Timing belt snappage on 99 civic
 

Hi All

My sisters (poorly maintained) 99 civic with 165000kms has recently snapped
the timing belt. Thought I would add some ammunition to the OEM vs nonOEM
parts debate.

The belt has 60000kms on it. Its made by Goodyear. Its 3 years old. We are
located in Winnipeg. And its not even cold yet.

Not only did it possibly ruin the valve train, it took the lower timing cover
and the CYL Crank Angle sensor with it. (And they want to charge $300 for
the sensor alone!) Total bill to put it back together = $700 at the
dealership. Then we get to crank it over and see if the valves are bent.

Sounds ass backwards to me, I told my bro-in law to suggest doing the
clearance checks on the valves as is, but the dealership told him that
wouldn't work.

Any ideas out there regarding this? Also does 3 bills for that sensor sound
right? What about the valve clearance check?

Its not my car, so I am just doing this for info purposes. I drive a (much
better maintained) 98 civic with 236000kms on it.

Thanks in advance.
t

--
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Re: Timing belt snappage on 99 civic
 

"T L via CarKB.com" wrote:
>
> Hi All
>
> My sisters (poorly maintained) 99 civic with 165000kms has recently snapped
> the timing belt. Thought I would add some ammunition to the OEM vs nonOEM
> parts debate.
>
> The belt has 60000kms on it. Its made by Goodyear. Its 3 years old. We are
> located in Winnipeg. And its not even cold yet.
>
> Not only did it possibly ruin the valve train, it took the lower timing cover
> and the CYL Crank Angle sensor with it. (And they want to charge $300 for
> the sensor alone!) Total bill to put it back together = $700 at the
> dealership. Then we get to crank it over and see if the valves are bent.
>
> Sounds ass backwards to me, I told my bro-in law to suggest doing the
> clearance checks on the valves as is, but the dealership told him that
> wouldn't work.
>
> Any ideas out there regarding this? Also does 3 bills for that sensor sound
> right? What about the valve clearance check?
>
> Its not my car, so I am just doing this for info purposes. I drive a (much
> better maintained) 98 civic with 236000kms on it.
>
> Thanks in advance.
> t
--------------------------------------

Dealerships typically lack IMAGINATION. They could have just turned the
cams over by hand and checked the valve clearances to see it any of them
were about 5 X normal. They should posses a scope for looking down the
spark plug holes to see if there's any shredded valves sitting in there
too.

The person who installed the Goodyear belt must have over tightened it,
or the idler pulley was shot (terribly rare for only a '99).

You may need to find your sister a better private mechanic . .
Shouldn't be hard in WPG.

'Curly'

Re: Timing belt snappage on 99 civic
 

"T L via CarKB.com" <u10197@uwe> wrote in message news:57dcba2c22cb8@uwe...

> My sisters (poorly maintained) 99 civic with 165000kms has recently snapped
> the timing belt. Thought I would add some ammunition to the OEM vs nonOEM
> parts debate.
> The belt has 60000kms on it. Its made by Goodyear. Its 3 years old. We are
> located in Winnipeg. And its not even cold yet.
> Not only did it possibly ruin the valve train, it took the lower timing cover
> and the CYL Crank Angle sensor with it. (And they want to charge $300 for
> the sensor alone!) Total bill to put it back together = $700 at the
> dealership. Then we get to crank it over and see if the valves are bent.
> Sounds ass backwards to me, I told my bro-in law to suggest doing the
> clearance checks on the valves as is, but the dealership told him that
> wouldn't work.
> Any ideas out there regarding this? Also does 3 bills for that sensor sound
> right? What about the valve clearance check?
> Its not my car, so I am just doing this for info purposes. I drive a (much
> better maintained) 98 civic with 236000kms on it.

Just watch the idle and do a compression test. But some damages could
still be hidden.

As part of my ritual, the non-genuine belt should be replace before the
expected date. If there's any sign of oil on them they should be replaced
*immediately.* Genuine belts can soak up oil and can last as much as a
month on a well lubricated cam. I've seen it.

Re: Timing belt snappage on 99 civic
 

"T L via CarKB.com" <u10197@uwe> wrote
> does 3 bills for that sensor sound right?

[$300 (canadian?) for the CYL crank angle sensor on a 1999 Civic, 165000 km]

So that's about $257 American and about 102,000 miles.

The crank angle TDC/CYL sensors are installed on the distributor housing, so
what they're doing (rightly, assuming the CYL sensor really is damaged) is
replacing the whole distributor housing. Online OEM parts sites sell the
housing for this Civic for about $233 American. A little more for labor
sounds quite fair. The shop will switch over the old ignitor, coil, cap, and
rotor to the new housing. Though you should consider a new cap and rotor at
this point if your sis does not maintain this car well.

The better news is that replacing the housing anyway for a car with this
many miles is not a terrible idea. The bearing on it often fails with age.
(Well, it could last another 100k miles, too.) From my reading here and my
own experience, many Honda owners end up with a new housing at some point in
the mid-life of the car, though not due to the accident your sister's car
had.

An independent shop "determined" that the cause of some non-start problems
my 91 Civic was having around 140k miles was the way I had jury rigged the
rotor to the distributor shaft. They told me the car needed a new
distributor housing to replace the jury-rig fix, etc. Their diagnosis was
wrong: about ten days later the car stalled again, and they found the
problem was actually the ignition coil. Whence we had a few firm
talk-through-your-teeth-and-try-to-keep-things-friendly words. But in
hindsight, after reading more here, the new housing probably spared me
problems further down the road.

If you're a junkyard addict, you can quite possibly get a real deal on a
distributor housing.

Like you and others say, though, the bigger question is whether the valves
were bent. I'd be talking to another shop to ask them what would be
necessary to identify this, as I agree what this first shop is saying sounds
fishy. Also, if this first shop is the one that put in the belt...

I am a pretty big OEM parts proponent these days (after learning the hard
way a few times), but I don't recall seeing at online fora who makes Hondas
T belts or any controversy over them. I am kinda doubting Goodyear being the
maker had anything to do with this.

Re: Timing belt snappage on 99 civic
 

Elle, this sensor is not on the distributor housing, its right in the path of
the timing belt under the timing belt cover. In the shop manual, they call
it the Crankshaft Speed Fluctuation Sensor. I haven't been able to find it
on any of the parts websites out there including Majestic and San Leandro
Honda websites, or any after market ones.

I have a JPEG of the affected part for clarity, but don't have anywhere to
post it. How do I send it to you?

t

Elle wrote:
>> does 3 bills for that sensor sound right?
>
>[$300 (canadian?) for the CYL crank angle sensor on a 1999 Civic, 165000 km]
>
>So that's about $257 American and about 102,000 miles.
>
>The crank angle TDC/CYL sensors are installed on the distributor housing, so
>what they're doing (rightly, assuming the CYL sensor really is damaged) is
>replacing the whole distributor housing. Online OEM parts sites sell the
>housing for this Civic for about $233 American. A little more for labor
>sounds quite fair. The shop will switch over the old ignitor, coil, cap, and
>rotor to the new housing. Though you should consider a new cap and rotor at
>this point if your sis does not maintain this car well.
>
>The better news is that replacing the housing anyway for a car with this
>many miles is not a terrible idea. The bearing on it often fails with age.
>(Well, it could last another 100k miles, too.) From my reading here and my
>own experience, many Honda owners end up with a new housing at some point in
>the mid-life of the car, though not due to the accident your sister's car
>had.
>
>An independent shop "determined" that the cause of some non-start problems
>my 91 Civic was having around 140k miles was the way I had jury rigged the
>rotor to the distributor shaft. They told me the car needed a new
>distributor housing to replace the jury-rig fix, etc. Their diagnosis was
>wrong: about ten days later the car stalled again, and they found the
>problem was actually the ignition coil. Whence we had a few firm
>talk-through-your-teeth-and-try-to-keep-things-friendly words. But in
>hindsight, after reading more here, the new housing probably spared me
>problems further down the road.
>
>If you're a junkyard addict, you can quite possibly get a real deal on a
>distributor housing.
>
>Like you and others say, though, the bigger question is whether the valves
>were bent. I'd be talking to another shop to ask them what would be
>necessary to identify this, as I agree what this first shop is saying sounds
>fishy. Also, if this first shop is the one that put in the belt...
>
>I am a pretty big OEM parts proponent these days (after learning the hard
>way a few times), but I don't recall seeing at online fora who makes Hondas
>T belts or any controversy over them. I am kinda doubting Goodyear being the
>maker had anything to do with this.

--
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Re: Timing belt snappage on 99 civic
 

What types of damage could still be hidden? I would imagine anything wrong
with the valvetrain's moving parts would make a big klacking noise. Or lower
compression on a cylinder that isn't getting a good seal on the valve seat.

Any other ideas?

t

Burt S. wrote:
>> My sisters (poorly maintained) 99 civic with 165000kms has recently snapped
>> the timing belt. Thought I would add some ammunition to the OEM vs nonOEM
>[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>> Its not my car, so I am just doing this for info purposes. I drive a (much
>> better maintained) 98 civic with 236000kms on it.
>
>Just watch the idle and do a compression test. But some damages could
>still be hidden.
>
>As part of my ritual, the non-genuine belt should be replace before the
>expected date. If there's any sign of oil on them they should be replaced
>*immediately.* Genuine belts can soak up oil and can last as much as a
>month on a well lubricated cam. I've seen it.

--
Message posted via http://www.carkb.com

Re: Timing belt snappage on 99 civic
 

"T L via CarKB.com" <u10197@uwe> wrote
> Elle, this sensor is not on the distributor housing, its
right in the path of
> the timing belt under the timing belt cover. In the shop
manual, they call
> it the Crankshaft Speed Fluctuation Sensor.

So, to clarify, did your first post have it wrong? Because
you originally said it was the crank angle CYL sensor that
the shop said needed to be replaced (though granted this is
nowhere near the lower timing belt cover).

> I haven't been able to find it
> on any of the parts websites out there including Majestic
and San Leandro
> Honda websites, or any after market ones.
>
> I have a JPEG of the affected part for clarity, but don't
have anywhere to
> post it. How do I send it to you?

Feel free to mail it to honda.lioness@earthlink.net

I guess you already know that Majestic's and SLHonda's
drawings and lists of items can be a little tricky. But I'll
give it a shot, if you'd like some help.

I do not think my 91 Civic has this sensor, so my own manual
won't help.

Meanwhile, I'll google a bit. Always fun to learn more.

Re: Timing belt snappage on 99 civic
 

Yes original post referred to the wrong sensor. In the manual its referred
to as a CKF sensor, not the CYL sensor. My mistake.

Google had frustratingly little to yield on searches like "civic CKF" "civic
crank sensor" etc....

I sent you the page from the manual that shows what I mean from my gmail
account.

t

Elle wrote:
>> Elle, this sensor is not on the distributor housing, its right in the path of
>> the timing belt under the timing belt cover. In the shop manual, they call
>> it the Crankshaft Speed Fluctuation Sensor.
>
>So, to clarify, did your first post have it wrong? Because
>you originally said it was the crank angle CYL sensor that
>the shop said needed to be replaced (though granted this is
>nowhere near the lower timing belt cover).
>
>> I haven't been able to find it
>> on any of the parts websites out there including Majestic and San Leandro
>> Honda websites, or any after market ones.
>>
>> I have a JPEG of the affected part for clarity, but don't have anywhere to
>> post it. How do I send it to you?
>
>Feel free to mail it to honda.lioness@earthlink.net
>
>I guess you already know that Majestic's and SLHonda's
>drawings and lists of items can be a little tricky. But I'll
>give it a shot, if you'd like some help.
>
>I do not think my 91 Civic has this sensor, so my own manual
>won't help.
>
>Meanwhile, I'll google a bit. Always fun to learn more.

--
Message posted via CarKB.com
http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx...-cars/200511/1

Re: Timing belt snappage on 99 civic
 

I have been designated the 'private mechanic', I tell them what needs doing,
they say they don't have the money. Its lead to some heated arguments.
They've been driving around for the last year or so with a noisy rear hub and
the check engine light on.

very frustrating. oh ya, and by the way i didn't do the timing belt job on
this, it was done (according to the dealer) befoer the car was purchased. So
I wasn't worried about it. I know better now, and will check the t-belt
tension more regularly on any hondas i am working on.

t

'Curly Q. Links' wrote:
>> Hi All
>>
>[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>> Thanks in advance.
>> t
>--------------------------------------
>
>Dealerships typically lack IMAGINATION. They could have just turned the
>cams over by hand and checked the valve clearances to see it any of them
>were about 5 X normal. They should posses a scope for looking down the
>spark plug holes to see if there's any shredded valves sitting in there
>too.
>
>The person who installed the Goodyear belt must have over tightened it,
>or the idler pulley was shot (terribly rare for only a '99).
>
>You may need to find your sister a better private mechanic . .
>Shouldn't be hard in WPG.
>
>'Curly'

--
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http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx...-cars/200511/1

Re: Timing belt snappage on 99 civic
 

This sensor is under "oil pump-oil strainer" at slhonda.com
and Majestic, because it's mounted on the oil pump. There
are two CKF sensors listed there, so that's confusing. From
the drawing you sent, I think you have the lower priced one,
at about $28 at Majestic, plus shipping/handling. The more
expensive one is about $90. Either way, what the shop wants
to charge you must be mostly the labor for getting into the
TB. Presumably a new TB will be put on anyway, so ISTM at
first blush all they should pretty much charge you for is
the part price, then charge you for putting in the TB.

(I googled for "CKF sensor," because that's what the drawing
you sent called it. That turned up more info and helped me
to find it at slhonda etc.)

"T L via CarKB.com" <u10197@uwe> wrote
> Yes original post referred to the wrong sensor. In the
manual its referred
> to as a CKF sensor, not the CYL sensor. My mistake.
>
> Google had frustratingly little to yield on searches like
"civic CKF" "civic
> crank sensor" etc....
>
> I sent you the page from the manual that shows what I mean
from my gmail
> account.
>
> t
>
> Elle wrote:
> >> Elle, this sensor is not on the distributor housing,
its right in the path of
> >> the timing belt under the timing belt cover. In the
shop manual, they call
> >> it the Crankshaft Speed Fluctuation Sensor.
> >
> >So, to clarify, did your first post have it wrong?
Because
> >you originally said it was the crank angle CYL sensor
that
> >the shop said needed to be replaced (though granted this
is
> >nowhere near the lower timing belt cover).
> >
> >> I haven't been able to find it
> >> on any of the parts websites out there including
Majestic and San Leandro
> >> Honda websites, or any after market ones.
> >>
> >> I have a JPEG of the affected part for clarity, but
don't have anywhere to
> >> post it. How do I send it to you?
> >
> >Feel free to mail it to honda.lioness@earthlink.net
> >
> >I guess you already know that Majestic's and SLHonda's
> >drawings and lists of items can be a little tricky. But
I'll
> >give it a shot, if you'd like some help.
> >
> >I do not think my 91 Civic has this sensor, so my own
manual
> >won't help.
> >
> >Meanwhile, I'll google a bit. Always fun to learn more.
>
> --
> Message posted via CarKB.com
> http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx...-cars/200511/1

Re: Timing belt snappage on 99 civic
 

I spoke with another local dealership, he mentioned that there was a change
mid-year on that model, so maybe that is why there are 2 sensors listed.

Geez, high taxes and getting ripped off at the dealership. Maybe my free
healthcare can make up for some of that, but I'm never sick! :)

t

Elle wrote:
>This sensor is under "oil pump-oil strainer" at slhonda.com
>and Majestic, because it's mounted on the oil pump. There
>are two CKF sensors listed there, so that's confusing. From
>the drawing you sent, I think you have the lower priced one,
>at about $28 at Majestic, plus shipping/handling. The more
>expensive one is about $90. Either way, what the shop wants
>to charge you must be mostly the labor for getting into the
>TB. Presumably a new TB will be put on anyway, so ISTM at
>first blush all they should pretty much charge you for is
>the part price, then charge you for putting in the TB.
>
>(I googled for "CKF sensor," because that's what the drawing
>you sent called it. That turned up more info and helped me
>to find it at slhonda etc.)
>
>> Yes original post referred to the wrong sensor. In the manual its referred
>> to as a CKF sensor, not the CYL sensor. My mistake.
>[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>> >
>> >Meanwhile, I'll google a bit. Always fun to learn more.

--
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Re: Timing belt snappage on 99 civic
 

By the way,

The dealer expressed reservations on doing the check by turning the cam over
by hand. He said the valves would hit the pistons and you'd only be able to
turn it so far.

Having never tried this I was in no position to argue.

Any feedback?

thanks
t

'Curly Q. Links' wrote:
>> Hi All
>>
>[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>> Thanks in advance.
>> t
>--------------------------------------
>
>Dealerships typically lack IMAGINATION. They could have just turned the
>cams over by hand and checked the valve clearances to see it any of them
>were about 5 X normal. They should posses a scope for looking down the
>spark plug holes to see if there's any shredded valves sitting in there
>too.
>
>The person who installed the Goodyear belt must have over tightened it,
>or the idler pulley was shot (terribly rare for only a '99).
>
>You may need to find your sister a better private mechanic . .
>Shouldn't be hard in WPG.
>
>'Curly'

--
Message posted via CarKB.com
http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx...-cars/200511/1

Re: Timing belt snappage on 99 civic
 

"T L via CarKB.com" wrote:
>
> By the way,
>
> The dealer expressed reservations on doing the check by turning the cam over
> by hand. He said the valves would hit the pistons and you'd only be able to
> turn it so far.
>
> Having never tried this I was in no position to argue.
>
> Any feedback?
>
> thanks

------------------------

Dealer is a DROID. You would make sure the pistons are all at
'half-mast' first, so you're free to turn the cams all you want. Since
the TB is broken anyway, you can . . . . It's a waste of finger
movement to try to explain this.

What did I say??? Some dealers have NO IMAGINATION. Totally unable to
think outside the BOX. Hire some mechanic who thinks like an old farmer
to do your work, they know the EXCEPTIONS, and laugh at the RULES. It
will also cost less, probably.

'Curly'

Re: Timing belt snappage on 99 civic
 

'Curly Q. Links' wrote:
> "T L via CarKB.com" wrote:
>
>>By the way,
>>
>>The dealer expressed reservations on doing the check by turning the cam over
>>by hand. He said the valves would hit the pistons and you'd only be able to
>>turn it so far.
>>
>>Having never tried this I was in no position to argue.
>>
>>Any feedback?
>>
>>thanks
>
>
> ------------------------
>
> Dealer is a DROID. You would make sure the pistons are all at
> 'half-mast' first, so you're free to turn the cams all you want. Since
> the TB is broken anyway, you can . . . . It's a waste of finger
> movement to try to explain this.

lol!

>
> What did I say??? Some dealers have NO IMAGINATION. Totally unable to
> think outside the BOX. Hire some mechanic who thinks like an old farmer
> to do your work, they know the EXCEPTIONS, and laugh at the RULES. It
> will also cost less, probably.

it's all about money. it takes 20 minutes to figure it out by turning
the cam and measuring the lash. it takes a couple of hours, gaskets,
and a whole bunch of cash to take the head off. a dealer's gotta pay
the rent don'tcha know...

>
> 'Curly'

Re: Timing belt snappage on 99 civic
 

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:G6WdnTG_qbYzBhfenZ2dnUVZ_v2dnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> 'Curly Q. Links' wrote:
> it's all about money. it takes 20 minutes to figure it out by turning the
> cam and measuring the lash. it takes a couple of hours, gaskets, and a
> whole bunch of cash to take the head off. a dealer's gotta pay the rent
> don'tcha know...
>
>>
>> 'Curly'

A kinder (wussier) way of putting it is that professionals have to be
careful about placing bets. We as owners can pursue the least expensive
opportunities for repair, like replacing brushes in motors. Professionals
have to choose approaches that won't blow up in their faces.

Mike