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Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
Hello,
Real amateur when it comes to negotiating for a new car. In my 70's now, not that sharp with negotiating, and would appreciate any opinions on this: I see in the various Forums and newsgroups that an "appropriate" first offer on a new car would be perhaps 500 max. over the Dealers Invoice. Seems to be a magic number. How is the Dest. charge handled ? Would this 500 over invoice offer figure include the destination charge which seems to run about 700 these days, or is the dest charge (usually) added on to whatever price you and the dealer agree upon ? Thanks, B. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
In article <OICdna-TSuPTljHVnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"Robert11" <rgsros@notme.com> wrote: > I see in the various Forums and newsgroups that an "appropriate" first offer > on a new car would be perhaps 500 max. over the Dealers Invoice. Seems to > be a magic number. > > How is the Dest. charge handled ? It's an absolute; it has to be listed on the sales paperwork directly. The car price, invoice or otherwise, is separate from the destination charge. Thank you, unions. > Would this 500 over invoice offer figure include the destination charge > which seems to run about 700 these days, or is the dest charge (usually) > added on to whatever price you and the dealer agree upon ? Added on. http://www.edmunds.com even shows it that way in their listings. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <OICdna-TSuPTljHVnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@comcast.com>, > "Robert11" <rgsros@notme.com> wrote: > >> I see in the various Forums and newsgroups that an "appropriate" first offer >> on a new car would be perhaps 500 max. over the Dealers Invoice. Seems to >> be a magic number. >> >> How is the Dest. charge handled ? > > It's an absolute; it has to be listed on the sales paperwork directly. > The car price, invoice or otherwise, is separate from the destination > charge. > > Thank you, unions. > > > >> Would this 500 over invoice offer figure include the destination charge >> which seems to run about 700 these days, or is the dest charge (usually) >> added on to whatever price you and the dealer agree upon ? > > Added on. > > http://www.edmunds.com even shows it that way in their listings. "dealer invoice" is a ridiculous price fixing mechanism. reality is, there's no way dealers can pay their real estate costs, advertising, sales staff and cost of inventory for a mere $700. absolutely no way. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
The April issue of Consumer Reports has info on this.
April's issue is always the annual "car buying" issue. Public libraries keep these at the reference desk or in the magazine section. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
In article <zamdnXC128KzgjHVnZ2dnUVZ_tzinZ2d@speakeasy.net> ,
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote: > "dealer invoice" is a ridiculous price fixing mechanism. Agreed. I'm amazed at people who swear by a number that's written on paper. "I'd never pay sticker, by definition that's a ripoff." Well.....with a high demand car, it may reflect the market value of the car. Hell, sticker may be UNDER market value! Those same people swear by "I'll pay $200 over invoice, nothing more"--without realizing that they've conditioned the carmakers to "release" this number they call "invoice" price, which in reality is--ta daaa--just another sticker price. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
Waiving the right to remain silent, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
<elmop@nastydesigns.com> said: > In article <zamdnXC128KzgjHVnZ2dnUVZ_tzinZ2d@speakeasy.net> , > jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote: > >> "dealer invoice" is a ridiculous price fixing mechanism. > > Agreed. > > I'm amazed at people who swear by a number that's written on paper. > "I'd never pay sticker, by definition that's a ripoff." Well.....with a > high demand car, it may reflect the market value of the car. Hell, > sticker may be UNDER market value! > > Those same people swear by "I'll pay $200 over invoice, nothing > more"--without realizing that they've conditioned the carmakers to > "release" this number they call "invoice" price, which in reality is--ta > daaa--just another sticker price. You'd need to be the accounant at a dealership to know what they really paid for a car... -- Larry J. - Remove spamtrap in ALLCAPS to e-mail "A lack of common sense is now considered a disability, with all the privileges that this entails." |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
"Robert11" <rgsros@notme.com> wrote in message
news:OICdna-TSuPTljHVnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@comcast.com... > Hello, > > Real amateur when it comes to negotiating for a new car. > In my 70's now, not that sharp with negotiating, and would appreciate any > opinions on this: > > I see in the various Forums and newsgroups that an "appropriate" first > offer > on a new car would be perhaps 500 max. over the Dealers Invoice. Seems to > be a magic number. > > How is the Dest. charge handled ? > > Would this 500 over invoice offer figure include the destination charge > which seems to run about 700 these days, or is the dest charge (usually) > added on to whatever price you and the dealer agree upon ? > > Thanks, > B. > > Sounds like you might want to take someone with you-- a shrewd relative/friend, etc. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
Larry in AZ wrote:
> Waiving the right to remain silent, "Elmo P. Shagnasty" > <elmop@nastydesigns.com> said: > >> In article <zamdnXC128KzgjHVnZ2dnUVZ_tzinZ2d@speakeasy.net> , >> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote: >> >>> "dealer invoice" is a ridiculous price fixing mechanism. >> Agreed. >> >> I'm amazed at people who swear by a number that's written on paper. >> "I'd never pay sticker, by definition that's a ripoff." Well.....with a >> high demand car, it may reflect the market value of the car. Hell, >> sticker may be UNDER market value! >> >> Those same people swear by "I'll pay $200 over invoice, nothing >> more"--without realizing that they've conditioned the carmakers to >> "release" this number they call "invoice" price, which in reality is--ta >> daaa--just another sticker price. > > You'd need to be the accounant at a dealership to know what they really paid > for a car... > as i understand it, they don't even pay, they just sell it, then remit an agreed amount back to the manufacturer. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
Waiving the right to remain silent, jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net>
said: > Larry in AZ wrote: >> Waiving the right to remain silent, "Elmo P. Shagnasty" >> <elmop@nastydesigns.com> said: >> >>> In article <zamdnXC128KzgjHVnZ2dnUVZ_tzinZ2d@speakeasy.net> , jim beam >>> <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote: >>> >>>> "dealer invoice" is a ridiculous price fixing mechanism. >>> Agreed. >>> >>> I'm amazed at people who swear by a number that's written on paper. >>> "I'd never pay sticker, by definition that's a ripoff." Well.....with >>> a high demand car, it may reflect the market value of the car. Hell, >>> sticker may be UNDER market value! >>> >>> Those same people swear by "I'll pay $200 over invoice, nothing >>> more"--without realizing that they've conditioned the carmakers to >>> "release" this number they call "invoice" price, which in reality >>> is--ta daaa--just another sticker price. >> >> You'd need to be the accounant at a dealership to know what they really >> paid for a car... >> > > as i understand it, they don't even pay, they just sell it, then remit > an agreed amount back to the manufacturer. That would depend on the dealer's contract with the manufacturer. I could see some of them even being on COD if their credit isn't very shiny... -- Larry J. - Remove spamtrap in ALLCAPS to e-mail "A lack of common sense is now considered a disability, with all the privileges that this entails." |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
Larry in AZ wrote:
> Waiving the right to remain silent, jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> > said: > >> Larry in AZ wrote: >>> Waiving the right to remain silent, "Elmo P. Shagnasty" >>> <elmop@nastydesigns.com> said: >>> >>>> In article <zamdnXC128KzgjHVnZ2dnUVZ_tzinZ2d@speakeasy.net> , jim beam >>>> <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> "dealer invoice" is a ridiculous price fixing mechanism. >>>> Agreed. >>>> >>>> I'm amazed at people who swear by a number that's written on paper. >>>> "I'd never pay sticker, by definition that's a ripoff." Well.....with >>>> a high demand car, it may reflect the market value of the car. Hell, >>>> sticker may be UNDER market value! >>>> >>>> Those same people swear by "I'll pay $200 over invoice, nothing >>>> more"--without realizing that they've conditioned the carmakers to >>>> "release" this number they call "invoice" price, which in reality >>>> is--ta daaa--just another sticker price. >>> You'd need to be the accounant at a dealership to know what they really >>> paid for a car... >>> >> as i understand it, they don't even pay, they just sell it, then remit >> an agreed amount back to the manufacturer. > > That would depend on the dealer's contract with the manufacturer. I could > see some of them even being on COD if their credit isn't very shiny... > why would they bother with cod if that dealer isn't much good? surely they'd want to retain ownership? |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
Robert11 wrote:
> Hello, > > Real amateur when it comes to negotiating for a new car. > In my 70's now, not that sharp with negotiating, and would appreciate any > opinions on this: > > I see in the various Forums and newsgroups that an "appropriate" first offer > on a new car would be perhaps 500 max. over the Dealers Invoice. Seems to > be a magic number. Not magic at all. The dealer doesn't pay the manufacturer the "invoice price," and you routinely see dealers advertise "under invoice." The last two cars I purchased we paid well under invoice. Clearly the dealer wasn't selling these vehicles at a loss. Between holdback, factory to dealer incentives, and other kickbacks, selling at invoice is very very profitable for the dealer. You want to go up from dealer cost, not up or down from invoice or MSRP. Unfortunately determining dealer cost is very difficult. You need to know all the incentives for a specific vehicle in a specific region of the country. Offer $500 over dealer cost, if you can figure out dealer cost. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
SMS wrote:
> Robert11 wrote: >> Hello, >> >> Real amateur when it comes to negotiating for a new car. >> In my 70's now, not that sharp with negotiating, and would appreciate >> any opinions on this: >> >> I see in the various Forums and newsgroups that an "appropriate" first >> offer >> on a new car would be perhaps 500 max. over the Dealers Invoice. >> Seems to >> be a magic number. > > Not magic at all. The dealer doesn't pay the manufacturer the "invoice > price," and you routinely see dealers advertise "under invoice." The > last two cars I purchased we paid well under invoice. Clearly the dealer > wasn't selling these vehicles at a loss. Between holdback, factory to > dealer incentives, and other kickbacks, selling at invoice is very very > profitable for the dealer. > > You want to go up from dealer cost, not up or down from invoice or MSRP. > Unfortunately determining dealer cost is very difficult. You need to > know all the incentives for a specific vehicle in a specific region of > the country. > > Offer $500 over dealer cost, if you can figure out dealer cost. $500 over cost doesn't cover overheads, commissions, anything. there's no way they'd sell for that. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
On Aug 22, 12:10 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> SMS wrote: > > Robert11 wrote: > >> Hello, > > >> Real amateur when it comes to negotiating for a new car. > >> In my 70's now, not that sharp with negotiating, and would appreciate > >> any opinions on this: > > >> I see in the various Forums and newsgroups that an "appropriate" first > >> offer > >> on a new car would be perhaps 500 max. over the Dealers Invoice. > >> Seems to > >> be a magic number. > > > Not magic at all. The dealer doesn't pay the manufacturer the "invoice > > price," and you routinely see dealers advertise "under invoice." The > > last two cars I purchased we paid well under invoice. Clearly the dealer > > wasn't selling these vehicles at a loss. Between holdback, factory to > > dealer incentives, and other kickbacks, selling at invoice is very very > > profitable for the dealer. > > > You want to go up from dealer cost, not up or down from invoice or MSRP.. > > Unfortunately determining dealer cost is very difficult. You need to > > know all the incentives for a specific vehicle in a specific region of > > the country. > > > Offer $500 over dealer cost, if you can figure out dealer cost. > > $500 over cost doesn't cover overheads, commissions, anything. there's > no way they'd sell for that.- Hide quoted text - If profit (or not) made on the front end won't cover it, profit made on the back end would. Some dealers make more on financing and/or service than sales. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
Siskuwihane wrote:
> On Aug 22, 12:10�am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: >> SMS wrote: >>> Robert11 wrote: >>>> Hello, >>>> Real amateur when it comes to negotiating for a new car. >>>> In my 70's now, not that sharp with negotiating, and would appreciate >>>> any opinions on this: >>>> I see in the various Forums and newsgroups that an "appropriate" first >>>> offer >>>> on a new car would be perhaps 500 max. over the Dealers Invoice. � >>>> Seems to >>>> be a magic number. >>> Not magic at all. The dealer doesn't pay the manufacturer the "invoice >>> price," and you routinely see dealers advertise "under invoice." The >>> last two cars I purchased we paid well under invoice. Clearly the dealer >>> wasn't selling these vehicles at a loss. Between holdback, factory to >>> dealer incentives, and other kickbacks, selling at invoice is very very >>> profitable for the dealer. >>> You want to go up from dealer cost, not up or down from invoice or MSRP. >>> Unfortunately determining dealer cost is very difficult. You need to >>> know all the incentives for a specific vehicle in a specific region of >>> the country. >>> Offer $500 over dealer cost, if you can figure out dealer cost. >> $500 over cost doesn't cover overheads, commissions, anything. �there's >> no way they'd sell for that.- Hide quoted text - > > If profit (or not) made on the front end won't cover it, profit made > on the back end would. Some dealers make more on financing and/or > service than sales. > don't believe it. all that fancy real estate, and all those sales dudes with all their gold jewelry getting fat on $500? no way. and there's no way the sales dudes get a share of selling you a $900 timing belt replacement. bottom line, the myths about minimal margins in car sales have to be a complete crock - otherwise car sales would be mail order or from some dirt lot three hours out of town. basic math. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
jim beam wrote:
>> Offer $500 over dealer cost, if you can figure out dealer cost. > > $500 over cost doesn't cover overheads, commissions, anything. there's > no way they'd sell for that. Yet they do that all the time. Of course they're not selling every vehicle on the lot for $500 over cost, you're correct that this would not cover their overhead. You have to look at the big picture like the dealer does. A dealer views a $500 (or less) over cost sale in several ways: 1. As pure upside revenue that they would otherwise not have, because the potential customer will leave. 2. As an opportunity to sell financing, an extended warranty, paint protectant, fabric guard, glass etching, Lo-Jack, and a long list of other very high-margin dealer installed, mostly worthless, options. 3. As future potential revenue for the service department. Of course they're not going to sell a vehicle that is in short-supply and high-demand for $500 over dealer cost, or even $500 over invoice, but there are very few vehicles that fall into that category. The Honda Odyssey used to be in that category, now the Prius and Civic hybrids are probably in that category now. If you have to have the hot car of the moment, you'll pay more (have patience, supply will catch up with demand), but you can easily buy high-volume vehicles like the Camry and Accord for $500 over dealer cost (or less), depending on the time of year. I.e., the last Camry we purchased had an MSRP of $20,728, and invoice of $18,551 (including destination), a factory to dealer incentive of $1000, factory kickbacks (holdback plus advertising subsidy, plus WFR) to the dealer of 5% of the base invoice ($928) (Toyota bases this on invoice, not MSRP like most manufacturers). The dealer cost was $16,623. The price they were selling them at was $16,988, and this wasn't a negotiated price, it was "all model 2532 in stock at this price." Of course it wasn't as simple as walking in and plonking down the money. When it became clear that we weren't buying a warranty, or financing, or digital floor mats, the vehicle suddenly became "unavailable," with a bizarre excuse about how it had been damaged on the lot and then repaired, and how it needed to be "cleared" by Toyota before it could be sold. However returning the next day, we worked around the dealer's shenanigans by financing the vehicle then paying off the loan a week later. In my experience, the best deals are found during, and right after the XMAS season (when many people have no money to spend, and the excitement of the new model year has worn off) and in the summer before the next year's models come out. National sales figures show December and January as the slowest months, and it's been that way for a long time. To me, the most amusing thing is when perfectly mediocre vehicles like the PT Cruiser are hyped beyond belief and dealers are able to charge thousands over MSRP to dumb people. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
SMS wrote:
> jim beam wrote: > >>> Offer $500 over dealer cost, if you can figure out dealer cost. >> >> $500 over cost doesn't cover overheads, commissions, anything. >> there's no way they'd sell for that. > > Yet they do that all the time. Of course they're not selling every > vehicle on the lot for $500 over cost, you're correct that this would > not cover their overhead. You have to look at the big picture like the > dealer does. A dealer views a $500 (or less) over cost sale in several > ways: > > 1. As pure upside revenue that they would otherwise not have, because > the potential customer will leave. > > 2. As an opportunity to sell financing, an extended warranty, paint > protectant, fabric guard, glass etching, Lo-Jack, and a long list of > other very high-margin dealer installed, mostly worthless, options. > > 3. As future potential revenue for the service department. > > Of course they're not going to sell a vehicle that is in short-supply > and high-demand for $500 over dealer cost, or even $500 over invoice, > but there are very few vehicles that fall into that category. The Honda > Odyssey used to be in that category, now the Prius and Civic hybrids are > probably in that category now. If you have to have the hot car of the > moment, you'll pay more (have patience, supply will catch up with > demand), but you can easily buy high-volume vehicles like the Camry and > Accord for $500 over dealer cost (or less), depending on the time of year. > > I.e., the last Camry we purchased had an MSRP of $20,728, and invoice of > $18,551 (including destination), a factory to dealer incentive of $1000, > factory kickbacks (holdback plus advertising subsidy, plus WFR) to the > dealer of 5% of the base invoice ($928) (Toyota bases this on invoice, > not MSRP like most manufacturers). The dealer cost was $16,623. The > price they were selling them at was $16,988, and this wasn't a > negotiated price, it was "all model 2532 in stock at this price." no, you're getting suckered by this "dealer cost" crap. that's an entirely fictional number that [apparently successfully] helps you feel better. > > Of course it wasn't as simple as walking in and plonking down the money. > When it became clear that we weren't buying a warranty, or financing, or > digital floor mats, the vehicle suddenly became "unavailable," with a > bizarre excuse about how it had been damaged on the lot and then > repaired, and how it needed to be "cleared" by Toyota before it could be > sold. However returning the next day, we worked around the dealer's > shenanigans by financing the vehicle then paying off the loan a week later. > > In my experience, the best deals are found during, and right after the > XMAS season (when many people have no money to spend, and the excitement > of the new model year has worn off) and in the summer before the next > year's models come out. National sales figures show December and January > as the slowest months, and it's been that way for a long time. > > To me, the most amusing thing is when perfectly mediocre vehicles like > the PT Cruiser are hyped beyond belief and dealers are able to charge > thousands over MSRP to dumb people. car rental agencies buy vehicles direct from manufacturers at abut 50% of sticker. that implies that dealers do also. that means the "$500 over dealer cost" translates to about $10k for your toyota. thus the fancy real estate and the gold chains. looking at it from another perspective, 100% markup over cost, or more, is absolutely the norm for low volume, high cost retailers. the idea that car dealers should somehow be different, and that their spectacular overhead should be paid for out of these so-called incredibly skinny margins, is naive in the extreme. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
On Aug 22, 8:48 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> Siskuwihane wrote: > > On Aug 22, 12:10 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: > >> SMS wrote: > >>> Robert11 wrote: > >>>> Hello, > >>>> Real amateur when it comes to negotiating for a new car. > >>>> In my 70's now, not that sharp with negotiating, and would appreciate > >>>> any opinions on this: > >>>> I see in the various Forums and newsgroups that an "appropriate" first > >>>> offer > >>>> on a new car would be perhaps 500 max. over the Dealers Invoice. > >>>> Seems to > >>>> be a magic number. > >>> Not magic at all. The dealer doesn't pay the manufacturer the "invoice > >>> price," and you routinely see dealers advertise "under invoice." The > >>> last two cars I purchased we paid well under invoice. Clearly the dealer > >>> wasn't selling these vehicles at a loss. Between holdback, factory to > >>> dealer incentives, and other kickbacks, selling at invoice is very very > >>> profitable for the dealer. > >>> You want to go up from dealer cost, not up or down from invoice or MSRP. > >>> Unfortunately determining dealer cost is very difficult. You need to > >>> know all the incentives for a specific vehicle in a specific region of > >>> the country. > >>> Offer $500 over dealer cost, if you can figure out dealer cost. > >> $500 over cost doesn't cover overheads, commissions, anything. there's > >> no way they'd sell for that.- Hide quoted text - > > > If profit (or not) made on the front end won't cover it, profit made > > on the back end would. Some dealers make more on financing and/or > > service than sales. > > don't believe it. all that fancy real estate, and all those sales dudes > with all their gold jewelry getting fat on $500? no way. and there's > no way the sales dudes get a share of selling you a $900 timing belt > replacement. I don't believe it was stated anywhere that every vehicle was sold at that price. Not everyone who walks into the dealership knows what they are doing so vehicles get sold at many different price points. The fact is cars do get sold at $500 or less over invoice all the time. > bottom line, the myths about minimal margins in car sales have to be a > complete crock - otherwise car sales would be mail order or from some > dirt lot three hours out of town. basic math.- Hide quoted text - And they would be serviced in that same dirt lot or by mail? Financed from that same dirt lot or by mail? |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
On Aug 22, 9:34 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> SMS wrote: > > jim beam wrote: > > >>> Offer $500 over dealer cost, if you can figure out dealer cost. > > >> $500 over cost doesn't cover overheads, commissions, anything. > >> there's no way they'd sell for that. > > > Yet they do that all the time. Of course they're not selling every > > vehicle on the lot for $500 over cost, you're correct that this would > > not cover their overhead. You have to look at the big picture like the > > dealer does. A dealer views a $500 (or less) over cost sale in several > > ways: > > > 1. As pure upside revenue that they would otherwise not have, because > > the potential customer will leave. > > > 2. As an opportunity to sell financing, an extended warranty, paint > > protectant, fabric guard, glass etching, Lo-Jack, and a long list of > > other very high-margin dealer installed, mostly worthless, options. > > > 3. As future potential revenue for the service department. > > > Of course they're not going to sell a vehicle that is in short-supply > > and high-demand for $500 over dealer cost, or even $500 over invoice, > > but there are very few vehicles that fall into that category. The Honda > > Odyssey used to be in that category, now the Prius and Civic hybrids are > > probably in that category now. If you have to have the hot car of the > > moment, you'll pay more (have patience, supply will catch up with > > demand), but you can easily buy high-volume vehicles like the Camry and > > Accord for $500 over dealer cost (or less), depending on the time of year. > > > I.e., the last Camry we purchased had an MSRP of $20,728, and invoice of > > $18,551 (including destination), a factory to dealer incentive of $1000, > > factory kickbacks (holdback plus advertising subsidy, plus WFR) to the > > dealer of 5% of the base invoice ($928) (Toyota bases this on invoice, > > not MSRP like most manufacturers). The dealer cost was $16,623. The > > price they were selling them at was $16,988, and this wasn't a > > negotiated price, it was "all model 2532 in stock at this price." > > no, you're getting suckered by this "dealer cost" crap. that's an > entirely fictional number that [apparently successfully] helps you feel > better. > > > > > > > > > Of course it wasn't as simple as walking in and plonking down the money.. > > When it became clear that we weren't buying a warranty, or financing, or > > digital floor mats, the vehicle suddenly became "unavailable," with a > > bizarre excuse about how it had been damaged on the lot and then > > repaired, and how it needed to be "cleared" by Toyota before it could be > > sold. However returning the next day, we worked around the dealer's > > shenanigans by financing the vehicle then paying off the loan a week later. > > > In my experience, the best deals are found during, and right after the > > XMAS season (when many people have no money to spend, and the excitement > > of the new model year has worn off) and in the summer before the next > > year's models come out. National sales figures show December and January > > as the slowest months, and it's been that way for a long time. > > > To me, the most amusing thing is when perfectly mediocre vehicles like > > the PT Cruiser are hyped beyond belief and dealers are able to charge > > thousands over MSRP to dumb people. > > car rental agencies buy vehicles direct from manufacturers at abut 50% > of sticker. that implies that dealers do also. that means the "$500 > over dealer cost" translates to about $10k for your toyota. thus the > fancy real estate and the gold chains. - Having worked for a Hertz Licensee, our vehicles were sold to us through a dealer and never for 50% of sticker, if it worked that way (not saying it doesn't for corporate owned locations but 50% sounds a little steep) the employees would have been buying them too. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
Siskuwihane wrote:
> I don't believe it was stated anywhere that every vehicle was sold at > that price. Not everyone who walks into the dealership knows what they > are doing so vehicles get sold at many different price points. The > fact is cars do get sold at $500 or less over invoice all the time. That's the key point the Jim doesn't understand. BTW, don't get suckered by "$500 over invoice." the last car we purchased had an invoice price of $18,551, and a dealer cost of nearly $2000 below invoice. There's a _huge_ difference between dealer cost and invoice, they really bear little relation to each other. In fact invoices has become the defacto retail price for many vehicles, with dealers thrilled to be able to sell as many vehicles as possible at invoice. The last Accord I helped someone buy (Autowest Honda in Fremont) was about $1200 under "invoice." I don't remember the dealer cost. This was a "six at this price" sale, and indeed they did have them on the lot but they were all black (black doesn't sell well in my area). They wanted $750 more for a different color, and settled for $250. Naturally there was the high pressure for extended warranties and other crapola, but it's not hard to resist. Invoice is just a bogus concept these days. Don't think buying at invoice is some sort of spectacular achievement, it isn't. You see people that paid too much insisting that it's just not possible for a dealer to sell at $500 over cost, but what they really mean is that it's not possible for the dealer to sell every vehicle at $500 over cost. Now OTOH, one sister-in-law went into a Honda dealer for a repair on her Accord and walked out with a new CR-V at significantly over invoice, complete with a non-Honda extended warranty and 100% financing by the dealer. Now she wants to let them repossess it because the payments are so high, but it's not that simple as they'll come after her for the difference between the wholesale value of the vehicle, and the balance of the loan amount. I guess it's just morally wrong to allow a sucker to keep their money. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
Siskuwihane wrote:
> Having worked for a Hertz Licensee, our vehicles were sold to us > through a dealer and never for 50% of sticker, if it worked that way > (not saying it doesn't for corporate owned locations but 50% sounds a > little steep) the employees would have been buying them too. It was about 80% of MSRP, and it's gone up. Plus the rental agencies tend to buy the stripped down vehicles, as well as the vehicles that no one else wants to buy. Sometimes there are vehicles manufactured solely for rental car fleets. The problem appears to be that Jim got ripped off by a dealer at some time in the recent past, and he actually believed what the car salesperson told him! |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
Waiving the right to remain silent, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> said:
> You want to go up from dealer cost, not up or down from invoice or MSRP. > Unfortunately determining dealer cost is very difficult. You need to > know all the incentives for a specific vehicle in a specific region of > the country. You need to know even more than that. Aside from the published programs, a dealer may have additional price breaks based on volume, etc. As I said before, you'd need to ask the dealership's accountant, and it isn't very likely you'll get the information from them, unless they want to lose their job... -- Larry J. - Remove spamtrap in ALLCAPS to e-mail "A lack of common sense is now considered a disability, with all the privileges that this entails." |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
Larry in AZ wrote:
> Waiving the right to remain silent, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> said: > >> You want to go up from dealer cost, not up or down from invoice or MSRP. >> Unfortunately determining dealer cost is very difficult. You need to >> know all the incentives for a specific vehicle in a specific region of >> the country. > > You need to know even more than that. Aside from the published programs, a > dealer may have additional price breaks based on volume, etc. > > As I said before, you'd need to ask the dealership's accountant, and it isn't > very likely you'll get the information from them, unless they want to lose > their job... Yes, it's true that knowing the real dealer cost is damn near impossible. However, you can come pretty close by finding out the invoice price, all the factory to dealer incentives that are in place, and all the known kickbacks that the factory or region is giving the dealers. I know that in my area, the Toyota dealer is getting 2% holdback, 2% in advertising subsidy, and 1% called WFR (which is ostensibly to finance their inventory with their bank). The key thing to remember is that "invoice" can easily be $1000 more than the dealer cost. The dealer isn't losing money when they sell some vehicles at $500 over their cost. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
SMS wrote:
> Larry in AZ wrote: >> Waiving the right to remain silent, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> said: >> >>> You want to go up from dealer cost, not up or down from invoice or >>> MSRP. Unfortunately determining dealer cost is very difficult. You >>> need to know all the incentives for a specific vehicle in a specific >>> region of the country. >> >> You need to know even more than that. Aside from the published >> programs, a dealer may have additional price breaks based on volume, etc. >> >> As I said before, you'd need to ask the dealership's accountant, and >> it isn't very likely you'll get the information from them, unless they >> want to lose their job... > > Yes, it's true that knowing the real dealer cost is damn near impossible. > > However, you can come pretty close by finding out the invoice price, all > the factory to dealer incentives that are in place, and all the known > kickbacks that the factory or region is giving the dealers. I know that > in my area, the Toyota dealer is getting 2% holdback, 2% in advertising > subsidy, and 1% called WFR (which is ostensibly to finance their > inventory with their bank). > > The key thing to remember is that "invoice" can easily be $1000 more > than the dealer cost. The dealer isn't losing money when they sell some > vehicles at $500 over their cost. dude, again, the "invoice" is fictional. no money has changed hands with that number on it. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
SMS wrote:
> Siskuwihane wrote: > >> Having worked for a Hertz Licensee, our vehicles were sold to us >> through a dealer and never for 50% of sticker, if it worked that way >> (not saying it doesn't for corporate owned locations but 50% sounds a >> little steep) the employees would have been buying them too. > > It was about 80% of MSRP, and it's gone up. Plus the rental agencies > tend to buy the stripped down vehicles, as well as the vehicles that no > one else wants to buy. Sometimes there are vehicles manufactured solely > for rental car fleets. bullshit. > > The problem appears to be that Jim got ripped off by a dealer at some > time in the recent past, and he actually believed what the car > salesperson told him! why are you making up stories? that's not even vaguely true. you don't understand is that i actually have no problem with a dealer covering their overheads, commissions, advertising, etc., i simply object to this bullshit charade about "dealer invoice" because it's a crock designed to deceive. and evidently successfully so in your case. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
Siskuwihane wrote:
> On Aug 22, 8:48�am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: >> Siskuwihane wrote: >>> On Aug 22, 12:10 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: >>>> SMS wrote: >>>>> Robert11 wrote: >>>>>> Hello, >>>>>> Real amateur when it comes to negotiating for a new car. >>>>>> In my 70's now, not that sharp with negotiating, and would appreciate >>>>>> any opinions on this: >>>>>> I see in the various Forums and newsgroups that an "appropriate" first >>>>>> offer >>>>>> on a new car would be perhaps 500 max. over the Dealers Invoice. >>>>>> Seems to >>>>>> be a magic number. >>>>> Not magic at all. The dealer doesn't pay the manufacturer the "invoice >>>>> price," and you routinely see dealers advertise "under invoice." The >>>>> last two cars I purchased we paid well under invoice. Clearly the dealer >>>>> wasn't selling these vehicles at a loss. Between holdback, factory to >>>>> dealer incentives, and other kickbacks, selling at invoice is very very >>>>> profitable for the dealer. >>>>> You want to go up from dealer cost, not up or down from invoice or MSRP. >>>>> Unfortunately determining dealer cost is very difficult. You need to >>>>> know all the incentives for a specific vehicle in a specific region of >>>>> the country. >>>>> Offer $500 over dealer cost, if you can figure out dealer cost. >>>> $500 over cost doesn't cover overheads, commissions, anything. there's >>>> no way they'd sell for that.- Hide quoted text - >>> If profit (or not) made on the front end won't cover it, profit made >>> on the back end would. Some dealers make more on financing and/or >>> service than sales. >> don't believe it. �all that fancy real estate, and all those sales dudes >> with all their gold jewelry getting fat on $500? �no way. �and there's >> no way the sales dudes get a share of selling you a $900 timing belt >> replacement. > > I don't believe it was stated anywhere that every vehicle was sold at > that price. Not everyone who walks into the dealership knows what they > are doing so vehicles get sold at many different price points. The > fact is cars do get sold at $500 or less over invoice all the time. you don't understand - "invoice" is fictional. even if it sells at "under" invoice, the dealer still has a profit because the /actual/ cost is way lower. > > >> bottom line, the myths about minimal margins in car sales have to be a >> complete crock - otherwise car sales would be mail order or from some >> dirt lot three hours out of town. �basic math.- Hide quoted text - > > And they would be serviced in that same dirt lot or by mail? Financed > from that same dirt lot or by mail? do you believe that the dudes on the sales floor with the gold chains and bad teeth get cross-subsidized by the service department??? |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
On Aug 22, 10:26 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> Siskuwihane wrote: > > On Aug 22, 8:48 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: > >> Siskuwihane wrote: > >>> On Aug 22, 12:10 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: > >>>> SMS wrote: > >>>>> Robert11 wrote: > >>>>>> Hello, > >>>>>> Real amateur when it comes to negotiating for a new car. > >>>>>> In my 70's now, not that sharp with negotiating, and would appreciate > >>>>>> any opinions on this: > >>>>>> I see in the various Forums and newsgroups that an "appropriate" first > >>>>>> offer > >>>>>> on a new car would be perhaps 500 max. over the Dealers Invoice. > >>>>>> Seems to > >>>>>> be a magic number. > >>>>> Not magic at all. The dealer doesn't pay the manufacturer the "invoice > >>>>> price," and you routinely see dealers advertise "under invoice." The > >>>>> last two cars I purchased we paid well under invoice. Clearly the dealer > >>>>> wasn't selling these vehicles at a loss. Between holdback, factory to > >>>>> dealer incentives, and other kickbacks, selling at invoice is very very > >>>>> profitable for the dealer. > >>>>> You want to go up from dealer cost, not up or down from invoice or MSRP. > >>>>> Unfortunately determining dealer cost is very difficult. You need to > >>>>> know all the incentives for a specific vehicle in a specific regionof > >>>>> the country. > >>>>> Offer $500 over dealer cost, if you can figure out dealer cost. > >>>> $500 over cost doesn't cover overheads, commissions, anything. there's > >>>> no way they'd sell for that.- Hide quoted text - > >>> If profit (or not) made on the front end won't cover it, profit made > >>> on the back end would. Some dealers make more on financing and/or > >>> service than sales. > >> don't believe it. all that fancy real estate, and all those sales dudes > >> with all their gold jewelry getting fat on $500? no way. and there's > >> no way the sales dudes get a share of selling you a $900 timing belt > >> replacement. > > > I don't believe it was stated anywhere that every vehicle was sold at > > that price. Not everyone who walks into the dealership knows what they > > are doing so vehicles get sold at many different price points. The > > fact is cars do get sold at $500 or less over invoice all the time. > > you don't understand - "invoice" is fictional. even if it sells at > "under" invoice, the dealer still has a profit because the /actual/ cost > is way lower. > > > > >> bottom line, the myths about minimal margins in car sales have to be a > >> complete crock - otherwise car sales would be mail order or from some > >> dirt lot three hours out of town. basic math.- Hide quoted text - > > > And they would be serviced in that same dirt lot or by mail? Financed > > from that same dirt lot or by mail? > > do you believe that the dudes on the sales floor with the gold chains > and bad teeth get cross-subsidized by the service department???- Hide quoted text - No one made that claim. Sales people are paid for sales. It's much better to go home with $100 in your pocket from a $500 over deal than to go home after working 10 hours with nothing. While these deals do not support the dealership, the back end can and does as has already been explained. As was also stated it doesn't happen everyday, but when it comes to making a sale-vs-no sale, it will happen, especially during slow times. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
Siskuwihane wrote:
> No one made that claim. Sales people are paid for sales. It's much > better to go home with $100 in your pocket from a $500 over deal than > to go home after working 10 hours with nothing. While these deals do > not support the dealership, the back end can and does as has already > been explained. As was also stated it doesn't happen everyday, but > when it comes to making a sale-vs-no sale, it will happen, especially > during slow times. Also remember that the dealer can't tell the factory, "send me only large shipments of the hottest models." They have to take a product mix. When gas was cheap the Odyssey and Pilot were hot they'd have loved to get no Civics and fewer Accords. Now they'd love to get a lot more Civics. But it doesn't work that way. They have to sell the complete line, and if that means moving the dogs off the lot by selling them at very little over what they pay for them, so be it. Eventually supply catches up with demand, so the patient customer doesn't overpay, while the one that simply must buy the hot model as soon as it comes out will subsidize other customers. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
Siskuwihane wrote:
> On Aug 22, 10:26�pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: >> Siskuwihane wrote: >>> On Aug 22, 8:48 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: >>>> Siskuwihane wrote: >>>>> On Aug 22, 12:10 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: >>>>>> SMS wrote: >>>>>>> Robert11 wrote: >>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>> Real amateur when it comes to negotiating for a new car. >>>>>>>> In my 70's now, not that sharp with negotiating, and would appreciate >>>>>>>> any opinions on this: >>>>>>>> I see in the various Forums and newsgroups that an "appropriate" first >>>>>>>> offer >>>>>>>> on a new car would be perhaps 500 max. over the Dealers Invoice. >>>>>>>> Seems to >>>>>>>> be a magic number. >>>>>>> Not magic at all. The dealer doesn't pay the manufacturer the "invoice >>>>>>> price," and you routinely see dealers advertise "under invoice." The >>>>>>> last two cars I purchased we paid well under invoice. Clearly the dealer >>>>>>> wasn't selling these vehicles at a loss. Between holdback, factory to >>>>>>> dealer incentives, and other kickbacks, selling at invoice is very very >>>>>>> profitable for the dealer. >>>>>>> You want to go up from dealer cost, not up or down from invoice or MSRP. >>>>>>> Unfortunately determining dealer cost is very difficult. You need to >>>>>>> know all the incentives for a specific vehicle in a specific region of >>>>>>> the country. >>>>>>> Offer $500 over dealer cost, if you can figure out dealer cost. >>>>>> $500 over cost doesn't cover overheads, commissions, anything. there's >>>>>> no way they'd sell for that.- Hide quoted text - >>>>> If profit (or not) made on the front end won't cover it, profit made >>>>> on the back end would. Some dealers make more on financing and/or >>>>> service than sales. >>>> don't believe it. all that fancy real estate, and all those sales dudes >>>> with all their gold jewelry getting fat on $500? no way. and there's >>>> no way the sales dudes get a share of selling you a $900 timing belt >>>> replacement. >>> I don't believe it was stated anywhere that every vehicle was sold at >>> that price. Not everyone who walks into the dealership knows what they >>> are doing so vehicles get sold at many different price points. The >>> fact is cars do get sold at $500 or less over invoice all the time. >> you don't understand - "invoice" is fictional. �even if it sells at >> "under" invoice, the dealer still has a profit because the /actual/ cost >> is way lower. >> >> >> >>>> bottom line, the myths about minimal margins in car sales have to be a >>>> complete crock - otherwise car sales would be mail order or from some >>>> dirt lot three hours out of town. basic math.- Hide quoted text - >>> And they would be serviced in that same dirt lot or by mail? Financed >>> from that same dirt lot or by mail? >> do you believe that the dudes on the sales floor with the gold chains >> and bad teeth get cross-subsidized by the service department???- Hide quoted text - > > > No one made that claim. Sales people are paid for sales. It's much > better to go home with $100 in your pocket from a $500 over deal than > to go home after working 10 hours with nothing. While these deals do > not support the dealership, the back end can and does as has already > been explained. but it doesn't support the sales people on commission. what incentive do /they/ have to sell for only $100??? > As was also stated it doesn't happen everyday, but > when it comes to making a sale-vs-no sale, it will happen, especially > during slow times. > there's no way you're going to let $20k of inventory go for only $100. that's 0.5% profit. even high volume retailers like a supermarket can't live on margins that skinny. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
On Aug 23, 10:09 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> Siskuwihane wrote: > > On Aug 22, 10:26 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: > >> Siskuwihane wrote: > >>> On Aug 22, 8:48 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: > >>>> Siskuwihane wrote: > >>>>> On Aug 22, 12:10 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: > >>>>>> SMS wrote: > >>>>>>> Robert11 wrote: > >>>>>>>> Hello, > >>>>>>>> Real amateur when it comes to negotiating for a new car. > >>>>>>>> In my 70's now, not that sharp with negotiating, and would appreciate > >>>>>>>> any opinions on this: > >>>>>>>> I see in the various Forums and newsgroups that an "appropriate"first > >>>>>>>> offer > >>>>>>>> on a new car would be perhaps 500 max. over the Dealers Invoice. > >>>>>>>> Seems to > >>>>>>>> be a magic number. > >>>>>>> Not magic at all. The dealer doesn't pay the manufacturer the "invoice > >>>>>>> price," and you routinely see dealers advertise "under invoice." The > >>>>>>> last two cars I purchased we paid well under invoice. Clearly thedealer > >>>>>>> wasn't selling these vehicles at a loss. Between holdback, factory to > >>>>>>> dealer incentives, and other kickbacks, selling at invoice is very very > >>>>>>> profitable for the dealer. > >>>>>>> You want to go up from dealer cost, not up or down from invoice or MSRP. > >>>>>>> Unfortunately determining dealer cost is very difficult. You needto > >>>>>>> know all the incentives for a specific vehicle in a specific region of > >>>>>>> the country. > >>>>>>> Offer $500 over dealer cost, if you can figure out dealer cost. > >>>>>> $500 over cost doesn't cover overheads, commissions, anything. there's > >>>>>> no way they'd sell for that.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>> If profit (or not) made on the front end won't cover it, profit made > >>>>> on the back end would. Some dealers make more on financing and/or > >>>>> service than sales. > >>>> don't believe it. all that fancy real estate, and all those sales dudes > >>>> with all their gold jewelry getting fat on $500? no way. and there's > >>>> no way the sales dudes get a share of selling you a $900 timing belt > >>>> replacement. > >>> I don't believe it was stated anywhere that every vehicle was sold at > >>> that price. Not everyone who walks into the dealership knows what they > >>> are doing so vehicles get sold at many different price points. The > >>> fact is cars do get sold at $500 or less over invoice all the time. > >> you don't understand - "invoice" is fictional. even if it sells at > >> "under" invoice, the dealer still has a profit because the /actual/ cost > >> is way lower. > > >>>> bottom line, the myths about minimal margins in car sales have to bea > >>>> complete crock - otherwise car sales would be mail order or from some > >>>> dirt lot three hours out of town. basic math.- Hide quoted text - > >>> And they would be serviced in that same dirt lot or by mail? Financed > >>> from that same dirt lot or by mail? > >> do you believe that the dudes on the sales floor with the gold chains > >> and bad teeth get cross-subsidized by the service department???- Hide quoted text - > > > No one made that claim. Sales people are paid for sales. It's much > > better to go home with $100 in your pocket from a $500 over deal than > > to go home after working 10 hours with nothing. While these deals do > > not support the dealership, the back end can and does as has already > > been explained. > > but it doesn't support the sales people on commission. Once again, no one made that claim. It's been explained already. >what incentive do /they/ have to sell for only $100??? Are you just looking to argue? No one is saying that ALL sales result in a $100 commission, but when it's SLOW, it's better to have made $100 than go home after working all day empty handed. There are days you'll make a lot of profit on a car and the commission that goes with it and days you won't, it's stated in what you quoted below. > > As was also stated it doesn't happen everyday, but > > when it comes to making a sale-vs-no sale, it will happen, especially > > during slow times. > > there's no way you're going to let $20k of inventory go for only $100. > that's 0.5% profit. even high volume retailers like a supermarket can't > live on margins that skinny. Last time, profit is also made on the back end (lose out front, gain it on the back end) and in service, and the small profit sale deals do not happen every day. The end. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
Siskuwihane wrote:
> On Aug 23, 10:09�am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: >> Siskuwihane wrote: >>> On Aug 22, 10:26 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: >>>> Siskuwihane wrote: >>>>> On Aug 22, 8:48 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: >>>>>> Siskuwihane wrote: >>>>>>> On Aug 22, 12:10 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: >>>>>>>> SMS wrote: >>>>>>>>> Robert11 wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>> Real amateur when it comes to negotiating for a new car. >>>>>>>>>> In my 70's now, not that sharp with negotiating, and would appreciate >>>>>>>>>> any opinions on this: >>>>>>>>>> I see in the various Forums and newsgroups that an "appropriate" first >>>>>>>>>> offer >>>>>>>>>> on a new car would be perhaps 500 max. over the Dealers Invoice. >>>>>>>>>> Seems to >>>>>>>>>> be a magic number. >>>>>>>>> Not magic at all. The dealer doesn't pay the manufacturer the "invoice >>>>>>>>> price," and you routinely see dealers advertise "under invoice." The >>>>>>>>> last two cars I purchased we paid well under invoice. Clearly the dealer >>>>>>>>> wasn't selling these vehicles at a loss. Between holdback, factory to >>>>>>>>> dealer incentives, and other kickbacks, selling at invoice is very very >>>>>>>>> profitable for the dealer. >>>>>>>>> You want to go up from dealer cost, not up or down from invoice or MSRP. >>>>>>>>> Unfortunately determining dealer cost is very difficult. You need to >>>>>>>>> know all the incentives for a specific vehicle in a specific region of >>>>>>>>> the country. >>>>>>>>> Offer $500 over dealer cost, if you can figure out dealer cost. >>>>>>>> $500 over cost doesn't cover overheads, commissions, anything. there's >>>>>>>> no way they'd sell for that.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>> If profit (or not) made on the front end won't cover it, profit made >>>>>>> on the back end would. Some dealers make more on financing and/or >>>>>>> service than sales. >>>>>> don't believe it. all that fancy real estate, and all those sales dudes >>>>>> with all their gold jewelry getting fat on $500? no way. and there's >>>>>> no way the sales dudes get a share of selling you a $900 timing belt >>>>>> replacement. >>>>> I don't believe it was stated anywhere that every vehicle was sold at >>>>> that price. Not everyone who walks into the dealership knows what they >>>>> are doing so vehicles get sold at many different price points. The >>>>> fact is cars do get sold at $500 or less over invoice all the time. >>>> you don't understand - "invoice" is fictional. even if it sells at >>>> "under" invoice, the dealer still has a profit because the /actual/ cost >>>> is way lower. >>>>>> bottom line, the myths about minimal margins in car sales have to be a >>>>>> complete crock - otherwise car sales would be mail order or from some >>>>>> dirt lot three hours out of town. basic math.- Hide quoted text - >>>>> And they would be serviced in that same dirt lot or by mail? Financed >>>>> from that same dirt lot or by mail? >>>> do you believe that the dudes on the sales floor with the gold chains >>>> and bad teeth get cross-subsidized by the service department???- Hide quoted text - >>> No one made that claim. Sales people are paid for sales. It's much >>> better to go home with $100 in your pocket from a $500 over deal than >>> to go home after working 10 hours with nothing. While these deals do >>> not support the dealership, the back end can and does as has already >>> been explained. >> but it doesn't support the sales people on commission. � > > Once again, no one made that claim. It's been explained already. > >> what incentive do /they/ have to sell for only $100??? > > Are you just looking to argue? no, i just want to inject some commercial reality into what is clearly the very non-commercial world in which you live. > No one is saying that ALL sales result > in a $100 commission, but when it's SLOW, it's better to have made > $100 than go home after working all day empty handed. There are days > you'll make a lot of profit on a car and the commission that goes with > it and days you won't, it's stated in what you quoted below. dude, when there's $20k worth of car sitting on the lot, with all those real estate, advertising, insurance, tax, admin staff, phone bills and commission overheads biting your ass, there's absolutely no freakin' way you're going to let that thing go for only $100. absolutely no way. > >>> As was also stated it doesn't happen everyday, but >>> when it comes to making a sale-vs-no sale, it will happen, especially >>> during slow times. >> there's no way you're going to let $20k of inventory go for only $100. >> that's 0.5% profit. �even high volume retailers like a supermarket can't >> live on margins that skinny. > > Last time, profit is also made on the back end (lose out front, gain > it on the back end) and in service, > and the small profit sale deals do not happen every day. The end. you don't understand. the dealer makes profit on sales. not $100 profit. big multi-thousand dollar profit. every time. that's where all huge-ass sales real estate gets paid. all the multi-page advertising in your local paper gets paid. all the tv ads get paid. again, i have no problem with that, but i do object to the deception about "dealer invoice". and right now, i strongly object to the poor fool[s] that grimly cling to this deception as their way of dealing with reality. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
On Aug 23, 11:09 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> Siskuwihane wrote: > > On Aug 23, 10:09 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: > >> Siskuwihane wrote: > >>> On Aug 22, 10:26 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: > >>>> Siskuwihane wrote: > >>>>> On Aug 22, 8:48 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: > >>>>>> Siskuwihane wrote: > >>>>>>> On Aug 22, 12:10 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: > >>>>>>>> SMS wrote: > >>>>>>>>> Robert11 wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> Hello, > >>>>>>>>>> Real amateur when it comes to negotiating for a new car. > >>>>>>>>>> In my 70's now, not that sharp with negotiating, and would appreciate > >>>>>>>>>> any opinions on this: > >>>>>>>>>> I see in the various Forums and newsgroups that an "appropriate" first > >>>>>>>>>> offer > >>>>>>>>>> on a new car would be perhaps 500 max. over the Dealers Invoice. > >>>>>>>>>> Seems to > >>>>>>>>>> be a magic number. > >>>>>>>>> Not magic at all. The dealer doesn't pay the manufacturer the "invoice > >>>>>>>>> price," and you routinely see dealers advertise "under invoice." The > >>>>>>>>> last two cars I purchased we paid well under invoice. Clearly the dealer > >>>>>>>>> wasn't selling these vehicles at a loss. Between holdback, factory to > >>>>>>>>> dealer incentives, and other kickbacks, selling at invoice is very very > >>>>>>>>> profitable for the dealer. > >>>>>>>>> You want to go up from dealer cost, not up or down from invoiceor MSRP. > >>>>>>>>> Unfortunately determining dealer cost is very difficult. You need to > >>>>>>>>> know all the incentives for a specific vehicle in a specific region of > >>>>>>>>> the country. > >>>>>>>>> Offer $500 over dealer cost, if you can figure out dealer cost. > >>>>>>>> $500 over cost doesn't cover overheads, commissions, anything. there's > >>>>>>>> no way they'd sell for that.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>> If profit (or not) made on the front end won't cover it, profit made > >>>>>>> on the back end would. Some dealers make more on financing and/or > >>>>>>> service than sales. > >>>>>> don't believe it. all that fancy real estate, and all those sales dudes > >>>>>> with all their gold jewelry getting fat on $500? no way. and there's > >>>>>> no way the sales dudes get a share of selling you a $900 timing belt > >>>>>> replacement. > >>>>> I don't believe it was stated anywhere that every vehicle was sold at > >>>>> that price. Not everyone who walks into the dealership knows what they > >>>>> are doing so vehicles get sold at many different price points. The > >>>>> fact is cars do get sold at $500 or less over invoice all the time. > >>>> you don't understand - "invoice" is fictional. even if it sells at > >>>> "under" invoice, the dealer still has a profit because the /actual/ cost > >>>> is way lower. > >>>>>> bottom line, the myths about minimal margins in car sales have to be a > >>>>>> complete crock - otherwise car sales would be mail order or from some > >>>>>> dirt lot three hours out of town. basic math.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>> And they would be serviced in that same dirt lot or by mail? Financed > >>>>> from that same dirt lot or by mail? > >>>> do you believe that the dudes on the sales floor with the gold chains > >>>> and bad teeth get cross-subsidized by the service department???- Hide quoted text - > >>> No one made that claim. Sales people are paid for sales. It's much > >>> better to go home with $100 in your pocket from a $500 over deal than > >>> to go home after working 10 hours with nothing. While these deals do > >>> not support the dealership, the back end can and does as has already > >>> been explained. > >> but it doesn't support the sales people on commission. > > > Once again, no one made that claim. It's been explained already. > > >> what incentive do /they/ have to sell for only $100??? > > > Are you just looking to argue? > > no, i just want to inject some commercial reality into what is clearly > the very non-commercial world in which you live. > > > No one is saying that ALL sales result > > in a $100 commission, but when it's SLOW, it's better to have made > > $100 than go home after working all day empty handed. There are days > > you'll make a lot of profit on a car and the commission that goes with > > it and days you won't, it's stated in what you quoted below. > > dude, when there's $20k worth of car sitting on the lot, with all those > real estate, advertising, insurance, tax, admin staff, phone bills and > commission overheads biting your ass, there's absolutely no freakin' way > you're going to let that thing go for only $100. absolutely no way. > > > > >>> As was also stated it doesn't happen everyday, but > >>> when it comes to making a sale-vs-no sale, it will happen, especially > >>> during slow times. > >> there's no way you're going to let $20k of inventory go for only $100. > >> that's 0.5% profit. even high volume retailers like a supermarket can't > >> live on margins that skinny. > > > Last time, profit is also made on the back end (lose out front, gain > > it on the back end) and in service, > > and the small profit sale deals do not happen every day. The end. > > you don't understand. the dealer makes profit on sales. not $100 > profit. big multi-thousand dollar profit. every time. that's where > all huge-ass sales real estate gets paid. all the multi-page > advertising in your local paper gets paid. all the tv ads get paid. No, you don't understand. $100 was the salepersons profit, the dealer made $400+, then they made money on financing, extended warranty or GAP insurance, credit life insurance , trade-in re-sale, 3000 mile "service" , "dealer recommended maintenance" , parts, warranty work, "the next dummy who paid full retail" , and on and on. The consumers job is to get that $500 over deal and walk on the rest. Note the part at the end of this quote where it says "the profits from used car sales and from parts and service are what keep the dealership in business." http://autos.aol.com/article/general...11143309990001 "First of all, that revenue mix significantly changed over the last several years, especially for Ford, GM and Chrysler franchise dealers. Consumers spend a lot of time haggling over the price of a new car, but new car sales aren't what they used to be in terms of the role they play in the car dealers' revenue. In the past -- during more flush times -- the profits from new car sales were much greater than they are now, said Paul Taylor, chief economist for the National Auto Dealers Association (NADA), based in McLean, Va. In fact, due in part to heavy incentives, the latest stats show that car dealers are actually losing money on new car sales. "On net, the average new car dealer is losing about $30 per new car sold through June of this year, and that is inclusive of new car finance and insurance revenue," Taylor said. "So, during difficult years for new car sales, like this year, the profits from used car sales and from parts and service are what keep the dealership in business." Then there is this tidbit, "Dealer financing is another area where a new car dealer can make exorbitant amounts of money, sometimes more than the profit on the sale of the car itself." |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
Siskuwihane wrote:
> On Aug 23, 11:09�am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: >> Siskuwihane wrote: >>> On Aug 23, 10:09 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: >>>> Siskuwihane wrote: >>>>> On Aug 22, 10:26 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: >>>>>> Siskuwihane wrote: >>>>>>> On Aug 22, 8:48 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: >>>>>>>> Siskuwihane wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 12:10 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> SMS wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Robert11 wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>>> Real amateur when it comes to negotiating for a new car. >>>>>>>>>>>> In my 70's now, not that sharp with negotiating, and would appreciate >>>>>>>>>>>> any opinions on this: >>>>>>>>>>>> I see in the various Forums and newsgroups that an "appropriate" first >>>>>>>>>>>> offer >>>>>>>>>>>> on a new car would be perhaps 500 max. over the Dealers Invoice. >>>>>>>>>>>> Seems to >>>>>>>>>>>> be a magic number. >>>>>>>>>>> Not magic at all. The dealer doesn't pay the manufacturer the "invoice >>>>>>>>>>> price," and you routinely see dealers advertise "under invoice." The >>>>>>>>>>> last two cars I purchased we paid well under invoice. Clearly the dealer >>>>>>>>>>> wasn't selling these vehicles at a loss. Between holdback, factory to >>>>>>>>>>> dealer incentives, and other kickbacks, selling at invoice is very very >>>>>>>>>>> profitable for the dealer. >>>>>>>>>>> You want to go up from dealer cost, not up or down from invoice or MSRP. >>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately determining dealer cost is very difficult. You need to >>>>>>>>>>> know all the incentives for a specific vehicle in a specific region of >>>>>>>>>>> the country. >>>>>>>>>>> Offer $500 over dealer cost, if you can figure out dealer cost. >>>>>>>>>> $500 over cost doesn't cover overheads, commissions, anything. there's >>>>>>>>>> no way they'd sell for that.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>> If profit (or not) made on the front end won't cover it, profit made >>>>>>>>> on the back end would. Some dealers make more on financing and/or >>>>>>>>> service than sales. >>>>>>>> don't believe it. all that fancy real estate, and all those sales dudes >>>>>>>> with all their gold jewelry getting fat on $500? no way. and there's >>>>>>>> no way the sales dudes get a share of selling you a $900 timing belt >>>>>>>> replacement. >>>>>>> I don't believe it was stated anywhere that every vehicle was sold at >>>>>>> that price. Not everyone who walks into the dealership knows what they >>>>>>> are doing so vehicles get sold at many different price points. The >>>>>>> fact is cars do get sold at $500 or less over invoice all the time. >>>>>> you don't understand - "invoice" is fictional. even if it sells at >>>>>> "under" invoice, the dealer still has a profit because the /actual/ cost >>>>>> is way lower. >>>>>>>> bottom line, the myths about minimal margins in car sales have to be a >>>>>>>> complete crock - otherwise car sales would be mail order or from some >>>>>>>> dirt lot three hours out of town. basic math.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>> And they would be serviced in that same dirt lot or by mail? Financed >>>>>>> from that same dirt lot or by mail? >>>>>> do you believe that the dudes on the sales floor with the gold chains >>>>>> and bad teeth get cross-subsidized by the service department???- Hide quoted text - >>>>> No one made that claim. Sales people are paid for sales. It's much >>>>> better to go home with $100 in your pocket from a $500 over deal than >>>>> to go home after working 10 hours with nothing. While these deals do >>>>> not support the dealership, the back end can and does as has already >>>>> been explained. >>>> but it doesn't support the sales people on commission. >>> Once again, no one made that claim. It's been explained already. >>>> what incentive do /they/ have to sell for only $100??? >>> Are you just looking to argue? >> no, i just want to inject some commercial reality into what is clearly >> the very non-commercial world in which you live. >> >>> No one is saying that ALL sales result >>> in a $100 commission, but when it's SLOW, it's better to have made >>> $100 than go home after working all day empty handed. There are days >>> you'll make a lot of profit on a car and the commission that goes with >>> it and days you won't, it's stated in what you quoted below. >> dude, when there's $20k worth of car sitting on the lot, with all those >> real estate, advertising, insurance, tax, admin staff, phone bills and >> commission overheads biting your ass, there's absolutely no freakin' way >> you're going to let that thing go for only $100. �absolutely no way. >> >> >> >>>>> As was also stated it doesn't happen everyday, but >>>>> when it comes to making a sale-vs-no sale, it will happen, especially >>>>> during slow times. >>>> there's no way you're going to let $20k of inventory go for only $100. >>>> that's 0.5% profit. even high volume retailers like a supermarket can't >>>> live on margins that skinny. >>> Last time, profit is also made on the back end (lose out front, gain >>> it on the back end) and in service, >>> and the small profit sale deals do not happen every day. The end. >> you don't understand. �the dealer makes profit on sales. �not $100 >> profit. �big multi-thousand dollar profit. �every time. �that's where >> all huge-ass sales real estate gets paid. �all the multi-page >> advertising in your local paper gets paid. �all the tv ads get paid. > > No, you don't understand. > > $100 was the salepersons profit, the dealer made $400+, then they made > money on financing, extended warranty or GAP insurance, credit life > insurance , trade-in re-sale, 3000 mile "service" , "dealer > recommended maintenance" , parts, warranty work, "the next dummy who > paid full retail" , and on and on. The consumers job is to get that > $500 over deal and walk on the rest. > > Note the part at the end of this quote where it says "the profits from > used car sales and from parts and service are what keep the dealership > in business." > > > http://autos.aol.com/article/general...11143309990001 > > "First of all, that revenue mix significantly changed over the last > several years, especially for Ford, GM and Chrysler franchise dealers. > Consumers spend a lot of time haggling over the price of a new car, > but new car sales aren't what they used to be in terms of the role > they play in the car dealers' revenue. In the past -- during more > flush times -- the profits from new car sales were much greater than > they are now, said Paul Taylor, chief economist for the National Auto > Dealers Association (NADA), based in McLean, Va. In fact, due in part > to heavy incentives, the latest stats show that car dealers are > actually losing money on new car sales. > > "On net, the average new car dealer is losing about $30 per new car > sold through June of this year, and that is inclusive of new car > finance and insurance revenue," Taylor said. "So, during difficult > years for new car sales, like this year, the profits from used car > sales and from parts and service are what keep the dealership in > business." > > > > Then there is this tidbit, > > "Dealer financing is another area where a new car dealer can make > exorbitant amounts of money, sometimes more than the profit on the > sale of the car itself." > > do you know what "p.r." is? do you know how "news" gets placed? i do because i've been involved in it. and what makes it to print is absolutely no guarantee of accuracy. especially when there is a concerted effort to "reposition" something. again, i know this from personal experience from a repositioning in which i was involved. i also have finance experience, and again, there's no way a $20k vehicle's being sold with 0.5% mark-up. now, you go away and believe your little propaganda stories so it makes you feel warm and fuzzy about what a great deal you negotiated. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
On Aug 23, 8:29 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> Siskuwihane wrote: > > On Aug 23, 11:09 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: > >> Siskuwihane wrote: > >>> On Aug 23, 10:09 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: > >>>> Siskuwihane wrote: > >>>>> On Aug 22, 10:26 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: > >>>>>> Siskuwihane wrote: > >>>>>>> On Aug 22, 8:48 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: > >>>>>>>> Siskuwihane wrote: > >>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 12:10 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> SMS wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> Robert11 wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, > >>>>>>>>>>>> Real amateur when it comes to negotiating for a new car. > >>>>>>>>>>>> In my 70's now, not that sharp with negotiating, and would appreciate > >>>>>>>>>>>> any opinions on this: > >>>>>>>>>>>> I see in the various Forums and newsgroups that an "appropriate" first > >>>>>>>>>>>> offer > >>>>>>>>>>>> on a new car would be perhaps 500 max. over the Dealers Invoice. > >>>>>>>>>>>> Seems to > >>>>>>>>>>>> be a magic number. > >>>>>>>>>>> Not magic at all. The dealer doesn't pay the manufacturer the"invoice > >>>>>>>>>>> price," and you routinely see dealers advertise "under invoice." The > >>>>>>>>>>> last two cars I purchased we paid well under invoice. Clearlythe dealer > >>>>>>>>>>> wasn't selling these vehicles at a loss. Between holdback, factory to > >>>>>>>>>>> dealer incentives, and other kickbacks, selling at invoice isvery very > >>>>>>>>>>> profitable for the dealer. > >>>>>>>>>>> You want to go up from dealer cost, not up or down from invoice or MSRP. > >>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately determining dealer cost is very difficult. You need to > >>>>>>>>>>> know all the incentives for a specific vehicle in a specific region of > >>>>>>>>>>> the country. > >>>>>>>>>>> Offer $500 over dealer cost, if you can figure out dealer cost. > >>>>>>>>>> $500 over cost doesn't cover overheads, commissions, anything.there's > >>>>>>>>>> no way they'd sell for that.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>> If profit (or not) made on the front end won't cover it, profitmade > >>>>>>>>> on the back end would. Some dealers make more on financing and/or > >>>>>>>>> service than sales. > >>>>>>>> don't believe it. all that fancy real estate, and all those sales dudes > >>>>>>>> with all their gold jewelry getting fat on $500? no way. and there's > >>>>>>>> no way the sales dudes get a share of selling you a $900 timing belt > >>>>>>>> replacement. > >>>>>>> I don't believe it was stated anywhere that every vehicle was sold at > >>>>>>> that price. Not everyone who walks into the dealership knows whatthey > >>>>>>> are doing so vehicles get sold at many different price points. The > >>>>>>> fact is cars do get sold at $500 or less over invoice all the time. > >>>>>> you don't understand - "invoice" is fictional. even if it sells at > >>>>>> "under" invoice, the dealer still has a profit because the /actual/ cost > >>>>>> is way lower. > >>>>>>>> bottom line, the myths about minimal margins in car sales have to be a > >>>>>>>> complete crock - otherwise car sales would be mail order or fromsome > >>>>>>>> dirt lot three hours out of town. basic math.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>> And they would be serviced in that same dirt lot or by mail? Financed > >>>>>>> from that same dirt lot or by mail? > >>>>>> do you believe that the dudes on the sales floor with the gold chains > >>>>>> and bad teeth get cross-subsidized by the service department???- Hide quoted text - > >>>>> No one made that claim. Sales people are paid for sales. It's much > >>>>> better to go home with $100 in your pocket from a $500 over deal than > >>>>> to go home after working 10 hours with nothing. While these deals do > >>>>> not support the dealership, the back end can and does as has already > >>>>> been explained. > >>>> but it doesn't support the sales people on commission. > >>> Once again, no one made that claim. It's been explained already. > >>>> what incentive do /they/ have to sell for only $100??? > >>> Are you just looking to argue? > >> no, i just want to inject some commercial reality into what is clearly > >> the very non-commercial world in which you live. > > >>> No one is saying that ALL sales result > >>> in a $100 commission, but when it's SLOW, it's better to have made > >>> $100 than go home after working all day empty handed. There are days > >>> you'll make a lot of profit on a car and the commission that goes with > >>> it and days you won't, it's stated in what you quoted below. > >> dude, when there's $20k worth of car sitting on the lot, with all those > >> real estate, advertising, insurance, tax, admin staff, phone bills and > >> commission overheads biting your ass, there's absolutely no freakin' way > >> you're going to let that thing go for only $100. absolutely no way. > > >>>>> As was also stated it doesn't happen everyday, but > >>>>> when it comes to making a sale-vs-no sale, it will happen, especially > >>>>> during slow times. > >>>> there's no way you're going to let $20k of inventory go for only $100. > >>>> that's 0.5% profit. even high volume retailers like a supermarket can't > >>>> live on margins that skinny. > >>> Last time, profit is also made on the back end (lose out front, gain > >>> it on the back end) and in service, > >>> and the small profit sale deals do not happen every day. The end. > >> you don't understand. the dealer makes profit on sales. not $100 > >> profit. big multi-thousand dollar profit. every time. that's where > >> all huge-ass sales real estate gets paid. all the multi-page > >> advertising in your local paper gets paid. all the tv ads get paid. > > > No, you don't understand. > > > $100 was the salepersons profit, the dealer made $400+, then they made > > money on financing, extended warranty or GAP insurance, credit life > > insurance , trade-in re-sale, 3000 mile "service" , "dealer > > recommended maintenance" , parts, warranty work, "the next dummy who > > paid full retail" , and on and on. The consumers job is to get that > > $500 over deal and walk on the rest. > > > Note the part at the end of this quote where it says "the profits from > > used car sales and from parts and service are what keep the dealership > > in business." > > >http://autos.aol.com/article/general...aler-is-run/20... > > > "First of all, that revenue mix significantly changed over the last > > several years, especially for Ford, GM and Chrysler franchise dealers. > > Consumers spend a lot of time haggling over the price of a new car, > > but new car sales aren't what they used to be in terms of the role > > they play in the car dealers' revenue. In the past -- during more > > flush times -- the profits from new car sales were much greater than > > they are now, said Paul Taylor, chief economist for the National Auto > > Dealers Association (NADA), based in McLean, Va. In fact, due in part > > to heavy incentives, the latest stats show that car dealers are > > actually losing money on new car sales. > > > "On net, the average new car dealer is losing about $30 per new car > > sold through June of this year, and that is inclusive of new car > > finance and insurance revenue," Taylor said. "So, during difficult > > years for new car sales, like this year, the profits from used car > > sales and from parts and service are what keep the dealership in > > business." > > > Then there is this tidbit, > > > "Dealer financing is another area where a new car dealer can make > > exorbitant amounts of money, sometimes more than the profit on the > > sale of the car itself." > > do you know what "p.r." is? do you know how "news" gets placed? i do > because i've been involved in it. and what makes it to print is > absolutely no guarantee of accuracy. I know what you mean, I recently saw a claim that rental car companies only pay 50% of sticker for a new car and since I've been involved in it, I knew it was a very inaccurate staement. >especially when there is a > concerted effort to "reposition" something. again, i know this from > personal experience from a repositioning in which i was involved. i > also have finance experience, and again, there's no way a $20k vehicle's > being sold with 0.5% mark-up. > now, you go away and believe your little propaganda stories so it makes > you feel warm and fuzzy about what a great deal you negotiated.- Hide quoted text - I never buy new and never mentioned any deals I had (or didn't). Must be another example of something being inaccurate. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
In article <f9WdnRNIr-o2Ni3VnZ2dnUVZ_uGdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote: > do you know what "p.r." is? do you know how "news" gets placed? i do > because i've been involved in it. and what makes it to print is > absolutely no guarantee of accuracy. especially when there is a > concerted effort to "reposition" something. "It's not a station wagon! It's an SUV!" "It's not an SUV! It's a crossover!" |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
Robert11 wrote:
> Hello, > > Real amateur when it comes to negotiating for a new car. > In my 70's now, not that sharp with negotiating, and would appreciate any > opinions on this: > > I see in the various Forums and newsgroups that an "appropriate" first offer > on a new car would be perhaps 500 max. over the Dealers Invoice. Seems to > be a magic number. > > How is the Dest. charge handled ? > > Would this 500 over invoice offer figure include the destination charge > which seems to run about 700 these days, or is the dest charge (usually) > added on to whatever price you and the dealer agree upon ? > > Thanks, > B. > > Some required reading for buying a car: http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying...6/page001.html http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying...2/article.html http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying...6/page008.html a |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
Siskuwihane wrote:
> I know what you mean, I recently saw a claim that rental car companies > only pay 50% of sticker for a new car > and since I've been involved in it, I knew it was a very inaccurate > staement. >> now, you go away and believe your little propaganda stories so it makes >> you feel warm and fuzzy about what a great deal you negotiated.- Hide quoted text - > I never buy new and never mentioned any deals I had (or didn't). Must > be another example of something being inaccurate. Jim actually revealed another common misconception regarding car buying, that of the "0.5%" mark-up. Dealers would be quite happy with 0.5% over dealer cost on vehicles that are in sufficient supply. He's a source of incorrect information on many different subjects. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
a wrote:
> Some required reading for buying a car: > > http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying...6/page001.html > > http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying...2/article.html > > http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying...6/page008.html Also, don't trust the dealer for the "invoice" price. I saw someone mention in a Toyota forum that the dealer had an "invoice" that showed additional fees for TDA (advertising), holdback, and WFR. In reality these are rebates to the dealer from the manufacturer, not additional costs to the dealer. The dealer does contribute to regional advertising, which is what the TDA fee from Toyota is intended to subsidize. The true invoice pricing is easily available on-line. Once you know the invoice you can work backwards to figure out the dealer cost (somewhat, since you don't know what additional factory to dealer incentives are in place). The Edmund's TMV prices are much higher than you ever have to pay. Also, what Jim doesn't understand is that the invoice price is much more than the dealer pays for the vehicle, something that Edmund's makes very clear, "the invoice price is almost always higher than the amount the dealer actually ends up paying to the manufacturer. This results from a variety of discounts offered to the dealer that do not appear on the invoice." That's why invoice price is really the defacto retail price in many areas. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
SMS wrote:
> Siskuwihane wrote: > >> I know what you mean, I recently saw a claim that rental car companies >> only pay 50% of sticker for a new car >> and since I've been involved in it, I knew it was a very inaccurate >> staement. > >>> now, you go away and believe your little propaganda stories so it makes >>> you feel warm and fuzzy about what a great deal you negotiated.- Hide >>> quoted text - > >> I never buy new and never mentioned any deals I had (or didn't). Must >> be another example of something being inaccurate. > > Jim actually revealed another common misconception regarding car buying, > that of the "0.5%" mark-up. Dealers would be quite happy with 0.5% over > dealer cost on vehicles that are in sufficient supply. not true. business 101. simply can't cover overheads for $100. > > He's a source of incorrect information on many different subjects. sure - i'm a massive bullshitter. but getting back on topic, let's do a little math: let's say a dealer has 6 sales dudes. let's say each one grosses $50k - to be conservative. to make $50k a year, that's 500 vehicles with 0.5% markup per year, or say 10 per week. for 6 sales dudes, that's 60 cars a week. that's about 6 transporter trucks per week. and that's with 100% of the net going to the sales dudes. now, let's say the sales dude keeps 50% of the net, the rest going to the dealer. that means 120 cars a week, 12 transporters per week, and out of that net $6000 [50% x 120 x $100], the dealer has to pay at least two on staff admins at say $1000 per week. then the kids that do the detailing of the new inventory. that's another $1000 per week, minimum. then real estate and/or loans, that will be another $2000/$3000 per month minimum. then insurance, utilities, advertising, etc. bottom line, you go ahead and believe these guys only make 0.5% markup. but you'll be deluding yourself because the math just doesn't work. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
SMS wrote:
> a wrote: > >> Some required reading for buying a car: >> >> http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying...6/page001.html >> >> http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying...2/article.html >> >> http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying...6/page008.html > > > Also, don't trust the dealer for the "invoice" price. I saw someone > mention in a Toyota forum that the dealer had an "invoice" that showed > additional fees for TDA (advertising), holdback, and WFR. In reality > these are rebates to the dealer from the manufacturer, not additional > costs to the dealer. The dealer does contribute to regional advertising, > which is what the TDA fee from Toyota is intended to subsidize. > > The true invoice pricing is easily available on-line. Once you know the > invoice you can work backwards to figure out the dealer cost (somewhat, > since you don't know what additional factory to dealer incentives are in > place). > > The Edmund's TMV prices are much higher than you ever have to pay. > > Also, what Jim doesn't understand is that the invoice price is much more > than the dealer pays for the vehicle, eh? that's what /i/ have been telling /you/. > something that Edmund's makes very > clear, "the invoice price is almost always higher than the amount the > dealer actually ends up paying to the manufacturer. This results from a > variety of discounts offered to the dealer that do not appear on the > invoice." duh. > That's why invoice price is really the defacto retail price in > many areas. no, it's because the schmucks that don't understand pricing look at "dealer invoice", pay a little over, then think they got a good deal because "dealer invoice" set their pricing expectations. |
Re: Sr. Citizen's Question On Car Pricing ?
On Aug 26, 12:02 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> SMS wrote: > > Siskuwihane wrote: > > >> I know what you mean, I recently saw a claim that rental car companies > >> only pay 50% of sticker for a new car > >> and since I've been involved in it, I knew it was a very inaccurate > >> staement. > > >>> now, you go away and believe your little propaganda stories so it makes > >>> you feel warm and fuzzy about what a great deal you negotiated.- Hide > >>> quoted text - > > >> I never buy new and never mentioned any deals I had (or didn't). Must > >> be another example of something being inaccurate. > > > Jim actually revealed another common misconception regarding car buying, > > that of the "0.5%" mark-up. Dealers would be quite happy with 0.5% over > > dealer cost on vehicles that are in sufficient supply. > > not true. business 101. simply can't cover overheads for $100. Why do you keep spouting off about a $100 deal when NO ONE mentioned or suggested it? Do you think making things up will help your argument? You also ignore the fact that several times it was posted that these types of deal are not the norm, but again, you just want to ignore anything else being stated. > > > > > He's a source of incorrect information on many different subjects. > > sure - i'm a massive bullshitter. About the $100 deal, yes you are. > but getting back on topic, let's do a little math: > > let's say a dealer has 6 sales dudes. let's say each one grosses $50k - > to be conservative. to make $50k a year, that's 500 vehicles with 0.5% > markup per year, or say 10 per week. for 6 sales dudes, that's 60 cars > a week. that's about 6 transporter trucks per week. and that's with > 100% of the net going to the sales dudes. > > now, let's say the sales dude keeps 50% of the net, the rest going to > the dealer. that means 120 cars a week, 12 transporters per week, and > out of that net $6000 [50% x 120 x $100], the dealer has to pay at least > two on staff admins at say $1000 per week. then the kids that do the > detailing of the new inventory. that's another $1000 per week, minimum.. > then real estate and/or loans, that will be another $2000/$3000 per > month minimum. then insurance, utilities, advertising, etc. As expected, you also ignore the back end, a source of revenue that is very profitable, sometimes more so than an individual car sale. > bottom line, you go ahead and believe these guys only make 0.5% markup. > but you'll be deluding yourself because the math just doesn't work. Once again, the BS flies when you state they "only" make 0.5% markup, sometimes they do, more often they don't. Over and over that has been stated and yet you continue as if EVERY vehicle was sold at the same markup. You're either very stupid or just being an ass (troll), past experience says it's the latter. |
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