Strange start problem...is my logic okay?
 

I have a 1986 Accord LX-I with manual transmission.

When the car is cold, it starts fine, and it always runs fine. It likes
to idle at 2000rpm sometimes, but there's no hesitation or weirdness in
its operation.

When the car is warmed up, it will crank and crank and crank for quite
some time before it starts...kinda like running out a flood on a car
with a carburetor.

A strange one: if you push-start the car when it's warm, it fires right
up. But I totally trashed the left inner CV--tearing a hole in the oil
pan in the process--when I did that once, so no more of that.

So I thought, if I pull the fuel pump fuse and crank the engine, maybe
it will start. Pull the fuse, the car runs for about three
seconds...which is all you'd expect to get. Stick the fuse back in, car
sometimes starts and sometimes does not. But you do the fuse in-out
thing, and eventually the car starts.

As an experiment, I bought a 30-amp automotive switch from RadioShack
and wired it into the fuel pump fuse circuit. This works pretty
well...if you turn the fuel pump on, crank the car for a few seconds,
then turn the fuel pump off, it fires. Immediately start pumping the gas
and turning the pump on and off, and within 20 seconds the car will be
running. And like I said, once it is running it runs great.

I think my coolant-temperature sensor (aka "thermowax sensor") is
screwed up, always reporting that the engine is cold. This device
probably only gets read at startup--if the engine's cold, dump more gas
in and it will fire right up; if you dump more gas in when it's hot the
engine floods. I'm thinkin' the mixture-enrichment cycle only lasts
about ten to fifteen seconds because once I'm out of that period, the
engine runs stably in a very short period of time.

I've already changed the fuel injector seals, and they needed it. I
changed the thermostat because the car liked to overheat, and that also
seemed to make it start a little easier. Would it be good to start
hitting junkyards looking for a new thermowax sensor? I know the dealer
price on one will be astronomical.

--jm

Re: Strange start problem...is my logic okay?
 

Jim Mowreader wrote:
> I have a 1986 Accord LX-I with manual transmission.
>
> When the car is cold, it starts fine, and it always runs fine. It likes
> to idle at 2000rpm sometimes, but there's no hesitation or weirdness in
> its operation.
>
> When the car is warmed up, it will crank and crank and crank for quite
> some time before it starts...kinda like running out a flood on a car
> with a carburetor.
>
> A strange one: if you push-start the car when it's warm, it fires right
> up. But I totally trashed the left inner CV--tearing a hole in the oil
> pan in the process--when I did that once, so no more of that.
>
> So I thought, if I pull the fuel pump fuse and crank the engine, maybe
> it will start. Pull the fuse, the car runs for about three
> seconds...which is all you'd expect to get. Stick the fuse back in, car
> sometimes starts and sometimes does not. But you do the fuse in-out
> thing, and eventually the car starts.
>
> As an experiment, I bought a 30-amp automotive switch from RadioShack
> and wired it into the fuel pump fuse circuit. This works pretty
> well...if you turn the fuel pump on, crank the car for a few seconds,
> then turn the fuel pump off, it fires. Immediately start pumping the gas
> and turning the pump on and off, and within 20 seconds the car will be
> running. And like I said, once it is running it runs great.
>
> I think my coolant-temperature sensor (aka "thermowax sensor") is
> screwed up, always reporting that the engine is cold. This device
> probably only gets read at startup--if the engine's cold, dump more gas
> in and it will fire right up; if you dump more gas in when it's hot the
> engine floods. I'm thinkin' the mixture-enrichment cycle only lasts
> about ten to fifteen seconds because once I'm out of that period, the
> engine runs stably in a very short period of time.
>
> I've already changed the fuel injector seals, and they needed it. I
> changed the thermostat because the car liked to overheat, and that also
> seemed to make it start a little easier. Would it be good to start
> hitting junkyards looking for a new thermowax sensor? I know the dealer
> price on one will be astronomical.
>
> --jm

google this group for the #1 most common failure in older hondas,
especially in summer. 30 seconds research would have saved you a bunch
of time and money.

Re: Strange start problem...is my logic okay?
 

Jim Mowreader wrote:
> I have a 1986 Accord LX-I with manual transmission.
>
> When the car is cold, it starts fine, and it always runs fine. It likes
> to idle at 2000rpm sometimes, but there's no hesitation or weirdness in
> its operation.
>
> When the car is warmed up, it will crank and crank and crank for quite
> some time before it starts...kinda like running out a flood on a car
> with a carburetor.
>
> A strange one: if you push-start the car when it's warm, it fires right
> up. But I totally trashed the left inner CV--tearing a hole in the oil
> pan in the process--when I did that once, so no more of that.
>
> So I thought, if I pull the fuel pump fuse and crank the engine, maybe
> it will start. Pull the fuse, the car runs for about three
> seconds...which is all you'd expect to get. Stick the fuse back in, car
> sometimes starts and sometimes does not. But you do the fuse in-out
> thing, and eventually the car starts.
>
> As an experiment, I bought a 30-amp automotive switch from RadioShack
> and wired it into the fuel pump fuse circuit. This works pretty
> well...if you turn the fuel pump on, crank the car for a few seconds,
> then turn the fuel pump off, it fires. Immediately start pumping the gas
> and turning the pump on and off, and within 20 seconds the car will be
> running. And like I said, once it is running it runs great.
>
> I think my coolant-temperature sensor (aka "thermowax sensor") is
> screwed up, always reporting that the engine is cold. This device
> probably only gets read at startup--if the engine's cold, dump more gas
> in and it will fire right up; if you dump more gas in when it's hot the
> engine floods. I'm thinkin' the mixture-enrichment cycle only lasts
> about ten to fifteen seconds because once I'm out of that period, the
> engine runs stably in a very short period of time.
>
> I've already changed the fuel injector seals, and they needed it. I
> changed the thermostat because the car liked to overheat, and that also
> seemed to make it start a little easier. Would it be good to start
> hitting junkyards looking for a new thermowax sensor? I know the dealer
> price on one will be astronomical.
>
> --jm

google this group for the #1 most common failure in older hondas,
especially in summer. 30 seconds research would have saved you a bunch
of time and money.

Re: Strange start problem...is my logic okay?
 

Jim Mowreader wrote:
> I have a 1986 Accord LX-I with manual transmission.
>
> When the car is cold, it starts fine, and it always runs fine. It likes
> to idle at 2000rpm sometimes, but there's no hesitation or weirdness in
> its operation.
>
> When the car is warmed up, it will crank and crank and crank for quite
> some time before it starts...kinda like running out a flood on a car
> with a carburetor.
>
> A strange one: if you push-start the car when it's warm, it fires right
> up. But I totally trashed the left inner CV--tearing a hole in the oil
> pan in the process--when I did that once, so no more of that.
>
> So I thought, if I pull the fuel pump fuse and crank the engine, maybe
> it will start. Pull the fuse, the car runs for about three
> seconds...which is all you'd expect to get. Stick the fuse back in, car
> sometimes starts and sometimes does not. But you do the fuse in-out
> thing, and eventually the car starts.
>
> As an experiment, I bought a 30-amp automotive switch from RadioShack
> and wired it into the fuel pump fuse circuit. This works pretty
> well...if you turn the fuel pump on, crank the car for a few seconds,
> then turn the fuel pump off, it fires. Immediately start pumping the gas
> and turning the pump on and off, and within 20 seconds the car will be
> running. And like I said, once it is running it runs great.
>
> I think my coolant-temperature sensor (aka "thermowax sensor") is
> screwed up, always reporting that the engine is cold. This device
> probably only gets read at startup--if the engine's cold, dump more gas
> in and it will fire right up; if you dump more gas in when it's hot the
> engine floods. I'm thinkin' the mixture-enrichment cycle only lasts
> about ten to fifteen seconds because once I'm out of that period, the
> engine runs stably in a very short period of time.
>
> I've already changed the fuel injector seals, and they needed it. I
> changed the thermostat because the car liked to overheat, and that also
> seemed to make it start a little easier. Would it be good to start
> hitting junkyards looking for a new thermowax sensor? I know the dealer
> price on one will be astronomical.
>
> --jm

google this group for the #1 most common failure in older hondas,
especially in summer. 30 seconds research would have saved you a bunch
of time and money.

Re: Strange start problem...is my logic okay?
 

Jim Mowreader wrote:
> I have a 1986 Accord LX-I with manual transmission.
>
> When the car is cold, it starts fine, and it always runs fine. It likes
> to idle at 2000rpm sometimes, but there's no hesitation or weirdness in
> its operation.
>
> When the car is warmed up, it will crank and crank and crank for quite
> some time before it starts...kinda like running out a flood on a car
> with a carburetor.
>
> A strange one: if you push-start the car when it's warm, it fires right
> up. But I totally trashed the left inner CV--tearing a hole in the oil
> pan in the process--when I did that once, so no more of that.
>
> So I thought, if I pull the fuel pump fuse and crank the engine, maybe
> it will start. Pull the fuse, the car runs for about three
> seconds...which is all you'd expect to get. Stick the fuse back in, car
> sometimes starts and sometimes does not. But you do the fuse in-out
> thing, and eventually the car starts.
>
> As an experiment, I bought a 30-amp automotive switch from RadioShack
> and wired it into the fuel pump fuse circuit. This works pretty
> well...if you turn the fuel pump on, crank the car for a few seconds,
> then turn the fuel pump off, it fires. Immediately start pumping the gas
> and turning the pump on and off, and within 20 seconds the car will be
> running. And like I said, once it is running it runs great.
>
> I think my coolant-temperature sensor (aka "thermowax sensor") is
> screwed up, always reporting that the engine is cold. This device
> probably only gets read at startup--if the engine's cold, dump more gas
> in and it will fire right up; if you dump more gas in when it's hot the
> engine floods. I'm thinkin' the mixture-enrichment cycle only lasts
> about ten to fifteen seconds because once I'm out of that period, the
> engine runs stably in a very short period of time.
>
> I've already changed the fuel injector seals, and they needed it. I
> changed the thermostat because the car liked to overheat, and that also
> seemed to make it start a little easier. Would it be good to start
> hitting junkyards looking for a new thermowax sensor? I know the dealer
> price on one will be astronomical.
>
> --jm

google this group for the #1 most common failure in older hondas,
especially in summer. 30 seconds research would have saved you a bunch
of time and money.

Re: Strange start problem...is my logic okay?
 

"Jim Mowreader" <xpr3@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:xpr3-B3D4B0.18175516072006@news.west.earthlink.net...
>I have a 1986 Accord LX-I with manual transmission.
>
> When the car is cold, it starts fine, and it always runs fine. It likes
> to idle at 2000rpm sometimes, but there's no hesitation or weirdness in
> its operation.
>
> When the car is warmed up, it will crank and crank and crank for quite
> some time before it starts...kinda like running out a flood on a car
> with a carburetor.
>
> A strange one: if you push-start the car when it's warm, it fires right
> up. But I totally trashed the left inner CV--tearing a hole in the oil
> pan in the process--when I did that once, so no more of that.
>
> So I thought, if I pull the fuel pump fuse and crank the engine, maybe
> it will start. Pull the fuse, the car runs for about three
> seconds...which is all you'd expect to get. Stick the fuse back in, car
> sometimes starts and sometimes does not. But you do the fuse in-out
> thing, and eventually the car starts.
>
> As an experiment, I bought a 30-amp automotive switch from RadioShack
> and wired it into the fuel pump fuse circuit. This works pretty
> well...if you turn the fuel pump on, crank the car for a few seconds,
> then turn the fuel pump off, it fires. Immediately start pumping the gas
> and turning the pump on and off, and within 20 seconds the car will be
> running. And like I said, once it is running it runs great.
>
> I think my coolant-temperature sensor (aka "thermowax sensor") is
> screwed up, always reporting that the engine is cold. This device
> probably only gets read at startup--if the engine's cold, dump more gas
> in and it will fire right up; if you dump more gas in when it's hot the
> engine floods. I'm thinkin' the mixture-enrichment cycle only lasts
> about ten to fifteen seconds because once I'm out of that period, the
> engine runs stably in a very short period of time.
>
> I've already changed the fuel injector seals, and they needed it. I
> changed the thermostat because the car liked to overheat, and that also
> seemed to make it start a little easier. Would it be good to start
> hitting junkyards looking for a new thermowax sensor? I know the dealer
> price on one will be astronomical.
>
> --jm

When the car doesn't start are you getting spark? If so, then maybe the fuel
pump relay.

Re: Strange start problem...is my logic okay?
 

"Jim Mowreader" <xpr3@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:xpr3-B3D4B0.18175516072006@news.west.earthlink.net...
>I have a 1986 Accord LX-I with manual transmission.
>
> When the car is cold, it starts fine, and it always runs fine. It likes
> to idle at 2000rpm sometimes, but there's no hesitation or weirdness in
> its operation.
>
> When the car is warmed up, it will crank and crank and crank for quite
> some time before it starts...kinda like running out a flood on a car
> with a carburetor.
>
> A strange one: if you push-start the car when it's warm, it fires right
> up. But I totally trashed the left inner CV--tearing a hole in the oil
> pan in the process--when I did that once, so no more of that.
>
> So I thought, if I pull the fuel pump fuse and crank the engine, maybe
> it will start. Pull the fuse, the car runs for about three
> seconds...which is all you'd expect to get. Stick the fuse back in, car
> sometimes starts and sometimes does not. But you do the fuse in-out
> thing, and eventually the car starts.
>
> As an experiment, I bought a 30-amp automotive switch from RadioShack
> and wired it into the fuel pump fuse circuit. This works pretty
> well...if you turn the fuel pump on, crank the car for a few seconds,
> then turn the fuel pump off, it fires. Immediately start pumping the gas
> and turning the pump on and off, and within 20 seconds the car will be
> running. And like I said, once it is running it runs great.
>
> I think my coolant-temperature sensor (aka "thermowax sensor") is
> screwed up, always reporting that the engine is cold. This device
> probably only gets read at startup--if the engine's cold, dump more gas
> in and it will fire right up; if you dump more gas in when it's hot the
> engine floods. I'm thinkin' the mixture-enrichment cycle only lasts
> about ten to fifteen seconds because once I'm out of that period, the
> engine runs stably in a very short period of time.
>
> I've already changed the fuel injector seals, and they needed it. I
> changed the thermostat because the car liked to overheat, and that also
> seemed to make it start a little easier. Would it be good to start
> hitting junkyards looking for a new thermowax sensor? I know the dealer
> price on one will be astronomical.
>
> --jm

When the car doesn't start are you getting spark? If so, then maybe the fuel
pump relay.

Re: Strange start problem...is my logic okay?
 

"Jim Mowreader" <xpr3@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:xpr3-B3D4B0.18175516072006@news.west.earthlink.net...
>I have a 1986 Accord LX-I with manual transmission.
>
> When the car is cold, it starts fine, and it always runs fine. It likes
> to idle at 2000rpm sometimes, but there's no hesitation or weirdness in
> its operation.
>
> When the car is warmed up, it will crank and crank and crank for quite
> some time before it starts...kinda like running out a flood on a car
> with a carburetor.
>
> A strange one: if you push-start the car when it's warm, it fires right
> up. But I totally trashed the left inner CV--tearing a hole in the oil
> pan in the process--when I did that once, so no more of that.
>
> So I thought, if I pull the fuel pump fuse and crank the engine, maybe
> it will start. Pull the fuse, the car runs for about three
> seconds...which is all you'd expect to get. Stick the fuse back in, car
> sometimes starts and sometimes does not. But you do the fuse in-out
> thing, and eventually the car starts.
>
> As an experiment, I bought a 30-amp automotive switch from RadioShack
> and wired it into the fuel pump fuse circuit. This works pretty
> well...if you turn the fuel pump on, crank the car for a few seconds,
> then turn the fuel pump off, it fires. Immediately start pumping the gas
> and turning the pump on and off, and within 20 seconds the car will be
> running. And like I said, once it is running it runs great.
>
> I think my coolant-temperature sensor (aka "thermowax sensor") is
> screwed up, always reporting that the engine is cold. This device
> probably only gets read at startup--if the engine's cold, dump more gas
> in and it will fire right up; if you dump more gas in when it's hot the
> engine floods. I'm thinkin' the mixture-enrichment cycle only lasts
> about ten to fifteen seconds because once I'm out of that period, the
> engine runs stably in a very short period of time.
>
> I've already changed the fuel injector seals, and they needed it. I
> changed the thermostat because the car liked to overheat, and that also
> seemed to make it start a little easier. Would it be good to start
> hitting junkyards looking for a new thermowax sensor? I know the dealer
> price on one will be astronomical.
>
> --jm

When the car doesn't start are you getting spark? If so, then maybe the fuel
pump relay.

Re: Strange start problem...is my logic okay?
 

"Jim Mowreader" <xpr3@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:xpr3-B3D4B0.18175516072006@news.west.earthlink.net...
>I have a 1986 Accord LX-I with manual transmission.
>
> When the car is cold, it starts fine, and it always runs fine. It likes
> to idle at 2000rpm sometimes, but there's no hesitation or weirdness in
> its operation.
>
> When the car is warmed up, it will crank and crank and crank for quite
> some time before it starts...kinda like running out a flood on a car
> with a carburetor.
>
> A strange one: if you push-start the car when it's warm, it fires right
> up. But I totally trashed the left inner CV--tearing a hole in the oil
> pan in the process--when I did that once, so no more of that.
>
> So I thought, if I pull the fuel pump fuse and crank the engine, maybe
> it will start. Pull the fuse, the car runs for about three
> seconds...which is all you'd expect to get. Stick the fuse back in, car
> sometimes starts and sometimes does not. But you do the fuse in-out
> thing, and eventually the car starts.
>
> As an experiment, I bought a 30-amp automotive switch from RadioShack
> and wired it into the fuel pump fuse circuit. This works pretty
> well...if you turn the fuel pump on, crank the car for a few seconds,
> then turn the fuel pump off, it fires. Immediately start pumping the gas
> and turning the pump on and off, and within 20 seconds the car will be
> running. And like I said, once it is running it runs great.
>
> I think my coolant-temperature sensor (aka "thermowax sensor") is
> screwed up, always reporting that the engine is cold. This device
> probably only gets read at startup--if the engine's cold, dump more gas
> in and it will fire right up; if you dump more gas in when it's hot the
> engine floods. I'm thinkin' the mixture-enrichment cycle only lasts
> about ten to fifteen seconds because once I'm out of that period, the
> engine runs stably in a very short period of time.
>
> I've already changed the fuel injector seals, and they needed it. I
> changed the thermostat because the car liked to overheat, and that also
> seemed to make it start a little easier. Would it be good to start
> hitting junkyards looking for a new thermowax sensor? I know the dealer
> price on one will be astronomical.
>
> --jm

When the car doesn't start are you getting spark? If so, then maybe the fuel
pump relay.

Re: Strange start problem...is my logic okay?
 

In article <wL-dndyznP1HfifZnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:

> google this group for the #1 most common failure in older hondas,
> especially in summer. 30 seconds research would have saved you a bunch
> of time and money.

I looked at the relay issue before I wrote the OP and it really doesn't
seem applicable.

1) this happens all year round--not just during the summer.
2) I just went outside and started the car. I got three clicks. When the
car is dead cold, it always starts within a couple of seconds of turning
the key to the "start" position--normally one second. (After I put the
new injector seals in, it doesn't even need the two-second pause for the
fuel pump to pressurize the rail--stick the key in and turn it straight
to "start," it fires right up.)
3) When the engine is hot, if you push-start the car (which doesn't
activate the starter, hence doesn't tell the PGM-FI "you're going
through a startup cycle") it always starts.
4) When you start the car hot and turn off the fuel pump during
cranking, it fires right up--naturally, it won't STAY running because no
gas is being pumped, but it does start running. And when you sit there
and feed it gas in little increments by turning the fuel pump on and off
and pumping the gas so the engine will continue to turn, eventually it
gets through that time when the PGM-FI wants to overdose the engine on
gas and it runs.
5) While this cranking and pumping thing is going on, there's a very
strong smell of gas around the car, like a car with a carb gets when
it's flooded.

If it was a main relay problem the car wouldn't run at all, and the car
runs fine. It's just a livin' bitch to start it when it's hot.

--jm

Re: Strange start problem...is my logic okay?
 

In article <wL-dndyznP1HfifZnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:

> google this group for the #1 most common failure in older hondas,
> especially in summer. 30 seconds research would have saved you a bunch
> of time and money.

I looked at the relay issue before I wrote the OP and it really doesn't
seem applicable.

1) this happens all year round--not just during the summer.
2) I just went outside and started the car. I got three clicks. When the
car is dead cold, it always starts within a couple of seconds of turning
the key to the "start" position--normally one second. (After I put the
new injector seals in, it doesn't even need the two-second pause for the
fuel pump to pressurize the rail--stick the key in and turn it straight
to "start," it fires right up.)
3) When the engine is hot, if you push-start the car (which doesn't
activate the starter, hence doesn't tell the PGM-FI "you're going
through a startup cycle") it always starts.
4) When you start the car hot and turn off the fuel pump during
cranking, it fires right up--naturally, it won't STAY running because no
gas is being pumped, but it does start running. And when you sit there
and feed it gas in little increments by turning the fuel pump on and off
and pumping the gas so the engine will continue to turn, eventually it
gets through that time when the PGM-FI wants to overdose the engine on
gas and it runs.
5) While this cranking and pumping thing is going on, there's a very
strong smell of gas around the car, like a car with a carb gets when
it's flooded.

If it was a main relay problem the car wouldn't run at all, and the car
runs fine. It's just a livin' bitch to start it when it's hot.

--jm

Re: Strange start problem...is my logic okay?
 

In article <wL-dndyznP1HfifZnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:

> google this group for the #1 most common failure in older hondas,
> especially in summer. 30 seconds research would have saved you a bunch
> of time and money.

I looked at the relay issue before I wrote the OP and it really doesn't
seem applicable.

1) this happens all year round--not just during the summer.
2) I just went outside and started the car. I got three clicks. When the
car is dead cold, it always starts within a couple of seconds of turning
the key to the "start" position--normally one second. (After I put the
new injector seals in, it doesn't even need the two-second pause for the
fuel pump to pressurize the rail--stick the key in and turn it straight
to "start," it fires right up.)
3) When the engine is hot, if you push-start the car (which doesn't
activate the starter, hence doesn't tell the PGM-FI "you're going
through a startup cycle") it always starts.
4) When you start the car hot and turn off the fuel pump during
cranking, it fires right up--naturally, it won't STAY running because no
gas is being pumped, but it does start running. And when you sit there
and feed it gas in little increments by turning the fuel pump on and off
and pumping the gas so the engine will continue to turn, eventually it
gets through that time when the PGM-FI wants to overdose the engine on
gas and it runs.
5) While this cranking and pumping thing is going on, there's a very
strong smell of gas around the car, like a car with a carb gets when
it's flooded.

If it was a main relay problem the car wouldn't run at all, and the car
runs fine. It's just a livin' bitch to start it when it's hot.

--jm

Re: Strange start problem...is my logic okay?
 

In article <wL-dndyznP1HfifZnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:

> google this group for the #1 most common failure in older hondas,
> especially in summer. 30 seconds research would have saved you a bunch
> of time and money.

I looked at the relay issue before I wrote the OP and it really doesn't
seem applicable.

1) this happens all year round--not just during the summer.
2) I just went outside and started the car. I got three clicks. When the
car is dead cold, it always starts within a couple of seconds of turning
the key to the "start" position--normally one second. (After I put the
new injector seals in, it doesn't even need the two-second pause for the
fuel pump to pressurize the rail--stick the key in and turn it straight
to "start," it fires right up.)
3) When the engine is hot, if you push-start the car (which doesn't
activate the starter, hence doesn't tell the PGM-FI "you're going
through a startup cycle") it always starts.
4) When you start the car hot and turn off the fuel pump during
cranking, it fires right up--naturally, it won't STAY running because no
gas is being pumped, but it does start running. And when you sit there
and feed it gas in little increments by turning the fuel pump on and off
and pumping the gas so the engine will continue to turn, eventually it
gets through that time when the PGM-FI wants to overdose the engine on
gas and it runs.
5) While this cranking and pumping thing is going on, there's a very
strong smell of gas around the car, like a car with a carb gets when
it's flooded.

If it was a main relay problem the car wouldn't run at all, and the car
runs fine. It's just a livin' bitch to start it when it's hot.

--jm

Re: Strange start problem...is my logic okay?
 

Jim Mowreader wrote:
> In article <wL-dndyznP1HfifZnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
>> google this group for the #1 most common failure in older hondas,
>> especially in summer. 30 seconds research would have saved you a bunch
>> of time and money.
>
> I looked at the relay issue before I wrote the OP and it really doesn't
> seem applicable.
>
> 1) this happens all year round--not just during the summer.

main relay. but it's worse when hot.

> 2) I just went outside and started the car. I got three clicks. When the
> car is dead cold, it always starts within a couple of seconds of turning
> the key to the "start" position--normally one second. (After I put the
> new injector seals in, it doesn't even need the two-second pause for the
> fuel pump to pressurize the rail--stick the key in and turn it straight
> to "start," it fires right up.)

the seals have /nothing/ do do with ability to start. they just hold
the gas in the rail and stop the engine sucking air, depending on which
end of the injector you're looking at.

> 3) When the engine is hot, if you push-start the car (which doesn't
> activate the starter, hence doesn't tell the PGM-FI "you're going
> through a startup cycle") it always starts.

er, it wouldn't run at all if the injector system couldn't figure out
when to start injecting...

> 4) When you start the car hot and turn off the fuel pump during
> cranking, it fires right up--naturally, it won't STAY running because no
> gas is being pumped, but it does start running. And when you sit there
> and feed it gas in little increments by turning the fuel pump on and off
> and pumping the gas so the engine will continue to turn, eventually it
> gets through that time when the PGM-FI wants to overdose the engine on
> gas and it runs.

ok, that's more diagnostic. do two things - check into flooded start
conditions and remove plugs to see if you can find the wet one. that'll
give you the leaking injector.

> 5) While this cranking and pumping thing is going on, there's a very
> strong smell of gas around the car, like a car with a carb gets when
> it's flooded.
>
> If it was a main relay problem the car wouldn't run at all, and the car
> runs fine. It's just a livin' bitch to start it when it's hot.

unfortunately, the worst thing about the relay is that it's
intermittent. i strongly recommend you repair or replace it as a
precaution. the chances of this vehicle at this age /not/ being
affected is slim to zero. then you have a clear run at your other
symptoms without false positives.

>
> --jm

Re: Strange start problem...is my logic okay?
 

Jim Mowreader wrote:
> In article <wL-dndyznP1HfifZnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
>> google this group for the #1 most common failure in older hondas,
>> especially in summer. 30 seconds research would have saved you a bunch
>> of time and money.
>
> I looked at the relay issue before I wrote the OP and it really doesn't
> seem applicable.
>
> 1) this happens all year round--not just during the summer.

main relay. but it's worse when hot.

> 2) I just went outside and started the car. I got three clicks. When the
> car is dead cold, it always starts within a couple of seconds of turning
> the key to the "start" position--normally one second. (After I put the
> new injector seals in, it doesn't even need the two-second pause for the
> fuel pump to pressurize the rail--stick the key in and turn it straight
> to "start," it fires right up.)

the seals have /nothing/ do do with ability to start. they just hold
the gas in the rail and stop the engine sucking air, depending on which
end of the injector you're looking at.

> 3) When the engine is hot, if you push-start the car (which doesn't
> activate the starter, hence doesn't tell the PGM-FI "you're going
> through a startup cycle") it always starts.

er, it wouldn't run at all if the injector system couldn't figure out
when to start injecting...

> 4) When you start the car hot and turn off the fuel pump during
> cranking, it fires right up--naturally, it won't STAY running because no
> gas is being pumped, but it does start running. And when you sit there
> and feed it gas in little increments by turning the fuel pump on and off
> and pumping the gas so the engine will continue to turn, eventually it
> gets through that time when the PGM-FI wants to overdose the engine on
> gas and it runs.

ok, that's more diagnostic. do two things - check into flooded start
conditions and remove plugs to see if you can find the wet one. that'll
give you the leaking injector.

> 5) While this cranking and pumping thing is going on, there's a very
> strong smell of gas around the car, like a car with a carb gets when
> it's flooded.
>
> If it was a main relay problem the car wouldn't run at all, and the car
> runs fine. It's just a livin' bitch to start it when it's hot.

unfortunately, the worst thing about the relay is that it's
intermittent. i strongly recommend you repair or replace it as a
precaution. the chances of this vehicle at this age /not/ being
affected is slim to zero. then you have a clear run at your other
symptoms without false positives.

>
> --jm