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Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
"Bill Tuthill" <ccreekin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45d8ea26@news.meer.net... > In alt.autos.toyota Michael Pardee <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote: >> >> There is a wide misconception that regeneration is a major source >> of the hybrid's efficiency advantage. In actuality, it is a very minor >> contributor. > > What are the major contributors, then? > > I'd have to assume shutting down the engine at stoplights helps a lot > for the EPA city mileage number. > > Good aerodynamics and tires with low rolling resistance, certainly. > > Thinking about it, regeneration might be minor, but not "very" minor. > What else could cause the jump from 30 to 50 MPG? > Reducing the amount of time the engine runs at very low efficiency is the big one. As the topic illustrates, the present Toyota system isn't very aggresive at that but it still shuts the engine down and uses electrics enough of the time to avoid wasting about half the gasoline in low speed use. With more powerful electrics (and especially if it becomes practical to include battery power that will carry a car at full load over major mountain ranges) the engine can also be downsized. Accelerator response and passing are the rightful domain of electric power, rather than increasing engine power and thus reducing efficiency even more in normal use; that darned Second Law of Thermodynamics again. Mike |
Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
In alt.autos.toyota Andrew Stephenson <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> > 2004-2007 UK tire >> > Bridgestone Turanza ER30 >> > 195/55R16 > > Bridgestone Turanza. Couldn't make out the associated numbers. > But the tyres fit fine. :-) Thanks! > I hope you lot appreciate that this effort was above and beyond > the call of any duty. Where do I apply for my medals? We will award you the Parliamentary medal of freedom (all rubber). > BTW, why don't they fit Integras in this market? Mine was made > in *.jp, so they can't be any harder to find. Conflicting road > demands and/or national car type certification conditions? The Turanza has better resistance to hydroplaning and longer tread life. Here are the Consumer Reports ratings of it: Braking - good Cornering - poor Emergency handling - good With ABS - good Hydroplaning - good Snow traction - poor Ice braking - poor Steering feel - good Impact - fair Noise - fair Rolling resistance - poor Tread wear - very good |
Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
"Bill Tuthill" <ccreekin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45d8eaaa@news.meer.net... > In alt.autos.toyota Chuck Olson <chuckolson01@removethiscomcast.net> > wrote: >> >> As most have said, the battery has to be charged above a specific >> threshold >> for the ICE to turn off. I have found that you also need to be in cruise >> control. Normal driving with foot on the accelerator just doesn't produce >> electric-only operation except at very slow side-street speeds. I guess >> that's because the Prius computer doesn't trust human beings to drive at >> a >> single fixed speed. My favorite EV speed in cruise control is 34 MPH. > > Interesting advice -- I'll have to try this. > >> To make sure the battery is charged and ready for EV operation, you need >> to >> apply fairly heavy braking from freeway speed.. Just slowing down slowly >> doesn't charge up the battery very efficiently. Unfortunately this kind >> of >> driving is uncomfortable for passengers, so don't do it unless you're >> alone. >> Also, make sure you brake before you hit a curve or encounter cross >> traffic. > > The B transmission setting is my favored way of doing this. I believe > it saves the brake pads, and it does not bother my passengers. > I recommend just using the brakes - they don't normally use friction above 12 mph or so. The brakes on my 106K mile Prius are nearly at original thickness. "B" mode is somewhat less efficient than using the brakes, because it reduces regeneration. That doesn't make a huge difference, but just braking is easier, too. "B" mode is useful on long downhills, especially if the drop is more than 2000 ft. When the battery is fully charged the friction brakes start getting wear. Mike |
Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
In article <45d8fe39@news.meer.net> ccreekin@yahoo.com "Bill
Tuthill" writes: > In alt.autos.toyota Andrew Stephenson > <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > > I hope you lot appreciate that this effort was above and beyond > > the call of any duty. Where do I apply for my medals? > > We will award you the Parliamentary medal of freedom (all > rubber). Okay, so long as it doesn't bounce. (OT: OTOH, if Parliament is involved, some kind of dodginess seems likely.) > > BTW, why don't they fit Integras in this market? Mine was made > > in *.jp, so they can't be any harder to find. Conflicting road > > demands and/or national car type certification conditions? > > The Turanza has better resistance to hydroplaning and longer > tread life. Here are the Consumer Reports ratings of it: > > [...] Hmm, yes. It does rain occasionally in the UK, more than in the sunny parts of *.ca.us at least. And snow has been short lately. Ta. I shall luxuriate in that low wear and loss of hydroplaning, while maintaining the proper tyre pressures. -- Andrew Stephenson |
Re: What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 10:50:42 -0500, You guess
<jackj^remove^180@adelphia.net> wrote: >There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Perpitual motion is a >thing of fiction. If you believe all of these conversion losses add >up to an increase in efficiency then you might want to buy this >ethanol plant I have for sale. Please advise us how these grossly inefficient vehicles get this kind of mileage: http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/ |
Re: What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 14:23:29 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
<michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote: >"You guess" <jackj^remove^180@adelphia.net> wrote in message >news:1sogt2d22bgfhisiksaapvu88dnls9itro@4ax.com.. . >> On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:14:04 -0700, "Michael Pardee" >> <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote: >> >>> Mike, This is going to be my last on this subject. I'm not going to convince you and you're not going to convince me. You don't point to any hard info on increased efficiency, you just say it is so. I have read where some of the Toyota and Honda hybrid customers are not happy. They are not getting the mileage the sicker says they should. They aren't missing the figure by 4 or 5%, they're missing it by 25 to 30%. They have gotten some lawyer to file a class action suit. No great challenge that and filing a law suit doesn't prove anything, I grant you. But it does show that not everyone is tickled pink with their hybrid. I own a 2006 Corolla. It has a small IC engine and gets good mileage while delivering reasonable performance, that's why I bought it. An honest 35 to 37 mpg on the highway at 60 mph. Mileage around town is less but still in the mid 20's. The reason why it gets better mileage than my Mercury Grand Marquis is because it's small and light and doesn't have as much engine. Two of the Toyota engines still wouldn't make the V8 that is in my Merc. The Merc gets around 28 to 29 mpg at 60 mph but only about 15 to 17 mpg around town. The Merc has 2 major things working against it on mileage, weight and air resistance. It's about as stream-lined as a book case and weighs almost as much as 2 Corolla's. What I'm trying to point out is that I could never get the Mercury to get the same mileage as the Corolla. If I put the engine and drive train from my Corolla into my Mercury, it wouldn't get anywhere near the mileage of the Corolla. But the performance would be a lot worse than either of them furnish now. Adding an electric motor, batteries and the control circuitry of a hybrid to the existing drive train of the Mercury would only further decrease the mileage. I also will never get the Corolla to be as comfortable as the Mercury. I can drive the Grand Marquis for hours without getting tired but the Corolla has me squirming around in less than an hour. You mentioned that you decided while you were still in high school that automobiles were inefficient and I agree. But adding more inefficient elements to the mix won't make for greater efficiency. I could be a smart a-- here and say that some folks believe in Global Warming, that CFC's cause the Ozone hole over the South Pole, the Easter bunny and Santa Claus....but I won't. hehehe I think I'll go mix some aged ethanol from Tennessee with water and ice now. I've enjoyed the discussion but I'm not going to respond to anything else on the subject. Thanks Jack --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 000714-3, 02/18/2007 Tested on: 2/18/2007 9:09:27 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com |
Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
"who" <i@notaspammer.net> wrote in message news:i-FAFC13.00570718022007@news.telus.net... > In article <gTjBh.2094$x74.744@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.n et>, > "Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote: > >> It is my unscientific belief that I regenerate more than I use, > > You believe in myths or is it perpetual motion? It is my belief that you are misrepresenting what I said, taken out of context. I will try it this way: I generate a certain amount of energy stored in the batteries, and only use less of that than I would like. Tomes |
Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
"Bill Tuthill" <ccreekin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45d8ea26@news.meer.net... > In alt.autos.toyota Michael Pardee <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote: >> >> There is a wide misconception that regeneration is a major source >> of the hybrid's efficiency advantage. In actuality, it is a very minor >> contributor. > > What are the major contributors, then? > > I'd have to assume shutting down the engine at stoplights helps a lot > for the EPA city mileage number. > > Good aerodynamics and tires with low rolling resistance, certainly. > > Thinking about it, regeneration might be minor, but not "very" minor. > What else could cause the jump from 30 to 50 MPG? > I wish it had tires of low rolling resistance. The ones on there are only normal rolling resistance. Tomes (otherwise generally agreeing here) |
Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
"Gordon McGrew" <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:gnugt2tp0ltt1qf3531t4312b6ngsgnemi@4ax.com... > On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 04:56:22 GMT, "Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote: > >>"Andrew Stephenson" wrote ... >>> "Tomes" writes: >>>> Ah - I found it: "Slowing down to less than 24 MPH (39 km/h) will >>>> cause >>>> the cruise-control "resume" memory to reset. So if you have to slow >>>> down >>>> or stop, you'll need to set the speed again." - From the Toyota Prius >>>> User >>>> Guide >>>> http://john1701a.com/prius/documents...User-Guide.pdf >>>> >>>> So how do you start and accelerate in cruise control in the Prius? >>>> What >>>> is the trick? >>> >>> Can't answer the "how to start in cruise" part: never tried. If >>> you think about it, start and/or accelerate are not big parts of >>> cruising. >>> >>> Changing cruise speed I do by the book: flip cruise lever up (+1 >>> mph) or down (-1 mph). >>> -- >>> Andrew Stephenson >>> >>That's just it, I don't think you can. I do see this as a Toyota flaw. >>In my Jeep it remembers what the cruise was set at so after paying a >>toll >>you can just go back to the former speed without needing to find it >>again. >>Since that one is a 5-speed, I cannot try to have it go from the >>startup. >> >>And, yep, changing the cruise speed is just as you note. >>Tomes > > I guess every manufacturer does it differently. Honda cruise control > will remember the speed until you shut off the engine or at least the > CC master switch. However, the CC cannot be engaged at speeds below > ~20 mph. I think they want to prevent someone from inadvertently > engaging the CC and having the car jump from a stationary position. > > That's another thing. The minimum speed thing on CC. Why not let it start at 10 MPH or so? I use it a lot when the speed limit is, say, 40MPH. It prevents me from accidentally going faster, which I can so easily do. But I cannot use it for a speed limit of 30, which we have around here on windy rural back roads. I would really like to set it at 33 and just let it go, but alas I cannot. I perceive this as another flaw. (The Jeep is the same way, engages at about 35). Tomes |
Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
"Andrew Stephenson" wrote...
> "Bill Tuthill" writes: >> mrv@kluge.net wrote: >> > >> > 2004-2007 UK tire >> > Bridgestone Turanza ER30 >> > 195/55R16 >> > 87V >> >> That would go partway to explaining why a US Prius gets better >> mileage than a UK Prius. Although I can't find the exact size, >> Turanza have significantly higher rolling resistance than >> Goodyear Integrity tires. [...] > > For the sake of the experimental data, I have just been outside > to check my 2005 UK Prius: out in the dark dank chill with just > my feeble torch for company, as winds moaned and owls hooted... > > Bridgestone Turanza. Couldn't make out the associated numbers. > But the tyres fit fine. :-) > > I hope you lot appreciate that this effort was above and beyond > the call of any duty. Where do I apply for my medals? > > BTW, why don't they fit Integras in this market? Mine was made > in *.jp, so they can't be any harder to find. Conflicting road > demands and/or national car type certification conditions? > -- > Andrew Stephenson > I was just out there too putting some more air into the Prius' tires (in response to a RayO post that spurred me on), and saw that the Integras were "Made in Japan", stamped right on the tire sidewall. If the car came from Japan (which I believe they all do), they made a conscious choice to fit yours with the Bridgestones instead of the Goodyears. Tomes |
Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
<mrv@kluge.net> wrote ...
> "Tomes" wrote: > >> It is my unscientific belief that I regenerate more than I use, based >> upon >> my observation that I am in the green a lot and hardly ever go below >> half >> of the blue. Thus, I would like to use the electric moreso that it >> does >> by default. > > You can view the NHW20 Prius battery charge levels at: > http://privatenrg.com/#Full_SOC > > You'd know if you regenerated too much energy by your Prius trying to > get rid of extra charge. People who have just come down a long > downhill (mountain) often report that at a stop their engine will > cycle on/off repeatedly. The Prius will try to bleed off the high SOC > by having one of the electric motors repeatedly start and spin the > gasoline engine... > > (Also, if the hybrid battery cannot accept any more charge, it simply > will not. You will no longer have regenerative braking, and will be > switched to a higher percentage of conventional hydrolic braking.) > > If you are just driving around in the green and don't notice anything > else different, then you aren't regenerating more than you can use... > Now that is a website I had not found yet. I will go back to that for a read, but now right now (bookmarked). Thanks plenty. My point is just a little bit off from what you are saying (and thanks for saying it). My angle is that I would like the Prius to use the electric motor moreso than it does now. I believe that I generate enough that it ought to do that. Tomes |
Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone? - B Mode
"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
news:t6GdnWhyqMj3nUTYnZ2dnUVZ_vmqnZ2d@sedona.net.. . > "Bill Tuthill" <ccreekin@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:45d8eaaa@news.meer.net... >> In alt.autos.toyota Chuck Olson <chuckolson01@removethiscomcast.net> >> wrote: >>> >>> As most have said, the battery has to be charged above a specific >>> threshold >>> for the ICE to turn off. I have found that you also need to be in >>> cruise >>> control. Normal driving with foot on the accelerator just doesn't >>> produce >>> electric-only operation except at very slow side-street speeds. I >>> guess >>> that's because the Prius computer doesn't trust human beings to drive >>> at a >>> single fixed speed. My favorite EV speed in cruise control is 34 MPH. >> >> Interesting advice -- I'll have to try this. >> >>> To make sure the battery is charged and ready for EV operation, you >>> need to >>> apply fairly heavy braking from freeway speed.. Just slowing down >>> slowly >>> doesn't charge up the battery very efficiently. Unfortunately this >>> kind of >>> driving is uncomfortable for passengers, so don't do it unless you're >>> alone. >>> Also, make sure you brake before you hit a curve or encounter cross >>> traffic. >> >> The B transmission setting is my favored way of doing this. I believe >> it saves the brake pads, and it does not bother my passengers. >> > > I recommend just using the brakes - they don't normally use friction > above 12 mph or so. The brakes on my 106K mile Prius are nearly at > original thickness. > > "B" mode is somewhat less efficient than using the brakes, because it > reduces regeneration. That doesn't make a huge difference, but just > braking is easier, too. "B" mode is useful on long downhills, especially > if the drop is more than 2000 ft. When the battery is fully charged the > friction brakes start getting wear. > OK, I know I have read this, and what I have read has not always been the same thing. In your words, what exactly does 'B' mode do and how? Thanks. Tomes |
Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
"Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote in message news:TT8Ch.3218$_73.2885@newsread2.news.pas.earthl ink.net... <snipped> > I guess every manufacturer does it differently. Honda cruise control >> will remember the speed until you shut off the engine or at least the >> CC master switch. However, the CC cannot be engaged at speeds below >> ~20 mph. I think they want to prevent someone from inadvertently >> engaging the CC and having the car jump from a stationary position. >> >> > That's another thing. The minimum speed thing on CC. Why not let it > start at 10 MPH or so? I use it a lot when the speed limit is, say, > 40MPH. It prevents me from accidentally going faster, which I can so > easily do. But I cannot use it for a speed limit of 30, which we have > around here on windy rural back roads. I would really like to set it at > 33 and just let it go, but alas I cannot. I perceive this as another > flaw. (The Jeep is the same way, engages at about 35). > Tomes IIRC, the minimum speed to set cruise control on a Toyota is around 25 MPH, below which, the CC will not set and the memory clears. I can set the CC on our 3 Toyotas at 30 MPH, which I do in areas where the police often sit ;-) -- Ray O (correct punctuation to reply) |
Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone? - B Mode
"Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote in message news:v99Ch.3213$x74.1861@newsread4.news.pas.earthl ink.net... <snipped>> >> "B" mode is somewhat less efficient than using the brakes, because it >> reduces regeneration. That doesn't make a huge difference, but just >> braking is easier, too. "B" mode is useful on long downhills, especially >> if the drop is more than 2000 ft. When the battery is fully charged the >> friction brakes start getting wear. >> > > OK, I know I have read this, and what I have read has not always been the > same thing. In your words, what exactly does 'B' mode do and how? Thanks. > Tomes According to the faq section at www.toyota.com: "B" is the position for engine braking. Engine braking assists the brakes in slowing the vehicle. It serves a similar function to downshifting on an automatic transmission. This position is intended for going down long declines, and utilizes the electric motor to slow the vehicle and regenerate electricity. For more information please reference Section 2 of your Owner's Manual. -- Ray O (correct punctuation to reply) |
Re: What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 21:09:26 -0500, You guess
<jackj^remove^180@adelphia.net> wrote: >On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 14:23:29 -0700, "Michael Pardee" ><michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote: > >>"You guess" <jackj^remove^180@adelphia.net> wrote in message >>news:1sogt2d22bgfhisiksaapvu88dnls9itro@4ax.com. .. >>> On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:14:04 -0700, "Michael Pardee" >>> <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >Mike, > >This is going to be my last on this subject. I'm not going to >convince you and you're not going to convince me. > >You don't point to any hard info on increased efficiency, you just say >it is so. Here is some pretty good evidence: http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/ > I have read where some of the Toyota and Honda hybrid >customers are not happy. http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0.../cr_prius.html Prius Ranks #1 in Owner Satisfaction >They are not getting the mileage the sicker >says they should. They aren't missing the figure by 4 or 5%, they're >missing it by 25 to 30%. They have gotten some lawyer to file a class >action suit. Do you have a citation for this? Couldn't find it on Google. > No great challenge that and filing a law suit doesn't >prove anything, I grant you. But it does show that not everyone is >tickled pink with their hybrid. > >I own a 2006 Corolla. It has a small IC engine and gets good mileage >while delivering reasonable performance, that's why I bought it. An >honest 35 to 37 mpg on the highway at 60 mph. Mileage around town is >less but still in the mid 20's. The reason why it gets better mileage >than my Mercury Grand Marquis is because it's small and light and >doesn't have as much engine. Two of the Toyota engines still wouldn't >make the V8 that is in my Merc. > >The Merc gets around 28 to 29 mpg at 60 mph but only about 15 to 17 >mpg around town. The Merc has 2 major things working against it on >mileage, weight and air resistance. It's about as stream-lined as a >book case and weighs almost as much as 2 Corolla's. > >What I'm trying to point out is that I could never get the Mercury to >get the same mileage as the Corolla. If I put the engine and drive >train from my Corolla into my Mercury, it wouldn't get anywhere near >the mileage of the Corolla. But the performance would be a lot worse >than either of them furnish now. Adding an electric motor, batteries >and the control circuitry of a hybrid to the existing drive train of >the Mercury would only further decrease the mileage. According to Consumer Reports, Civic gets: Hybrid EX Si 1.3L CVT 1.8L AT 2.0L MT overall mileage, mpg 37 28 27 city/highway, mpg 26/47 18/43 19/35 150-mile trip, mpg 45 34 32 EPA city/highway, mpg 49/51 30/40 23/32 0-30 mph, sec. 4.4 3.6 2.7 0-60 mph, sec. 11.7 10.1 7.0 Quarter mile, sec. 18.8 17.7 15.4 Quarter mile, mph 77 80 94 45-65 mph, sec. 7.3 6.0 4.5 What I want is the Si Hybrid. > >I also will never get the Corolla to be as comfortable as the Mercury. >I can drive the Grand Marquis for hours without getting tired but the >Corolla has me squirming around in less than an hour. > >You mentioned that you decided while you were still in high school >that automobiles were inefficient and I agree. But adding more >inefficient elements to the mix won't make for greater efficiency. > >I could be a smart a-- here and say that some folks believe in Global >Warming, that CFC's cause the Ozone hole over the South Pole, the >Easter bunny and Santa Claus....but I won't. hehehe You will. > >I think I'll go mix some aged ethanol from Tennessee with water and >ice now. I've enjoyed the discussion but I'm not going to respond to >anything else on the subject. > >Thanks >Jack > > >--- >avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. >Virus Database (VPS): 000714-3, 02/18/2007 >Tested on: 2/18/2007 9:09:27 PM >avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software. >http://www.avast.com > > |
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