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Some ruminations on antifreeze
It doesn't take much of a USENET search to see all the
badmouthing about Peak antifreeze, I guess mainly because the brand contains phospate. People say this and that, and repeat what others say without much thought. I have visited the Peak site and they discuss these issues, and what they say makes sense to me at least. People blast Peak because of the phosphates, then turn right around and recommend distilled water for cooling sytems (which apparently pretty much removes any negative effect from the phospates). The Peak site claims that some European car makers say to avoid such antifreezes simply because Europe generally has much harder water than the U.S....makes sense to me. Read it for yourself: http://www.peakantifreeze.com/tech/tech_b.html Maybe I'm naive, but how could they legally make the claims on this page (http://www.peakantifreeze.com/peakanti.html) about their standard product if it weren't fact anyway? And yes, I changed the coolant in my German car today, and used 50/50 Prestone and distilled water, but have used Peak for years in my cars with no problems. -- Cliff |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
On 12 Jan 2004 16:41:48 -0800, clifffreeling@yahoo.com (Cliff
Freeling) wrote: >Read it for yourself: http://www.peakantifreeze.com/tech/tech_b.html > >Maybe I'm naive, but how could they legally make the claims on this >page (http://www.peakantifreeze.com/peakanti.html) about their >standard product if it weren't fact anyway? > >And yes, I changed the coolant in my German car today, and used >50/50 Prestone and distilled water, but have used Peak for years in >my cars with no problems. Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are screwing up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. Worse than the phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice they don't say much about silicates on the Peak site. European cars need low silicate as well as low phosphate. It's incredible that you buy that "low mineral content in the USA vs. Europe" crap from Peak. Water is different all across the USA, as it is in Europe. You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from Valvoline for about $9/gallon. Why screw around challenging what the engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right for $5/year ? http://www.valvoline.com/pages/produ...asp?product=10 |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
On 12 Jan 2004 16:41:48 -0800, clifffreeling@yahoo.com (Cliff
Freeling) wrote: >Read it for yourself: http://www.peakantifreeze.com/tech/tech_b.html > >Maybe I'm naive, but how could they legally make the claims on this >page (http://www.peakantifreeze.com/peakanti.html) about their >standard product if it weren't fact anyway? > >And yes, I changed the coolant in my German car today, and used >50/50 Prestone and distilled water, but have used Peak for years in >my cars with no problems. Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are screwing up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. Worse than the phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice they don't say much about silicates on the Peak site. European cars need low silicate as well as low phosphate. It's incredible that you buy that "low mineral content in the USA vs. Europe" crap from Peak. Water is different all across the USA, as it is in Europe. You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from Valvoline for about $9/gallon. Why screw around challenging what the engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right for $5/year ? http://www.valvoline.com/pages/produ...asp?product=10 |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
On 12 Jan 2004 16:41:48 -0800, clifffreeling@yahoo.com (Cliff
Freeling) wrote: >Read it for yourself: http://www.peakantifreeze.com/tech/tech_b.html > >Maybe I'm naive, but how could they legally make the claims on this >page (http://www.peakantifreeze.com/peakanti.html) about their >standard product if it weren't fact anyway? > >And yes, I changed the coolant in my German car today, and used >50/50 Prestone and distilled water, but have used Peak for years in >my cars with no problems. Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are screwing up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. Worse than the phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice they don't say much about silicates on the Peak site. European cars need low silicate as well as low phosphate. It's incredible that you buy that "low mineral content in the USA vs. Europe" crap from Peak. Water is different all across the USA, as it is in Europe. You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from Valvoline for about $9/gallon. Why screw around challenging what the engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right for $5/year ? http://www.valvoline.com/pages/produ...asp?product=10 |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
On 12 Jan 2004 16:41:48 -0800, clifffreeling@yahoo.com (Cliff
Freeling) wrote: >Read it for yourself: http://www.peakantifreeze.com/tech/tech_b.html > >Maybe I'm naive, but how could they legally make the claims on this >page (http://www.peakantifreeze.com/peakanti.html) about their >standard product if it weren't fact anyway? > >And yes, I changed the coolant in my German car today, and used >50/50 Prestone and distilled water, but have used Peak for years in >my cars with no problems. Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are screwing up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. Worse than the phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice they don't say much about silicates on the Peak site. European cars need low silicate as well as low phosphate. It's incredible that you buy that "low mineral content in the USA vs. Europe" crap from Peak. Water is different all across the USA, as it is in Europe. You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from Valvoline for about $9/gallon. Why screw around challenging what the engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right for $5/year ? http://www.valvoline.com/pages/produ...asp?product=10 |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
The last time I looked at Prestone it does have silicates in it which is an
abrasive. I have read from more than a few people that claim Prestone is not the choice to use in our Honda cars and for a few dollars it isn't worth the effort to challenge it. I am sure Honda sells a reasonably priced antifreeze. You only need a gallon of it anyway I believe. CaptainKrunch "Cliff Freeling" <clifffreeling@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:a0698655.0401121641.120457f@posting.google.co m... > It doesn't take much of a USENET search to see all the > badmouthing about Peak antifreeze, I guess mainly because > the brand contains phospate. People say this and that, > and repeat what others say without much thought. > > I have visited the Peak site and they discuss these issues, > and what they say makes sense to me at least. People blast > Peak because of the phosphates, then turn right around and > recommend distilled water for cooling sytems (which apparently > pretty much removes any negative effect from the phospates). > The Peak site claims that some European car makers say to avoid > such antifreezes simply because Europe generally has much harder > water than the U.S....makes sense to me. > > Read it for yourself: http://www.peakantifreeze.com/tech/tech_b.html > > Maybe I'm naive, but how could they legally make the claims on this > page (http://www.peakantifreeze.com/peakanti.html) about their > standard product if it weren't fact anyway? > > And yes, I changed the coolant in my German car today, and used > 50/50 Prestone and distilled water, but have used Peak for years in > my cars with no problems. > > -- > Cliff |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
The last time I looked at Prestone it does have silicates in it which is an
abrasive. I have read from more than a few people that claim Prestone is not the choice to use in our Honda cars and for a few dollars it isn't worth the effort to challenge it. I am sure Honda sells a reasonably priced antifreeze. You only need a gallon of it anyway I believe. CaptainKrunch "Cliff Freeling" <clifffreeling@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:a0698655.0401121641.120457f@posting.google.co m... > It doesn't take much of a USENET search to see all the > badmouthing about Peak antifreeze, I guess mainly because > the brand contains phospate. People say this and that, > and repeat what others say without much thought. > > I have visited the Peak site and they discuss these issues, > and what they say makes sense to me at least. People blast > Peak because of the phosphates, then turn right around and > recommend distilled water for cooling sytems (which apparently > pretty much removes any negative effect from the phospates). > The Peak site claims that some European car makers say to avoid > such antifreezes simply because Europe generally has much harder > water than the U.S....makes sense to me. > > Read it for yourself: http://www.peakantifreeze.com/tech/tech_b.html > > Maybe I'm naive, but how could they legally make the claims on this > page (http://www.peakantifreeze.com/peakanti.html) about their > standard product if it weren't fact anyway? > > And yes, I changed the coolant in my German car today, and used > 50/50 Prestone and distilled water, but have used Peak for years in > my cars with no problems. > > -- > Cliff |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
The last time I looked at Prestone it does have silicates in it which is an
abrasive. I have read from more than a few people that claim Prestone is not the choice to use in our Honda cars and for a few dollars it isn't worth the effort to challenge it. I am sure Honda sells a reasonably priced antifreeze. You only need a gallon of it anyway I believe. CaptainKrunch "Cliff Freeling" <clifffreeling@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:a0698655.0401121641.120457f@posting.google.co m... > It doesn't take much of a USENET search to see all the > badmouthing about Peak antifreeze, I guess mainly because > the brand contains phospate. People say this and that, > and repeat what others say without much thought. > > I have visited the Peak site and they discuss these issues, > and what they say makes sense to me at least. People blast > Peak because of the phosphates, then turn right around and > recommend distilled water for cooling sytems (which apparently > pretty much removes any negative effect from the phospates). > The Peak site claims that some European car makers say to avoid > such antifreezes simply because Europe generally has much harder > water than the U.S....makes sense to me. > > Read it for yourself: http://www.peakantifreeze.com/tech/tech_b.html > > Maybe I'm naive, but how could they legally make the claims on this > page (http://www.peakantifreeze.com/peakanti.html) about their > standard product if it weren't fact anyway? > > And yes, I changed the coolant in my German car today, and used > 50/50 Prestone and distilled water, but have used Peak for years in > my cars with no problems. > > -- > Cliff |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
The last time I looked at Prestone it does have silicates in it which is an
abrasive. I have read from more than a few people that claim Prestone is not the choice to use in our Honda cars and for a few dollars it isn't worth the effort to challenge it. I am sure Honda sells a reasonably priced antifreeze. You only need a gallon of it anyway I believe. CaptainKrunch "Cliff Freeling" <clifffreeling@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:a0698655.0401121641.120457f@posting.google.co m... > It doesn't take much of a USENET search to see all the > badmouthing about Peak antifreeze, I guess mainly because > the brand contains phospate. People say this and that, > and repeat what others say without much thought. > > I have visited the Peak site and they discuss these issues, > and what they say makes sense to me at least. People blast > Peak because of the phosphates, then turn right around and > recommend distilled water for cooling sytems (which apparently > pretty much removes any negative effect from the phospates). > The Peak site claims that some European car makers say to avoid > such antifreezes simply because Europe generally has much harder > water than the U.S....makes sense to me. > > Read it for yourself: http://www.peakantifreeze.com/tech/tech_b.html > > Maybe I'm naive, but how could they legally make the claims on this > page (http://www.peakantifreeze.com/peakanti.html) about their > standard product if it weren't fact anyway? > > And yes, I changed the coolant in my German car today, and used > 50/50 Prestone and distilled water, but have used Peak for years in > my cars with no problems. > > -- > Cliff |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
Roughly 1/12/04 18:49, CaptainKrunch's monkeys randomly typed:
> The last time I looked at Prestone it does have silicates in it which is an > abrasive. ? Silicon dioxide can be used as an abrasive, but a silicate is not silicon dioxide, nor is it a silicone, which is also not abrasive as your girlfriend may or may not be able to demonstrate to your satisfaction. As for silicate being "an abrasive" check out ordinary old sodium silicate... a liquid. |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
Roughly 1/12/04 18:49, CaptainKrunch's monkeys randomly typed:
> The last time I looked at Prestone it does have silicates in it which is an > abrasive. ? Silicon dioxide can be used as an abrasive, but a silicate is not silicon dioxide, nor is it a silicone, which is also not abrasive as your girlfriend may or may not be able to demonstrate to your satisfaction. As for silicate being "an abrasive" check out ordinary old sodium silicate... a liquid. |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
Roughly 1/12/04 18:49, CaptainKrunch's monkeys randomly typed:
> The last time I looked at Prestone it does have silicates in it which is an > abrasive. ? Silicon dioxide can be used as an abrasive, but a silicate is not silicon dioxide, nor is it a silicone, which is also not abrasive as your girlfriend may or may not be able to demonstrate to your satisfaction. As for silicate being "an abrasive" check out ordinary old sodium silicate... a liquid. |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
Roughly 1/12/04 18:49, CaptainKrunch's monkeys randomly typed:
> The last time I looked at Prestone it does have silicates in it which is an > abrasive. ? Silicon dioxide can be used as an abrasive, but a silicate is not silicon dioxide, nor is it a silicone, which is also not abrasive as your girlfriend may or may not be able to demonstrate to your satisfaction. As for silicate being "an abrasive" check out ordinary old sodium silicate... a liquid. |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
"CaptainKrunch" <nothing@nobody.com> wrote in
news:z5-dnXZ6SYRaxp7dRVn-gQ@comcast.com: > The last time I looked at Prestone it does have silicates in it which > is an abrasive. I have read from more than a few people that claim > Prestone is not the choice to use in our Honda cars and for a few > dollars it isn't worth the effort to challenge it. I am sure Honda > sells a reasonably priced antifreeze. You only need a gallon of it > anyway I believe. > > CaptainKrunch Honda/Acura doesn't sell anything "reasonably priced". -- Jim Yanik jyanik-at-kua.net |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
"CaptainKrunch" <nothing@nobody.com> wrote in
news:z5-dnXZ6SYRaxp7dRVn-gQ@comcast.com: > The last time I looked at Prestone it does have silicates in it which > is an abrasive. I have read from more than a few people that claim > Prestone is not the choice to use in our Honda cars and for a few > dollars it isn't worth the effort to challenge it. I am sure Honda > sells a reasonably priced antifreeze. You only need a gallon of it > anyway I believe. > > CaptainKrunch Honda/Acura doesn't sell anything "reasonably priced". -- Jim Yanik jyanik-at-kua.net |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
"CaptainKrunch" <nothing@nobody.com> wrote in
news:z5-dnXZ6SYRaxp7dRVn-gQ@comcast.com: > The last time I looked at Prestone it does have silicates in it which > is an abrasive. I have read from more than a few people that claim > Prestone is not the choice to use in our Honda cars and for a few > dollars it isn't worth the effort to challenge it. I am sure Honda > sells a reasonably priced antifreeze. You only need a gallon of it > anyway I believe. > > CaptainKrunch Honda/Acura doesn't sell anything "reasonably priced". -- Jim Yanik jyanik-at-kua.net |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
"CaptainKrunch" <nothing@nobody.com> wrote in
news:z5-dnXZ6SYRaxp7dRVn-gQ@comcast.com: > The last time I looked at Prestone it does have silicates in it which > is an abrasive. I have read from more than a few people that claim > Prestone is not the choice to use in our Honda cars and for a few > dollars it isn't worth the effort to challenge it. I am sure Honda > sells a reasonably priced antifreeze. You only need a gallon of it > anyway I believe. > > CaptainKrunch Honda/Acura doesn't sell anything "reasonably priced". -- Jim Yanik jyanik-at-kua.net |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
Jimmy wrote:
>Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are screwing >up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. Worse than the >phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice they don't say much >about silicates on the Peak site. European cars need low silicate as >well as low phosphate. Dude, you're not listening. >You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from >Valvoline for about $9/gallon. So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who "educated" you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has convinced you that you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no problems. >Why screw around challenging what the >engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right >for $5/year ? Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of business within a year. -- Cliff |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
Jimmy wrote:
>Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are screwing >up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. Worse than the >phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice they don't say much >about silicates on the Peak site. European cars need low silicate as >well as low phosphate. Dude, you're not listening. >You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from >Valvoline for about $9/gallon. So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who "educated" you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has convinced you that you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no problems. >Why screw around challenging what the >engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right >for $5/year ? Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of business within a year. -- Cliff |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
Jimmy wrote:
>Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are screwing >up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. Worse than the >phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice they don't say much >about silicates on the Peak site. European cars need low silicate as >well as low phosphate. Dude, you're not listening. >You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from >Valvoline for about $9/gallon. So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who "educated" you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has convinced you that you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no problems. >Why screw around challenging what the >engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right >for $5/year ? Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of business within a year. -- Cliff |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
Jimmy wrote:
>Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are screwing >up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. Worse than the >phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice they don't say much >about silicates on the Peak site. European cars need low silicate as >well as low phosphate. Dude, you're not listening. >You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from >Valvoline for about $9/gallon. So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who "educated" you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has convinced you that you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no problems. >Why screw around challenging what the >engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right >for $5/year ? Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of business within a year. -- Cliff |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
"Cliff Freeling" <clifffreeling@yahoo.com> wrote
> Jimmy wrote: > > >Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are screwing > >up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. Worse than the > >phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice they don't say much > >about silicates on the Peak site. European cars need low silicate as > >well as low phosphate. > > Dude, you're not listening. > > >You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from > >Valvoline for about $9/gallon. Havoline? > So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who "educated" > you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has convinced you that > you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't > listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no problems. Have you used it in Hondas? On the Honda newsgroups it seems to me a clear majority indicate the OEM anti-freeze is the only option for them, based on a lot of experience (with early Honda water pump bearing failures IIRC) and not just Honda salespeople. I suspect Prestone led to at least one early fairlure of one water pump on my 1991 Civic. I am now experimenting with the Havoline Dex stuff. I am also increasing the frequency of my radiator coolant flushes. Yet I would not advise Honda owners who don't have the time and who don't want want the trouble to do this. To play it safe, buy the Honda OEM anti-freeze for your Honda. > >Why screw around challenging what the > >engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right > >for $5/year ? > > Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my > manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak > and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of > business within a year. I imagine they're fine for some car makes but not others. |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
"Cliff Freeling" <clifffreeling@yahoo.com> wrote
> Jimmy wrote: > > >Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are screwing > >up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. Worse than the > >phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice they don't say much > >about silicates on the Peak site. European cars need low silicate as > >well as low phosphate. > > Dude, you're not listening. > > >You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from > >Valvoline for about $9/gallon. Havoline? > So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who "educated" > you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has convinced you that > you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't > listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no problems. Have you used it in Hondas? On the Honda newsgroups it seems to me a clear majority indicate the OEM anti-freeze is the only option for them, based on a lot of experience (with early Honda water pump bearing failures IIRC) and not just Honda salespeople. I suspect Prestone led to at least one early fairlure of one water pump on my 1991 Civic. I am now experimenting with the Havoline Dex stuff. I am also increasing the frequency of my radiator coolant flushes. Yet I would not advise Honda owners who don't have the time and who don't want want the trouble to do this. To play it safe, buy the Honda OEM anti-freeze for your Honda. > >Why screw around challenging what the > >engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right > >for $5/year ? > > Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my > manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak > and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of > business within a year. I imagine they're fine for some car makes but not others. |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
"Cliff Freeling" <clifffreeling@yahoo.com> wrote
> Jimmy wrote: > > >Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are screwing > >up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. Worse than the > >phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice they don't say much > >about silicates on the Peak site. European cars need low silicate as > >well as low phosphate. > > Dude, you're not listening. > > >You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from > >Valvoline for about $9/gallon. Havoline? > So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who "educated" > you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has convinced you that > you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't > listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no problems. Have you used it in Hondas? On the Honda newsgroups it seems to me a clear majority indicate the OEM anti-freeze is the only option for them, based on a lot of experience (with early Honda water pump bearing failures IIRC) and not just Honda salespeople. I suspect Prestone led to at least one early fairlure of one water pump on my 1991 Civic. I am now experimenting with the Havoline Dex stuff. I am also increasing the frequency of my radiator coolant flushes. Yet I would not advise Honda owners who don't have the time and who don't want want the trouble to do this. To play it safe, buy the Honda OEM anti-freeze for your Honda. > >Why screw around challenging what the > >engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right > >for $5/year ? > > Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my > manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak > and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of > business within a year. I imagine they're fine for some car makes but not others. |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
"Cliff Freeling" <clifffreeling@yahoo.com> wrote
> Jimmy wrote: > > >Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are screwing > >up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. Worse than the > >phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice they don't say much > >about silicates on the Peak site. European cars need low silicate as > >well as low phosphate. > > Dude, you're not listening. > > >You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from > >Valvoline for about $9/gallon. Havoline? > So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who "educated" > you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has convinced you that > you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't > listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no problems. Have you used it in Hondas? On the Honda newsgroups it seems to me a clear majority indicate the OEM anti-freeze is the only option for them, based on a lot of experience (with early Honda water pump bearing failures IIRC) and not just Honda salespeople. I suspect Prestone led to at least one early fairlure of one water pump on my 1991 Civic. I am now experimenting with the Havoline Dex stuff. I am also increasing the frequency of my radiator coolant flushes. Yet I would not advise Honda owners who don't have the time and who don't want want the trouble to do this. To play it safe, buy the Honda OEM anti-freeze for your Honda. > >Why screw around challenging what the > >engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right > >for $5/year ? > > Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my > manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak > and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of > business within a year. I imagine they're fine for some car makes but not others. |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
Antifreeze compositions are usually based upon a thermodynamic antifreeze
compound, primarily ethylene glycol or propylene glycol. These will be the same no matter what prime source you get them from. (Yes, others are possible but are not in commercial use right now) Ethylene glycol costs somewhat less than propylene glycol. Propylene glycol is a poorer thermodynamic antifreeze, but is somewhat better with respect to toxicity. In the quantities that the blenders purchase the glycols, they get them pretty cheap. EG is in the range of $ .25 per pound or less. The dye used costs nearly nothing. The agent used to bitter the antifreeze can add a bit to the cost. About $0.30 per gallon. The chemicals package is the next part. Old green antifreeze had a mixture of (typically) mercaptobenzotriazole or tolyltriazole (corrosion inhibitor for brass) Borax...(pH buffer, corrosion inhibitor) Sodium silicate (corrosion inhibitor for aluminum -wasn't too good either) Caustic soda (added alkaline reserve, pH control) Polymer...( corrosion inhibitor for iron. dispersant for solids. scale inhibitor) Phosphate (buffer. Corrosion inhibitor for iron) Sodium nitrate (corrosion inhibitor for solder) Lubricants for the water pump were often not a part of the package. Dye Everybody had about the same mix, give or take. Whether you paid a bunch or a little, there wasn't too much difference. There was some experimentation with floating polymer beads , intended to stop leaks and perhaps lubricate a bit, but in fact they ruined engines too. That stopped long ago. The new orange stuff is a different chemistry. It is based on salts of dibasic carboxylic acids. It is probably more environmentally responsible overall. Reasonably effective stuff. Blenders who use this patented formulation buy it from the same company. Now, if you were a seller, and could sell some nice orange crap at $9.00 per gallon, versus some green crap at $5.00 per gallon, both of which cost you about the same amount of money to make, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?? As a consumer, you pay what you have to pay to keep your warranty in place. Unless you actually do the tests, you do not know, nor can you ever know, what the variations of the chemical packages will do for your particular engine. None of them are as good as you might hope from the advertising claims. Neither are the rest as bad as many on this newsgroup would claim. There is no magic at work here. It is fairly simple chemistry. |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
Antifreeze compositions are usually based upon a thermodynamic antifreeze
compound, primarily ethylene glycol or propylene glycol. These will be the same no matter what prime source you get them from. (Yes, others are possible but are not in commercial use right now) Ethylene glycol costs somewhat less than propylene glycol. Propylene glycol is a poorer thermodynamic antifreeze, but is somewhat better with respect to toxicity. In the quantities that the blenders purchase the glycols, they get them pretty cheap. EG is in the range of $ .25 per pound or less. The dye used costs nearly nothing. The agent used to bitter the antifreeze can add a bit to the cost. About $0.30 per gallon. The chemicals package is the next part. Old green antifreeze had a mixture of (typically) mercaptobenzotriazole or tolyltriazole (corrosion inhibitor for brass) Borax...(pH buffer, corrosion inhibitor) Sodium silicate (corrosion inhibitor for aluminum -wasn't too good either) Caustic soda (added alkaline reserve, pH control) Polymer...( corrosion inhibitor for iron. dispersant for solids. scale inhibitor) Phosphate (buffer. Corrosion inhibitor for iron) Sodium nitrate (corrosion inhibitor for solder) Lubricants for the water pump were often not a part of the package. Dye Everybody had about the same mix, give or take. Whether you paid a bunch or a little, there wasn't too much difference. There was some experimentation with floating polymer beads , intended to stop leaks and perhaps lubricate a bit, but in fact they ruined engines too. That stopped long ago. The new orange stuff is a different chemistry. It is based on salts of dibasic carboxylic acids. It is probably more environmentally responsible overall. Reasonably effective stuff. Blenders who use this patented formulation buy it from the same company. Now, if you were a seller, and could sell some nice orange crap at $9.00 per gallon, versus some green crap at $5.00 per gallon, both of which cost you about the same amount of money to make, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?? As a consumer, you pay what you have to pay to keep your warranty in place. Unless you actually do the tests, you do not know, nor can you ever know, what the variations of the chemical packages will do for your particular engine. None of them are as good as you might hope from the advertising claims. Neither are the rest as bad as many on this newsgroup would claim. There is no magic at work here. It is fairly simple chemistry. |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
Antifreeze compositions are usually based upon a thermodynamic antifreeze
compound, primarily ethylene glycol or propylene glycol. These will be the same no matter what prime source you get them from. (Yes, others are possible but are not in commercial use right now) Ethylene glycol costs somewhat less than propylene glycol. Propylene glycol is a poorer thermodynamic antifreeze, but is somewhat better with respect to toxicity. In the quantities that the blenders purchase the glycols, they get them pretty cheap. EG is in the range of $ .25 per pound or less. The dye used costs nearly nothing. The agent used to bitter the antifreeze can add a bit to the cost. About $0.30 per gallon. The chemicals package is the next part. Old green antifreeze had a mixture of (typically) mercaptobenzotriazole or tolyltriazole (corrosion inhibitor for brass) Borax...(pH buffer, corrosion inhibitor) Sodium silicate (corrosion inhibitor for aluminum -wasn't too good either) Caustic soda (added alkaline reserve, pH control) Polymer...( corrosion inhibitor for iron. dispersant for solids. scale inhibitor) Phosphate (buffer. Corrosion inhibitor for iron) Sodium nitrate (corrosion inhibitor for solder) Lubricants for the water pump were often not a part of the package. Dye Everybody had about the same mix, give or take. Whether you paid a bunch or a little, there wasn't too much difference. There was some experimentation with floating polymer beads , intended to stop leaks and perhaps lubricate a bit, but in fact they ruined engines too. That stopped long ago. The new orange stuff is a different chemistry. It is based on salts of dibasic carboxylic acids. It is probably more environmentally responsible overall. Reasonably effective stuff. Blenders who use this patented formulation buy it from the same company. Now, if you were a seller, and could sell some nice orange crap at $9.00 per gallon, versus some green crap at $5.00 per gallon, both of which cost you about the same amount of money to make, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?? As a consumer, you pay what you have to pay to keep your warranty in place. Unless you actually do the tests, you do not know, nor can you ever know, what the variations of the chemical packages will do for your particular engine. None of them are as good as you might hope from the advertising claims. Neither are the rest as bad as many on this newsgroup would claim. There is no magic at work here. It is fairly simple chemistry. |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
Antifreeze compositions are usually based upon a thermodynamic antifreeze
compound, primarily ethylene glycol or propylene glycol. These will be the same no matter what prime source you get them from. (Yes, others are possible but are not in commercial use right now) Ethylene glycol costs somewhat less than propylene glycol. Propylene glycol is a poorer thermodynamic antifreeze, but is somewhat better with respect to toxicity. In the quantities that the blenders purchase the glycols, they get them pretty cheap. EG is in the range of $ .25 per pound or less. The dye used costs nearly nothing. The agent used to bitter the antifreeze can add a bit to the cost. About $0.30 per gallon. The chemicals package is the next part. Old green antifreeze had a mixture of (typically) mercaptobenzotriazole or tolyltriazole (corrosion inhibitor for brass) Borax...(pH buffer, corrosion inhibitor) Sodium silicate (corrosion inhibitor for aluminum -wasn't too good either) Caustic soda (added alkaline reserve, pH control) Polymer...( corrosion inhibitor for iron. dispersant for solids. scale inhibitor) Phosphate (buffer. Corrosion inhibitor for iron) Sodium nitrate (corrosion inhibitor for solder) Lubricants for the water pump were often not a part of the package. Dye Everybody had about the same mix, give or take. Whether you paid a bunch or a little, there wasn't too much difference. There was some experimentation with floating polymer beads , intended to stop leaks and perhaps lubricate a bit, but in fact they ruined engines too. That stopped long ago. The new orange stuff is a different chemistry. It is based on salts of dibasic carboxylic acids. It is probably more environmentally responsible overall. Reasonably effective stuff. Blenders who use this patented formulation buy it from the same company. Now, if you were a seller, and could sell some nice orange crap at $9.00 per gallon, versus some green crap at $5.00 per gallon, both of which cost you about the same amount of money to make, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?? As a consumer, you pay what you have to pay to keep your warranty in place. Unless you actually do the tests, you do not know, nor can you ever know, what the variations of the chemical packages will do for your particular engine. None of them are as good as you might hope from the advertising claims. Neither are the rest as bad as many on this newsgroup would claim. There is no magic at work here. It is fairly simple chemistry. |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
In news:a0698655.0401131419.4cde73eb@posting.google.c om,
Cliff Freeling <clifffreeling@yahoo.com> being of bellicose mind posted: > Jimmy wrote: > > > Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are > > screwing up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. > > Worse than the phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice > > they don't say much about silicates on the Peak site. European > > cars need low silicate as well as low phosphate. > > Dude, you're not listening. > > > You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from > > Valvoline for about $9/gallon. > > So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who > "educated" you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has > convinced you that > you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't > listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no > problems. > > > Why screw around challenging what the > > engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right > > for $5/year ? > > Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my > manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak > and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of > business within a year. My Corolla book does specify silicate and phosphate free coolant. The engine block, head, water pump, and radiator are aluminum. Last week I performed the first coolant change and bought the genuine Toyota coolant. Price was $12.95 for a gallon (a wee bit more than required). Prestone 5 yr ("orange") was $9.00. Prestone regular ("green") a couple bucks less. A few bucks for the right stuff .... over the next 50k miles is nothing. Nothing. -- -Philip "Whatever is a choice will become chosen" |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
In news:a0698655.0401131419.4cde73eb@posting.google.c om,
Cliff Freeling <clifffreeling@yahoo.com> being of bellicose mind posted: > Jimmy wrote: > > > Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are > > screwing up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. > > Worse than the phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice > > they don't say much about silicates on the Peak site. European > > cars need low silicate as well as low phosphate. > > Dude, you're not listening. > > > You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from > > Valvoline for about $9/gallon. > > So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who > "educated" you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has > convinced you that > you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't > listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no > problems. > > > Why screw around challenging what the > > engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right > > for $5/year ? > > Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my > manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak > and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of > business within a year. My Corolla book does specify silicate and phosphate free coolant. The engine block, head, water pump, and radiator are aluminum. Last week I performed the first coolant change and bought the genuine Toyota coolant. Price was $12.95 for a gallon (a wee bit more than required). Prestone 5 yr ("orange") was $9.00. Prestone regular ("green") a couple bucks less. A few bucks for the right stuff .... over the next 50k miles is nothing. Nothing. -- -Philip "Whatever is a choice will become chosen" |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
In news:a0698655.0401131419.4cde73eb@posting.google.c om,
Cliff Freeling <clifffreeling@yahoo.com> being of bellicose mind posted: > Jimmy wrote: > > > Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are > > screwing up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. > > Worse than the phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice > > they don't say much about silicates on the Peak site. European > > cars need low silicate as well as low phosphate. > > Dude, you're not listening. > > > You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from > > Valvoline for about $9/gallon. > > So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who > "educated" you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has > convinced you that > you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't > listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no > problems. > > > Why screw around challenging what the > > engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right > > for $5/year ? > > Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my > manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak > and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of > business within a year. My Corolla book does specify silicate and phosphate free coolant. The engine block, head, water pump, and radiator are aluminum. Last week I performed the first coolant change and bought the genuine Toyota coolant. Price was $12.95 for a gallon (a wee bit more than required). Prestone 5 yr ("orange") was $9.00. Prestone regular ("green") a couple bucks less. A few bucks for the right stuff .... over the next 50k miles is nothing. Nothing. -- -Philip "Whatever is a choice will become chosen" |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
In news:a0698655.0401131419.4cde73eb@posting.google.c om,
Cliff Freeling <clifffreeling@yahoo.com> being of bellicose mind posted: > Jimmy wrote: > > > Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are > > screwing up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. > > Worse than the phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice > > they don't say much about silicates on the Peak site. European > > cars need low silicate as well as low phosphate. > > Dude, you're not listening. > > > You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from > > Valvoline for about $9/gallon. > > So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who > "educated" you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has > convinced you that > you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't > listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no > problems. > > > Why screw around challenging what the > > engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right > > for $5/year ? > > Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my > manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak > and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of > business within a year. My Corolla book does specify silicate and phosphate free coolant. The engine block, head, water pump, and radiator are aluminum. Last week I performed the first coolant change and bought the genuine Toyota coolant. Price was $12.95 for a gallon (a wee bit more than required). Prestone 5 yr ("orange") was $9.00. Prestone regular ("green") a couple bucks less. A few bucks for the right stuff .... over the next 50k miles is nothing. Nothing. -- -Philip "Whatever is a choice will become chosen" |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
"Larry Smith" <larrys25@tellcon.net> wrote in message news:<1009bphg4she2ef@corp.supernews.com>...
<good educational stuff snipped for space> Damn Larry, you much be a chemist in the antifreeze field. > As a consumer, you pay what you have to pay to keep your warranty in place. > Unless you actually do the tests, you do not know, nor can you ever know, > what > the variations of the chemical packages will do for your particular engine. How true. All we can do is rely on observation and our experiences, and use a little intelligent reasoning. > None of them are as good as you might hope from the advertising claims. > Neither are the rest as bad as many on this newsgroup would claim. Never a more accurate statement than this! Of course, corporate America just LOVES the hordes who buy into their sales hype. -- Cliff |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
"Larry Smith" <larrys25@tellcon.net> wrote in message news:<1009bphg4she2ef@corp.supernews.com>...
<good educational stuff snipped for space> Damn Larry, you much be a chemist in the antifreeze field. > As a consumer, you pay what you have to pay to keep your warranty in place. > Unless you actually do the tests, you do not know, nor can you ever know, > what > the variations of the chemical packages will do for your particular engine. How true. All we can do is rely on observation and our experiences, and use a little intelligent reasoning. > None of them are as good as you might hope from the advertising claims. > Neither are the rest as bad as many on this newsgroup would claim. Never a more accurate statement than this! Of course, corporate America just LOVES the hordes who buy into their sales hype. -- Cliff |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
"Larry Smith" <larrys25@tellcon.net> wrote in message news:<1009bphg4she2ef@corp.supernews.com>...
<good educational stuff snipped for space> Damn Larry, you much be a chemist in the antifreeze field. > As a consumer, you pay what you have to pay to keep your warranty in place. > Unless you actually do the tests, you do not know, nor can you ever know, > what > the variations of the chemical packages will do for your particular engine. How true. All we can do is rely on observation and our experiences, and use a little intelligent reasoning. > None of them are as good as you might hope from the advertising claims. > Neither are the rest as bad as many on this newsgroup would claim. Never a more accurate statement than this! Of course, corporate America just LOVES the hordes who buy into their sales hype. -- Cliff |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
"Larry Smith" <larrys25@tellcon.net> wrote in message news:<1009bphg4she2ef@corp.supernews.com>...
<good educational stuff snipped for space> Damn Larry, you much be a chemist in the antifreeze field. > As a consumer, you pay what you have to pay to keep your warranty in place. > Unless you actually do the tests, you do not know, nor can you ever know, > what > the variations of the chemical packages will do for your particular engine. How true. All we can do is rely on observation and our experiences, and use a little intelligent reasoning. > None of them are as good as you might hope from the advertising claims. > Neither are the rest as bad as many on this newsgroup would claim. Never a more accurate statement than this! Of course, corporate America just LOVES the hordes who buy into their sales hype. -- Cliff |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<_n%Mb.8383$zj7.1156@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net>...
> Have you used it in Hondas? No, I've never owned a Honda, although they're good cars. I've used it in Mazdas, Toyotas, and MBs. > > On the Honda newsgroups it seems to me a clear majority indicate the OEM > anti-freeze is the only option for them, based on a lot of experience (with > early Honda water pump bearing failures IIRC) and not just Honda salespeople. > > I suspect Prestone led to at least one early fairlure of one water pump on my > 1991 Civic. Water pumps, being mechanical devices, will always fail eventually, usually at around 100k from my experience. Maybe there's some truth to your claim, I don't know, but I've never heard that Prestone was bad for water pumps. > > I am now experimenting with the Havoline Dex stuff. I am also increasing the > frequency of my radiator coolant flushes. Yet I would not advise Honda owners > who don't have the time and who don't want want the trouble to do this. > > To play it safe, buy the Honda OEM anti-freeze for your Honda. "Playing it safe" can cost unecessarily. Believe me, I know. I've been around the block a few times, and have done much of my own auto repairs/service for years, and I can tell you that much of what is "recommended" from service people (who usually don't do as thorough a job as I do myself), and even the manuals, is totally unnecessary. -- Cliff |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<_n%Mb.8383$zj7.1156@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net>...
> Have you used it in Hondas? No, I've never owned a Honda, although they're good cars. I've used it in Mazdas, Toyotas, and MBs. > > On the Honda newsgroups it seems to me a clear majority indicate the OEM > anti-freeze is the only option for them, based on a lot of experience (with > early Honda water pump bearing failures IIRC) and not just Honda salespeople. > > I suspect Prestone led to at least one early fairlure of one water pump on my > 1991 Civic. Water pumps, being mechanical devices, will always fail eventually, usually at around 100k from my experience. Maybe there's some truth to your claim, I don't know, but I've never heard that Prestone was bad for water pumps. > > I am now experimenting with the Havoline Dex stuff. I am also increasing the > frequency of my radiator coolant flushes. Yet I would not advise Honda owners > who don't have the time and who don't want want the trouble to do this. > > To play it safe, buy the Honda OEM anti-freeze for your Honda. "Playing it safe" can cost unecessarily. Believe me, I know. I've been around the block a few times, and have done much of my own auto repairs/service for years, and I can tell you that much of what is "recommended" from service people (who usually don't do as thorough a job as I do myself), and even the manuals, is totally unnecessary. -- Cliff |
Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<_n%Mb.8383$zj7.1156@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net>...
> Have you used it in Hondas? No, I've never owned a Honda, although they're good cars. I've used it in Mazdas, Toyotas, and MBs. > > On the Honda newsgroups it seems to me a clear majority indicate the OEM > anti-freeze is the only option for them, based on a lot of experience (with > early Honda water pump bearing failures IIRC) and not just Honda salespeople. > > I suspect Prestone led to at least one early fairlure of one water pump on my > 1991 Civic. Water pumps, being mechanical devices, will always fail eventually, usually at around 100k from my experience. Maybe there's some truth to your claim, I don't know, but I've never heard that Prestone was bad for water pumps. > > I am now experimenting with the Havoline Dex stuff. I am also increasing the > frequency of my radiator coolant flushes. Yet I would not advise Honda owners > who don't have the time and who don't want want the trouble to do this. > > To play it safe, buy the Honda OEM anti-freeze for your Honda. "Playing it safe" can cost unecessarily. Believe me, I know. I've been around the block a few times, and have done much of my own auto repairs/service for years, and I can tell you that much of what is "recommended" from service people (who usually don't do as thorough a job as I do myself), and even the manuals, is totally unnecessary. -- Cliff |
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