Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

Abeness wrote:
> SoCalMike wrote:
>
>> might some of the newer stuff actually be *too* good? as in too
>> slippery, etc?
>
>
> How could it be too slippery?

for the synchros to work effectively.

> Once the gears are engaged, they ain't
> gonna slip away from each other. Seems like it could only be an
> improvement.

Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

"Randolph" <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in message
news:41AE8AFA.7F20F7BC@junkmail.com...
>
> SoCalMike wrote:
>
>> > The manual you're quoting is NINE years old . . .The petroleum industry
>> > (and Honda) have come up with a lot of better ideas since then. They
>> > wouldn't be recommending anything that would be a step backwards, I'm
>> > sure.:-)
>
>> might some of the newer stuff actually be *too* good? as in too
>> slippery, etc?
>
> Using a synthetic motor oil in the transmission is a problem because it
> is too slippery. The synthetic transmission fluids are formulated to
> give appropriate friction for synchronizers etc.

Yep. This is a well known problem. Drivers are dismayed to find their
synchros suddenly very balky. Good thing a simple change of lubricant makes
it right again.

Mike

Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

"Randolph" <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in message
news:41AE8AFA.7F20F7BC@junkmail.com...
>
> SoCalMike wrote:
>
>> > The manual you're quoting is NINE years old . . .The petroleum industry
>> > (and Honda) have come up with a lot of better ideas since then. They
>> > wouldn't be recommending anything that would be a step backwards, I'm
>> > sure.:-)
>
>> might some of the newer stuff actually be *too* good? as in too
>> slippery, etc?
>
> Using a synthetic motor oil in the transmission is a problem because it
> is too slippery. The synthetic transmission fluids are formulated to
> give appropriate friction for synchronizers etc.

Yep. This is a well known problem. Drivers are dismayed to find their
synchros suddenly very balky. Good thing a simple change of lubricant makes
it right again.

Mike

Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

"Abeness" <news@nada.x> wrote in message
news:oNudnV2LweXNBzPcRVn-pg@rcn.net...
> SoCalMike wrote:
>> might some of the newer stuff actually be *too* good? as in too slippery,
>> etc?
>
> How could it be too slippery? Once the gears are engaged, they ain't gonna
> slip away from each other. Seems like it could only be an improvement.

Technically, the lubricant has too great a "film strength." Synchros are
dependent on controlled friction to operate and over-slippery lubricants
prevent the friction from happening. The effect is the same as completely
worn out synchros.

Mike

Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

"Abeness" <news@nada.x> wrote in message
news:oNudnV2LweXNBzPcRVn-pg@rcn.net...
> SoCalMike wrote:
>> might some of the newer stuff actually be *too* good? as in too slippery,
>> etc?
>
> How could it be too slippery? Once the gears are engaged, they ain't gonna
> slip away from each other. Seems like it could only be an improvement.

Technically, the lubricant has too great a "film strength." Synchros are
dependent on controlled friction to operate and over-slippery lubricants
prevent the friction from happening. The effect is the same as completely
worn out synchros.

Mike

Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> Technically, the lubricant has too great a "film strength." Synchros are
> dependent on controlled friction to operate and over-slippery lubricants
> prevent the friction from happening. The effect is the same as completely
> worn out synchros.

Ahh, thanks for the fuller explanation. I had no idea how the synchros
worked.

Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> Technically, the lubricant has too great a "film strength." Synchros are
> dependent on controlled friction to operate and over-slippery lubricants
> prevent the friction from happening. The effect is the same as completely
> worn out synchros.

Ahh, thanks for the fuller explanation. I had no idea how the synchros
worked.

Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

Abeness <news@nada.x> floridly penned in news:QMCdnUYvdKjQ9zPcRVn-
uQ@rcn.net:

> motsco_ _ wrote:
>> The manual you're quoting is NINE years old . . .The petroleum industry
>> (and Honda) have come up with a lot of better ideas since then. They
>> wouldn't be recommending anything that would be a step backwards, I'm
>> sure.:-)
>
> True enough. I suppose the question is, however, whether what the manual
> recommends is sufficient. Obviously it was, at the time.
>


The zinc content of motor oils has been drastically reduced since 1994 to
help prevent damage to emission control devices. That zinc (along with
other additives) is what helps protect the gears, synchros, etc from undue
friction.

Honda MTL (Manual Transmission Lubricant) has all the additives your
transmission needs, since there is no concern for emission control devices.

It's all I use. And I change it every year, with the mileage I put on.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

Abeness <news@nada.x> floridly penned in news:QMCdnUYvdKjQ9zPcRVn-
uQ@rcn.net:

> motsco_ _ wrote:
>> The manual you're quoting is NINE years old . . .The petroleum industry
>> (and Honda) have come up with a lot of better ideas since then. They
>> wouldn't be recommending anything that would be a step backwards, I'm
>> sure.:-)
>
> True enough. I suppose the question is, however, whether what the manual
> recommends is sufficient. Obviously it was, at the time.
>


The zinc content of motor oils has been drastically reduced since 1994 to
help prevent damage to emission control devices. That zinc (along with
other additives) is what helps protect the gears, synchros, etc from undue
friction.

Honda MTL (Manual Transmission Lubricant) has all the additives your
transmission needs, since there is no concern for emission control devices.

It's all I use. And I change it every year, with the mileage I put on.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

Abeness <news@nada.x> floridly penned in
news:v6ednYTCj6sJ0zLcRVn-pA@rcn.net:

> Michael Pardee wrote:
>> Technically, the lubricant has too great a "film strength." Synchros
>> are dependent on controlled friction to operate and over-slippery
>> lubricants prevent the friction from happening. The effect is the
>> same as completely worn out synchros.
>
> Ahh, thanks for the fuller explanation. I had no idea how the synchros
> worked.
>


Then you haven't been reading my posts on synchronizer operation.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

Abeness <news@nada.x> floridly penned in
news:v6ednYTCj6sJ0zLcRVn-pA@rcn.net:

> Michael Pardee wrote:
>> Technically, the lubricant has too great a "film strength." Synchros
>> are dependent on controlled friction to operate and over-slippery
>> lubricants prevent the friction from happening. The effect is the
>> same as completely worn out synchros.
>
> Ahh, thanks for the fuller explanation. I had no idea how the synchros
> worked.
>


Then you haven't been reading my posts on synchronizer operation.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

TeGGer® wrote:
> It's all I use. And I change it every year, with the mileage I put on.

hows it look when you drain it? just curious. i imagine it would be
about the same color, possibly with some very very fine metal "dust" in
it. or not?

Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

TeGGer® wrote:
> It's all I use. And I change it every year, with the mileage I put on.

hows it look when you drain it? just curious. i imagine it would be
about the same color, possibly with some very very fine metal "dust" in
it. or not?

Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

"SoCalMike" <mikein562athotmail@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f1gsd.438696$wV.8560@attbi_s54...
> TeGGer® wrote:
>> It's all I use. And I change it every year, with the mileage I put on.
>
> hows it look when you drain it? just curious. i imagine it would be about
> the same color, possibly with some very very fine metal "dust" in it. or
> not?

Mine looks pretty much the same colour as it went in.
Most (all?) Honda trans have a magnet stashed in them from the factory (yes,
even the manuals), and I've added a magnetic drain plug.

Steve
91 Accord 293K kms

Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

"SoCalMike" <mikein562athotmail@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f1gsd.438696$wV.8560@attbi_s54...
> TeGGer® wrote:
>> It's all I use. And I change it every year, with the mileage I put on.
>
> hows it look when you drain it? just curious. i imagine it would be about
> the same color, possibly with some very very fine metal "dust" in it. or
> not?

Mine looks pretty much the same colour as it went in.
Most (all?) Honda trans have a magnet stashed in them from the factory (yes,
even the manuals), and I've added a magnetic drain plug.

Steve
91 Accord 293K kms

Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

Randolph wrote:
>
> motsco_ _ wrote:
> >
> > Mentioning your mileage is a helpful idea too. Your old tranny lube may
> > just be exhausted. (or some clown already put non-honda stuff in it)Put
> > in Honda MTF and see. It's not like you're buying five gallons :-)
> >
> > 'Curly'
>
> Good point. '94 Civic Si, mileage now at 104k, transmission fluid
> replaced about every 30k, last time at 94k at independent shop that
> swore they used Honda MTL. No noticeable change in tranny behavior after
> the 94k change.
>
> Googleing, I found that the complaint was not seal failures as I
> remembered, but a bearing cage failure. I found one report of this, but
> no cause and effect analysis. I found a number of reports from people
> having used Redline MTL in Hondas over long distances with no issues.
> Redline tech support recommends their MTL for the Civic in Northern
> California's moderate climate.
>
> I'll change to Redline MTL some time in the next week or so unless
> someone points out a compelling reason not to.
>
> Thanks for all your thoughts and comments.



The big issue in changing type of fluid is that a different formula is
used for seal swelling and synthetics tend to leak past old seals.
Other than that, I am a big fan of Redline and use it in several vehicles...


--
JT

Just tooling through cyberspace in my ancient G4

Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

Randolph wrote:
>
> motsco_ _ wrote:
> >
> > Mentioning your mileage is a helpful idea too. Your old tranny lube may
> > just be exhausted. (or some clown already put non-honda stuff in it)Put
> > in Honda MTF and see. It's not like you're buying five gallons :-)
> >
> > 'Curly'
>
> Good point. '94 Civic Si, mileage now at 104k, transmission fluid
> replaced about every 30k, last time at 94k at independent shop that
> swore they used Honda MTL. No noticeable change in tranny behavior after
> the 94k change.
>
> Googleing, I found that the complaint was not seal failures as I
> remembered, but a bearing cage failure. I found one report of this, but
> no cause and effect analysis. I found a number of reports from people
> having used Redline MTL in Hondas over long distances with no issues.
> Redline tech support recommends their MTL for the Civic in Northern
> California's moderate climate.
>
> I'll change to Redline MTL some time in the next week or so unless
> someone points out a compelling reason not to.
>
> Thanks for all your thoughts and comments.



The big issue in changing type of fluid is that a different formula is
used for seal swelling and synthetics tend to leak past old seals.
Other than that, I am a big fan of Redline and use it in several vehicles...


--
JT

Just tooling through cyberspace in my ancient G4

Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

TeGGer® wrote:
> The zinc content of motor oils has been drastically reduced since 1994 to
> help prevent damage to emission control devices. That zinc (along with
> other additives) is what helps protect the gears, synchros, etc from undue
> friction.

Ahh, thanks. That's the info I needed.

Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

TeGGer® wrote:
> The zinc content of motor oils has been drastically reduced since 1994 to
> help prevent damage to emission control devices. That zinc (along with
> other additives) is what helps protect the gears, synchros, etc from undue
> friction.

Ahh, thanks. That's the info I needed.

Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

TeGGer® wrote:
> Then you haven't been reading my posts on synchronizer operation.

You're right, I missed "Re: Clutches & Braking", 11/29 @ 4:37 p.m. Thanks.

Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

TeGGer® wrote:
> Then you haven't been reading my posts on synchronizer operation.

You're right, I missed "Re: Clutches & Braking", 11/29 @ 4:37 p.m. Thanks.

Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

SoCalMike <mikein562athotmail@hotmail.com> floridly penned in
news:f1gsd.438696$wV.8560@attbi_s54:

> TeGGer® wrote:
>> It's all I use. And I change it every year, with the mileage I put on.
>
> hows it look when you drain it? just curious. i imagine it would be
> about the same color, possibly with some very very fine metal "dust" in
> it. or not?



It's a teeny, tiny bit darker. Don't know if that's metal or age.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

SoCalMike <mikein562athotmail@hotmail.com> floridly penned in
news:f1gsd.438696$wV.8560@attbi_s54:

> TeGGer® wrote:
>> It's all I use. And I change it every year, with the mileage I put on.
>
> hows it look when you drain it? just curious. i imagine it would be
> about the same color, possibly with some very very fine metal "dust" in
> it. or not?



It's a teeny, tiny bit darker. Don't know if that's metal or age.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:41:43 -0700, Curtis Newton
<cnewton.remove-this@akamail.com> wrote:

>However, I ran Redline MTL in my 5 speed Acura Integra and when I
>traded the car with close to 90,000 miles, it was still shifting
>smooth as can be. Perhaps I was lucky, perhaps it takes longer for
>the problems to crop up; I don't know.
>
>If in doubt, change your manual tranny fluid to Honda MTL and see if
>that clears things up.

My 1994 Civic says to use 10W-30, so I changed it to Syntec 10W-30 at
about 150,000 miles, and I'm now at 180,000 with no noticeable
difference, even at 20F outside. I don't think the fluid had ever been
changed before 150k, but it's still shifting smooth.

Nate

Re: Redline MTL in Honda tranny.
 

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:41:43 -0700, Curtis Newton
<cnewton.remove-this@akamail.com> wrote:

>However, I ran Redline MTL in my 5 speed Acura Integra and when I
>traded the car with close to 90,000 miles, it was still shifting
>smooth as can be. Perhaps I was lucky, perhaps it takes longer for
>the problems to crop up; I don't know.
>
>If in doubt, change your manual tranny fluid to Honda MTL and see if
>that clears things up.

My 1994 Civic says to use 10W-30, so I changed it to Syntec 10W-30 at
about 150,000 miles, and I'm now at 180,000 with no noticeable
difference, even at 20F outside. I don't think the fluid had ever been
changed before 150k, but it's still shifting smooth.

Nate