Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

93 Civic DX sedan. It was a collision hard enough that the drawer
beneath the radio opened and sent the coin change I keep there flying.
As I got out, I thought I would find the Civic's rear would be partly
flattened. I was amazed that externally, the bumper only showed
scratches. The exhaust system is intact. Is the integrity of the foam
etc. in the bumper compromised, though, after a hard rear-ending?

The police made their report. I spoke with my insurance company last
night. While only once before (on another car 20 years ago) of several
rear-endings have I pursued a claim, this collision was so hard that I
am concerned.

Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

Elle wrote:
> 93 Civic DX sedan. It was a collision hard enough that the drawer
> beneath the radio opened and sent the coin change I keep there flying.
> As I got out, I thought I would find the Civic's rear would be partly
> flattened. I was amazed that externally, the bumper only showed
> scratches. The exhaust system is intact. Is the integrity of the foam
> etc. in the bumper compromised, though, after a hard rear-ending?
>
> The police made their report. I spoke with my insurance company last
> night. While only once before (on another car 20 years ago) of several
> rear-endings have I pursued a claim, this collision was so hard that I
> am concerned.

if there's no deformation, there's nothing to worry about.

if there is damage, of much more concern is whether you get to keep your
own car - if you have full insurance coverage, chances are, the insurer
will take your car, junk it, and give you a trivial settlement as
"market value". only insure old cars third party if you like them and
want to keep them.

Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

On Jul 7, 7:19 am, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> Elle wrote:
> > 93 Civic DX sedan. It was a collision hard enough that the drawer
> > beneath the radio opened and sent the coin change I keep there flying.
> > As I got out, I thought I would find the Civic's rear would be partly
> > flattened. I was amazed that externally, the bumper only showed
> > scratches. The exhaust system is intact. Is the integrity of the foam
> > etc. in the bumper compromised, though, after a hard rear-ending?
>
> > The police made their report. I spoke with my insurance company last
> > night. While only once before (on another car 20 years ago) of several
> > rear-endings have I pursued a claim, this collision was so hard that I
> > am concerned.
>
> if there's no deformation, there's nothing to worry about.
>
> if there is damage, of much more concern is whether you get to keep your
> own car - if you have full insurance coverage, chances are, the insurer
> will take your car, junk it, and give you a trivial settlement as
> "market value". only insure old cars third party if you like them and
> want to keep them.

To clarify and/or double check: There is no deformation of the bumper
that appears on an external inspection. I asked the policeman about
the styrofoam inside, and he said the external plastic would often
bounce back, showing no deformation, but meanwhile the styrofoam
inside could be permanently deformed.

Is this not so from your understanding of bumper construction?

Thanks for giving this some time.

Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

Elle <honda.lioness@gmail.com> wrote in news:c67588a7-23f9-4179-9872-
8d748fb83c8f@26g2000yqk.googlegroups.com:

> 93 Civic DX sedan. It was a collision hard enough that the drawer
> beneath the radio opened and sent the coin change I keep there flying.



Hope you were OK. Did you see it coming?



> As I got out, I thought I would find the Civic's rear would be partly
> flattened. I was amazed that externally, the bumper only showed
> scratches. The exhaust system is intact. Is the integrity of the foam
> etc. in the bumper compromised, though, after a hard rear-ending?



The foam is usually cracked and compressed. If you push on the bumper skin
with your hand, you'll probably find that there is air space that wasn't
there before. You may have a slightly increased chance of parking-lot
damage to the skin (creasing, paint cracking) than you did before, but
otherwise it should be OK.

You can try reaching inside from underneath with your hand (don't know if
you'll actually be able to touch the foam) and see if the foam is loose.



>
> The police made their report. I spoke with my insurance company last
> night. While only once before (on another car 20 years ago) of several
> rear-endings have I pursued a claim, this collision was so hard that I
> am concerned.



Is there obvious displacement of the bumper skin relative to the trunk,
taillights and fenders? Does the trunk still shut exactly as it did before?

The trunk latch is right next to the bumper, so it's a pretty good proxy
for evidence of structural deformation.



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

Elle <honda.lioness@gmail.com> wrote in news:00476f13-f562-43bc-a945-
9cd4d707f02e@c36g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:


>
> To clarify and/or double check: There is no deformation of the bumper
> that appears on an external inspection. I asked the policeman about
> the styrofoam inside, and he said the external plastic would often
> bounce back, showing no deformation, but meanwhile the styrofoam
> inside could be permanently deformed.
>
> Is this not so from your understanding of bumper construction?



The cop is correct. A junkyard crawl will confirm this.

The steel bumper rebar is bolted to the car. The foam is affixed to the
bumper skin which covers the rebar.

The foam is meant primarily to hold the bumper skin out to its finished
dimensions and shape. It also absorbs very minor "parking lot" type nudges.
Under heavier impacts, the foam tends to compress and break up into large
chunks. Those chunks often stay in place on account of the shape of the
skin, but they can become dislodged and even fall out.

Theoretically, the rebar comes into play above 2.5mph (5mph in Canada), and
theoretically protects the lights and other safety systems from damage
during those impacts. Although I've seen too many instances where the
bumper appears to have provided little more protection than a 1960s bumper,
while costing a lot more.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

On Jul 7, 8:08 am, Tegger wrote:
> Elle <honda.lion...@gmail.com> wrote
> > 93 Civic DX sedan. It was a collision hard enough that the drawer
> > beneath the radio opened and sent the coin change I keep there flying.
>
> Hope you were OK. Did you see it coming?

Yes thanks no injuries; just shook up. Mostly while waiting for the
police report I was just really unhappy that my beloved Honda may have
been blemished+ or more. I was and am really irritated with the person
who caused this and have half a mind to maximize her insurance
company's hit to compel her to think twice while she drives (with two
small kids in the car). But gosh I loathe insurance companies, so...

I was at a stoplight that had turned green yet the cars in front of me
were not moving. So I did not see it coming.

I will do all the checks you described soon. Thank you for the detail!

Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

Elle wrote:

> I was at a stoplight that had turned green yet the cars in front of me
> were not moving. So I did not see it coming.
>
> I will do all the checks you described soon. Thank you for the detail!
>

Glad you are all right.

When I got rear-ended, I was stopped a bit short behind another car
waiting to make a left turn. I watched in the rear view mirror as a
driver of a little econo-box stomped her brakes, making the rear end pop
up and swerve back and forth as it approaced my bumper. I had a split
second to turn my car left, but not into oncoming traffic, to avert the
oncoming blow. Luckily she turned out of my lane and a full-on smash to
just graze the rear right corner of my bumper cover. Deep scratches in
the plastic, but fixable. I should have made the insurance pay for a
whole new bumper, but instead, I just had her pay for paint. I just
repaired and repainted the whole bottom of the cover that needed
refreshing anyway. I didn't give much thought to the styrofoam underneath.

It is fairly easy to remove the rear bumper to see what's going on under
there.

dan

Update & Happy Ending Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

dan <d...@nospam.net> wrote:
snip but all read and found helpful
> It is fairly easy to remove the rear bumper to see what's going on under
> there.

I checked everything people listed here. The factory shop manual has a
single page for directions on how to get the bumper cover and
styrofoam absorber apart, and it is dead-on correct in what (easily
accessed) screws and bolts to remove. Everything looks good! I am
amazed that the styrofoam absorber is not cracked nor does it appear
deformed. At most, the bottom 3/8-inch of the styrofoam has small
indentations from where gravel from the road accumulated over the
years between the styrofoam and bumper cover. Then the gravel got
pushed into the styrofoam some, either from this rear-ending or lesser
ones over the years. The bumper beam looks fine.

I guess the styrofoam, the bumper beam, and the car moving some upon
collision took the force (in the vein of Tegger's post). Kudos to
Honda engineers or whoever sets standards for bumpers. A little more
touchup paint here and there; some Armor All, and I think my Civic
will be good to go.

Thanks again Jim, Tegger and Dan.

Re: Update & Happy Ending Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

Postscript: On reflecting on this accident and preventing it in the
future, and from reading Dan's post, I think one of the lessons here
is when there is a green light yet people ahead of one's car are not
moving, glance at the rear-view mirror throughout and see what people
in the back are doing. Maybe scoot the car up a little until people
start moving.

Re: Update & Happy Ending Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

Elle wrote:
> Postscript: On reflecting on this accident and preventing it in the
> future, and from reading Dan's post, I think one of the lessons here
> is when there is a green light yet people ahead of one's car are not
> moving, glance at the rear-view mirror throughout and see what people
> in the back are doing. Maybe scoot the car up a little until people
> start moving.

Yes moving forward when the vehicles in front of your vehicle haven't
moved would increase the odds of having your vehicle pushed into the
vehicle ahead of yours. Increasing the amount of damage to your vehicle
and involving other vehicles and people in the collision.

Re: Update & Happy Ending Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

Elle wrote:
> dan <d...@nospam.net> wrote:
> snip but all read and found helpful
>> It is fairly easy to remove the rear bumper to see what's going on under
>> there.
>
> I checked everything people listed here. The factory shop manual has a
> single page for directions on how to get the bumper cover and
> styrofoam absorber apart, and it is dead-on correct in what (easily
> accessed) screws and bolts to remove. Everything looks good! I am
> amazed that the styrofoam absorber is not cracked nor does it appear
> deformed. At most, the bottom 3/8-inch of the styrofoam has small
> indentations from where gravel from the road accumulated over the
> years between the styrofoam and bumper cover. Then the gravel got
> pushed into the styrofoam some, either from this rear-ending or lesser
> ones over the years. The bumper beam looks fine.
>
> I guess the styrofoam, the bumper beam, and the car moving some upon
> collision took the force (in the vein of Tegger's post). Kudos to
> Honda engineers or whoever sets standards for bumpers. A little more
> touchup paint here and there; some Armor All, and I think my Civic
> will be good to go.
>
> Thanks again Jim, Tegger and Dan.


That design was why I chose a Civic Si over a VW Golf in '86. (The
VW salesman cheerfully explained the Golf's lack of a 5MPH bumper:
"That's what the collision insurance is for!") And it survived at least
one significant impact unscathed.

Re: Update & Happy Ending Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

Elle <honda.lioness@gmail.com> wrote in news:e9dad137-9980-4a03-aeba-
5762cb9543e2@32g2000yqj.googlegroups.com:

> dan <d...@nospam.net> wrote:
> snip but all read and found helpful
>> It is fairly easy to remove the rear bumper to see what's going on under
>> there.
>
> I checked everything people listed here. The factory shop manual has a
> single page for directions on how to get the bumper cover and
> styrofoam absorber apart, and it is dead-on correct in what (easily
> accessed) screws and bolts to remove. Everything looks good! I am
> amazed that the styrofoam absorber is not cracked nor does it appear
> deformed. At most, the bottom 3/8-inch of the styrofoam has small
> indentations from where gravel from the road accumulated over the
> years between the styrofoam and bumper cover. Then the gravel got
> pushed into the styrofoam some, either from this rear-ending or lesser
> ones over the years. The bumper beam looks fine.
>
> I guess the styrofoam, the bumper beam, and the car moving some upon
> collision took the force (in the vein of Tegger's post). Kudos to
> Honda engineers or whoever sets standards for bumpers. A little more
> touchup paint here and there; some Armor All, and I think my Civic
> will be good to go.
>
> Thanks again Jim, Tegger and Dan.



Happy endings are always nice.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Update & Happy Ending Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

Leftie <No@Thanks.net> wrote in news:S5R4m.17226$Kn1.4567@newsfe09.iad:


>
>
> That design was why I chose a Civic Si over a VW Golf in '86. (The
> VW salesman cheerfully explained the Golf's lack of a 5MPH bumper:
> "That's what the collision insurance is for!") And it survived at
> least one significant impact unscathed.



Except that Elle's Civic has a 2.5mph bumper, whihc kind of undermines your
apparent point. Seems to have survived this incident just fine.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

Tegger wrote:
> Elle <honda.lioness@gmail.com> wrote in news:00476f13-f562-43bc-a945-
> 9cd4d707f02e@c36g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>> To clarify and/or double check: There is no deformation of the bumper
>> that appears on an external inspection. I asked the policeman about
>> the styrofoam inside, and he said the external plastic would often
>> bounce back, showing no deformation, but meanwhile the styrofoam
>> inside could be permanently deformed.
>>
>> Is this not so from your understanding of bumper construction?
>
>
>
> The cop is correct. A junkyard crawl will confirm this.
>
> The steel bumper rebar is bolted to the car. The foam is affixed to the
> bumper skin which covers the rebar.
>
> The foam is meant primarily to hold the bumper skin out to its finished
> dimensions and shape. It also absorbs very minor "parking lot" type nudges.
> Under heavier impacts, the foam tends to compress and break up into large
> chunks. Those chunks often stay in place on account of the shape of the
> skin, but they can become dislodged and even fall out.
>
> Theoretically, the rebar comes into play above 2.5mph (5mph in Canada), and
> theoretically protects the lights and other safety systems from damage
> during those impacts. Although I've seen too many instances where the
> bumper appears to have provided little more protection than a 1960s bumper,
> while costing a lot more.
>
>

as tegger says, the styrofoam is of no consequence in any real accident,
it's simply to hold cosmetic shape. the steel or gfrp bar underneath,
and its mounting brackets, are what matter. if they're bent, the bumper
always shows misalignment. afaik, honda build to 5mph rather than dick
about with this keep-detroit-employed 2.5mph rubbish - doesn't take much
of a nudge to open a full change tray. chances are, you're just fine.

Re: Update & Happy Ending Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

Tegger wrote:
> Leftie <No@Thanks.net> wrote in news:S5R4m.17226$Kn1.4567@newsfe09.iad:
>
>
>>
>> That design was why I chose a Civic Si over a VW Golf in '86. (The
>> VW salesman cheerfully explained the Golf's lack of a 5MPH bumper:
>> "That's what the collision insurance is for!") And it survived at
>> least one significant impact unscathed.
>
>
>
> Except that Elle's Civic has a 2.5mph bumper, whihc kind of undermines your
> apparent point. Seems to have survived this incident just fine.
>
>

The design is nearly the same. The Golf had, near as I can tell, a
"0.5MPh bumper."

Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
news:LuOdnZ8upbpNnMnXnZ2dnUVZ_uydnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> afaik, honda build to 5mph



I think you're right and I'm at least out-of-date in my information.

According to www.riv.ca, the government-licensed agency that administers
the importation of foreign vehicles into Canada, 1994-and-up Hondas are
admissible without bumper modifications. Since Elle's '93 is the same as
the '94, this means her bumpers are obviously 5mph ones.

Since cars that are 15 model-years old or older are importable into Canada
without any restrictions or modifications, they are no longer listed with
RIV, so I can't check to see if earlier models had 2.5mph bumpers.

However, it's still passing strange that Canada and the United States
remain, since 1973, the only countries in the entire world to have bumper
standards at all.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

Yours is good info, fellows.

I googled a bit on the purpose of the styrofoam "absorber" (as it is
called on parts sites). I thought this was interesting (from
http://www.car-stuff.com/toyotabumperabsorber.htm):
"... it is the Toyota bumper absorber that is usually made of
Styrofoam or plastic that is positioned in between the bumper cover
and the reinforcement to help strengthen the capacity of the bumper to
absorb the impact created during collisions. In most cases, bumpers
alone could not sustain the impact created during collisions, which is
why a bumper assembly should be completed for maximum protection. If
until now your bumper assembly is still lacking a Toyota bumper
absorber, better equip your auto with one now or you probably would
regret later on that you haven't. Bumpers are able to bounce the force
back to the object that has collided with your auto instead of that
force directly hitting your vehicle."

A lot of helmet designs use styrofoam, for one, so the above seems
reasonable.

Seems there is a fair amount of chatter and dispute about whether the
metal bumpers of say the 60s were better insofar as cutting down on
damage to the vehicle. Maybe so but ISTM manufacturers also sought to
lighten cars to achieve better gas mileage. Tradeoffs and all.

Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

Elle <honda.lioness@gmail.com> wrote in news:a337a8ab-374f-4a4f-bb12-
4bf9217e4d1c@y17g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:


>
> Seems there is a fair amount of chatter and dispute about whether the
> metal bumpers of say the 60s were better insofar as cutting down on
> damage to the vehicle. Maybe so but ISTM manufacturers also sought to
> lighten cars to achieve better gas mileage. Tradeoffs and all.
>
>


Around the mid-'60s, automakers started turning their bumpers into what
might be more accurately termed "decorative chrome bars". Insurance claims
for minor body damage began escalating about that time. Tired of the
claims, and alarmed by the sleek, form-fitting "bumpers" installed on cars
by the late '60s, insurance companies lobbied the federal government for
impact standards in order to limit minor damage claims.

From what I understand, the nascent safety zealots jumped in at the same
time, claiming that safety was being undermined by lots of people driving
around with broken headlights on account of the poor bumpers.

The result of their combined efforts was the 5-mph bumper impact
regulations, first imposed on the front bumpers of 1973 MY cars (except for
hardtops and convertibles, for some odd reason, which got one more year to
comply).

The first energy-absorbing bumpers were essentially simple "logs" mounted
on cylindrical struts that were filled with fluid of some kind, and were
designed to collapse under impact. These assemblies were bulky and heavy
(and usually ugly).

As the CAFE regulations of 1975 got tighter and tighter over the years,
automakers sought to make the original steel/aluminum battering-ram bumpers
lighter and lighter. This is why we now have hybrid flexible/rigid bumpers:
Light foam simply replaced the old heavy cylindrical struts.
Your rebar -- the original "bumper" prior to 1973 -- is now rigidly mounted
to the body shell, just like a 1972 model, but is now buried under a $400
plastic skin ($800 including paint).

It's my understanding that insurance companies never really did get their
hoped-for claims reductions: Better bumpers meant even /less/ careful
drivers. Minor impact damage went down, but just about every other kind of
collision damage went way up. A mixed blessing, to say the least.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Update & Happy Ending Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

"Tegger" <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in message
news:Xns9C41D76759105tegger@208.90.168.18...
> Elle <honda.lioness@gmail.com> wrote in news:e9dad137-9980-4a03-aeba-
> 5762cb9543e2@32g2000yqj.googlegroups.com:
>
>> dan <d...@nospam.net> wrote:
>> snip but all read and found helpful
>>> It is fairly easy to remove the rear bumper to see what's going on under
>>> there.
>>
>> I checked everything people listed here. The factory shop manual has a
>> single page for directions on how to get the bumper cover and
>> styrofoam absorber apart, and it is dead-on correct in what (easily
>> accessed) screws and bolts to remove. Everything looks good! I am
>> amazed that the styrofoam absorber is not cracked nor does it appear
>> deformed. At most, the bottom 3/8-inch of the styrofoam has small
>> indentations from where gravel from the road accumulated over the
>> years between the styrofoam and bumper cover. Then the gravel got
>> pushed into the styrofoam some, either from this rear-ending or lesser
>> ones over the years. The bumper beam looks fine.
>>
>> I guess the styrofoam, the bumper beam, and the car moving some upon
>> collision took the force (in the vein of Tegger's post). Kudos to
>> Honda engineers or whoever sets standards for bumpers. A little more
>> touchup paint here and there; some Armor All, and I think my Civic
>> will be good to go.
>>
>> Thanks again Jim, Tegger and Dan.
>
>
>
> Happy endings are always nice.
>
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Yeah, you really have to check them over after a rear-ender. My wife got it
in her 92 Seville. The bumper was shoved forward on one side and some other
damage. I went to the Caddy dealer to pick it up after it was supposededly
fixed. The bumper was replaced and looked fine. I got down on the ground and
looked underneath. There was a small shock absorber on each side that went
to the bumper. The one on the impact side had been damaged and compressed.
Did they replace it? Hell no, just shoved a bunch of shims behind it and
rebolted it. I was pissed, raised hell and got it fixed right. Talk about
shade tree mechanics, at a Caddy Dealership, no less. Really tightened
my Van Allen belt !

Re: Update & Happy Ending Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

On Jul 7, 3:19 pm, Brian Smith <Hali...@NovaScotia.Canada> wrote:
> Elle wrote:
> > Postscript: On reflecting on this accident and preventing it in the
> > future, and from reading Dan's post, I think one of the lessons here
> > is when there is a green light yet people ahead of one's car are not
> > moving, glance at the rear-view mirror throughout and see what people
> > in the back are doing. Maybe scoot the car up a little until people
> > start moving.
>
> Yes moving forward when the vehicles in front of your vehicle haven't
> moved would increase the odds of having your vehicle pushed into the
> vehicle ahead of yours. Increasing the amount of damage to your vehicle
> and involving other vehicles and people in the collision.

good rule of thumb when stopped, always leave enough space in front of
your car that you can see at least the rear bumper of the car in front
of you, so that a rear impact won't totally squish your car. you might
even be able to duck sideways out of the way. practice in your
driveway at such things helps. stuff you need to know when you drive a
civic in a world of suvs.

Re: Update & Happy Ending Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

On Jul 8, 7:38 pm, "Forrest" <runforre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Tegger" <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
>
> news:Xns9C41D76759105tegger@208.90.168.18...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Elle <honda.lion...@gmail.com> wrote in news:e9dad137-9980-4a03-aeba-
> > 5762cb954...@32g2000yqj.googlegroups.com:
>
> >> dan <d...@nospam.net> wrote:
> >> snip but all read and found helpful
> >>> It is fairly easy to remove the rear bumper to see what's going on under
> >>> there.
>
> >> I checked everything people listed here. The factory shop manual has a
> >> single page for directions on how to get the bumper cover and
> >> styrofoam absorber apart, and it is dead-on correct in what (easily
> >> accessed) screws and bolts to remove. Everything looks good! I am
> >> amazed that the styrofoam absorber is not cracked nor does it appear
> >> deformed. At most, the bottom 3/8-inch of the styrofoam has small
> >> indentations from where gravel from the road accumulated over the
> >> years between the styrofoam and bumper cover. Then the gravel got
> >> pushed into the styrofoam some, either from this rear-ending or lesser
> >> ones over the years. The bumper beam looks fine.
>
> >> I guess the styrofoam, the bumper beam, and the car moving some upon
> >> collision took the force (in the vein of Tegger's post). Kudos to
> >> Honda engineers or whoever sets standards for bumpers. A little more
> >> touchup paint here and there; some Armor All, and I think my Civic
> >> will be good to go.
>
> >> Thanks again Jim, Tegger and Dan.
>
> > Happy endings are always nice.
>
> > --
> > Tegger
>
> > The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> >www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>
> Yeah, you really have to check them over after a rear-ender. My wife got it
> in her 92 Seville. The bumper was shoved forward on one side and some other
> damage. I went to the Caddy dealer to pick it up after it was supposededly
> fixed. The bumper was replaced and looked fine. I got down on the ground and
> looked underneath. There was a small shock absorber on each side that went
> to the bumper. The one on the impact side had been damaged and compressed..
> Did they replace it? Hell no, just shoved a bunch of shims behind it and
> rebolted it. I was pissed, raised hell and got it fixed right. Talk about
> shade tree mechanics, at a Caddy Dealership, no less. Really tightened
> my Van Allen belt !- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

years ago, took my civic in to a local body shop in a big bucks
neighborhood which advertised itself as specializing in mercedes, bmw,
honda, acura, figured they would do a decent job on the front end i
stupidly mangled. I impressed upon him i wanted it done right, even if
it cost, not just patched together to look good for quick sale like
some folks do. last winter, i skid into a dinky little yard sign just
stuck into the dirt, no concrete or anything. it keels right over, of
course, minimal impact, but the front bumper is split apart. Mr.
classy body shop had neglected to replace the styrofoam under the
bumper cover, and without the support the cover had stretched/ripped
under the relatively gentle stress. i'm convinced it would have
survived otherwise. bottom line, the guy's little cheat saved him
probably $15 and cost me $200.

Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

Elle wrote:
> 93 Civic DX sedan. It was a collision hard enough that the drawer
> beneath the radio opened and sent the coin change I keep there flying.
> As I got out, I thought I would find the Civic's rear would be partly
> flattened. I was amazed that externally, the bumper only showed
> scratches. The exhaust system is intact. Is the integrity of the foam
> etc. in the bumper compromised, though, after a hard rear-ending?
>
> The police made their report. I spoke with my insurance company last
> night. While only once before (on another car 20 years ago) of several
> rear-endings have I pursued a claim, this collision was so hard that I
> am concerned.


If you are unhurt, just go for the cosmetic repair.

Of course if it were me, I'd be screamin' neck, back and other maladies
and interviewing sleazy lawyers!

JT

Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in
news:Lld5m.105564$d36.69201@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

>
>
> Elle wrote:
>> 93 Civic DX sedan. It was a collision hard enough that the drawer
>> beneath the radio opened and sent the coin change I keep there flying.
>> As I got out, I thought I would find the Civic's rear would be partly
>> flattened. I was amazed that externally, the bumper only showed
>> scratches. The exhaust system is intact. Is the integrity of the foam
>> etc. in the bumper compromised, though, after a hard rear-ending?
>>
>> The police made their report. I spoke with my insurance company last
>> night. While only once before (on another car 20 years ago) of several
>> rear-endings have I pursued a claim, this collision was so hard that I
>> am concerned.
>
>
> If you are unhurt, just go for the cosmetic repair.
>
> Of course if it were me, I'd be screamin' neck, back and other maladies
> and interviewing sleazy lawyers!
>
> JT
>

and running the risk of being caught at fraud.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Update & Happy Ending Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

Forrest wrote:
> "Tegger" <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in message
> news:Xns9C41D76759105tegger@208.90.168.18...
>> Elle <honda.lioness@gmail.com> wrote in news:e9dad137-9980-4a03-aeba-
>> 5762cb9543e2@32g2000yqj.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> dan <d...@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> snip but all read and found helpful
>>>> It is fairly easy to remove the rear bumper to see what's going on under
>>>> there.
>>> I checked everything people listed here. The factory shop manual has a
>>> single page for directions on how to get the bumper cover and
>>> styrofoam absorber apart, and it is dead-on correct in what (easily
>>> accessed) screws and bolts to remove. Everything looks good! I am
>>> amazed that the styrofoam absorber is not cracked nor does it appear
>>> deformed. At most, the bottom 3/8-inch of the styrofoam has small
>>> indentations from where gravel from the road accumulated over the
>>> years between the styrofoam and bumper cover. Then the gravel got
>>> pushed into the styrofoam some, either from this rear-ending or lesser
>>> ones over the years. The bumper beam looks fine.
>>>
>>> I guess the styrofoam, the bumper beam, and the car moving some upon
>>> collision took the force (in the vein of Tegger's post). Kudos to
>>> Honda engineers or whoever sets standards for bumpers. A little more
>>> touchup paint here and there; some Armor All, and I think my Civic
>>> will be good to go.
>>>
>>> Thanks again Jim, Tegger and Dan.
>>
>>
>> Happy endings are always nice.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Tegger
>>
>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>
> Yeah, you really have to check them over after a rear-ender. My wife got it
> in her 92 Seville. The bumper was shoved forward on one side and some other
> damage. I went to the Caddy dealer to pick it up after it was supposededly
> fixed. The bumper was replaced and looked fine. I got down on the ground and
> looked underneath. There was a small shock absorber on each side that went
> to the bumper. The one on the impact side had been damaged and compressed.
> Did they replace it? Hell no, just shoved a bunch of shims behind it and
> rebolted it. I was pissed, raised hell and got it fixed right. Talk about
> shade tree mechanics, at a Caddy Dealership, no less. Really tightened
> my Van Allen belt !
>
>


I got some damage in a 10 or 15mph rear-ending at a yield sign. The
insurance company called a Honda dealership for a price for a
"replacement bumper" and paid me the $600 they quoted. When I went to
pick it up it was just the skin, unpainted, without the collapsible
supports. I ended up buying the supports and just repainting the
scratches on the original "bumper." We need to get some redefinitions of
what constitutes a "bumper."

Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

On 2009-07-09, Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:
>
>
> Elle wrote:
>> 93 Civic DX sedan. It was a collision hard enough that the drawer
>> beneath the radio opened and sent the coin change I keep there flying.
>> As I got out, I thought I would find the Civic's rear would be partly
>> flattened. I was amazed that externally, the bumper only showed
>> scratches. The exhaust system is intact. Is the integrity of the foam
>> etc. in the bumper compromised, though, after a hard rear-ending?
>>
>> The police made their report. I spoke with my insurance company last
>> night. While only once before (on another car 20 years ago) of several
>> rear-endings have I pursued a claim, this collision was so hard that I
>> am concerned.
>
>
> If you are unhurt, just go for the cosmetic repair.
>
> Of course if it were me, I'd be screamin' neck, back and other maladies
> and interviewing sleazy lawyers!

Why's that?

--
Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
joe at hits - buffalo dot com
"Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
time..." - Danny, American History X

Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

"Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in message
news:Lld5m.105564$d36.69201@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
>
> Elle wrote:
>> 93 Civic DX sedan. It was a collision hard enough that the drawer
>> beneath the radio opened and sent the coin change I keep there flying.
>> As I got out, I thought I would find the Civic's rear would be partly
>> flattened. I was amazed that externally, the bumper only showed
>> scratches. The exhaust system is intact. Is the integrity of the foam
>> etc. in the bumper compromised, though, after a hard rear-ending?
>>
>> The police made their report. I spoke with my insurance company last
>> night. While only once before (on another car 20 years ago) of several
>> rear-endings have I pursued a claim, this collision was so hard that I
>> am concerned.
>
>
> If you are unhurt, just go for the cosmetic repair.
>
> Of course if it were me, I'd be screamin' neck, back and other maladies
> and interviewing sleazy lawyers!
>
> JT

Not to mention, the sudden onset of impotence and insomnia !

Re: Update & Happy Ending Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

z wrote:
>
> good rule of thumb when stopped, always leave enough space in front of
> your car that you can see at least the rear bumper of the car in front
> of you, so that a rear impact won't totally squish your car. you might
> even be able to duck sideways out of the way. practice in your
> driveway at such things helps. stuff you need to know when you drive a
> civic in a world of suvs.

An even thing to do is to stay back so that you are able to see the
bottom of the tires of the vehicle in front of yours. This allows you
enough room to cut your wheels and to drive around that vehicle should
the need arise, whether due to another vehicle approaching yours from
the rear faster than it can stop or if the vehicle in front stalls and
doesn't move when the light changes. This works for any size of vehicle
by the way from a Smart Car or a tractor trailer truck.

Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

Joe wrote:
>
> Why's that?

It's the American way. You must recognize their battle cry, SUE, SUE,
SUE! :^)

Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

On 2009-07-09, Brian Smith <Halifax@NovaScotia.Canada> wrote:
> Joe wrote:
>>
>> Why's that?
>
> It's the American way. You must recognize their battle cry, SUE, SUE,
> SUE! :^)
>

I recognize the battle cry, just never understood the selfish
reasoning. People never fail to prove to me that my expectations are
too high. And they're not very high at all...

--
Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
joe at hits - buffalo dot com
"Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
time..." - Danny, American History X

Re: Update & Happy Ending Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

On 7/9/09 5:44 AM, in article h34hmf$tr6$20@news.datemas.de, "Brian Smith"
<Halifax@NovaScotia.Canada> wrote:

> z wrote:
>>
>> good rule of thumb when stopped, always leave enough space in front of
>> your car that you can see at least the rear bumper of the car in front
>> of you, so that a rear impact won't totally squish your car. you might
>> even be able to duck sideways out of the way. practice in your
>> driveway at such things helps. stuff you need to know when you drive a
>> civic in a world of suvs.
>
> An even thing to do is to stay back so that you are able to see the
> bottom of the tires of the vehicle in front of yours. This allows you
> enough room to cut your wheels and to drive around that vehicle should
> the need arise, whether due to another vehicle approaching yours from
> the rear faster than it can stop or if the vehicle in front stalls and
> doesn't move when the light changes. This works for any size of vehicle
> by the way from a Smart Car or a tractor trailer truck.

That all sounds great, totally reasonable & in fact, driver's ed in 1965
taught the bumper rule. If you try it around here (Dallas), one of several
things will happen every time: another car will try to pull into the gap
between you and the car in front if that gap appears big enough; the cars
behind you will start honking because you are blocking access to the turn
lane by being stopped so far back; the driver behind you will stop, get out
of the car and come up and start yelling (like they do in D.C.). I have
found the half-car-length rule to be more practical & just as safe.

Re: Update & Happy Ending Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

"E. Meyer" <epmeyer50@msn.com> wrote in
news:C67B4D70.C908%epmeyer50@msn.com:

>
>
>
> On 7/9/09 5:44 AM, in article h34hmf$tr6$20@news.datemas.de, "Brian
> Smith"
><Halifax@NovaScotia.Canada> wrote:
>
>> z wrote:
>>>
>>> good rule of thumb when stopped, always leave enough space in front
>>> of your car that you can see at least the rear bumper of the car in
>>> front of you, so that a rear impact won't totally squish your car.
>>> you might even be able to duck sideways out of the way. practice in
>>> your driveway at such things helps. stuff you need to know when you
>>> drive a civic in a world of suvs.
>>
>> An even thing to do is to stay back so that you are able to see the
>> bottom of the tires of the vehicle in front of yours. This allows you
>> enough room to cut your wheels and to drive around that vehicle
>> should the need arise, whether due to another vehicle approaching
>> yours from the rear faster than it can stop or if the vehicle in
>> front stalls and doesn't move when the light changes. This works for
>> any size of vehicle by the way from a Smart Car or a tractor trailer
>> truck.
>
> That all sounds great, totally reasonable & in fact, driver's ed in
> 1965 taught the bumper rule. If you try it around here (Dallas), one
> of several things will happen every time: another car will try to
> pull into the gap between you and the car in front if that gap appears
> big enough; the cars behind you will start honking because you are
> blocking access to the turn lane by being stopped so far back; the
> driver behind you will stop, get out of the car and come up and start
> yelling (like they do in D.C.). I have found the half-car-length rule
> to be more practical & just as safe.
>
>

some folks just can't judge distance.
The "bottom of the tires" guideline works good enough,and is not too far
back,and doesn't leave a gap sufficient for anyone to sneak into.

(and if they appear to be trying,THEN you edge up a tad,block them.you
should be paying attention anyways.)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

Joe wrote:
>
> I recognize the battle cry, just never understood the selfish
> reasoning. People never fail to prove to me that my expectations are
> too high. And they're not very high at all...

I don't understand the mentality of it either, Joe. The world is driven
by greed and greedy people seem to be driven to the extreme rather than
by reason.

Re: Update & Happy Ending Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

E. Meyer wrote:
>
> That all sounds great, totally reasonable & in fact, driver's ed in 1965
> taught the bumper rule. If you try it around here (Dallas), one of several
> things will happen every time: another car will try to pull into the gap
> between you and the car in front if that gap appears big enough; the cars
> behind you will start honking because you are blocking access to the turn
> lane by being stopped so far back; the driver behind you will stop, get out
> of the car and come up and start yelling (like they do in D.C.). I have
> found the half-car-length rule to be more practical & just as safe.

The space between vehicles is not great enough for any idiot to think
about squeezing into, there just isn't room.

As far as blowing horns and people walking up to "chat" that's fine and
easy to ignore.

Re: Update & Happy Ending Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

On 7/9/09 8:22 AM, in article h34qtn$os8$7@news.datemas.de, "Brian Smith"
<Halifax@NovaScotia.Canada> wrote:

> E. Meyer wrote:
>>
>> That all sounds great, totally reasonable & in fact, driver's ed in 1965
>> taught the bumper rule. If you try it around here (Dallas), one of several
>> things will happen every time: another car will try to pull into the gap
>> between you and the car in front if that gap appears big enough; the cars
>> behind you will start honking because you are blocking access to the turn
>> lane by being stopped so far back; the driver behind you will stop, get out
>> of the car and come up and start yelling (like they do in D.C.). I have
>> found the half-car-length rule to be more practical & just as safe.
>
> The space between vehicles is not great enough for any idiot to think
> about squeezing into, there just isn't room.

Depends what you are driving - If its anything with a long hood (& I'll
concede that leaves out most Hondas) and/or the thing in front has a long
trunk (like an LTD), bottom of the tires is about one car length & I have
seen it happen enough times to know its true.


>
> As far as blowing horns and people walking up to "chat" that's fine and
> easy to ignore.
>

Usually its the guy who just missed the once-every-5-minutes turn light
because some jerk wouldn't pull up 5 feet to let him into it. Easy to
ignore, but still...

Re: Update & Happy Ending Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

E. Meyer wrote:
>
> Depends what you are driving - If its anything with a long hood (& I'll
> concede that leaves out most Hondas) and/or the thing in front has a long
> trunk (like an LTD), bottom of the tires is about one car length & I have
> seen it happen enough times to know its true.

Maybe the idiots where you are are more stupid than where I live. I
have driven a lot of miles and there haven't been a large number of
people that will try to squeeze in between my vehicles and the one in
front. But that's truly not relevant to the practice I mentioned.

> Usually its the guy who just missed the once-every-5-minutes turn light
> because some jerk wouldn't pull up 5 feet to let him into it. Easy to
> ignore, but still...

That is not my concern. I am not going to make room for someone behind
me and then have the fellow behind him bump me in to the vehicle in
front of me. It's only time and it's more affordable than repairs,
especially unnecessary repairs.

Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

In article <000ee053$0$14525$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
Joe <joe@spam.hits-spam-buffalo.com> wrote:

> > It's the American way. You must recognize their battle cry, SUE, SUE,
> > SUE! :^)
> >
>
> I recognize the battle cry, just never understood the selfish
> reasoning. People never fail to prove to me that my expectations are
> too high. And they're not very high at all...

The discussion isn't about people. The discussion is about
corporations, specifically insurance companies, and their way--"deny,
deny, deny". Where do you think the "back pain" came from?

Re: Update & Happy Ending Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

On 7/9/09 8:48 AM, in article h34sfm$os8$10@news.datemas.de, "Brian Smith"
<Halifax@NovaScotia.Canada> wrote:

> E. Meyer wrote:
>>
>> Depends what you are driving - If its anything with a long hood (& I'll
>> concede that leaves out most Hondas) and/or the thing in front has a long
>> trunk (like an LTD), bottom of the tires is about one car length & I have
>> seen it happen enough times to know its true.
>
> Maybe the idiots where you are are more stupid than where I live.

What can I say. Dallas was just rated the number two place for road-rage in
the US (just behind New York). You have to go with the hand you're dealt.


> have driven a lot of miles and there haven't been a large number of
> people that will try to squeeze in between my vehicles and the one in
> front. But that's truly not relevant to the practice I mentioned.
>
>> Usually its the guy who just missed the once-every-5-minutes turn light
>> because some jerk wouldn't pull up 5 feet to let him into it. Easy to
>> ignore, but still...
>
> That is not my concern. I am not going to make room for someone behind
> me and then have the fellow behind him bump me in to the vehicle in
> front of me. It's only time and it's more affordable than repairs,
> especially unnecessary repairs.
>

Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>
> The discussion isn't about people. The discussion is about
> corporations, specifically insurance companies, and their way--"deny,
> deny, deny". Where do you think the "back pain" came from?

You're incorrect. The original discussion was about the damage to
Elle's vehicle. This off shoot of the topic came about when this was
posted the following;

Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in
news:Lld5m.105564$d36.69201@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

>
> If you are unhurt, just go for the cosmetic repair.
>
> Of course if it were me, I'd be screamin' neck, back and other
> maladies and interviewing sleazy lawyers!
>
> > JT

That is where the people came into the discussion. When it was made
obvious that there are people with extremely low ethics and standards
out there, that only think about what they can get out of others
(whether businesses or other people) for nothing.

Re: Update & Happy Ending Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

E. Meyer wrote:
>
> What can I say. Dallas was just rated the number two place for road-rage in
> the US (just behind New York). You have to go with the hand you're dealt.

Well, I have to say that is too bad. I guess they'll just have to try
harder for the next time period until they are number one. :^)

Re: Rear-Ended; New Bumper?
 

Jim Yanik wrote:
> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in
> news:Lld5m.105564$d36.69201@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
>
>>
>>Elle wrote:
>>
>>>93 Civic DX sedan. It was a collision hard enough that the drawer
>>>beneath the radio opened and sent the coin change I keep there flying.
>>>As I got out, I thought I would find the Civic's rear would be partly
>>>flattened. I was amazed that externally, the bumper only showed
>>>scratches. The exhaust system is intact. Is the integrity of the foam
>>>etc. in the bumper compromised, though, after a hard rear-ending?
>>>
>>>The police made their report. I spoke with my insurance company last
>>>night. While only once before (on another car 20 years ago) of several
>>>rear-endings have I pursued a claim, this collision was so hard that I
>>>am concerned.
>>
>>
>>If you are unhurt, just go for the cosmetic repair.
>>
>>Of course if it were me, I'd be screamin' neck, back and other maladies
>>and interviewing sleazy lawyers!
>>
>>JT
>>
>
>
> and running the risk of being caught at fraud.



You're probably right... Sleazy lawyers get away with murder but poor
ol' me gets life in the slammer for trying to squeeze a few bux for my
"pain 'n suffering!"

Oh well...

JT