>news:37gft253roh0tm5d721o4ebdb9ikh0a81r@4ax.com.. .
>>
>> Stop and think about hybrids, what they are and how they work. Hybrids
>> are nothing new, the railroads have been using them for since the
>> 1940's. Almost all freight trains are pulled by diesel-electric
>> locomotives. They use diesel-electric for one reason only. A pure
>> diesel locomotive would require a clutch that you couldn't believe. It
>> would have to slip for 10 minutes or more while the train was brought
>> up to speed while transferring as much as 2,000 horse power to the
>> traction wheels through a 50 speed transmission. The electrics take
>> the place of this 40 foot diameter, electric fan cooled, multi-plate
>> wet-clutch as well as the mechanical drive lines.
>>
>You are right about the way locomotives operate and why they are
>diesel-electric (as are many truly huge machines). But you are mistaken to
>call them hybrids - they have only one power source, the diesel engine. They
>just have electric transmissions.

Okay if you don't want to call a diesel-electric locomotive a hybrid,
that's fine with me. But you shouldn't call hybrid cars hybrids
either. They get all of their energy from their IC engine also. The
only difference is that hybrid cars also have a mechanical drive train
along with their electrical one.
>
>Hybrids today get their main efficiency improvement from not using the
>engine as much to do ludicrously inefficient work. As the OP noted, the
>engine is still used at times that don't make a lot of sense. Blame that on
>the infancy of the technology.

No, it uses the IC engine more. The IC engine powers the car at all
times, even when it isn't running. If the IC engine isn't running,
the car is using energy produced by the IC engine at some time in the
past and stored in the batteries.
>
>> Your hybrid car is a political solution to a political problem. Your
>> car has to haul around heavy batteries, a big generator to recharge
>> the batteries and all the electronics needed to control the electric
>> motor, the charge going into the batteries and monitoring the
>> condition of the batteries. Plus it STILL has a gas IC engine and
>> fuel tank to haul around.
>>
>
>Actually, it is an engineering solution to a fundamental conceptual problem.
>Even as a teenager learning about cars I was struck by the horrible
>inefficiencies of using large engines to put out negligible power for nearly
>the entire range of the car's operation. But it was the '60s and gas was
>cheap. When I first heard about hybrid power trains (around 20 years ago) I
>immediately recognized them as the solution to the century-old problem.
>
>>
>> There is no way it can get the same over-all mileage and still have
>> the same performance as a gasoline-only car.
>>
>
>Ah - that's where you are 100% wrong. One of the central characteristics of
>hybridization is that the acceleration performance is independent of the
>power plant capacity, just as a conventional power train's performance is
>independent of fuel tank size. The engine can be off or just plain dead
>without affecting the immediate performance of a serial hybrid (none in
>production yet, sadly). A serial hybrid is essentially an electric car with
>a charging system on-board. Right now the technology exists to build a
>serial hybrid that will give the hottest conventional power trains a run for
>their money; a Tesla (http://tinyurl.com/n52mh) with a small generator
>tucked somewhere would qualify. Honda (http://tinyurl.com/y96x8o) and Toyota
>(http://tinyurl.com/2w379) have both demonstrated concept cars that clearly
>fall in the high performance range and deliver fuel economy in the miser
>range - 400 hp and an estimated 40 mpg for the parallel hybrid Honda and 400
>hp and 32 mpg for the series-parallel hybrid Toyota. Honda engineers pointed
>out in the Popular Mechanics article back then that using electrics for
>torque provides off-the-line acceleration equivalent to a 600 hp
>conventional power train. Toyota simply mentions 0-60 mph in 4 seconds.

You're confusing acceleration performance with efficiency.
>
>Mike
>
Mike, you can't ignore physics. It takes energy to accelerate mass.
Increase the mass and you have to increase the energy input to
maintain the same performance level. That's why all economy cars are
small and light. More mass also equals higher rolling resistance
which requires energy to overcome.

You can use a battery and electric motor to increase the acceleration
performance of a car with a small IC engine but you will have to put
back the energy you have used at sometime in the future. Each time
you convert from one form of energy to another, you will have losses
which can't be overcome. You start out with the chemical energy
contained in a gallon of gas. Then you burn that gas to produce heat
energy but you can't capture all of the heat. You convert that heat
energy into mechanical energy with an IC engine which has internal
friction losses. Both hybrids and conventional cars have these same
losses. To this, a hybrid car adds changing that mechanical energy
into electrical energy using an alternator, friction losses and heat
losses. You use that electrical energy to recharge a battery
converting electrical energy back into chemical energy with it's
associated losses. Then, at some time in the future, you discharge
that battery converting its chemical energy back into electrical
energy with more losses and that electrical energy back into
mechanical energy with even more losses.

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Perpitual motion is a
thing of fiction. If you believe all of these conversion losses add
up to an increase in efficiency then you might want to buy this
ethanol plant I have for sale.

Don't get me wrong, I like ethanol. When its aged in charred oak
barrels for 10 years or so and then mixed with a little water. But
burn it for fuel....man, that's just plain wrong.


---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 000714-3, 02/18/2007
Tested on: 2/18/2007 10:50:43 AM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 04:56:22 GMT, "Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote:

>"Andrew Stephenson" wrote ...
>> "Tomes" writes:
>>> Ah - I found it: "Slowing down to less than 24 MPH (39 km/h) will cause
>>> the cruise-control "resume" memory to reset. So if you have to slow
>>> down
>>> or stop, you'll need to set the speed again." - From the Toyota Prius
>>> User
>>> Guide
>>> http://john1701a.com/prius/documents...User-Guide.pdf
>>>
>>> So how do you start and accelerate in cruise control in the Prius?
>>> What
>>> is the trick?
>>
>> Can't answer the "how to start in cruise" part: never tried. If
>> you think about it, start and/or accelerate are not big parts of
>> cruising.
>>
>> Changing cruise speed I do by the book: flip cruise lever up (+1
>> mph) or down (-1 mph).
>> --
>> Andrew Stephenson
>>
>That's just it, I don't think you can. I do see this as a Toyota flaw.
>In my Jeep it remembers what the cruise was set at so after paying a toll
>you can just go back to the former speed without needing to find it again.
>Since that one is a 5-speed, I cannot try to have it go from the startup.
>
>And, yep, changing the cruise speed is just as you note.
>Tomes

I guess every manufacturer does it differently. Honda cruise control
will remember the speed until you shut off the engine or at least the
CC master switch. However, the CC cannot be engaged at speeds below
~20 mph. I think they want to prevent someone from inadvertently
engaging the CC and having the car jump from a stationary position.

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

Gordon McGrew wrote:
> I rode in a friend's Prius and he showed me that the engine started up
> before he hit 5 mph even under mild acceleration. I thought the
> difference between the "full" hybrids like Prius and "mild" hybrids
> like the Civic was the ability of the former to operate as a pure
> electric over a modest range of conditions. It would seem that the
> Prius' all electric performance is very modest indeed. Is this
> correct?

The Prius can run for a very short time on battery only, but the battery
pack isn't large enough to run the car very long or very fast on battery
power alone.

Re: What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 22:32:54 -0500, You guess
<jackj^remove^180@adelphia.net> wrote:

>On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 09:00:56 GMT, "R PRINCETON"
><rlanni@access4less.net> wrote:
>
>>Unbelievable! 11 answers and counting and no-one answers my original
>>question! Are you all a bunch of politicians!?!?!?!
>>
>>OK, enough ranting....
>>
>>Ignoring, increased wear and tear on the batteries or engine, total energy
>>equations involving my old coal powered power plant; and any disturbances in
>>subspace temporal harmonics....
>>
>>DID THE EV only switch increase peoples mileage? and by how much?
>>
>>
>>thank you
>>
>>-ralph
>
>Ralph,
>
>Stop and think about hybrids, what they are and how they work. Hybrids
>are nothing new, the railroads have been using them for since the
>1940's. Almost all freight trains are pulled by diesel-electric
>locomotives. They use diesel-electric for one reason only. A pure
>diesel locomotive would require a clutch that you couldn't believe. It
>would have to slip for 10 minutes or more while the train was brought
>up to speed while transferring as much as 2,000 horse power to the
>traction wheels through a 50 speed transmission. The electrics take
>the place of this 40 foot diameter, electric fan cooled, multi-plate
>wet-clutch as well as the mechanical drive lines.
>
>Your hybrid car is a political solution to a political problem.

How is improving fuel efficiency a political problem?

> Your
>car has to haul around heavy batteries, a big generator to recharge
>the batteries and all the electronics needed to control the electric
>motor, the charge going into the batteries and monitoring the
>condition of the batteries. Plus it STILL has a gas IC engine and
>fuel tank to haul around.
>
>All of the mechanical inefficiencies are still there to which we add
>the electrical inefficiencies (alternator-85% efficient, electric
>motor-80% efficient, control circuity-85% to 90% efficient, battery
>recharge-60% to 70%)
>
>There is no way it can get the same over-all mileage and still have
>the same performance as a gasoline-only car.

Your theoretical argument about efficiencies reminds me of
creationists who want to make statistical arguments to claim evolution
couldn't happen. Dude, the proof is right before your face. Hybrids
get much better mileage than a similar/identical car with similar
performance with only an ICE.

>If you want an electric car, fine---buy one. But just remember, there
>is a reason why the Baker Electrics and Stanley Steamers aren't sold
>any more.
>
>Jack
>