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Re: Saab Complaint
milt brewster wrote: > In article <HKt4H8.5AI@approve.se>, hoh@invalid.invalid says... > >>In article <MPG.19c3c0d51e46b39f989db8@news.sonic.net>, >>milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net> wrote: >> >> >>>If you own a Saab, check into your tire situation. >> >>This statement should be: >> >> If you own a car, check into your tire situation. >> >>It is *your* own responsibility to make sure that your tires/tyres >>are in a safe state. You can not blame the manufacturer of the car >>for everything that goes wrong. It is not always "the fault of >>someone else" even if that seems to be a common mentality in the >>US at the moment. > > > This is a very defensive response. If it were in a political > newsgroup, I'd say it was typical defensive Libertarian mind- > reading. > > I do check my car and my tires. I *do* maintain my car. I *don't* > abuse my car, nor have I hit potholes or anything else on the > road. It is presumptuous of you to think I don't -- and, I might > add, a bit "convenient" for you to just assume I have. > > ***** > > I should not have had TWO FREEWAY BLOWOUTS in six months driving > my new Saab under normal conditions. Period. > > Saab and Michelin should have handled their contact with me > differently than they did -- which was to pretty much deny their > own Warrantees and to charge me too much for their tardy service. > > ***** > > A Saab is not a political party or a football team: > Partisanship is irrelevant. I suggest that you take your auto > purchase as seriously as I do: Things like this should not have > happened to me, and they should not happen to you, either. > > > >>>Based on my quick, brutal experiences, I will never do business >>>with either company ever again. >> >>Based on your social skills you have shown here, I guess that you >>will not be missed by them. > > > Not everything about Saabs are perfect. Problems occur. They > should be reported in newsgroups like this and discussed > intelligently. People are not "morons," nor do they "lack social > skills" simply because they report those problems here. > > ... and based on my problems, Saab will indeed miss customers > like me. American buyers are a finicky lot. GM and Ford are > struggling this year because of indescretions of past years. > Chrysler has now lost third place in Sales to Toyota partly > because Toyota did things right and Chrysler had their own > quality and customer relations issues. > > Saab sales in the United States have not held up well over the > last several years, partly because of build quality and customer > relations issues like this. While Saab has improved their cars > and their customer care recently, they still have a ways to go. > > > mb Hi, May I ask a question? How come did you buy the Saab then? So you can cross post your rant and drag on and on? Thanks for your time and let's move onto different thread. Tony > |
Re: Saab Complaint
in article 3f5a746d$0$97237$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk, Henrik B. at
saab@tdcadsl_nospam_.dk wrote on 07/09/2003 00:57: > :: No, and that's my point here. The Honda Civic sells for 60% of > :: the cost of a 9-3 Saab, yet the Civic has a better safety and > > Yeah right! Safety? He he :) According to http://www.euroncap.com/, both the Toyota Corolla and the Honda Civic did very well actually. Both got 4 stars. Other Honda and Toyota models also got 4 stars. .... Oh, the both the Saab 9-3 and the 9-5 got 5 stars. Paul |
Re: Saab Complaint
in article 3f5a746d$0$97237$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk, Henrik B. at
saab@tdcadsl_nospam_.dk wrote on 07/09/2003 00:57: > :: No, and that's my point here. The Honda Civic sells for 60% of > :: the cost of a 9-3 Saab, yet the Civic has a better safety and > > Yeah right! Safety? He he :) According to http://www.euroncap.com/, both the Toyota Corolla and the Honda Civic did very well actually. Both got 4 stars. Other Honda and Toyota models also got 4 stars. .... Oh, the both the Saab 9-3 and the 9-5 got 5 stars. Paul |
Re: Saab Complaint
>
> I should not have had TWO FREEWAY BLOWOUTS in six months driving > my new Saab under normal conditions. Period. > > Saab and Michelin should have handled their contact with me > differently than they did -- which was to pretty much deny their > own Warrantees and to charge me too much for their tardy service. > > ***** > > A Saab is not a political party or a football team: > Partisanship is irrelevant. I suggest that you take your auto > purchase as seriously as I do: Things like this should not have > happened to me, and they should not happen to you, either. > > > YOu're right, you should not have had blowouts. You were due some decent customer service. The tires I have at Wal-Mart have 80K warrantees with maintenance...if I ran over a nail (which I did) they replace it without telling me it was my fault. You'd figure a high priced outfit like Saab would do the same. I always liked Saabs, never having driven one, but having seen them on the road in my native NE all the time. But I realize they are quirky, expensive cars. I can't understand all the hostility and snippiness here. Maybe they are defensive b/c they realize they paid 2x the price for something that is less reliable than a Toyota Camry? Keep bitching to you Saab place. There must be something wrong with the alignment. $245 is ridiculous for a tire. I had BF Goodrich's installed on my Toyota at Wal-mart (80 K miles warantee) for about $60 each including hazard, installation, etc. They seem like great tires. It's been 50K miles and they have plenty of tread left on them. Maybe not up to the "standards" of the stuffy people that seem to be on this Saab site, but I like them nonetheless. Also consider getting touring instead of "sport" tires. They are made more for comfort and long life. Maybe "sport" tires blowout easier? I don't know. |
Re: Saab Complaint
>
> I should not have had TWO FREEWAY BLOWOUTS in six months driving > my new Saab under normal conditions. Period. > > Saab and Michelin should have handled their contact with me > differently than they did -- which was to pretty much deny their > own Warrantees and to charge me too much for their tardy service. > > ***** > > A Saab is not a political party or a football team: > Partisanship is irrelevant. I suggest that you take your auto > purchase as seriously as I do: Things like this should not have > happened to me, and they should not happen to you, either. > > > YOu're right, you should not have had blowouts. You were due some decent customer service. The tires I have at Wal-Mart have 80K warrantees with maintenance...if I ran over a nail (which I did) they replace it without telling me it was my fault. You'd figure a high priced outfit like Saab would do the same. I always liked Saabs, never having driven one, but having seen them on the road in my native NE all the time. But I realize they are quirky, expensive cars. I can't understand all the hostility and snippiness here. Maybe they are defensive b/c they realize they paid 2x the price for something that is less reliable than a Toyota Camry? Keep bitching to you Saab place. There must be something wrong with the alignment. $245 is ridiculous for a tire. I had BF Goodrich's installed on my Toyota at Wal-mart (80 K miles warantee) for about $60 each including hazard, installation, etc. They seem like great tires. It's been 50K miles and they have plenty of tread left on them. Maybe not up to the "standards" of the stuffy people that seem to be on this Saab site, but I like them nonetheless. Also consider getting touring instead of "sport" tires. They are made more for comfort and long life. Maybe "sport" tires blowout easier? I don't know. |
Re: Saab Complaint
mi
> > When I had my FIRST blowout, I was very friendly and businesslike > at the Dealer. If anything, I was too friendly and compliant. > > My dealer knew I had had an emergency. My car had to be towed to > their garage. The dealer was curt and summarily refused to > consider the tire issue, or contacting the tire manufacturer. > They didn't perform a computer recall check on my car, which I > now know is mandatory for them. > > The dealer (B&B Saab in San Jose, CA) charged me $275 to install > an original equipment replacement Michelin tire, and they took a > day and a half. They also changed the oil in my car at the same > time, for another $85. > > > mb That's another problem with esoteric cars. The dealer density is low, so another Saab dealer is 100 miles away or so. $275 for a tire is robbery so is the oil change. How many quarts does it take? 20? I change my own oil for $10. It makes me feel good, as it's one of the only car type things I can do. My toyota has 135K miles on it, 8 years old, and HAS NEVER HAD A MAJOR PROBLEM. It gets 35mpg around town, still. There are other Toyotas with the same story. No transmission problems, no engine problems, no defects, recalls, nothing. No engine fires (Ford) or transmissions wearing out after 65K (Ford again). I agree, you should sell your Saab. The maintenance and replacement parts are probably lower on a standard honda or toyota so I'd go for one of those. There are more dealers per area so you will have a choice. The parts are cheaper as they come from Japan and not high cost Sweden. |
Re: Saab Complaint
mi
> > When I had my FIRST blowout, I was very friendly and businesslike > at the Dealer. If anything, I was too friendly and compliant. > > My dealer knew I had had an emergency. My car had to be towed to > their garage. The dealer was curt and summarily refused to > consider the tire issue, or contacting the tire manufacturer. > They didn't perform a computer recall check on my car, which I > now know is mandatory for them. > > The dealer (B&B Saab in San Jose, CA) charged me $275 to install > an original equipment replacement Michelin tire, and they took a > day and a half. They also changed the oil in my car at the same > time, for another $85. > > > mb That's another problem with esoteric cars. The dealer density is low, so another Saab dealer is 100 miles away or so. $275 for a tire is robbery so is the oil change. How many quarts does it take? 20? I change my own oil for $10. It makes me feel good, as it's one of the only car type things I can do. My toyota has 135K miles on it, 8 years old, and HAS NEVER HAD A MAJOR PROBLEM. It gets 35mpg around town, still. There are other Toyotas with the same story. No transmission problems, no engine problems, no defects, recalls, nothing. No engine fires (Ford) or transmissions wearing out after 65K (Ford again). I agree, you should sell your Saab. The maintenance and replacement parts are probably lower on a standard honda or toyota so I'd go for one of those. There are more dealers per area so you will have a choice. The parts are cheaper as they come from Japan and not high cost Sweden. |
Re: Saab Complaint
Paul Halliday <pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message news:<BB80BF85.958B%pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk>...
> in article 3f5a746d$0$97237$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk, Henrik B. at > saab@tdcadsl_nospam_.dk wrote on 07/09/2003 00:57: > > > :: No, and that's my point here. The Honda Civic sells for 60% of > > :: the cost of a 9-3 Saab, yet the Civic has a better safety and > > > > Yeah right! > > Safety? He he :) > > According to http://www.euroncap.com/, both the Toyota Corolla and the Honda > Civic did very well actually. Both got 4 stars. Other Honda and Toyota > models also got 4 stars. > > ... Oh, the both the Saab 9-3 and the 9-5 got 5 stars. > > Paul That's misleading though. Due to Toyota and Honda high reliability you are less likely to lose control of your car (due to blowouts and such) as you are (see OP's blowouts) in a SAAB. I'd rather drive a car with 4 stars that never gets in accidents than a 5 star safety car that has tire blowouts and probably engine failures and god knows what else. Those 5 starts won't due you much good when the transmission seizes on you and launches you headlong into a semi. |
Re: Saab Complaint
Paul Halliday <pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message news:<BB80BF85.958B%pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk>...
> in article 3f5a746d$0$97237$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk, Henrik B. at > saab@tdcadsl_nospam_.dk wrote on 07/09/2003 00:57: > > > :: No, and that's my point here. The Honda Civic sells for 60% of > > :: the cost of a 9-3 Saab, yet the Civic has a better safety and > > > > Yeah right! > > Safety? He he :) > > According to http://www.euroncap.com/, both the Toyota Corolla and the Honda > Civic did very well actually. Both got 4 stars. Other Honda and Toyota > models also got 4 stars. > > ... Oh, the both the Saab 9-3 and the 9-5 got 5 stars. > > Paul That's misleading though. Due to Toyota and Honda high reliability you are less likely to lose control of your car (due to blowouts and such) as you are (see OP's blowouts) in a SAAB. I'd rather drive a car with 4 stars that never gets in accidents than a 5 star safety car that has tire blowouts and probably engine failures and god knows what else. Those 5 starts won't due you much good when the transmission seizes on you and launches you headlong into a semi. |
Re: Saab Complaint
in article 68a6629.0309070455.1090e75a@posting.google.com, brianb at
bri1600bv@hotmail.com wrote on 07/09/2003 13:55: <snip>EuroNCAP</snip> .... And left cross-posted to alt.autos.honda and alt.autos.toyota > Those 5 stars won't do you much good when the transmission seizes on > you and launches you headlong into a semi. ( ^ Spelling and grammar corrected) A semi what? Those 5 stars make sure both myself and the other people (such as pedestrians) remain alive, rather than "4 star perhaps dead". Read the detail behind the summary tables. Since GM took over Saab, it has been a long climb for Saab to return to the same standards of safety they were revered for ten years ago. Saab today makes a good car and a much better car than it did at the launch of the 9-3 and 9-5 model ranges. Look at the EuroNCAP results for Saabs a couple of years ago (such as the 2000 model) - that tells a different story. This thread is discussing the 2000 model 9-3, which is not the same car as Saab produce today. The owner of that car is having a grumble about the standard and quality of tyres fitted three years ago. If he's thinking of changing to another car because he feels unsafe in his 2000 model, then he should take a long, hard look at those kinds of statistics. The other manufacturers that he was looking at, namely Toyota and Honda, do indeed fair much better than the 2000 model Saab 9-3, but do not fair as well as the current Saab range. Paul |
Re: Saab Complaint
in article 68a6629.0309070455.1090e75a@posting.google.com, brianb at
bri1600bv@hotmail.com wrote on 07/09/2003 13:55: <snip>EuroNCAP</snip> .... And left cross-posted to alt.autos.honda and alt.autos.toyota > Those 5 stars won't do you much good when the transmission seizes on > you and launches you headlong into a semi. ( ^ Spelling and grammar corrected) A semi what? Those 5 stars make sure both myself and the other people (such as pedestrians) remain alive, rather than "4 star perhaps dead". Read the detail behind the summary tables. Since GM took over Saab, it has been a long climb for Saab to return to the same standards of safety they were revered for ten years ago. Saab today makes a good car and a much better car than it did at the launch of the 9-3 and 9-5 model ranges. Look at the EuroNCAP results for Saabs a couple of years ago (such as the 2000 model) - that tells a different story. This thread is discussing the 2000 model 9-3, which is not the same car as Saab produce today. The owner of that car is having a grumble about the standard and quality of tyres fitted three years ago. If he's thinking of changing to another car because he feels unsafe in his 2000 model, then he should take a long, hard look at those kinds of statistics. The other manufacturers that he was looking at, namely Toyota and Honda, do indeed fair much better than the 2000 model Saab 9-3, but do not fair as well as the current Saab range. Paul |
Re: Saab Complaint
in article 68a6629.0309070455.1090e75a@posting.google.com, brianb at
bri1600bv@hotmail.com wrote on 07/09/2003 13:55: <snip>EuroNCAP</snip> .... And left cross-posted to alt.autos.honda and alt.autos.toyota > Those 5 stars won't do you much good when the transmission seizes on > you and launches you headlong into a semi. ( ^ Spelling and grammar corrected) A semi what? Those 5 stars make sure both myself and the other people (such as pedestrians) remain alive, rather than "4 star perhaps dead". Read the detail behind the summary tables. Since GM took over Saab, it has been a long climb for Saab to return to the same standards of safety they were revered for ten years ago. Saab today makes a good car and a much better car than it did at the launch of the 9-3 and 9-5 model ranges. Look at the EuroNCAP results for Saabs a couple of years ago (such as the 2000 model) - that tells a different story. This thread is discussing the 2000 model 9-3, which is not the same car as Saab produce today. The owner of that car is having a grumble about the standard and quality of tyres fitted three years ago. If he's thinking of changing to another car because he feels unsafe in his 2000 model, then he should take a long, hard look at those kinds of statistics. The other manufacturers that he was looking at, namely Toyota and Honda, do indeed fair much better than the 2000 model Saab 9-3, but do not fair as well as the current Saab range. Paul |
Re: Saab Complaint
in article 68a6629.0309070455.1090e75a@posting.google.com, brianb at
bri1600bv@hotmail.com wrote on 07/09/2003 13:55: <snip>EuroNCAP</snip> .... And left cross-posted to alt.autos.honda and alt.autos.toyota > Those 5 stars won't do you much good when the transmission seizes on > you and launches you headlong into a semi. ( ^ Spelling and grammar corrected) A semi what? Those 5 stars make sure both myself and the other people (such as pedestrians) remain alive, rather than "4 star perhaps dead". Read the detail behind the summary tables. Since GM took over Saab, it has been a long climb for Saab to return to the same standards of safety they were revered for ten years ago. Saab today makes a good car and a much better car than it did at the launch of the 9-3 and 9-5 model ranges. Look at the EuroNCAP results for Saabs a couple of years ago (such as the 2000 model) - that tells a different story. This thread is discussing the 2000 model 9-3, which is not the same car as Saab produce today. The owner of that car is having a grumble about the standard and quality of tyres fitted three years ago. If he's thinking of changing to another car because he feels unsafe in his 2000 model, then he should take a long, hard look at those kinds of statistics. The other manufacturers that he was looking at, namely Toyota and Honda, do indeed fair much better than the 2000 model Saab 9-3, but do not fair as well as the current Saab range. Paul |
Re: Saab Complaint
In article <68a6629.0309070444.7ffb855e@posting.google.com> ,
bri1600bv@hotmail.com spouted forth into alt.autos.saab... > $245 is ridiculous for a tire. I had BF Goodrich's installed on my > Toyota at Wal-mart (80 K miles warantee) for about $60 each including > hazard, installation, etc. They seem like great tires. It's been 50K > miles and they have plenty of tread left on them. Maybe not up to the > "standards" of the stuffy people that seem to be on this Saab site, > but I like them nonetheless. Also consider getting touring instead of > "sport" tires. They are made more for comfort and long life. Maybe > "sport" tires blowout easier? I don't know. > Brian Mate. Even in the "overpriced Quirky" Saab group, we fully agree, That price should buy you a set of tyres (I'm in the UK, OK LOL). Maybe slightly more for the set if you buy/fit the correct speed/weight/load rating tyres. Michelin are pricey, and some like the Pilot Premacy are excellent. When my last car(A Skoda) needed tyres, I wanted quality, but budget, so I fitted BF Goodrich Tourings, because they were the best compromise between, price, hardness and quality (car is only slow). When I needed tyres for the Saab, I went with Avon for a set of ZV1's. Excellent tyre, and not much more than the Goodrich's. Just for the record, at least in Europe, I think that Goodriches are made by Michelin as a licensed brand name. Look after tyres, check the pressure, and condition, make sure they are the right ratings for your car, and make sure that your alignment/suspension is set up properly, and not faulty/damaged, and not a lot can go wrong. If it does, then either you drive over bottle/spike, or the tyre is faulty. The tyre maker should sort it, that may be through the car dealer. It may also be direct. Depends on how the law in different countries works. -- Carl Robson (The poster formerly known as Skodapilot) http://www.bouncing-czechs.com |
Re: Saab Complaint
In article <68a6629.0309070444.7ffb855e@posting.google.com> ,
bri1600bv@hotmail.com spouted forth into alt.autos.saab... > $245 is ridiculous for a tire. I had BF Goodrich's installed on my > Toyota at Wal-mart (80 K miles warantee) for about $60 each including > hazard, installation, etc. They seem like great tires. It's been 50K > miles and they have plenty of tread left on them. Maybe not up to the > "standards" of the stuffy people that seem to be on this Saab site, > but I like them nonetheless. Also consider getting touring instead of > "sport" tires. They are made more for comfort and long life. Maybe > "sport" tires blowout easier? I don't know. > Brian Mate. Even in the "overpriced Quirky" Saab group, we fully agree, That price should buy you a set of tyres (I'm in the UK, OK LOL). Maybe slightly more for the set if you buy/fit the correct speed/weight/load rating tyres. Michelin are pricey, and some like the Pilot Premacy are excellent. When my last car(A Skoda) needed tyres, I wanted quality, but budget, so I fitted BF Goodrich Tourings, because they were the best compromise between, price, hardness and quality (car is only slow). When I needed tyres for the Saab, I went with Avon for a set of ZV1's. Excellent tyre, and not much more than the Goodrich's. Just for the record, at least in Europe, I think that Goodriches are made by Michelin as a licensed brand name. Look after tyres, check the pressure, and condition, make sure they are the right ratings for your car, and make sure that your alignment/suspension is set up properly, and not faulty/damaged, and not a lot can go wrong. If it does, then either you drive over bottle/spike, or the tyre is faulty. The tyre maker should sort it, that may be through the car dealer. It may also be direct. Depends on how the law in different countries works. -- Carl Robson (The poster formerly known as Skodapilot) http://www.bouncing-czechs.com |
Re: Saab Complaint
In article <68a6629.0309070444.7ffb855e@posting.google.com> , bri1600bv@hotmail.com spouted forth into alt.autos.saab... > $245 is ridiculous for a tire. I had BF Goodrich's installed on my > Toyota at Wal-mart (80 K miles warantee) for about $60 each including > hazard, installation, etc. They seem like great tires. It's been 50K > miles and they have plenty of tread left on them. Maybe not up to the > "standards" of the stuffy people that seem to be on this Saab site, > but I like them nonetheless. Also consider getting touring instead of > "sport" tires. They are made more for comfort and long life. Maybe > "sport" tires blowout easier? I don't know. > Brian Mate. Even in the "overpriced Quirky" Saab group, we fully agree, That price should buy you a set of tyres (I'm in the UK, OK LOL). Maybe slightly more for the set if you buy/fit the correct speed/weight/load rating tyres. Michelin are pricey, and some like the Pilot Premacy are excellent. When my last car(A Skoda) needed tyres, I wanted quality, but budget, so I fitted BF Goodrich Tourings, because they were the best compromise between, price, hardness and quality (car is only slow). When I needed tyres for the Saab, I went with Avon for a set of ZV1's. Excellent tyre, and not much more than the Goodrich's. Just for the record, at least in Europe, I think that Goodriches are made by Michelin as a licensed brand name. Look after tyres, check the pressure, and condition, make sure they are the right ratings for your car, and make sure that your alignment/suspension is set up properly, and not faulty/damaged, and not a lot can go wrong. If it does, then either you drive over bottle/spike, or the tyre is faulty. The tyre maker should sort it, that may be through the car dealer. It may also be direct. Depends on how the law in different countries works. -- Carl Robson (The poster formerly known as Skodapilot) http://www.bouncing-czechs.com |
Re: Saab Complaint
In article <68a6629.0309070444.7ffb855e@posting.google.com> , bri1600bv@hotmail.com spouted forth into alt.autos.saab... > $245 is ridiculous for a tire. I had BF Goodrich's installed on my > Toyota at Wal-mart (80 K miles warantee) for about $60 each including > hazard, installation, etc. They seem like great tires. It's been 50K > miles and they have plenty of tread left on them. Maybe not up to the > "standards" of the stuffy people that seem to be on this Saab site, > but I like them nonetheless. Also consider getting touring instead of > "sport" tires. They are made more for comfort and long life. Maybe > "sport" tires blowout easier? I don't know. > Brian Mate. Even in the "overpriced Quirky" Saab group, we fully agree, That price should buy you a set of tyres (I'm in the UK, OK LOL). Maybe slightly more for the set if you buy/fit the correct speed/weight/load rating tyres. Michelin are pricey, and some like the Pilot Premacy are excellent. When my last car(A Skoda) needed tyres, I wanted quality, but budget, so I fitted BF Goodrich Tourings, because they were the best compromise between, price, hardness and quality (car is only slow). When I needed tyres for the Saab, I went with Avon for a set of ZV1's. Excellent tyre, and not much more than the Goodrich's. Just for the record, at least in Europe, I think that Goodriches are made by Michelin as a licensed brand name. Look after tyres, check the pressure, and condition, make sure they are the right ratings for your car, and make sure that your alignment/suspension is set up properly, and not faulty/damaged, and not a lot can go wrong. If it does, then either you drive over bottle/spike, or the tyre is faulty. The tyre maker should sort it, that may be through the car dealer. It may also be direct. Depends on how the law in different countries works. -- Carl Robson (The poster formerly known as Skodapilot) http://www.bouncing-czechs.com |
Re: Saab Complaint
Paul Halliday wrote:
:: Since GM took over Saab, it has been a long climb for Saab to return :: to the same standards of safety they were revered for ten years ago. :: Saab today makes a good car and a much better car than it did at the :: launch of the 9-3 and 9-5 model ranges. Look at the EuroNCAP results :: for Saabs a couple of years ago (such as the 2000 model) - that :: tells a different story. What a load of rubbish Paul. :o) Just recently, Swedish Folksam (insurance company), has named the Saab 9-5 the safest car driving the Swedish streets! They investigated 76.000 accidents in a period from 1996 - 2001 (or was it 2002). No other car is as safe as the Saab 9-5 (1998-model). So Saab is building safer cars than ever. Meaning that the Saab 9-5 from -98 up is as safe as anything else. I tend not to put too much faith in EuroNCAP-results as it gives a stationary picture. Whereas the Folksam statistic is "reallife". Here's a link, observe that the Saab 9-3 also is on top: http://www.folksam.se/engelsk/howsafeisyourcar.htm Cheers! |
Re: Saab Complaint
Paul Halliday wrote:
:: Since GM took over Saab, it has been a long climb for Saab to return :: to the same standards of safety they were revered for ten years ago. :: Saab today makes a good car and a much better car than it did at the :: launch of the 9-3 and 9-5 model ranges. Look at the EuroNCAP results :: for Saabs a couple of years ago (such as the 2000 model) - that :: tells a different story. What a load of rubbish Paul. :o) Just recently, Swedish Folksam (insurance company), has named the Saab 9-5 the safest car driving the Swedish streets! They investigated 76.000 accidents in a period from 1996 - 2001 (or was it 2002). No other car is as safe as the Saab 9-5 (1998-model). So Saab is building safer cars than ever. Meaning that the Saab 9-5 from -98 up is as safe as anything else. I tend not to put too much faith in EuroNCAP-results as it gives a stationary picture. Whereas the Folksam statistic is "reallife". Here's a link, observe that the Saab 9-3 also is on top: http://www.folksam.se/engelsk/howsafeisyourcar.htm Cheers! |
Re: Saab Complaint
Paul Halliday wrote:
:: Since GM took over Saab, it has been a long climb for Saab to return :: to the same standards of safety they were revered for ten years ago. :: Saab today makes a good car and a much better car than it did at the :: launch of the 9-3 and 9-5 model ranges. Look at the EuroNCAP results :: for Saabs a couple of years ago (such as the 2000 model) - that :: tells a different story. What a load of rubbish Paul. :o) Just recently, Swedish Folksam (insurance company), has named the Saab 9-5 the safest car driving the Swedish streets! They investigated 76.000 accidents in a period from 1996 - 2001 (or was it 2002). No other car is as safe as the Saab 9-5 (1998-model). So Saab is building safer cars than ever. Meaning that the Saab 9-5 from -98 up is as safe as anything else. I tend not to put too much faith in EuroNCAP-results as it gives a stationary picture. Whereas the Folksam statistic is "reallife". Here's a link, observe that the Saab 9-3 also is on top: http://www.folksam.se/engelsk/howsafeisyourcar.htm Cheers! |
Re: Saab Complaint
Paul Halliday wrote:
:: Since GM took over Saab, it has been a long climb for Saab to return :: to the same standards of safety they were revered for ten years ago. :: Saab today makes a good car and a much better car than it did at the :: launch of the 9-3 and 9-5 model ranges. Look at the EuroNCAP results :: for Saabs a couple of years ago (such as the 2000 model) - that :: tells a different story. What a load of rubbish Paul. :o) Just recently, Swedish Folksam (insurance company), has named the Saab 9-5 the safest car driving the Swedish streets! They investigated 76.000 accidents in a period from 1996 - 2001 (or was it 2002). No other car is as safe as the Saab 9-5 (1998-model). So Saab is building safer cars than ever. Meaning that the Saab 9-5 from -98 up is as safe as anything else. I tend not to put too much faith in EuroNCAP-results as it gives a stationary picture. Whereas the Folksam statistic is "reallife". Here's a link, observe that the Saab 9-3 also is on top: http://www.folksam.se/engelsk/howsafeisyourcar.htm Cheers! |
Re: Saab Complaint
In article <bjffe2$ijn6q$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>,
davehinz@spamcop.net says... > On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 04:06:51 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net> wrote: > > In article <bjdes4$i67t0$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>, > > davehinz@spamcop.net says... > >> On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 18:50:56 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net> wrote: > >> > In article <bjat1j$h21m6$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>, > >> > davehinz@spamcop.net says... > >> >> > >> >> What is your intention here, to start a cross-brand flamewar? > >> > No. > >> I asked because it wouldn't be the first time. > > I've never started a 'cross-brand' flamewar. > > Maybe, but disruptive sorts seem to enjoy doing so, and oddly enough, > the selection of the groups is always consistant. Your language, choice > of crossposted (offtopic) groups, and tone are consistant with the > pattern. It's also odd, then, that you've re-added the other groups > to the followups, even though someone else had taken them out. A troll posts and runs. I am not running. I am glad to clear up your mistaken impressions. I do indeed own a new Saab. I have indeed had two problems with it that I believe I should not have had. I do in fact believe that a Usenet newsgroup is one place this problem should be publicized and discussed. I believe that I am in fact being trolled in this thread by several of you regulars. That's OK: I know how to use trolls in general to make my point in a newsgroup. It's your choice: You can either look good by addressing the problem; or you can look childish by trolling a "newbie" to your newsgroup. People finding these posts on groups.google.com will be able to tell the difference years and years from now. I selected the newsgroups I wanted to post to. It was and is my selection to make. It is rude for you or anyone else to remove them. I posted to toyota and honda auto groups for two reasons: 1) Toyotas and Hondas are Saab's major compeditors in the US. Posters to those groups might very well have constructive new perspectives to add, regarding the problems I am having with my Saab. 2) Toyota and Honda have been particularly successful in controlling quality, and in resolving owner complaints. Saab (and GM) could learn a thing or two from those companies. > > >> Why include Toyota and > >> Honda groups then? (I've chosen to remove them from my followups) > > > > I included Toyota and Honda because these two companies seem to > > be building cars with better maintenance histories, and seem to > > be providing much better customer service than Saab is currently > > -- and these are Saab's real compeditors -- not BMW or whatever. > > Two tires on your car blew out. Do you understand that two tires does > not a statistical trend make? > > > I explained it quite clearly. Two catastrophic tire blowouts: > > Not arguing that, although I wonder what a non-catastrophic blowout > would be. This is quibbling, but I'll answer your one-liner anyway. "catastrophic" happens to be a term often used in Court -- it describes a quick (sometimes explosive) tire failure that destroys the tire and also puts the car and its occupants at risk. It can also imply that the failed tire was defective in some way. > > > bad Dealer service: > > Perhaps, I wasn't there. If you came in frothing at the mouth as you did > here, I can see why they didn't wnat to bend over backwards to help you. 1) I handled myself quite well at the dealer. You can't keep making this assumption over and over again after I've assured you otherwise, and assume you're making some kind of important point. You start to look a little foolish. 2) Dealers MUST handle even bad customers better than my Saab dealer did, if they want repeat business. The dealer doesn't get a "pass" because you personally don't like my post. [snip] > > > THIS is NOT a small problem. I see enough other discussions here > > about tires and wheelrims and the like, to know this is a major > > concern for some Saab owners already. > > Oh, now it's rims too, not just Michelin tires? You really should figure > out what your point is before you try to go with it. I can't recall any > other posts about Michelin blowouts, and that's over many years here. My tires shredded, partly because the wheelrims sat right down at the border area between the sidewall and the tire tread, and sliced through them when they blew. It happened very quickly -- a matter of a few seconds. This behavior not only destroys a lightly damaged tire, it is also very bad for the wheelrim as well. Saab is getting at least some wheel rim complaints because of this problem, which happens at low speeds as well as high speeds. Saab engineers should have anticipated this behavior upon tire failure, and designed their wheelrims to at least minimize it. [snip] > > No. You have provided no evidence of this, and you continue to evade > the question about wheel alignment. Third request, have you had that > checked? The rear tire blew. I was assured that on a Saab, the alignment would not be affected. But yes, I've had my alignment checked anyway: Two months ago, and again yesterday. Absolutely no change. It's just fine. I am certainly claiming that these Michelins are faulty, based on my experience with them. Two blowouts in six months on nearly new OEM tires is a very good reason for an owner to register a complaint with his car manufacturer. A good company would replace those tires for free if they have some service records of other owners making the same complaints: This is Freshman QA Engineering. It's also Freshmen Marketing Management. [snip] mb |
Re: Saab Complaint
In article <bjffe2$ijn6q$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>,
davehinz@spamcop.net says... > On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 04:06:51 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net> wrote: > > In article <bjdes4$i67t0$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>, > > davehinz@spamcop.net says... > >> On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 18:50:56 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net> wrote: > >> > In article <bjat1j$h21m6$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>, > >> > davehinz@spamcop.net says... > >> >> > >> >> What is your intention here, to start a cross-brand flamewar? > >> > No. > >> I asked because it wouldn't be the first time. > > I've never started a 'cross-brand' flamewar. > > Maybe, but disruptive sorts seem to enjoy doing so, and oddly enough, > the selection of the groups is always consistant. Your language, choice > of crossposted (offtopic) groups, and tone are consistant with the > pattern. It's also odd, then, that you've re-added the other groups > to the followups, even though someone else had taken them out. A troll posts and runs. I am not running. I am glad to clear up your mistaken impressions. I do indeed own a new Saab. I have indeed had two problems with it that I believe I should not have had. I do in fact believe that a Usenet newsgroup is one place this problem should be publicized and discussed. I believe that I am in fact being trolled in this thread by several of you regulars. That's OK: I know how to use trolls in general to make my point in a newsgroup. It's your choice: You can either look good by addressing the problem; or you can look childish by trolling a "newbie" to your newsgroup. People finding these posts on groups.google.com will be able to tell the difference years and years from now. I selected the newsgroups I wanted to post to. It was and is my selection to make. It is rude for you or anyone else to remove them. I posted to toyota and honda auto groups for two reasons: 1) Toyotas and Hondas are Saab's major compeditors in the US. Posters to those groups might very well have constructive new perspectives to add, regarding the problems I am having with my Saab. 2) Toyota and Honda have been particularly successful in controlling quality, and in resolving owner complaints. Saab (and GM) could learn a thing or two from those companies. > > >> Why include Toyota and > >> Honda groups then? (I've chosen to remove them from my followups) > > > > I included Toyota and Honda because these two companies seem to > > be building cars with better maintenance histories, and seem to > > be providing much better customer service than Saab is currently > > -- and these are Saab's real compeditors -- not BMW or whatever. > > Two tires on your car blew out. Do you understand that two tires does > not a statistical trend make? > > > I explained it quite clearly. Two catastrophic tire blowouts: > > Not arguing that, although I wonder what a non-catastrophic blowout > would be. This is quibbling, but I'll answer your one-liner anyway. "catastrophic" happens to be a term often used in Court -- it describes a quick (sometimes explosive) tire failure that destroys the tire and also puts the car and its occupants at risk. It can also imply that the failed tire was defective in some way. > > > bad Dealer service: > > Perhaps, I wasn't there. If you came in frothing at the mouth as you did > here, I can see why they didn't wnat to bend over backwards to help you. 1) I handled myself quite well at the dealer. You can't keep making this assumption over and over again after I've assured you otherwise, and assume you're making some kind of important point. You start to look a little foolish. 2) Dealers MUST handle even bad customers better than my Saab dealer did, if they want repeat business. The dealer doesn't get a "pass" because you personally don't like my post. [snip] > > > THIS is NOT a small problem. I see enough other discussions here > > about tires and wheelrims and the like, to know this is a major > > concern for some Saab owners already. > > Oh, now it's rims too, not just Michelin tires? You really should figure > out what your point is before you try to go with it. I can't recall any > other posts about Michelin blowouts, and that's over many years here. My tires shredded, partly because the wheelrims sat right down at the border area between the sidewall and the tire tread, and sliced through them when they blew. It happened very quickly -- a matter of a few seconds. This behavior not only destroys a lightly damaged tire, it is also very bad for the wheelrim as well. Saab is getting at least some wheel rim complaints because of this problem, which happens at low speeds as well as high speeds. Saab engineers should have anticipated this behavior upon tire failure, and designed their wheelrims to at least minimize it. [snip] > > No. You have provided no evidence of this, and you continue to evade > the question about wheel alignment. Third request, have you had that > checked? The rear tire blew. I was assured that on a Saab, the alignment would not be affected. But yes, I've had my alignment checked anyway: Two months ago, and again yesterday. Absolutely no change. It's just fine. I am certainly claiming that these Michelins are faulty, based on my experience with them. Two blowouts in six months on nearly new OEM tires is a very good reason for an owner to register a complaint with his car manufacturer. A good company would replace those tires for free if they have some service records of other owners making the same complaints: This is Freshman QA Engineering. It's also Freshmen Marketing Management. [snip] mb |
Re: Saab Complaint
In article <bjffe2$ijn6q$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>,
davehinz@spamcop.net says... > On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 04:06:51 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net> wrote: > > In article <bjdes4$i67t0$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>, > > davehinz@spamcop.net says... > >> On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 18:50:56 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net> wrote: > >> > In article <bjat1j$h21m6$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>, > >> > davehinz@spamcop.net says... > >> >> [snip] > >> >> What was the cause of the blowout? Did you have your pressures > >> >> set properly? Does your car have an alignment problem? Are you > >> >> trying to solve the problem, or just complain about it? > > > > My car is well maintained. So are the tires. I do not have an > > alignment problem. The second blowout was a rear tire anyway. > > The problem is not something simple. > > So, now you're telling us (finally) that it's one front and > one back, maybe? Are they both on the same side of the car? > 20-questions time here. If you want helpful suggestions, don't > expect us to draw these things out one post at a time. If you > just want to complain, well, that's your choice. Left front; Right Rear. Alignment fine both times. No obvious external punctures or cuts both times. > > I am indeed reporting this problem to this newsgroup. If you call > > it "complaining," then so be it. It's still a valid issue, > > however you choose to characterize it. > > OK, everyone, listen up. Some guy in Califorina had two blowouts of > Michelin tires on his Saab. > > There. Two data points for michelin tire failures. We're up to, er, let's > see, two. You are reeel good at quibbling. You are not so good at examining a problem in the way a QA Engineer or Operations Manager at a well-managed auto company would examine the problem. I have already responded to you at length about why my personal experience might very well be important to a lot of Saab owners. .... fact is; you don't need to have a significant fraction of users reporting a problem for it to exist in a complex product like an automobile or a computer. With a complex product, a problem serious enough to cost a Manufacturer lots of money can indeed exist in less than one percent of its product users. As an example, I read that Ford SUV tire problems occurred in less than a tenth of one percent of their owners (one in a thousand), when Ford finally had to issue a Recall notice and the first cases went to Trial. I am therefore not surprised that this general-purpose enthusiasts' newsgroup isn't overwhelmed with tire blowout stories. They are nonetheless important. ***** I've gone back and re-read your responses to my earlier post, where I discussed this in more detail. It's apparent that you didn't understand the basic concepts I described there. I guess you don't have much background in basic QA engineering or Business Operations Management and research. That's OK. Please go back and re-read what I wrote. It is much more important to you and the major purchase choices you make in your own private life than you might have thought. > > This could be a very serious issue for owners of late model > > Saabs. > > To you, it's very serious. To the population of Saab drivers, it seems not > to be, since nobody else has reported same here. You could check > The Saab Network, I suppose. In fact, that would be a good next place for > you to do some homework. Maybe someone else there has seen this. Indeed, some of them have. Once again, it is apparent to me that you don't understand the basic Engineering and QA problems that cause product failures in complex modern technical products. > > So could dealer relations and GM resolution practices, > > which have completely failed in my case. ALL this belongs on this > > newsgroup, whether you call it a minor issue or not, or > > conveniently dismiss me as a "complainer." > > You are accusing Saab of "criminal" behavior, without having any basis > for such a claim. What were you expecting, a group-hug? I was expecting at least a few knowledgeable posters here in the Saab group to focus on the problem I reported, and NOT to start with personal namecalling. Focusing on the issue instead of the emotional content of a trouble call, is an elementary help-desk management technique. I thought there were some people here with the tech background and business experience to realize that. Apparently, I was wrong. This surprises me. It is common practice in lots of other Usenet technical newsgroups -- esp. the computer newsgroups, where people are often angry and frustrated, and the threads settle down enough to resolve whatever problem that was reported. Even the other auto newsgroups perform better than alt.autos.saab has responded here. This group is behaving more like a cliquish TeenBunny fan gossip group than a real automobile newsgroup. ORIGINAL POST: Brittany Spears is singing off-key! GROUP RESPONSE: You moron! You arrogant prick! You troll! > > While I am trying to resolve this problem, I am completely stuck. > > The dealer won't deal -- says he's not responsible. For the first > > blowout, he charged me $275 and took two days to install the new > > tire. Michelin won't even talk to me on the phone. All I can do > > is buy yet another tire and keep on driving. > > What kind of tire did you buy? I have a Dunlop on the Right Rear now because it was all I could find. I intend to replace all four tires as soon as I can find a reliable, well-made midprice tire. Researching cars and tires has changed in the last few years. I have no idea what tire I really should be buying, how to personally examine a new tire for design and quality, or what to look for in a tire Warrantee these days. > > >> >> What is the cause of this atypical problem with your particular > >> >> car? > > > > I don't know. > > Exactly. So how do you justify the accusation of "criminal" behavior? I had an experience that normally only manufacturers' Negligence would cause. Negligence constitutes "criminal" product liability on the part of Saab and Michelin.. > > I believe that the Michelin tires that came with my Saab are > > faulty. Two of the four tires that came with my car have had > > explosive sidewall blowouts on the freeway in less than ten > > thousand miles of light driving. > > > > Either Michelin or Saab should replace them. I should have new, > > free tires. > > So take your tires, and your homework, to small claims court & let a > judge decide. In other words, you see my point but don't want to deal with it. > > > I would also like to know if national service records would show > > that more than around 1000 new Saabs a year have experienced > > sudden sidewall blowout failures from OEM Michelin tires during > > freeway driving. If the number is this high, then Saab has a > > serious product safety problem. It should immediately replace all > > these tires on any Saab they've sold in the last four years or > > so, with less than maybe 20,000 miles on OEM Michelin tires. > > Sounds like you have a lot of homework to do then, doesn't it. > (all of which you should be doing first, before throwing your > accusations around, by the way). Nope. My experience gives me every justification to raise these questions; right here in this newsgroup. I hope that Saab owners like you can either affirm similar experiences, or produce information that would argue against my strong suspicions here. To the contrary, you guys are showing posting behavior I expect to see from kids in a showbiz fan gossip group: [snip] mb |
Re: Saab Complaint
In article <bjffe2$ijn6q$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>,
davehinz@spamcop.net says... > On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 04:06:51 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net> wrote: > > In article <bjdes4$i67t0$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>, > > davehinz@spamcop.net says... > >> On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 18:50:56 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net> wrote: > >> > In article <bjat1j$h21m6$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>, > >> > davehinz@spamcop.net says... > >> >> [snip] > >> >> What was the cause of the blowout? Did you have your pressures > >> >> set properly? Does your car have an alignment problem? Are you > >> >> trying to solve the problem, or just complain about it? > > > > My car is well maintained. So are the tires. I do not have an > > alignment problem. The second blowout was a rear tire anyway. > > The problem is not something simple. > > So, now you're telling us (finally) that it's one front and > one back, maybe? Are they both on the same side of the car? > 20-questions time here. If you want helpful suggestions, don't > expect us to draw these things out one post at a time. If you > just want to complain, well, that's your choice. Left front; Right Rear. Alignment fine both times. No obvious external punctures or cuts both times. > > I am indeed reporting this problem to this newsgroup. If you call > > it "complaining," then so be it. It's still a valid issue, > > however you choose to characterize it. > > OK, everyone, listen up. Some guy in Califorina had two blowouts of > Michelin tires on his Saab. > > There. Two data points for michelin tire failures. We're up to, er, let's > see, two. You are reeel good at quibbling. You are not so good at examining a problem in the way a QA Engineer or Operations Manager at a well-managed auto company would examine the problem. I have already responded to you at length about why my personal experience might very well be important to a lot of Saab owners. .... fact is; you don't need to have a significant fraction of users reporting a problem for it to exist in a complex product like an automobile or a computer. With a complex product, a problem serious enough to cost a Manufacturer lots of money can indeed exist in less than one percent of its product users. As an example, I read that Ford SUV tire problems occurred in less than a tenth of one percent of their owners (one in a thousand), when Ford finally had to issue a Recall notice and the first cases went to Trial. I am therefore not surprised that this general-purpose enthusiasts' newsgroup isn't overwhelmed with tire blowout stories. They are nonetheless important. ***** I've gone back and re-read your responses to my earlier post, where I discussed this in more detail. It's apparent that you didn't understand the basic concepts I described there. I guess you don't have much background in basic QA engineering or Business Operations Management and research. That's OK. Please go back and re-read what I wrote. It is much more important to you and the major purchase choices you make in your own private life than you might have thought. > > This could be a very serious issue for owners of late model > > Saabs. > > To you, it's very serious. To the population of Saab drivers, it seems not > to be, since nobody else has reported same here. You could check > The Saab Network, I suppose. In fact, that would be a good next place for > you to do some homework. Maybe someone else there has seen this. Indeed, some of them have. Once again, it is apparent to me that you don't understand the basic Engineering and QA problems that cause product failures in complex modern technical products. > > So could dealer relations and GM resolution practices, > > which have completely failed in my case. ALL this belongs on this > > newsgroup, whether you call it a minor issue or not, or > > conveniently dismiss me as a "complainer." > > You are accusing Saab of "criminal" behavior, without having any basis > for such a claim. What were you expecting, a group-hug? I was expecting at least a few knowledgeable posters here in the Saab group to focus on the problem I reported, and NOT to start with personal namecalling. Focusing on the issue instead of the emotional content of a trouble call, is an elementary help-desk management technique. I thought there were some people here with the tech background and business experience to realize that. Apparently, I was wrong. This surprises me. It is common practice in lots of other Usenet technical newsgroups -- esp. the computer newsgroups, where people are often angry and frustrated, and the threads settle down enough to resolve whatever problem that was reported. Even the other auto newsgroups perform better than alt.autos.saab has responded here. This group is behaving more like a cliquish TeenBunny fan gossip group than a real automobile newsgroup. ORIGINAL POST: Brittany Spears is singing off-key! GROUP RESPONSE: You moron! You arrogant prick! You troll! > > While I am trying to resolve this problem, I am completely stuck. > > The dealer won't deal -- says he's not responsible. For the first > > blowout, he charged me $275 and took two days to install the new > > tire. Michelin won't even talk to me on the phone. All I can do > > is buy yet another tire and keep on driving. > > What kind of tire did you buy? I have a Dunlop on the Right Rear now because it was all I could find. I intend to replace all four tires as soon as I can find a reliable, well-made midprice tire. Researching cars and tires has changed in the last few years. I have no idea what tire I really should be buying, how to personally examine a new tire for design and quality, or what to look for in a tire Warrantee these days. > > >> >> What is the cause of this atypical problem with your particular > >> >> car? > > > > I don't know. > > Exactly. So how do you justify the accusation of "criminal" behavior? I had an experience that normally only manufacturers' Negligence would cause. Negligence constitutes "criminal" product liability on the part of Saab and Michelin.. > > I believe that the Michelin tires that came with my Saab are > > faulty. Two of the four tires that came with my car have had > > explosive sidewall blowouts on the freeway in less than ten > > thousand miles of light driving. > > > > Either Michelin or Saab should replace them. I should have new, > > free tires. > > So take your tires, and your homework, to small claims court & let a > judge decide. In other words, you see my point but don't want to deal with it. > > > I would also like to know if national service records would show > > that more than around 1000 new Saabs a year have experienced > > sudden sidewall blowout failures from OEM Michelin tires during > > freeway driving. If the number is this high, then Saab has a > > serious product safety problem. It should immediately replace all > > these tires on any Saab they've sold in the last four years or > > so, with less than maybe 20,000 miles on OEM Michelin tires. > > Sounds like you have a lot of homework to do then, doesn't it. > (all of which you should be doing first, before throwing your > accusations around, by the way). Nope. My experience gives me every justification to raise these questions; right here in this newsgroup. I hope that Saab owners like you can either affirm similar experiences, or produce information that would argue against my strong suspicions here. To the contrary, you guys are showing posting behavior I expect to see from kids in a showbiz fan gossip group: [snip] mb |
Saab Tire Complaint: Important
In article <eepmlv8pr2t2se5d9ul0d0vhuvto1l22fh@4ax.com>,
madyn@ix.netcom.com says... > On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 00:51:55 GMT, Harvey White <madyn@ix.netcom.com> > wrote: > > >On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 18:51:05 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net> > >wrote: > >> > >>Saab apparently doesn't know that. They equip all base 2000 9-3s > >>with Michelins. > > > >I happen to have nice new Michelins on my 9.5, so I am listening. > >Which Michelins were these, the normal ones, or the Plus ones, the > >specifications are different. > > Milt: you have not responded to this. What tires were on your car, > please? I'd like to know which tires you have on your car. I didn't see your post until just now. I have Michelin 195 X 60 X 15 MXV M+X tires on my 2001 Saab Base 9-3 coupe. These are the standard tires that came as original equipment with the car. If you phone a Michelin retailer and tell them you have my car; this is the tire they would try to sell you as an OEM replacement tire. The Left Front and Right Rear tires have blown out. One in March at about 4500 miles; and one this week at 10,300 miles. The car shows only 10,350 miles now. 3000 miles were leisurely 500-mile trips to nearby cities in the American Far West, where freeways are quite good: Very "easy" miles for tire wear. I usually drive less than 70 MPH because of traffic conditions. I don't think I've ever driven more than 82 MPH or so (and that's stretching it), even on my trip to Nevada. ****** > OK, well *I* don't know it. What other cause could you say was > responsible, other than faulty manufacturing? I've driven for a > while, and I have had Michelins on my cars, but not all of them.... > So what was defective, how was it defective, do you think that > this is on *all* michelin tires, and is this an old or a new > problem? Could it be related to a bad batch from a > particular run, as in the Firestone problems? ******* Informally; I now think I should consider three possible causes: Road damage, defective wheel rim design, and defective tires. ++++ ROAD DAMAGE I drive conservatively, mostly on well-maintained freeways. Neither blowout occurred after my hitting anything on the road. I believe it is possible but unlikely that driving conditions or my driving habits caused the blowout. ++++ WHEEL RIMS I have noticed twice now, that my wheel rims are apparently designed to literally shred any tire on my Saab 9-3 that loses much pressure at all. Here is what happens: 1) The tire loses minimal pressure and the sidewall begins to flex on the rim. This happens in seconds, well before a driver could possibly notice. 2) The flexing causes the tire sidewalls to flex outward. This brings the tread belt into proximity with the wheel rim edges. 3) A ring on the sidewall where the sidewall joins the tread belt comes into contact with the wheel rim edge well before the tire loses critical pressure. This creates heat and friction, and weakens the sidewall. 3) Tire pressure continues to drop. On a Saab 9-3, this almost always brings the tire tread belt to rest INSIDE the wheel rim, between the wheel rim edges. 4) With the wheel rim edges holding the tread belt, the sidewalls come into contact with the wheel rim edges at the same consistant ring of points around the tire. Consistant friction and heat at that narrow contact ring wears the tire out very quickly. But that isn't all...... 5) Saab wheel wheel rim edges are rather narrow. Once in contact with the sidewalls, these wheel rim edges literally cut through the sidewall in seconds. Blowout. I emathise; you don't need to lose much pressure. This design flaw literally turns a slow leak into a catastrophic blowout in seconds. This is a design safety issue, both for Saab, and for any tire manufacturer that sells tires for Saab. I am going to guess that if you underinflate an OEM Michelin tire on your late-model Saab 9-3 by maybe ten or fifteen percent (not much -- maybe the equivalent of a four hour freeway drive?), this underinflation will allow enough flexing to start this process. Your tire will blow out on the next 45 minute freeway drive you take, maybe one out of three times. Your guesses might vary, but they will still be very high like this. **** Go check for yourself. Measure your tire tread width and compare that to your wheel rim width. If your sidewall naturally flexes outward and your tread belt can fit inside your rims with a little flexing; you're in trouble. Owners of new Saabs need to check their tire pressure often. While the wheel rim problem probably doesn't cause blowouts, it does destroy a tire quickly and can destroy the wheel rim quickly as well. If you have a problem while driving, you literally have SECONDS to get your Saab stopped. +++++ DEFECTIVE TIRES NOTE: On my last blowout, part of my tire tread belt was wedged inside my wheel rim. The wheel rim edges had cut my tire sidewall free from my tread belt all the way around the rim. It might have taken as long as ten seconds at less than 65 MPH. I vote for defective tires. Both times, my Michelin sidewalls blew apart at less than 65 MPH. This simply should not happen in normal use, even with a high mileage tire. A tire is defective almost by definition, if the sidewall bubbles, deforms, splits or separates under normal driving conditions: This is de-facto evidence that the tire is defective. Because tires often cause accidents when they fail in this way, this becomes a safety issue. I don't know whether all michelin tires are like this or not. All I know at this point is my own experience, combined the informal reports I've gotten from about tire store service people now, at about a dozen local tire dealerships. Both Michelin and Saab are suspiciously defensive when I've contacted them about replacing my tires. When I call and tell tire dealers that I have a Saab, local tire dealers steer me away from Michelin tires. They say it's because they've seen some tire failures on Saabs, but they won't get too much more specific than that. Several Dealers also told me that they think around five Michelin tires in a hundred are failing (a very, very high number). This is 'anecdotal' evidence. I pay attention to it, though -- But again; you can't take information like this to the bank. In the United States, it would take legal examination of proprietary service records on a National scale to establish this as a product safety issue. That doesn't mean it ISN'T a product safety issue, though. > >>> Finally, 11,000 miles is not "NEW". But, IIRC, even OEM tires have > >>> warranty, so talk to the almighty Michelin to give you new tires and cover > >>> possible damages to the car IF in fact the reason was none of the above. > >> > >>No it's not. They know it, and I suspect you know it, too. > > > >OK, well *I* don't know it. What other cause could you say was > >responsible, other than faulty manufacturing? I've driven for a > >while, and I have had Michelins on my cars, but not all of them.... > >So what was defective, how was it defective, do you think that this is > >on *all* michelin tires, and is this an old or a new problem? Could > >it be related to a bad batch from a particular run, as in the > >Firestone problems? > > > You have not responded, please do so. This is a chance for you to > provide some information to the list on exactly what tires you had. > The Michelins come in two different ratings, the "normal" and the > "plus". I think that the same tires are recommended (by Michelin) > for the 9.3 and the 9.5. > > Again, which tires did you have? > > Have you managed to trace them back to a particular run of tires? A > particular plant? It is possible that the serial numbers on the rest > of your tires would be identical. I don't know enough about modern tire manufacturing, merchandising or tire labelling to have these answers quickly. My tires were made in Italy, though. I think I can determine the tire run and get some serial numbers in a day or two. > If you are dealing with a bad run, would it not be useful to know that > the replacement tires did not come from that run? The serial number > and other data might be useful in trying to determine that. Yes it would, and thank you. No one at Saab or at Michelin wants to be helpful with this information, and I'm not surprised. It has nothing to do with how "angry" I might be when I call them. This is a liability issue for them and it's obvious that *no one* wants to be involved. mb |
Saab Tire Complaint: Important
In article <eepmlv8pr2t2se5d9ul0d0vhuvto1l22fh@4ax.com>,
madyn@ix.netcom.com says... > On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 00:51:55 GMT, Harvey White <madyn@ix.netcom.com> > wrote: > > >On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 18:51:05 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net> > >wrote: > >> > >>Saab apparently doesn't know that. They equip all base 2000 9-3s > >>with Michelins. > > > >I happen to have nice new Michelins on my 9.5, so I am listening. > >Which Michelins were these, the normal ones, or the Plus ones, the > >specifications are different. > > Milt: you have not responded to this. What tires were on your car, > please? I'd like to know which tires you have on your car. I didn't see your post until just now. I have Michelin 195 X 60 X 15 MXV M+X tires on my 2001 Saab Base 9-3 coupe. These are the standard tires that came as original equipment with the car. If you phone a Michelin retailer and tell them you have my car; this is the tire they would try to sell you as an OEM replacement tire. The Left Front and Right Rear tires have blown out. One in March at about 4500 miles; and one this week at 10,300 miles. The car shows only 10,350 miles now. 3000 miles were leisurely 500-mile trips to nearby cities in the American Far West, where freeways are quite good: Very "easy" miles for tire wear. I usually drive less than 70 MPH because of traffic conditions. I don't think I've ever driven more than 82 MPH or so (and that's stretching it), even on my trip to Nevada. ****** > OK, well *I* don't know it. What other cause could you say was > responsible, other than faulty manufacturing? I've driven for a > while, and I have had Michelins on my cars, but not all of them.... > So what was defective, how was it defective, do you think that > this is on *all* michelin tires, and is this an old or a new > problem? Could it be related to a bad batch from a > particular run, as in the Firestone problems? ******* Informally; I now think I should consider three possible causes: Road damage, defective wheel rim design, and defective tires. ++++ ROAD DAMAGE I drive conservatively, mostly on well-maintained freeways. Neither blowout occurred after my hitting anything on the road. I believe it is possible but unlikely that driving conditions or my driving habits caused the blowout. ++++ WHEEL RIMS I have noticed twice now, that my wheel rims are apparently designed to literally shred any tire on my Saab 9-3 that loses much pressure at all. Here is what happens: 1) The tire loses minimal pressure and the sidewall begins to flex on the rim. This happens in seconds, well before a driver could possibly notice. 2) The flexing causes the tire sidewalls to flex outward. This brings the tread belt into proximity with the wheel rim edges. 3) A ring on the sidewall where the sidewall joins the tread belt comes into contact with the wheel rim edge well before the tire loses critical pressure. This creates heat and friction, and weakens the sidewall. 3) Tire pressure continues to drop. On a Saab 9-3, this almost always brings the tire tread belt to rest INSIDE the wheel rim, between the wheel rim edges. 4) With the wheel rim edges holding the tread belt, the sidewalls come into contact with the wheel rim edges at the same consistant ring of points around the tire. Consistant friction and heat at that narrow contact ring wears the tire out very quickly. But that isn't all...... 5) Saab wheel wheel rim edges are rather narrow. Once in contact with the sidewalls, these wheel rim edges literally cut through the sidewall in seconds. Blowout. I emathise; you don't need to lose much pressure. This design flaw literally turns a slow leak into a catastrophic blowout in seconds. This is a design safety issue, both for Saab, and for any tire manufacturer that sells tires for Saab. I am going to guess that if you underinflate an OEM Michelin tire on your late-model Saab 9-3 by maybe ten or fifteen percent (not much -- maybe the equivalent of a four hour freeway drive?), this underinflation will allow enough flexing to start this process. Your tire will blow out on the next 45 minute freeway drive you take, maybe one out of three times. Your guesses might vary, but they will still be very high like this. **** Go check for yourself. Measure your tire tread width and compare that to your wheel rim width. If your sidewall naturally flexes outward and your tread belt can fit inside your rims with a little flexing; you're in trouble. Owners of new Saabs need to check their tire pressure often. While the wheel rim problem probably doesn't cause blowouts, it does destroy a tire quickly and can destroy the wheel rim quickly as well. If you have a problem while driving, you literally have SECONDS to get your Saab stopped. +++++ DEFECTIVE TIRES NOTE: On my last blowout, part of my tire tread belt was wedged inside my wheel rim. The wheel rim edges had cut my tire sidewall free from my tread belt all the way around the rim. It might have taken as long as ten seconds at less than 65 MPH. I vote for defective tires. Both times, my Michelin sidewalls blew apart at less than 65 MPH. This simply should not happen in normal use, even with a high mileage tire. A tire is defective almost by definition, if the sidewall bubbles, deforms, splits or separates under normal driving conditions: This is de-facto evidence that the tire is defective. Because tires often cause accidents when they fail in this way, this becomes a safety issue. I don't know whether all michelin tires are like this or not. All I know at this point is my own experience, combined the informal reports I've gotten from about tire store service people now, at about a dozen local tire dealerships. Both Michelin and Saab are suspiciously defensive when I've contacted them about replacing my tires. When I call and tell tire dealers that I have a Saab, local tire dealers steer me away from Michelin tires. They say it's because they've seen some tire failures on Saabs, but they won't get too much more specific than that. Several Dealers also told me that they think around five Michelin tires in a hundred are failing (a very, very high number). This is 'anecdotal' evidence. I pay attention to it, though -- But again; you can't take information like this to the bank. In the United States, it would take legal examination of proprietary service records on a National scale to establish this as a product safety issue. That doesn't mean it ISN'T a product safety issue, though. > >>> Finally, 11,000 miles is not "NEW". But, IIRC, even OEM tires have > >>> warranty, so talk to the almighty Michelin to give you new tires and cover > >>> possible damages to the car IF in fact the reason was none of the above. > >> > >>No it's not. They know it, and I suspect you know it, too. > > > >OK, well *I* don't know it. What other cause could you say was > >responsible, other than faulty manufacturing? I've driven for a > >while, and I have had Michelins on my cars, but not all of them.... > >So what was defective, how was it defective, do you think that this is > >on *all* michelin tires, and is this an old or a new problem? Could > >it be related to a bad batch from a particular run, as in the > >Firestone problems? > > > You have not responded, please do so. This is a chance for you to > provide some information to the list on exactly what tires you had. > The Michelins come in two different ratings, the "normal" and the > "plus". I think that the same tires are recommended (by Michelin) > for the 9.3 and the 9.5. > > Again, which tires did you have? > > Have you managed to trace them back to a particular run of tires? A > particular plant? It is possible that the serial numbers on the rest > of your tires would be identical. I don't know enough about modern tire manufacturing, merchandising or tire labelling to have these answers quickly. My tires were made in Italy, though. I think I can determine the tire run and get some serial numbers in a day or two. > If you are dealing with a bad run, would it not be useful to know that > the replacement tires did not come from that run? The serial number > and other data might be useful in trying to determine that. Yes it would, and thank you. No one at Saab or at Michelin wants to be helpful with this information, and I'm not surprised. It has nothing to do with how "angry" I might be when I call them. This is a liability issue for them and it's obvious that *no one* wants to be involved. mb |
Re: Saab Complaint
In article <3F5B28AF.5664@erols.com>, nimrod@erols.com says...
> Milt: > > In case you're unaware of it by now, quite a few of the most active > participants in this news group respond to any criticism of Saab > vehicles by personal attacks on the the critic. To me, this phenomenon > is, in itself, an interesting one. It seems to indicate that Saabism is > a religion for some, and any criticism threatens their world view. For > example, saying that there's no valid reason for the unique Saab > practice of putting the ignition key between the seats is enough to > cause some people to think of burning at the stake the person who said > it. Kenneth, Thanks for your reasonable response. I think you got my points. That means the others replying here got my points, too, but just don't want to deal with it. **** My little tire problem has turned out to be a whole lot more serious than I had originally thought -- and I thought it was serious then. You should have seen that tire. Both sidewalls were separated from the tread belt, which was partially wedged into the wheel rim belly. It happened quickly, in around ten seconds. The tire service tech brought over a couple other people and the manager to look at the tire, and they all looked it over carefully for ten minutes or so. They have a good scenario for the failure. They say it's a combination of a design flaw that lets the wheel rim edges cut through the tire sidewalls, and a tire that lets its tread casing fit inside the wheel rim edges in the first place. This is definitely eyebrow-raising territory. This is also important for Toyota and Honda drivers as well. Their cars could indeed have the same problems that I have experienced in my Saab. ****** The broader issue, is whether Saab is going to institute design and QA procedures that catch these problems before they develop; and then institute a customer handling process that keeps owners driving safely and satisfied with our cars. I love Saabs, but what I'm experiencing is just not acceptable. The silly troll responses I've mostly fielded here this week just serves to illustrate the problem that Saab has in general: Denying the issue and attempting to insult the victim is not dealing with the problem. My responses also demonstrate why Honda and Toyota are winning the US market. People responding from the honda and toyota newsgroups are not delightful, but they are reasonable -- and so is the way those companies are handling design flaws and customer issues. mb > > I bought my 1996 Saab 900SE three years ago, after several vacations in > Europe during which I rented four-door hatchbacks that seemed far more > suited to my present lifestyle than the large American V-8s that I had > owned up to then. The Saab has been a serious disappointment to me, > because of the repeated need for expensive repairs, and because of > several obvious design flaws that I did not notice when I test drove > it. I have had no problems in the tire department, although I have > replaced the original Michelin Pilot tires by Yokohamas, in order to get > a less harsh ride. > > The deficiencies of my Saab are underlined for me again because I have > just returned from a vacation in France during which I rented a Citroen > C-5. This car was far more comfortable, roomy, and quiet-running than > my 900SE, which I expect to trade in before too long. > > Of course, my Saab is far from new, and was not new when I bought it. > Perhaps, under the GM management, the problems have been fixed in the > current Saab models. But one disadvantage about habitually brushing off > valid criticism -- as some in this news group do -- is that problems > don't get fixed. However, I seriously doubt whether Saab executives > monitor this news group in search of improvements they can make. So the > knee-jerk reactions here to any criticisms of Saabs may not matter. > > Your point was a valid one. Auto manufacturers DO have some > responsibility for the tires fitted to their cars when they leave the > factory. You'll just have to give your attackers here a fool's > pardon. > > > > > milt brewster wrote: > > > > In article <bjdbm5$i0vaf$1@ID-152899.news.uni-berlin.de>, > > grunff@ixxa.com says... > > > > > milt brewster wrote: > > > > > > > Posters here newsgroup ought to report some other helpful advice > > > > like this. > > > > > > While it's clear that you're a moron, and no amount of > > > explaining will achieve anything, I'll try again ('cause I'm > > > nice like that). > > > > I have yet to call anyone a name here. > > > > All I did, was to post a complaint about a serious problem I had > > with my nearly-new Saab. > > > > Your comments below are really not very helpful. While you > > probably didn't intend them to be; I propose to you, that I > > actually asked some pretty good basic questions. People like you > > would be very helpful in a group like this, if you provided > > useful answers to questions like this in the future -- instead of > > the vague stuff I see below here: > > > > > > *) Which tire brands work best on Saabs? > > > > > > A car is a car and a tyre is a tyre. There are no tyres that > > > work best with particular cars (with the exception of special > > > cases, such as offroading, track work etc.). If you knew even > > > the basics of car suspension, this would be obvious. > > > > > > > > > > *) Which tire brands do you stay away from? > > > > > > There certainly are bad brands, few people would say that > > > Michelin are one of. This has nothing to do with Saab. > > > > > > > > > > *) How much should a new tire cost for a Saab? > > > > > > What make/type? > > > > > > > > > > My dealer charged me $275 for a replacement Michelin. > > > > > > Just one?? > > > > Yes. Just one. > > > > See part of my problem? > > > > > > *) What about wheel rims, suspension systems and the like? > > > > *) As a Saab owner, what simple checks do you perform > > > > on your tires and suspension system, and how often? > > > > > > I crawl around under my cars once a month, carefully inspecting > > > all suspension components and tyres for any signs of damage. > > > > So did I. > > > > What do you look for specifically? How do you recognize it? How > > do you fix what you find? On a new car, when do you decide to > > take your problem to a garage instead of handling the problem > > yourself? > > > > > > In fact; this group should maintain a FAQ with simple, > > > > practical information like this, for Saab owners and for people > > > > looking to buy Saabs. > > > > > > Well, thank you very much for telling us exactly what we should > > > do, that's very kind of you - especially given that you've > > > posted to this group about 5 times in the last 3 years. > > > > What does my posting frequency have to do with the problem I > > described? A problem is a problem. It is valid, or it isn't. It > > affects other Saab owners, or it doesn't. > > > > NOTE: I've posted here using several different accounts and read > > the group regularly. > > > > Calling me names doesn't make it go away. > > > > Calling me names also won't protect you from having the same > > problems I had, if you also own a Saab. > > > > > > > > > As fat as our owners' manuals are; Saab > > > > still doesn't tell us enough about our cars. > > > > > > I get very little of my information directly from Saab. What > > > exactly do you expect them to tell us? > > > > Quibble, quibble. You don't expect an answer with any detail, so > > I won't offer one -- but car ownership has changed over the last > > ten and twenty years. What we need to do; what we can do; and > > what we should look out for. > > > > Some newsgroup readers are new to Saab; some of us are old hands; > > some of us are thinking about replacing an older car with a new > > Saab. If you are knowledgeable and care to help out in a > > newsgroup, then you already know why some of these basic > > questions are useful and helpful. > > > > On the other hand, if you are just a troll-enthusiast, then you > > will pretty much post the kind of answers I'm seeing in this > > thread --- where posters have called me a moron, or arrogant, or > > a fool, just because they felt somehow personally insulted or > > threatened that I had a significant problem with my Saab that I > > shouldn't have had, and described it here. > > > > **** > > > > In the meantime, I've had TWO FREEWAY BLOWOUTS on my new Saab in > > six months, under light use, and with better than normal care. > > Saab has been AWOL and my dealer has been frankly awful. Calling > > me names really doesn't address the problem I've reported here. > > > > mb > |
Re: Saab Complaint
In article <3F5B28AF.5664@erols.com>, nimrod@erols.com says...
> Milt: > > In case you're unaware of it by now, quite a few of the most active > participants in this news group respond to any criticism of Saab > vehicles by personal attacks on the the critic. To me, this phenomenon > is, in itself, an interesting one. It seems to indicate that Saabism is > a religion for some, and any criticism threatens their world view. For > example, saying that there's no valid reason for the unique Saab > practice of putting the ignition key between the seats is enough to > cause some people to think of burning at the stake the person who said > it. Kenneth, Thanks for your reasonable response. I think you got my points. That means the others replying here got my points, too, but just don't want to deal with it. **** My little tire problem has turned out to be a whole lot more serious than I had originally thought -- and I thought it was serious then. You should have seen that tire. Both sidewalls were separated from the tread belt, which was partially wedged into the wheel rim belly. It happened quickly, in around ten seconds. The tire service tech brought over a couple other people and the manager to look at the tire, and they all looked it over carefully for ten minutes or so. They have a good scenario for the failure. They say it's a combination of a design flaw that lets the wheel rim edges cut through the tire sidewalls, and a tire that lets its tread casing fit inside the wheel rim edges in the first place. This is definitely eyebrow-raising territory. This is also important for Toyota and Honda drivers as well. Their cars could indeed have the same problems that I have experienced in my Saab. ****** The broader issue, is whether Saab is going to institute design and QA procedures that catch these problems before they develop; and then institute a customer handling process that keeps owners driving safely and satisfied with our cars. I love Saabs, but what I'm experiencing is just not acceptable. The silly troll responses I've mostly fielded here this week just serves to illustrate the problem that Saab has in general: Denying the issue and attempting to insult the victim is not dealing with the problem. My responses also demonstrate why Honda and Toyota are winning the US market. People responding from the honda and toyota newsgroups are not delightful, but they are reasonable -- and so is the way those companies are handling design flaws and customer issues. mb > > I bought my 1996 Saab 900SE three years ago, after several vacations in > Europe during which I rented four-door hatchbacks that seemed far more > suited to my present lifestyle than the large American V-8s that I had > owned up to then. The Saab has been a serious disappointment to me, > because of the repeated need for expensive repairs, and because of > several obvious design flaws that I did not notice when I test drove > it. I have had no problems in the tire department, although I have > replaced the original Michelin Pilot tires by Yokohamas, in order to get > a less harsh ride. > > The deficiencies of my Saab are underlined for me again because I have > just returned from a vacation in France during which I rented a Citroen > C-5. This car was far more comfortable, roomy, and quiet-running than > my 900SE, which I expect to trade in before too long. > > Of course, my Saab is far from new, and was not new when I bought it. > Perhaps, under the GM management, the problems have been fixed in the > current Saab models. But one disadvantage about habitually brushing off > valid criticism -- as some in this news group do -- is that problems > don't get fixed. However, I seriously doubt whether Saab executives > monitor this news group in search of improvements they can make. So the > knee-jerk reactions here to any criticisms of Saabs may not matter. > > Your point was a valid one. Auto manufacturers DO have some > responsibility for the tires fitted to their cars when they leave the > factory. You'll just have to give your attackers here a fool's > pardon. > > > > > milt brewster wrote: > > > > In article <bjdbm5$i0vaf$1@ID-152899.news.uni-berlin.de>, > > grunff@ixxa.com says... > > > > > milt brewster wrote: > > > > > > > Posters here newsgroup ought to report some other helpful advice > > > > like this. > > > > > > While it's clear that you're a moron, and no amount of > > > explaining will achieve anything, I'll try again ('cause I'm > > > nice like that). > > > > I have yet to call anyone a name here. > > > > All I did, was to post a complaint about a serious problem I had > > with my nearly-new Saab. > > > > Your comments below are really not very helpful. While you > > probably didn't intend them to be; I propose to you, that I > > actually asked some pretty good basic questions. People like you > > would be very helpful in a group like this, if you provided > > useful answers to questions like this in the future -- instead of > > the vague stuff I see below here: > > > > > > *) Which tire brands work best on Saabs? > > > > > > A car is a car and a tyre is a tyre. There are no tyres that > > > work best with particular cars (with the exception of special > > > cases, such as offroading, track work etc.). If you knew even > > > the basics of car suspension, this would be obvious. > > > > > > > > > > *) Which tire brands do you stay away from? > > > > > > There certainly are bad brands, few people would say that > > > Michelin are one of. This has nothing to do with Saab. > > > > > > > > > > *) How much should a new tire cost for a Saab? > > > > > > What make/type? > > > > > > > > > > My dealer charged me $275 for a replacement Michelin. > > > > > > Just one?? > > > > Yes. Just one. > > > > See part of my problem? > > > > > > *) What about wheel rims, suspension systems and the like? > > > > *) As a Saab owner, what simple checks do you perform > > > > on your tires and suspension system, and how often? > > > > > > I crawl around under my cars once a month, carefully inspecting > > > all suspension components and tyres for any signs of damage. > > > > So did I. > > > > What do you look for specifically? How do you recognize it? How > > do you fix what you find? On a new car, when do you decide to > > take your problem to a garage instead of handling the problem > > yourself? > > > > > > In fact; this group should maintain a FAQ with simple, > > > > practical information like this, for Saab owners and for people > > > > looking to buy Saabs. > > > > > > Well, thank you very much for telling us exactly what we should > > > do, that's very kind of you - especially given that you've > > > posted to this group about 5 times in the last 3 years. > > > > What does my posting frequency have to do with the problem I > > described? A problem is a problem. It is valid, or it isn't. It > > affects other Saab owners, or it doesn't. > > > > NOTE: I've posted here using several different accounts and read > > the group regularly. > > > > Calling me names doesn't make it go away. > > > > Calling me names also won't protect you from having the same > > problems I had, if you also own a Saab. > > > > > > > > > As fat as our owners' manuals are; Saab > > > > still doesn't tell us enough about our cars. > > > > > > I get very little of my information directly from Saab. What > > > exactly do you expect them to tell us? > > > > Quibble, quibble. You don't expect an answer with any detail, so > > I won't offer one -- but car ownership has changed over the last > > ten and twenty years. What we need to do; what we can do; and > > what we should look out for. > > > > Some newsgroup readers are new to Saab; some of us are old hands; > > some of us are thinking about replacing an older car with a new > > Saab. If you are knowledgeable and care to help out in a > > newsgroup, then you already know why some of these basic > > questions are useful and helpful. > > > > On the other hand, if you are just a troll-enthusiast, then you > > will pretty much post the kind of answers I'm seeing in this > > thread --- where posters have called me a moron, or arrogant, or > > a fool, just because they felt somehow personally insulted or > > threatened that I had a significant problem with my Saab that I > > shouldn't have had, and described it here. > > > > **** > > > > In the meantime, I've had TWO FREEWAY BLOWOUTS on my new Saab in > > six months, under light use, and with better than normal care. > > Saab has been AWOL and my dealer has been frankly awful. Calling > > me names really doesn't address the problem I've reported here. > > > > mb > |
Re: Saab Complaint
In article <BB80BCBB.9588%pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk>,
pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk says... > in article MPG.19c3c910fd1bd7c1989dba@news.sonic.net, milt brewster at > milt73@sonic.net wrote on 06/09/2003 19:51: > > > In article <BB7F542C.9514%pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk>, > > pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk says... > > > >> in article MPG.19c2951e57a2b84989db2@news.sonic.net, milt brewster at > >> milt73@sonic.net wrote on 05/09/2003 21:42: > >> > >>> Less than 11,000 miles on a 2000 9-3 coupe. > >>> > >>> SECOND catastrophic freeway blowout in six months. Both quick > >>> and dangerous. > >>> > >>> NEW Michelin tires have/had 11,000 miles on them. The first > >>> blowout occurred at only 5500 miles. The Dealer has refused to > >>> deal with the issue. > >> > >> Tyres are tyres. What does this have to do with Saab? If you're not happy > >> with Michelin, then buy another brand. I have Michelins on the front and > >> Avons (my old front set) on the rear. They seem fine. > > > > Good for you. I hope your luck continues. Nobody should have two > > blowouts on the freeway in six months, driving a new car. Not > > even the people in this thread who have been frankly insulting. > > Agreed, but I think you've been an unwitting victim of plain bad luck. > > > Sometimes tires are not made well. Tire failures are always a > > safety issue, and American Tire Manufacturers are supposed to > > recall tire batches that do not meet manufacturing standards. > > > > From calling around yesterday, I find that around five Michelins > > are experiencing blowouts out of a hundred on new small cars -- > > this is very high, and Michelin should recall these tires. Saab > > owners should know that Michelins are failing catastrophically in > > high numbers like this. Because it is a product safety hazard, > > the Saab Company (GM) should replace these tires. > > On what do you base this statement? Is there some un/official tyre watchdog > that holds some stats on this kind of thing? I'm interested. Actually in the US, there is supposed to be government oversight of the design, manufacture, marketing and servicing of tires. They are considered to be a critical safety product, and tire manufacturers are supposed to be held to a higher quality standard than might be reasonable for other less critical products. My phone calls to tire dealers indicate a lot, but prove little. They DO give me reason to report a one-in-twenty failure rate for my Michelin tires, and to then ask the questions I'm asking. > > >> Were yours at the correct pressure? When did you last check the pressures? > >> It's one of those things, along with fluids, that should be checked on a > >> regular basis to ensure that the car is running as per the manufacturer's > >> intention and to keep you safe. > > > I am very careful with my tires and made no obvious errors like > > this. I hit no potholes. This was not "road damage," as US Tire > > mfgrs like to claim. > > >> If you've had two blow-outs so far, I'd suggest you're running them more > >> than a little over-pressure. > > > Good guess, but nope. I check my tires carefully and had no > > reason to suspect this was going to happen. > > Okay, that's good. My apologies if you read my comment as an aspersion. > > >>> Today I would trade this Saab straight across for a comparable > >>> Honda Civic ... > >> > >> Is there a comparable Honda Civic? > > > No, and that's my point here. The Honda Civic sells for 60% of > > the cost of a 9-3 Saab, yet the Civic has a better safety and > > mechanical record -- and certainly has better customer care. > > While I like to drive a car that's fun, I MUST drive a car that's > > safe and reliable. > > Oh, you mean "if" there was ... No. I mean that even with its flaws and its obvious price differential, Honda Civics seem to be built to higher quality standards, and are safer to drive, less expensive to maintain, last as long, and have better customer care than Saabs do, and those points have become a critical issues for me this week. > > Saab should be purple with embarrassment that a car like the > > Honda Civic can outperform it. > > In what way? Style? Comfort? Speed? MPG? 0-60? Mileage? Tyre choice? Balance of reliability, maintenance costs, product safety, customer service, and being fun to drive. Saab is not winning the sales battle in the US, partly because it comes up short in these areas compared to even inexpensive Japanese cars like Toyota corollas and Honda civics. Being a Saab owner, I regret having to say this. > > Do you want to play top trumps, or make a point? > > > And I meant what I said: If somebody made it easy for me, I'd > > trade my Saab for a comparable Japanese car this week. I need a > > car that is safe and reliable. > > ... and presumably if you traded for, say, a Toyota Corolla, which came with > Michelin tyres (as my father-in-law's did) you'd have the tyres changed? I sure would this week. > > The tyres you run on your car is your own responsibility. If you saw the > tyres Saab put on their cars as sub-standard, you should've changed them > straight away. Lucky for me, the only new cars I've bought have been Fiats, > who use Pirellis :) > > If your point was to slander Michelin, then I think you've made that point. > > Perhaps if you just paid out for a new set of tyres (all 4), you'd feel > better about your Saab. You have said that you used to be a Saab fanatic, so > why let a set of rubber spoil that? > > Paul > Some good points, some not; Paul. Here in the US, we don't have much of a tire choice when we take delivery on a new car: We pretty much have to take what the Manufacturer insists they will provide. We have no chance to research, choose, inspect and verify the tires that come on our new cars. Taken in general, American new car buyers have to trust the legal representations and Warrantees we are handed at the dealership when we take delivery of our new cars. Certainly in general, Saab can not expect owners to throw away a new set of tires on a brand new car on the first day, particularly when we don't know whether it will void part of our Warrantees and probably don't know much about the quality of the OEM tires anyway. New buyers must legally rely on the Saab's promise that our new car is designed well and safe to drive as they have equipped it. I am finding that my Saab wasn't careful; and that Saab won't stand behind the problem that has resulted. The fact remains that I had a problem with my Saab that I shouldn't have had. Saab and Michelin need to be held to account for that. You can't call it "slander," because I am fairly describing events that really did happen to me. Besides, the word you wanted was "libel" in the United States. Even at that, my comments come under the heading of "fair comment," which means I get to express my opinion about Saab and Michelin as loudly as I want to. mb |
Re: Saab Complaint
In article <BB80BCBB.9588%pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk>,
pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk says... > in article MPG.19c3c910fd1bd7c1989dba@news.sonic.net, milt brewster at > milt73@sonic.net wrote on 06/09/2003 19:51: > > > In article <BB7F542C.9514%pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk>, > > pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk says... > > > >> in article MPG.19c2951e57a2b84989db2@news.sonic.net, milt brewster at > >> milt73@sonic.net wrote on 05/09/2003 21:42: > >> > >>> Less than 11,000 miles on a 2000 9-3 coupe. > >>> > >>> SECOND catastrophic freeway blowout in six months. Both quick > >>> and dangerous. > >>> > >>> NEW Michelin tires have/had 11,000 miles on them. The first > >>> blowout occurred at only 5500 miles. The Dealer has refused to > >>> deal with the issue. > >> > >> Tyres are tyres. What does this have to do with Saab? If you're not happy > >> with Michelin, then buy another brand. I have Michelins on the front and > >> Avons (my old front set) on the rear. They seem fine. > > > > Good for you. I hope your luck continues. Nobody should have two > > blowouts on the freeway in six months, driving a new car. Not > > even the people in this thread who have been frankly insulting. > > Agreed, but I think you've been an unwitting victim of plain bad luck. > > > Sometimes tires are not made well. Tire failures are always a > > safety issue, and American Tire Manufacturers are supposed to > > recall tire batches that do not meet manufacturing standards. > > > > From calling around yesterday, I find that around five Michelins > > are experiencing blowouts out of a hundred on new small cars -- > > this is very high, and Michelin should recall these tires. Saab > > owners should know that Michelins are failing catastrophically in > > high numbers like this. Because it is a product safety hazard, > > the Saab Company (GM) should replace these tires. > > On what do you base this statement? Is there some un/official tyre watchdog > that holds some stats on this kind of thing? I'm interested. Actually in the US, there is supposed to be government oversight of the design, manufacture, marketing and servicing of tires. They are considered to be a critical safety product, and tire manufacturers are supposed to be held to a higher quality standard than might be reasonable for other less critical products. My phone calls to tire dealers indicate a lot, but prove little. They DO give me reason to report a one-in-twenty failure rate for my Michelin tires, and to then ask the questions I'm asking. > > >> Were yours at the correct pressure? When did you last check the pressures? > >> It's one of those things, along with fluids, that should be checked on a > >> regular basis to ensure that the car is running as per the manufacturer's > >> intention and to keep you safe. > > > I am very careful with my tires and made no obvious errors like > > this. I hit no potholes. This was not "road damage," as US Tire > > mfgrs like to claim. > > >> If you've had two blow-outs so far, I'd suggest you're running them more > >> than a little over-pressure. > > > Good guess, but nope. I check my tires carefully and had no > > reason to suspect this was going to happen. > > Okay, that's good. My apologies if you read my comment as an aspersion. > > >>> Today I would trade this Saab straight across for a comparable > >>> Honda Civic ... > >> > >> Is there a comparable Honda Civic? > > > No, and that's my point here. The Honda Civic sells for 60% of > > the cost of a 9-3 Saab, yet the Civic has a better safety and > > mechanical record -- and certainly has better customer care. > > While I like to drive a car that's fun, I MUST drive a car that's > > safe and reliable. > > Oh, you mean "if" there was ... No. I mean that even with its flaws and its obvious price differential, Honda Civics seem to be built to higher quality standards, and are safer to drive, less expensive to maintain, last as long, and have better customer care than Saabs do, and those points have become a critical issues for me this week. > > Saab should be purple with embarrassment that a car like the > > Honda Civic can outperform it. > > In what way? Style? Comfort? Speed? MPG? 0-60? Mileage? Tyre choice? Balance of reliability, maintenance costs, product safety, customer service, and being fun to drive. Saab is not winning the sales battle in the US, partly because it comes up short in these areas compared to even inexpensive Japanese cars like Toyota corollas and Honda civics. Being a Saab owner, I regret having to say this. > > Do you want to play top trumps, or make a point? > > > And I meant what I said: If somebody made it easy for me, I'd > > trade my Saab for a comparable Japanese car this week. I need a > > car that is safe and reliable. > > ... and presumably if you traded for, say, a Toyota Corolla, which came with > Michelin tyres (as my father-in-law's did) you'd have the tyres changed? I sure would this week. > > The tyres you run on your car is your own responsibility. If you saw the > tyres Saab put on their cars as sub-standard, you should've changed them > straight away. Lucky for me, the only new cars I've bought have been Fiats, > who use Pirellis :) > > If your point was to slander Michelin, then I think you've made that point. > > Perhaps if you just paid out for a new set of tyres (all 4), you'd feel > better about your Saab. You have said that you used to be a Saab fanatic, so > why let a set of rubber spoil that? > > Paul > Some good points, some not; Paul. Here in the US, we don't have much of a tire choice when we take delivery on a new car: We pretty much have to take what the Manufacturer insists they will provide. We have no chance to research, choose, inspect and verify the tires that come on our new cars. Taken in general, American new car buyers have to trust the legal representations and Warrantees we are handed at the dealership when we take delivery of our new cars. Certainly in general, Saab can not expect owners to throw away a new set of tires on a brand new car on the first day, particularly when we don't know whether it will void part of our Warrantees and probably don't know much about the quality of the OEM tires anyway. New buyers must legally rely on the Saab's promise that our new car is designed well and safe to drive as they have equipped it. I am finding that my Saab wasn't careful; and that Saab won't stand behind the problem that has resulted. The fact remains that I had a problem with my Saab that I shouldn't have had. Saab and Michelin need to be held to account for that. You can't call it "slander," because I am fairly describing events that really did happen to me. Besides, the word you wanted was "libel" in the United States. Even at that, my comments come under the heading of "fair comment," which means I get to express my opinion about Saab and Michelin as loudly as I want to. mb |
Re: Saab Complaint
On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 23:42:03 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net> wrote:
> In article <bjffe2$ijn6q$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>, > davehinz@spamcop.net says... >> >> Maybe, but disruptive sorts seem to enjoy doing so, and oddly enough, >> the selection of the groups is always consistant. Your language, choice >> of crossposted (offtopic) groups, and tone are consistant with the >> pattern. It's also odd, then, that you've re-added the other groups >> to the followups, even though someone else had taken them out. > > A troll posts and runs. I am not running. Followups fixed *again*. I don't see the word "troll" in my post, I see "flame war". > I am glad to clear up your mistaken impressions. My impressions are, if anything, being reinforced. > I believe that I am in fact being trolled in this thread by > several of you regulars. That's OK: I know how to use trolls in > general to make my point in a newsgroup. It's your choice: > You can either look good by addressing the problem; or you can > look childish by trolling a "newbie" to your newsgroup. People > finding these posts on groups.google.com will be able to tell the > difference years and years from now. Yes, they will. I'm not sure that that'll turn out the way you think, but go ahead and think whatever you want. > I selected the newsgroups I wanted to post to. It was and is my > selection to make. It is rude for you or anyone else to remove > them. Bullshit. Bull ing . It is *MY* choice what groups to post to. If I choose not to post a reply to your drivel across a dozen and a half unrelated groups, that is *MY* choice. > I posted to toyota and honda auto groups for two reasons: > > 1) Toyotas and Hondas are Saab's major compeditors in the US. No they're not. Entirely differnet demographics. > Posters to those groups might very well have constructive new > perspectives to add, regarding the problems I am having with my > Saab. Yeah, you got two blowouts. Just like you would have with a toyota or a honda. Bad luck, get over it. >> Two tires on your car blew out. Do you understand that two tires does >> not a statistical trend make? Hello? this is kind of a central point, and you ignore it. You are expanding *your* experience and assuming we all share it. We do not. >> Not arguing that, although I wonder what a non-catastrophic blowout >> would be. > > This is quibbling, but I'll answer your one-liner anyway. > > "catastrophic" happens to be a term often used in Court -- it > describes a quick (sometimes explosive) tire failure that > destroys the tire and also puts the car and its occupants at > risk. It can also imply that the failed tire was defective in > some way. So you *have* done some homework, it seems. Have you checked into the links that Laura provided for you? >> Perhaps, I wasn't there. If you came in frothing at the mouth as you did >> here, I can see why they didn't wnat to bend over backwards to help you. > > 1) I handled myself quite well at the dealer. In sharp contrast to your behavior here... > Saab engineers should have anticipated this behavior upon tire > failure, and designed their wheelrims to at least minimize it. You a lawyer or something? (not intended as a compliment, by the way). >> No. You have provided no evidence of this, and you continue to evade >> the question about wheel alignment. Third request, have you had that >> checked? > > The rear tire blew. I was assured that on a Saab, the alignment > would not be affected. > But yes, I've had my alignment checked anyway: Two months ago, > and again yesterday. Absolutely no change. It's just fine. By whom? > I am certainly claiming that these Michelins are faulty, based on > my experience with them. Based on what? A statistical anomaly? > Two blowouts in six months on nearly new OEM tires is a very good > reason for an owner to register a complaint with his car > manufacturer. Fine, and you apparently did that and they found your claims to be baseless. Next? > A good company would replace those tires for free if they have > some service records of other owners making the same complaints: > This is Freshman QA Engineering. It's also Freshmen Marketing > Management. Only if they value you as a customer. When my tranny went, many thousand miles out of warranty, Saab paid for it anyway. If they didn't want to take care of your tires, maybe, just maybe, it isn't their problem. > [snip] Is that the part where I ask you inconvenient things about your accusing Saab of "criminal" behavior? |
Re: Saab Complaint
On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 23:42:03 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net> wrote:
> In article <bjffe2$ijn6q$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>, > davehinz@spamcop.net says... >> >> Maybe, but disruptive sorts seem to enjoy doing so, and oddly enough, >> the selection of the groups is always consistant. Your language, choice >> of crossposted (offtopic) groups, and tone are consistant with the >> pattern. It's also odd, then, that you've re-added the other groups >> to the followups, even though someone else had taken them out. > > A troll posts and runs. I am not running. Followups fixed *again*. I don't see the word "troll" in my post, I see "flame war". > I am glad to clear up your mistaken impressions. My impressions are, if anything, being reinforced. > I believe that I am in fact being trolled in this thread by > several of you regulars. That's OK: I know how to use trolls in > general to make my point in a newsgroup. It's your choice: > You can either look good by addressing the problem; or you can > look childish by trolling a "newbie" to your newsgroup. People > finding these posts on groups.google.com will be able to tell the > difference years and years from now. Yes, they will. I'm not sure that that'll turn out the way you think, but go ahead and think whatever you want. > I selected the newsgroups I wanted to post to. It was and is my > selection to make. It is rude for you or anyone else to remove > them. Bullshit. Bull ing . It is *MY* choice what groups to post to. If I choose not to post a reply to your drivel across a dozen and a half unrelated groups, that is *MY* choice. > I posted to toyota and honda auto groups for two reasons: > > 1) Toyotas and Hondas are Saab's major compeditors in the US. No they're not. Entirely differnet demographics. > Posters to those groups might very well have constructive new > perspectives to add, regarding the problems I am having with my > Saab. Yeah, you got two blowouts. Just like you would have with a toyota or a honda. Bad luck, get over it. >> Two tires on your car blew out. Do you understand that two tires does >> not a statistical trend make? Hello? this is kind of a central point, and you ignore it. You are expanding *your* experience and assuming we all share it. We do not. >> Not arguing that, although I wonder what a non-catastrophic blowout >> would be. > > This is quibbling, but I'll answer your one-liner anyway. > > "catastrophic" happens to be a term often used in Court -- it > describes a quick (sometimes explosive) tire failure that > destroys the tire and also puts the car and its occupants at > risk. It can also imply that the failed tire was defective in > some way. So you *have* done some homework, it seems. Have you checked into the links that Laura provided for you? >> Perhaps, I wasn't there. If you came in frothing at the mouth as you did >> here, I can see why they didn't wnat to bend over backwards to help you. > > 1) I handled myself quite well at the dealer. In sharp contrast to your behavior here... > Saab engineers should have anticipated this behavior upon tire > failure, and designed their wheelrims to at least minimize it. You a lawyer or something? (not intended as a compliment, by the way). >> No. You have provided no evidence of this, and you continue to evade >> the question about wheel alignment. Third request, have you had that >> checked? > > The rear tire blew. I was assured that on a Saab, the alignment > would not be affected. > But yes, I've had my alignment checked anyway: Two months ago, > and again yesterday. Absolutely no change. It's just fine. By whom? > I am certainly claiming that these Michelins are faulty, based on > my experience with them. Based on what? A statistical anomaly? > Two blowouts in six months on nearly new OEM tires is a very good > reason for an owner to register a complaint with his car > manufacturer. Fine, and you apparently did that and they found your claims to be baseless. Next? > A good company would replace those tires for free if they have > some service records of other owners making the same complaints: > This is Freshman QA Engineering. It's also Freshmen Marketing > Management. Only if they value you as a customer. When my tranny went, many thousand miles out of warranty, Saab paid for it anyway. If they didn't want to take care of your tires, maybe, just maybe, it isn't their problem. > [snip] Is that the part where I ask you inconvenient things about your accusing Saab of "criminal" behavior? |
Re: Saab Complaint
I think that when you use a word like "criminal" and assert that Saab is
aware of a dangerous situation and go on accuse of a cover-up akin to the Ford Explorer/Bridgestone example, you are drawing an extremely thin line between what is "libel" and what is "fair comment." After spending a good 20 minutes reading all of these posts (and that's 20 minutes I will NEVER GET BACK), I think I might find it funny if MB and Saab ended up in litigation. It would at least add to entertainment value. That's not meant to offend MB, who obviously has, in his mind, a very real issue he's dealing with. RiCK > > You can't call it "slander," because I am fairly describing > events that really did happen to me. Besides, the word you > wanted was "libel" in the United States. Even at that, my > comments come under the heading of "fair comment," which means I > get to express my opinion about Saab and Michelin as loudly as I > want to. > > > mb > |
Re: Saab Complaint
I think that when you use a word like "criminal" and assert that Saab is
aware of a dangerous situation and go on accuse of a cover-up akin to the Ford Explorer/Bridgestone example, you are drawing an extremely thin line between what is "libel" and what is "fair comment." After spending a good 20 minutes reading all of these posts (and that's 20 minutes I will NEVER GET BACK), I think I might find it funny if MB and Saab ended up in litigation. It would at least add to entertainment value. That's not meant to offend MB, who obviously has, in his mind, a very real issue he's dealing with. RiCK > > You can't call it "slander," because I am fairly describing > events that really did happen to me. Besides, the word you > wanted was "libel" in the United States. Even at that, my > comments come under the heading of "fair comment," which means I > get to express my opinion about Saab and Michelin as loudly as I > want to. > > > mb > |
Re: Saab Complaint
I think that when you use a word like "criminal" and assert that Saab is aware of a dangerous situation and go on accuse of a cover-up akin to the Ford Explorer/Bridgestone example, you are drawing an extremely thin line between what is "libel" and what is "fair comment." After spending a good 20 minutes reading all of these posts (and that's 20 minutes I will NEVER GET BACK), I think I might find it funny if MB and Saab ended up in litigation. It would at least add to entertainment value. That's not meant to offend MB, who obviously has, in his mind, a very real issue he's dealing with. RiCK > > You can't call it "slander," because I am fairly describing > events that really did happen to me. Besides, the word you > wanted was "libel" in the United States. Even at that, my > comments come under the heading of "fair comment," which means I > get to express my opinion about Saab and Michelin as loudly as I > want to. > > > mb > |
Re: Saab Complaint
I think that when you use a word like "criminal" and assert that Saab is aware of a dangerous situation and go on accuse of a cover-up akin to the Ford Explorer/Bridgestone example, you are drawing an extremely thin line between what is "libel" and what is "fair comment." After spending a good 20 minutes reading all of these posts (and that's 20 minutes I will NEVER GET BACK), I think I might find it funny if MB and Saab ended up in litigation. It would at least add to entertainment value. That's not meant to offend MB, who obviously has, in his mind, a very real issue he's dealing with. RiCK > > You can't call it "slander," because I am fairly describing > events that really did happen to me. Besides, the word you > wanted was "libel" in the United States. Even at that, my > comments come under the heading of "fair comment," which means I > get to express my opinion about Saab and Michelin as loudly as I > want to. > > > mb > |
Re: Saab Complaint
Mark A wrote: > > [snipped] Stop re-posting my posts! |
Re: Saab Complaint
Mark A wrote: > > [snipped] Stop re-posting my posts! |
Re: Saab Complaint
"Johannes H Andersen" <johs@sizefitter.com> wrote in message
news:3F5C860F.D98DCA8A@sizefitter.com... > > > Mark A wrote: > > > > [snipped] > > Stop re-posting my posts! Stop posting in the Toyota newsgroup. |
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