SMS

SMS wrote:
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>> Ummmm... it's a rare American car with 50K or more miles where the
>> lifters DON'T clack. I can always identify a GM product with a 2.8
>> V-6 derivative by the unique blatty exhaust sound and clickety-clack
>> of the lifters.
>
> Almost like you could identify Chrysler products from the unique sound
> of the starter.

Speaking of which, I just saw a Dodge Dart Swinger today. I think it was
a 1972.

Nate Nagel

Vic Smith wrote:
> On Wed, 13 May 2009 19:22:25 -0400, Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net>
> wrote:
>
>> They ALL sound like that, or at least enough to determine a pattern.
>> They've sounded like that for decades... I've been hearing that sound
>> since Celebrities and Fieros were new. I know what a dry lifter sounds
>> like, and that's what they sound like.
>
> You have never heard a dry lifter or you wouldn't say that.
> You stepped right into that.
>
>> The 3400 in my last company car
>> sounded like that and it was not driven easily but not abused either,
>> and got "by-the-book" maintenance. I certainly wasn't racing it... (but
>> it sounded like I was wherever I drove it, because I think they
>> neglected to put a muffler on it from the factory. Seriously, I have
>> never driven a full-sized sedan with such intrusive engine/exhaust
>> noise. and I picked it up from the dealer with less than 20 miles on
>> it. Fortunately at least this seems to have been rectified in the newer
>> versions - much better in both the power and noise departments.)
>>
> I don't know anything about company-provided 3400's.
> Or any 3400.
> Except you managed to up the steering wheel on yours.
> That's all I know about it. Everything.
> And I have no problem keeping my mouth shut about what I don't
> know.
> Since I put a few hundred thousand miles on 2.8/3.1's in the last 18
> years, being as that's all I've driven, I do know about them.
> They are quiet and the engine noise has not been intrusive in the
> Celebrity, Corsica, and Lumina they've been in.
> I don't care about Fieros. I'll bet "engine noise intrusion" is
> significant when the damn thing is perched by your ear.
> The Celebrity was initially the quietest car I've ever been in save a
> Ford LTD. Noise intrusion increased with sound insulation age, but
> that was road noise.
> So when it comes to the 2.8/3.1 I can believe a guy constantly
> bitching about his company-provided 3400 while extolling his old
> Porsche, Studebaker and Dodge Dart, or my own good, experienced ears.
> You lose.
> Jesus, where is Shiden when you need him.
>
>> Which is another peeve. "by the book" is totally inadequate for many
>> cars, pretty much everyone qualifies as "severe service" but fleet
>> administrators refuse to recognize that and won't pay for anything
>> outside the "normal service" schedule. Kraut mfgrs. are at least honest
>> about service requirements and as a result get dinged for high
>> maintenance costs in comparison tests.
>>
>
> I guess that matters if you drive a company car you despise.
> I don't have that problem.
>
> --Vic

You're deaf, aren't you? Or just dumb?

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "***" to reply.
http://members.***.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel

Hachiroku ハチ�ク wrote:
> On Wed, 13 May 2009 18:47:10 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>>> A lot of the reliability stories for Japanese cars are not because
>>> they're more reliable under normal operating conditions with all
>>> scheduled service performed promptly, it's because they're able to
>>> better withstand owners that abuse them.
>> I dunno about that, for modern-ish cars I have found '80s VWs to be
>> remarkably durable,
>
> April 1 was a few weeks ago.
>
> My brand new '85 Jetta, a well designed, well engineered car was a DOG!
> It cured me of ever wanting to own a European car ever again!

Seems to be a love 'em or hate 'em car. My mom's '86 Golf just went to
the Big Parking Lot in the Sky a few weeks ago, a couple years after she
sold it to a neighbor who used it daily for a long commute. Don't know
what the eventual failure was, or if it was just one of those "isn't
worth enough to fix anymore" deals. But that car was pretty darn
reliable for many years of use as our family's primary vehicle. Wasn't
replaced in that role until about 2005-ish? I think?

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "***" to reply.
http://members.***.net/njnagel

Vic Smith

On Wed, 13 May 2009 20:33:38 -0400, Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net>
wrote:

>Vic Smith wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 May 2009 19:22:25 -0400, Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> They ALL sound like that, or at least enough to determine a pattern.
>>> They've sounded like that for decades... I've been hearing that sound
>>> since Celebrities and Fieros were new. I know what a dry lifter sounds
>>> like, and that's what they sound like.
>>
>> You have never heard a dry lifter or you wouldn't say that.
>> You stepped right into that.
>>
>>> The 3400 in my last company car
>>> sounded like that and it was not driven easily but not abused either,
>>> and got "by-the-book" maintenance. I certainly wasn't racing it... (but
>>> it sounded like I was wherever I drove it, because I think they
>>> neglected to put a muffler on it from the factory. Seriously, I have
>>> never driven a full-sized sedan with such intrusive engine/exhaust
>>> noise. and I picked it up from the dealer with less than 20 miles on
>>> it. Fortunately at least this seems to have been rectified in the newer
>>> versions - much better in both the power and noise departments.)
>>>
>> I don't know anything about company-provided 3400's.
>> Or any 3400.
>> Except you managed to up the steering wheel on yours.
>> That's all I know about it. Everything.
>> And I have no problem keeping my mouth shut about what I don't
>> know.
>> Since I put a few hundred thousand miles on 2.8/3.1's in the last 18
>> years, being as that's all I've driven, I do know about them.
>> They are quiet and the engine noise has not been intrusive in the
>> Celebrity, Corsica, and Lumina they've been in.
>> I don't care about Fieros. I'll bet "engine noise intrusion" is
>> significant when the damn thing is perched by your ear.
>> The Celebrity was initially the quietest car I've ever been in save a
>> Ford LTD. Noise intrusion increased with sound insulation age, but
>> that was road noise.
>> So when it comes to the 2.8/3.1 I can believe a guy constantly
>> bitching about his company-provided 3400 while extolling his old
>> Porsche, Studebaker and Dodge Dart, or my own good, experienced ears.
>> You lose.
>> Jesus, where is Shiden when you need him.
>>
>>> Which is another peeve. "by the book" is totally inadequate for many
>>> cars, pretty much everyone qualifies as "severe service" but fleet
>>> administrators refuse to recognize that and won't pay for anything
>>> outside the "normal service" schedule. Kraut mfgrs. are at least honest
>>> about service requirements and as a result get dinged for high
>>> maintenance costs in comparison tests.
>>>
>>
>> I guess that matters if you drive a company car you despise.
>> I don't have that problem.
>>
>> --Vic
>
>You're deaf, aren't you? Or just dumb?
>
There's another answer. You won't like it.
So I won't bother saying it.
Carry on.

--Vic

SMS

Nate Nagel wrote:

> Seems to be a love 'em or hate 'em car. My mom's '86 Golf just went to
> the Big Parking Lot in the Sky a few weeks ago, a couple years after she
> sold it to a neighbor who used it daily for a long commute. Don't know
> what the eventual failure was, or if it was just one of those "isn't
> worth enough to fix anymore" deals. But that car was pretty darn
> reliable for many years of use as our family's primary vehicle. Wasn't
> replaced in that role until about 2005-ish? I think?

I really enjoyed my three VWs in terms of Fahrvergnugen. The handling
was superb compared to the Honda and Toyotas I've had since. The little
know VW Fox, made in Brazil, was a hell of a deal, using the same great
non-interference 8 valve engine engine as the more expensive Golf and
Jetta. The Rabbit was breakdown hell for the first 80K miles or so, but
the Fox and Jetta never broke down. I though the interiors left
something to be desired in terms of quality of materials.

I've driven two sister-in-laws Hondas, one Civic, and one Accord, I find
the handling abysmal, as I do on my mom's Civic hybrid. After my CR-V,
I'm done with Hondas, what a dog.

Scott Dorsey

SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>I think they should have a gauge, a light, and an audible warning.
>Gauges provide more information, but few drivers are constantly looking
>at gauges.

Why not? Doing a once-over of all the gauges every minute or two is
a normal part of driving. Don't they still teach that in Driver's Ed?
Do they teach ANYTHING in Driver's Ed any more?
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Scott Dorsey

On Wed, 13 May 2009 19:22:25 -0400, Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net>
wrote:
>
>Which is another peeve. "by the book" is totally inadequate for many
>cars, pretty much everyone qualifies as "severe service" but fleet
>administrators refuse to recognize that and won't pay for anything
>outside the "normal service" schedule. Kraut mfgrs. are at least honest
>about service requirements and as a result get dinged for high
>maintenance costs in comparison tests.

Sadly no longer the case... the German manufacturers are now going to
vastly abbreviated maintenance schedules too. Hell, BMW is now claiming
that their transmissions have a lifetime fill of fluid....

Of course, it was when BMW started doing all scheduled maintenance in
the warranty period for free that they suddenly increased all the service
intervals...
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

SMS

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>> I think they should have a gauge, a light, and an audible warning.
>> Gauges provide more information, but few drivers are constantly looking
>> at gauges.
>
> Why not? Doing a once-over of all the gauges every minute or two is
> a normal part of driving. Don't they still teach that in Driver's Ed?
> Do they teach ANYTHING in Driver's Ed any more?

The schools around here dropped driver's ed long ago.

But the bottom line is that it would cost virtually nothing for the
automakers to trigger an alarm when one of the sensors (oil,
temperature, voltage went to a dangerous level.

Paying attention to the road, rather than constantly scanning the
gauges, would probably be a good idea as well.

Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B

On Wed, 13 May 2009 17:57:26 -0700, SMS wrote:

> Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>> Seems to be a love 'em or hate 'em car. My mom's '86 Golf just went to
>> the Big Parking Lot in the Sky a few weeks ago, a couple years after she
>> sold it to a neighbor who used it daily for a long commute. Don't know
>> what the eventual failure was, or if it was just one of those "isn't
>> worth enough to fix anymore" deals. But that car was pretty darn
>> reliable for many years of use as our family's primary vehicle. Wasn't
>> replaced in that role until about 2005-ish? I think?
>
> I really enjoyed my three VWs in terms of Fahrvergnugen. The handling
> was superb compared to the Honda and Toyotas I've had since. The little
> know VW Fox, made in Brazil, was a hell of a deal, using the same great
> non-interference 8 valve engine engine as the more expensive Golf and
> Jetta. The Rabbit was breakdown hell for the first 80K miles or so, but
> the Fox and Jetta never broke down. I though the interiors left
> something to be desired in terms of quality of materials.
>
> I've driven two sister-in-laws Hondas, one Civic, and one Accord, I find
> the handling abysmal, as I do on my mom's Civic hybrid. After my CR-V,
> I'm done with Hondas, what a dog.

We got tired of visiting the Service Manager at VW, and got an '87 Corolla
to replace it. Good gas mileage, comfortable, etc.

Wifey had a problem with the clutch in rush hour freeway traffic (leg
cramp) and said, I wnat an automatic...NOW!!! So, a leftover 88 Accord
with 16 miles on it took it's place.

The handling on the Corolla was ...um...OK. The honda? Nice ride,
comfortable, easy to drive, SLOW DOWN ON THE CORNERS!!!! A FWD car with
lift-throttle oversteer?!?!?!

Yeah, the Jetta certainly spoiled me when it came to handling.

But my Corolla GTS was at least as good...

Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B

On Wed, 13 May 2009 21:36:39 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>I think they should have a gauge, a light, and an audible warning.
>>Gauges provide more information, but few drivers are constantly looking
>>at gauges.
>
> Why not? Doing a once-over of all the gauges every minute or two is
> a normal part of driving. Don't they still teach that in Driver's Ed?
> Do they teach ANYTHING in Driver's Ed any more?
> --scott

I think it's how to dance to hip hop in the seat while texting, from what
I see...

Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B

On Wed, 13 May 2009 19:15:02 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:

> .. thought
> I'd press on to Pittsburgh and fix it there, where I had friends and
> family. Soon as we got past Toledo it started to rain...)

And you expected anything different...!

me

On Wed, 13 May 2009 16:36:19 -0500, Vic Smith
<thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> wrote:

>Again, you offer no specifics. Might as well be Joe Schmoe talking in
>the lottery ticket line. And there are well-known instances of
>sludging and head gasket failures of specific and common Toyota
>engines, most likely caused by lax fluid maintenance causing exactly
>the failures you're speaking of.

While lax maintenance certainly didn't help with the Toyota problems,
that was clearly not the basic issue. They argued long and hard that
it was only people who did not do the scheduled maintenance that had
sludge issues. When people with documented service records starting
showing that they had the same problems, Toyota finally gave in and
started fixing engines. AFAIR, they still insisted on docs to show
reasonable maintenance. While I'm sure that not changing your oil
causes problems, clearly Toyota had engine design problems.

SMS

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> On Wed, 13 May 2009 19:22:25 -0400, Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net>
> wrote:
>> Which is another peeve. "by the book" is totally inadequate for many
>> cars, pretty much everyone qualifies as "severe service" but fleet
>> administrators refuse to recognize that and won't pay for anything
>> outside the "normal service" schedule. Kraut mfgrs. are at least honest
>> about service requirements and as a result get dinged for high
>> maintenance costs in comparison tests.
>
> Sadly no longer the case... the German manufacturers are now going to
> vastly abbreviated maintenance schedules too. Hell, BMW is now claiming
> that their transmissions have a lifetime fill of fluid....

What makes sense, and what manufacturers are doing more and more, is to
have variable intervals based on the vehicle monitoring the type of
driving that is being done, and environmental factors.

What we've had for too long, is dealers and independent shops trying to
convince every single driver that they fall into the "severe service"
category, when in fact very few drivers actually qualify for the severe
service maintenance schedule. You still have the perpetuation of the
3000 mile oil change myth which causes a great deal of recreational oil
changing that has absolutely no effect on engine longevity. Why not do
1000 mile oil changes; if 3000 mile changes are "cheap insurance" then
1000 mile oil changes are even more cheap insurance. $10 for five quarts
of oil, $5 for an OEM filter and drain plug gasket, and you're able to
buy insurance for 1.5 cents per mile with 1000 mile oil changes.

You'd have Jiffy Lube out there telling naive customers, "oh, you do
stop and go driving, that's severe service" when in fact that was never
the definition of severe service. Look at your air filter at 15,000
miles, and it's likely very clean. If you were in a poor country, with a
lot of dusty roads, the service station would clean your air filter with
compressed air and put it back (I had this done on a rental car in
Thailand) not automatically put in a new filter. Analyze your oil at
5000 miles, without being misled by the color, and you'd find it's
easily good for another 2500-5000 miles, even for non-synthetics, unless
you have a high-performance turbo-charged engine.

SMS

me wrote:
> On Wed, 13 May 2009 16:36:19 -0500, Vic Smith
> <thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Again, you offer no specifics. Might as well be Joe Schmoe talking in
>> the lottery ticket line. And there are well-known instances of
>> sludging and head gasket failures of specific and common Toyota
>> engines, most likely caused by lax fluid maintenance causing exactly
>> the failures you're speaking of.
>
> While lax maintenance certainly didn't help with the Toyota problems,
> that was clearly not the basic issue.

This is true. Many people with lax maintenance didn't experience the
sludge problem, while many people that did proper maintenance did have it.

It could have been that the few people that actually qualified for
severe service but that followed the normal schedule were more likely to
have sludging, but Toyota never revealed any of this, they just changed
the maintenance schedules to be more conservative.

Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B

On Wed, 13 May 2009 19:15:25 -0700, SMS wrote:

>
> But the bottom line is that it would cost virtually nothing for the
> automakers to trigger an alarm when one of the sensors (oil,
> temperature, voltage went to a dangerous level.

My '85 Jetta had an idiot light and a buzzer.