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Jay	07-22-2003 05:57 PM

(quit in the heat) 91 Honda Civic

I just got back from towing my daughter's 91 Civic DX back to the house. It
is 103 degrees in Salt Lake City today and the car quit in the middle of a
busy intersection.

The engine turns over and cranks just fine but it does sound a little
different while cranking. It sounds a little more like it is free wheeling
(possibly) rather than turning under compression. I guess that could be
because of a couple of things....but not being an expert on this particular
model I could sure use some advice. Help! What to check first?

Jay C.

Jay C.

07-22-2003 07:03 PM

Re: (quit in the heat) 91 Honda Civic

Thanks, I'm in denial about the timing belt...please don't let it be that,
please don't let it be that...:-)

We just drove 500 highway miles yesterday without any problems. I guess we
should be lucky that things didn't go haywire while we were 250 miles away
from home.

Does the 91 Civic have a piston/valve killer engine in the event that the
timing belt broke? Are the clearances that close?

Thanks again,

Jay C.

"Bill Kapaun" <bkapaun@coldmail.com> wrote in message
news:bkapaun-2207031524130001@dialup-ras14-65.eug.or.uspops.net...
> In article <nriTa.119388$N7.16718@sccrnsc03>, "Jay" <jay@jaycatmull.com>
wrote:
>
> > I just got back from towing my daughter's 91 Civic DX back to the house.
It
> > is 103 degrees in Salt Lake City today and the car quit in the middle of
a
> > busy intersection.
> >
> > The engine turns over and cranks just fine but it does sound a little
> > different while cranking. It sounds a little more like it is free
wheeling
> > (possibly) rather than turning under compression. I guess that could be
> > because of a couple of things....but not being an expert on this
particular
> > model I could sure use some advice. Help! What to check first?
> >
> > Jay C.
>
> If you are SURE it sounds different, I'd pull the valve cover and see if
> the timing belt broke. It's a pretty simple job to visually inspect.
>
> A COMMON problem with Hondas and the heat, is the Main Relay failing. This
> usually results in the car failing to restart after driving, not just
> quitting. It's a dinstinct possibility however if the TB is good.

Bill Kapaun

07-22-2003 07:23 PM

Re: (quit in the heat) 91 Honda Civic

In article <nriTa.119388$N7.16718@sccrnsc03>, "Jay" <jay@jaycatmull.com> wrote:

> I just got back from towing my daughter's 91 Civic DX back to the house. It
> is 103 degrees in Salt Lake City today and the car quit in the middle of a
> busy intersection.
>
> The engine turns over and cranks just fine but it does sound a little
> different while cranking. It sounds a little more like it is free wheeling
> (possibly) rather than turning under compression. I guess that could be
> because of a couple of things....but not being an expert on this particular
> model I could sure use some advice. Help! What to check first?
>
> Jay C.

If you are SURE it sounds different, I'd pull the valve cover and see if
the timing belt broke. It's a pretty simple job to visually inspect.

A COMMON problem with Hondas and the heat, is the Main Relay failing. This
usually results in the car failing to restart after driving, not just
quitting. It's a dinstinct possibility however if the TB is good.

Tom	07-23-2003 12:42 AM

Re: (quit in the heat) 91 Honda Civic

Jay C. wrote:
>
> I pulled the valve cover off and visually inspected the belt. It appeared
> to be laying in place around the cam pulley so I wiggled the part of the
> belt that I could reach which was running toward the crank. It seemed to be
> in place and not broken. Is there another simple but better way to test the
> belt other than what I did?
>
> The engine doesn't really sound "free-wheeling" but more like spark or fuel
> problems. Maybe when the temperature outside comes down from ludicrous to
> insane, I'll go out to work on the car some more. In the mean time if you
> have any other suggestions please pass them along.

If you still have the valve cover off, have someone kick the starter
briefly. If the belt doesn't turn, that's it. Alternatively, pull the
distributor cap and do the same thing. If the rotor doesn't turn,
timing belt. The civic has an interference engine, but at miminal speed
it's unlikely there is any damage, valve springs will settle cam
in clear position.

Given the hot conditions, it could very well be the main relay, typical
of this year honda. It may start once it cools down. When you turn
the key to on position(not start), listen for the fuel pump to turn on
for about 2-3 seconds, at which time the engine light should go off.
If this doesn't happen, it's probably the relay.

http://members.rogers.com/john-ings/MainRelay.HTM

'Curly Q. Links'

07-23-2003 12:51 AM

Re: (quit in the heat) 91 Honda Civic

Jay wrote:
>
> I just got back from towing my daughter's 91 Civic DX back to the house. It
> is 103 degrees in Salt Lake City today and the car quit in the middle of a
> busy intersection.
>
> The engine turns over and cranks just fine but it does sound a little
> different while cranking. It sounds a little more like it is free wheeling
> (possibly) rather than turning under compression. I guess that could be
> because of a couple of things....but not being an expert on this particular
> model I could sure use some advice. Help! What to check first?
>
> Jay C.

-----------------------

Jay,
Take off the distributor cap and turn the engine over. A broken belt
won't turn the camshaft, so the rotor will remain stationary. High heat
has probably caused your Main relay to fry the solder joints to death.

http://members.rogers.com/john-ings/MainRelay.HTM

Let us know what you find!

'Curly'
--

To REPLY: You must remove two underscores from the return address to
reply directly . . . . . .

Regarding stage performances: When everyone else has finished playing,
you should not play any notes you have left over. -

Bill Kapaun

07-23-2003 03:27 AM

Re: (quit in the heat) 91 Honda Civic

In article <HQjTa.110452$OZ2.21274@rwcrnsc54>, "Jay C."
<jay@jaycatmull.com> wrote:

> I pulled the valve cover off and visually inspected the belt. It appeared
> to be laying in place around the cam pulley so I wiggled the part of the
> belt that I could reach which was running toward the crank. It seemed to be
> in place and not broken. Is there another simple but better way to test the
> belt other than what I did?

It sounds like the belt is OK.
Simply put, the belt turns the camshaft. If the cam turns when the engine
is cranking, the belt is OK. Have someone crank the engine briefly while
observing the cam.
The distributor is driven by the end of the cam. One could remove the dist
cap and observe the rotor (while cranking) just to ensure everything is OK
there too.

One thing we haven't discussed is spark!
If you don't have it, it won't run!
You could have a failed ignitor or ignition coil if you don't have spark.
IIRC,Ignitor failure is not uncommon for this era Civic.

In a nutshell, if no fuel, probably Main Relay. If no spark, probably Ignitor.

--
To email, turn cold to hot.

Jay C.

07-23-2003 10:04 AM

Re: (quit in the heat) 91 Honda Civic

Okay, I visually inspected the timing belt last evening and it appeared to
be okay. It was in place and I could not wiggle it loose.

This morning I went out to listen for the fuel pump. Yep, I heard it too. I
removed the distributor cap to see if things were turning. Nope, the rotor
isn't moving when the engine is cranked. I suppose that the distributor is
fried?

I guess that is why the starting sounds a little different than normal;
because it isn't "free-wheeling" but it doesn't sound normal either.

Next step?

Jay C.

"Jay" <jay@jaycatmull.com> wrote in message
news:nriTa.119388$N7.16718@sccrnsc03...
> I just got back from towing my daughter's 91 Civic DX back to the house.
It
> is 103 degrees in Salt Lake City today and the car quit in the middle of a
> busy intersection.
>
> The engine turns over and cranks just fine but it does sound a little
> different while cranking. It sounds a little more like it is free
wheeling
> (possibly) rather than turning under compression. I guess that could be
> because of a couple of things....but not being an expert on this
particular
> model I could sure use some advice. Help! What to check first?
>
> Jay C.
>
>

Stephen Bigelow

07-23-2003 10:25 AM

Re: (quit in the heat) 91 Honda Civic

"Jay C." <jay@jaycatmull.com> wrote in message
news:yBwTa.115347$sY2.52036@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att. net...
> Okay, I visually inspected the timing belt last evening and it appeared to
> be okay. It was in place and I could not wiggle it loose.

Good.

> This morning I went out to listen for the fuel pump. Yep, I heard it too.
I
> removed the distributor cap to see if things were turning. Nope, the
rotor
> isn't moving when the engine is cranked. I suppose that the distributor
is
> fried?

Bad.
Are you SURE you inspected the *timing* belt? (Sorry, but I have no idea of
your mechanical knowledge.)

> I guess that is why the starting sounds a little different than normal;
> because it isn't "free-wheeling" but it doesn't sound normal either.
>
> Next step?
>
> Jay C.
>
>
>
> "Jay" <jay@jaycatmull.com> wrote in message
> news:nriTa.119388$N7.16718@sccrnsc03...
> > I just got back from towing my daughter's 91 Civic DX back to the house.
> It
> > is 103 degrees in Salt Lake City today and the car quit in the middle of
a
> > busy intersection.
> >
> > The engine turns over and cranks just fine but it does sound a little
> > different while cranking. It sounds a little more like it is free
> wheeling
> > (possibly) rather than turning under compression. I guess that could be
> > because of a couple of things....but not being an expert on this
> particular
> > model I could sure use some advice. Help! What to check first?
> >
> > Jay C.
> >
> >
>
>

Jay C.

07-23-2003 10:30 AM

Re: (quit in the heat) 91 Honda Civic

I pulled the valve cover off and then pulled away the plastic belt cover so
I could tug on the belt. I even put a 12 mm socket on the cam pulley to see
if it would turn and maybe show me the belt problem. That pulley wouldn't
turn very easily at all, so I didn't force it. I concluded from that, that
the belt was still in tact. Should I do something else to confirm the belt
condition?

Jay C.

"Stephen Bigelow" <sbigelowXLX@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:0VwTa.19262$Ii1.3117@news02.bloor.is.net.cabl e.rogers.com...
>
> "Jay C." <jay@jaycatmull.com> wrote in message
> news:yBwTa.115347$sY2.52036@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att. net...
> > Okay, I visually inspected the timing belt last evening and it appeared
to
> > be okay. It was in place and I could not wiggle it loose.
>
> Good.
>
> > This morning I went out to listen for the fuel pump. Yep, I heard it
too.
> I
> > removed the distributor cap to see if things were turning. Nope, the
> rotor
> > isn't moving when the engine is cranked. I suppose that the distributor
> is
> > fried?
>
> Bad.
> Are you SURE you inspected the *timing* belt? (Sorry, but I have no idea
of
> your mechanical knowledge.)
>
>
> > I guess that is why the starting sounds a little different than normal;
> > because it isn't "free-wheeling" but it doesn't sound normal either.
> >
> > Next step?
> >
> > Jay C.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Jay" <jay@jaycatmull.com> wrote in message
> > news:nriTa.119388$N7.16718@sccrnsc03...
> > > I just got back from towing my daughter's 91 Civic DX back to the
house.
> > It
> > > is 103 degrees in Salt Lake City today and the car quit in the middle
of
> a
> > > busy intersection.
> > >
> > > The engine turns over and cranks just fine but it does sound a little
> > > different while cranking. It sounds a little more like it is free
> > wheeling
> > > (possibly) rather than turning under compression. I guess that could
be
> > > because of a couple of things....but not being an expert on this
> > particular
> > > model I could sure use some advice. Help! What to check first?
> > >
> > > Jay C.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Jay C.

07-23-2003 10:30 AM

Re: (quit in the heat) 91 Honda Civic

Jay C.

07-23-2003 11:29 AM

Re: (quit in the heat) 91 Honda Civic

I didn't try that last night but I just did. The cam DOESN'T turn. So,
that indicates that either the belt is broken and jammed down on the crank
area so I can't see it or that the starter isn't engaging (doubtful) or...
Hmmm. What else? Keep up the good work you guys and we'll get to the
bottom of this yet.

Jay C.

"Stephen Bigelow" <sbigelowXLX@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:c8xTa.19424$Ii1.13594@news02.bloor.is.net.cab le.rogers.com...
>
> "Jay C." <jay@jaycatmull.com> wrote in message
> news:TZwTa.115390$sY2.51159@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att. net...
> > I pulled the valve cover off and then pulled away the plastic belt cover
> so
> > I could tug on the belt. I even put a 12 mm socket on the cam pulley to
> see
> > if it would turn and maybe show me the belt problem. That pulley
wouldn't
> > turn very easily at all, so I didn't force it. I concluded from that,
> that
> > the belt was still in tact. Should I do something else to confirm the
> belt
> > condition?
>
> Does the camshaft turn when you crank?
>
>
> > "Stephen Bigelow" <sbigelowXLX@rogers.com> wrote in message
> > news:0VwTa.19262$Ii1.3117@news02.bloor.is.net.cabl e.rogers.com...
> > >
> > > "Jay C." <jay@jaycatmull.com> wrote in message
> > > news:yBwTa.115347$sY2.52036@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att. net...
> > > > Okay, I visually inspected the timing belt last evening and it
> appeared
> > to
> > > > be okay. It was in place and I could not wiggle it loose.
> > >
> > > Good.
> > >
> > > > This morning I went out to listen for the fuel pump. Yep, I heard it
> > too.
> > > I
> > > > removed the distributor cap to see if things were turning. Nope,
the
> > > rotor
> > > > isn't moving when the engine is cranked. I suppose that the
> distributor
> > > is
> > > > fried?
> > >
> > > Bad.
> > > Are you SURE you inspected the *timing* belt? (Sorry, but I have no
idea
> > of
> > > your mechanical knowledge.)
> > >
> > >
> > > > I guess that is why the starting sounds a little different than
> normal;
> > > > because it isn't "free-wheeling" but it doesn't sound normal either.
> > > >
> > > > Next step?
> > > >
> > > > Jay C.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Jay" <jay@jaycatmull.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:nriTa.119388$N7.16718@sccrnsc03...
> > > > > I just got back from towing my daughter's 91 Civic DX back to the
> > house.
> > > > It
> > > > > is 103 degrees in Salt Lake City today and the car quit in the
> middle
> > of
> > > a
> > > > > busy intersection.
> > > > >
> > > > > The engine turns over and cranks just fine but it does sound a
> little
> > > > > different while cranking. It sounds a little more like it is
free
> > > > wheeling
> > > > > (possibly) rather than turning under compression. I guess that
> could
> > be
> > > > > because of a couple of things....but not being an expert on this
> > > > particular
> > > > > model I could sure use some advice. Help! What to check first?
> > > > >
> > > > > Jay C.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Jay C.

07-23-2003 11:29 AM

Re: (quit in the heat) 91 Honda Civic

Mitchell A. Bogh; bems=137185

07-23-2003 01:50 PM

Re: (quit in the heat) 91 Honda Civic

"Jay C." wrote:

> I spent a little more time this morning investigating the car (in a cooler
> garage). I can now see that the timing belt is missing several teeth in one
> place as it loops over the top of the cam pulley.
>
> Yesterday my daughter said that she was coming to a slow stop at a traffic
> light and the next thing she knew, the car had stalled and she couldn't
> restart it.
>
> Perhaps the belt skipped position (hopefully not enough to do any damage).
> Now I think I can explain how the engine sounded when I tried to restart it.
> The timing sounded like it was off.
>
> I will be changing the belt starting today. How do I look for possible
> damage to valves and pistons without pulling the head?
>
> Jay C.
>
> "Jay" <jay@jaycatmull.com> wrote in message
> news:nriTa.119388$N7.16718@sccrnsc03...
> > I just got back from towing my daughter's 91 Civic DX back to the house.
> It
> > is 103 degrees in Salt Lake City today and the car quit in the middle of a
> > busy intersection.
> >
> > The engine turns over and cranks just fine but it does sound a little
> > different while cranking. It sounds a little more like it is free
> wheeling
> > (possibly) rather than turning under compression. I guess that could be
> > because of a couple of things....but not being an expert on this
> particular
> > model I could sure use some advice. Help! What to check first?
> >
> > Jay C.
> >
> >

install the new belt and necessary components then check the compression on
all cyclinders.

Mitchell A. Bogh; bems=137185

07-23-2003 01:50 PM

Re: (quit in the heat) 91 Honda Civic

Jay C.

07-23-2003 02:20 PM

Re: (quit in the heat) 91 Honda Civic

Thanks,

I am in the process of doing the deal. I have to decide if I want to do a
valve and head cleaning job while I am this far along. The car has nearly
1/4 million miles on it.

Jay

"Mitchell A. Bogh; bems=137185" <mab2728@eeppf001.ca.boeing.com> wrote in
message news:3F1ECADD.88D6EE12@eeppf001.ca.boeing.com...
> "Jay C." wrote:
>
> > I spent a little more time this morning investigating the car (in a
cooler
> > garage). I can now see that the timing belt is missing several teeth in
one
> > place as it loops over the top of the cam pulley.
> >
> > Yesterday my daughter said that she was coming to a slow stop at a
traffic
> > light and the next thing she knew, the car had stalled and she couldn't
> > restart it.
> >
> > Perhaps the belt skipped position (hopefully not enough to do any
damage).
> > Now I think I can explain how the engine sounded when I tried to restart
it.
> > The timing sounded like it was off.
> >
> > I will be changing the belt starting today. How do I look for possible
> > damage to valves and pistons without pulling the head?
> >
> > Jay C.
> >
> > "Jay" <jay@jaycatmull.com> wrote in message
> > news:nriTa.119388$N7.16718@sccrnsc03...
> > > I just got back from towing my daughter's 91 Civic DX back to the
house.
> > It
> > > is 103 degrees in Salt Lake City today and the car quit in the middle
of a
> > > busy intersection.
> > >
> > > The engine turns over and cranks just fine but it does sound a little
> > > different while cranking. It sounds a little more like it is free
> > wheeling
> > > (possibly) rather than turning under compression. I guess that could
be
> > > because of a couple of things....but not being an expert on this
> > particular
> > > model I could sure use some advice. Help! What to check first?
> > >
> > > Jay C.
> > >
> > >
>
> install the new belt and necessary components then check the compression
on
> all cyclinders.
>

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