Cameo

Really ... Where are wouldbe Toyota buyers turning now first? Wouldn't
it be Honda? I wonder if there are any indication of this yet.

billzz

On Jan 27, 11:41 am, "Cameo" <ca...@cameo.invalid> wrote:
> Really ... Where are wouldbe Toyota buyers turning now first? Wouldn't
> it be Honda? I wonder if there are any indication of this yet.

As a matter of fact, we just took delivery of a Honda Pilot Touring,
after test-driving the Toyota Venza. My wife absolutely hated the fly-
by-wire steering. It's like a remote-controlled vehicle. It goes
where you point it but there is no feedback. We also looked at the
new GMC Acadia, bit too Tonka-toy for me. We have twin Jeep Grand
Cherokee Laredos, with 140K miles so need reliability for long road
trips. The Honda seemed a generation ahead of the others, and the new
Jeeps are mere shadows of the old "real" Jeeps. And the Consumer's
Report didn't help either. Remarkably, we had few problems with the
Jeeps, and I used to drive from Dallas to Sacramento for the Jazz
Jubilee, each year. The Honda is bigger, quieter, more fuel-
efficient, more automated, more seats (can snug 8 people into one.)
Just more of what we wanted and less of what we didn't want.

Making Car Sense

On Jan 27, 3:34 pm, billzz <bil...@wildblue.net> wrote:
> On Jan 27, 11:41 am, "Cameo" <ca...@cameo.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Really ... Where are wouldbe Toyota buyers turning now first? Wouldn't
> > it be Honda? I wonder if there are any indication of this yet.
>
> As a matter of fact, we just took delivery of a Honda Pilot Touring,
> after test-driving the Toyota Venza. My wife absolutely hated the fly-
> by-wire steering. It's like a remote-controlled vehicle. It goes
> where you point it but there is no feedback. We also looked at the
> new GMC Acadia, bit too Tonka-toy for me. We have twin Jeep Grand
> Cherokee Laredos, with 140K miles so need reliability for long road
> trips. The Honda seemed a generation ahead of the others, and the new
> Jeeps are mere shadows of the old "real" Jeeps. And the Consumer's
> Report didn't help either. Remarkably, we had few problems with the
> Jeeps, and I used to drive from Dallas to Sacramento for the Jazz
> Jubilee, each year. The Honda is bigger, quieter, more fuel-
> efficient, more automated, more seats (can snug 8 people into one.)
> Just more of what we wanted and less of what we didn't want.

I still have respect for Toyota, however, a once highly regarded
reputation will now take some time to recover from this. I've been
trying to find out if Toyota utilizes Drive-by-Wire technology that
Honda uses as their throttle system. Wondering if this design is to
fault or not. Any thoughts?

Chris
www.makingcarsense.com
http://www.makingcarsense.com/post/t...2010/1079.aspx

tww1491

"billzz" <billzz@wildblue.net> wrote in message
news:83105773-8374-4411-9a03-1f3b90c3de51@36g2000yqu.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 27, 11:41 am, "Cameo" <ca...@cameo.invalid> wrote:
>> Really ... Where are wouldbe Toyota buyers turning now first? Wouldn't
>> it be Honda? I wonder if there are any indication of this yet.
>
> As a matter of fact, we just took delivery of a Honda Pilot Touring,
> after test-driving the Toyota Venza. My wife absolutely hated the fly-
> by-wire steering. It's like a remote-controlled vehicle. It goes
> where you point it but there is no feedback. We also looked at the
> new GMC Acadia, bit too Tonka-toy for me. We have twin Jeep Grand
> Cherokee Laredos, with 140K miles so need reliability for long road
> trips. The Honda seemed a generation ahead of the others, and the new
> Jeeps are mere shadows of the old "real" Jeeps. And the Consumer's
> Report didn't help either. Remarkably, we had few problems with the
> Jeeps, and I used to drive from Dallas to Sacramento for the Jazz
> Jubilee, each year. The Honda is bigger, quieter, more fuel-
> efficient, more automated, more seats (can snug 8 people into one.)
> Just more of what we wanted and less of what we didn't want.

We still have our 03 Pilot, the 1st year they came out. Still drives like
new and does not break. Although AWD it gets around 22 on the road.

Tegger

Making Car Sense <christopherasachs@gmail.com> wrote in
news:60662132-82bb-42e4-b628-60bfa8a318d1@g1g2000yqi.googlegroups.com:


>
> I still have respect for Toyota, however, a once highly regarded
> reputation will now take some time to recover from this. I've been
> trying to find out if Toyota utilizes Drive-by-Wire technology that
> Honda uses as their throttle system. Wondering if this design is to
> fault or not. Any thoughts?



You're a bit out of the loop on this. Funny that, given your advertised
website.

ALL automakers now use throttle-by-wire. It's an aftershock of federal
emissions-control regulations. In case anybody's wondering, steering is
still steel-to-steel, as it has been since forever.

There were two problems with the affected Toyotas:
1) aftermarket floor mats (the cop that died was driving a loaner that had
aftermarket mats which had bunched up and kept the pedal down), and
2) poor-quality pedal/sensor assemblies from a Toyota supplier.

The sensor problem has to do with gas pedal assemblies supplied to Toyota
by a Canadian branch of a US company called CTS. This only affected
American and Canadian-built vehicles. Japanese-built cars have Denso-
supplied pedal assemblies. These are not subject to the sensor recall.

Note that Toyota, like Honda and all other foreign-owned makes, is forced
to buy a certain percentage of their parts from NAFTA-eligible suppliers in
order for their NA-assembled vehicles to be exempt from the various import
tariffs. Just about all of Toyota's recent recalls have involved NA
suppliers. Doesn't say much for us, that's for sure.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

billzz

On Jan 27, 1:47 pm, Making Car Sense <christopherasa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Jan 27, 3:34 pm, billzz <bil...@wildblue.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 27, 11:41 am, "Cameo" <ca...@cameo.invalid> wrote:
>
> > > Really ... Where are wouldbe Toyota buyers turning now first? Wouldn't
> > > it be Honda? I wonder if there are any indication of this yet.
>
> > As a matter of fact, we just took delivery of a Honda Pilot Touring,
> > after test-driving the Toyota Venza. My wife absolutely hated the fly-
> > by-wire steering. It's like a remote-controlled vehicle. It goes
> > where you point it but there is no feedback. We also looked at the
> > new GMC Acadia, bit too Tonka-toy for me. We have twin Jeep Grand
> > Cherokee Laredos, with 140K miles so need reliability for long road
> > trips. The Honda seemed a generation ahead of the others, and the new
> > Jeeps are mere shadows of the old "real" Jeeps. And the Consumer's
> > Report didn't help either. Remarkably, we had few problems with the
> > Jeeps, and I used to drive from Dallas to Sacramento for the Jazz
> > Jubilee, each year. The Honda is bigger, quieter, more fuel-
> > efficient, more automated, more seats (can snug 8 people into one.)
> > Just more of what we wanted and less of what we didn't want.
>
> I still have respect for Toyota, however, a once highly regarded
> reputation will now take some time to recover from this. I've been
> trying to find out if Toyota utilizes Drive-by-Wire technology that
> Honda uses as their throttle system. Wondering if this design is to
> fault or not. Any thoughts?
>
> Chriswww.makingcarsense.comhttp://www.makingcarsense.com/post/toyota-recall-toyota-temporarily-s...

I have no cogent thoughts. I am old. Seventy-one years old. The
first car that I drove was a 1938 Packard 120. The second car was a
1948 Buick Roadmaster. The third was a BMW Isetta, and the fourth was
a 1959 XK-140 Jaguar, which I raced at Laguna Seca. Along the way
there was a Jeep Wagoneer, and a 1962 E-Type Jaguar, toured around
Europe, followed by a 455 Pontiac Bonneville, and, going back to
Europe, a VW Dasher, and some others.

My only real thoughts are that (and I flew airplanes) that you really
can feel things by the "seat of your pants" and that people who do not
have that ability do not have "the right stuff."

Fly-by-wire is a neutral technology. You get it or you do not get
it. The key thing is,does it work? As an aside and an insight into
design, there was the case of an American aircraft which had the
instructions for blowing the canopy written on the canopy. There were
five lines and, if you followed the instructions, you blew the canopy
at the third line, and then never knew what the following lines had to
say. Better than a German WWII aircraft that had the instructions to
pull, with both hands, the latches, and when the pilot did that, the
explosive bolts went off so fast that both of the pilot's hands were
pulled off. More than anyone wants to know.

I do not know what Honda uses as their throttle system, but my
experience leads me to always have another "out." All cars can have
"surges" and it is a poor driver that does no know how to stop a car.
Now, saying that, I realize that my daughter-in-law, carrying our
grand-kids, is pretty unknowing about how to do most anything in a
car.

Incidentally, just yesterday I had to take the mandatory California 70
years old driver's test. The eyesight was 20/20 and I got 100% on the
test, so I am thinking about this Ferrari......

Dillon Pyron

Thus spake "Cameo" <cameo@cameo.invalid> :

>Really ... Where are wouldbe Toyota buyers turning now first? Wouldn't
>it be Honda? I wonder if there are any indication of this yet.

Well, the problem appears to be in an American made part.

I've always been "afraid" of my wife's Camry. When I punch it, it
almost feels like a turbine powered aircraft. Sort of thinks and
starts to spool up. Real mushy.

Her's is "one of the ones", but she has long known how to get out of
that kind of mess. Toyota says to stick the car in neutral and pound
the brake with both feet. Once it's in neutral it's not going to go
any faster. If you're in a turn a little too hot, that puppy is going
to step around on you in a FWD car.
--

- dillon I am not invalid

I love my country, It's my government I fear.

Hey, turnabout's fair play.

billzz

On Jan 27, 6:06 pm, "tww1491" <twau...@***.net> wrote:
> "billzz" <bil...@wildblue.net> wrote in message
>
> news:83105773-8374-4411-9a03-1f3b90c3de51@36g2000yqu.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jan 27, 11:41 am, "Cameo" <ca...@cameo.invalid> wrote:
> >> Really ... Where are wouldbe Toyota buyers turning now first? Wouldn't
> >> it be Honda? I wonder if there are any indication of this yet.
>
> > As a matter of fact, we just took delivery of a Honda Pilot Touring,
> > after test-driving the Toyota Venza. My wife absolutely hated the fly-
> > by-wire steering. It's like a remote-controlled vehicle. It goes
> > where you point it but there is no feedback. We also looked at the
> > new GMC Acadia, bit too Tonka-toy for me. We have twin Jeep Grand
> > Cherokee Laredos, with 140K miles so need reliability for long road
> > trips. The Honda seemed a generation ahead of the others, and the new
> > Jeeps are mere shadows of the old "real" Jeeps. And the Consumer's
> > Report didn't help either. Remarkably, we had few problems with the
> > Jeeps, and I used to drive from Dallas to Sacramento for the Jazz
> > Jubilee, each year. The Honda is bigger, quieter, more fuel-
> > efficient, more automated, more seats (can snug 8 people into one.)
> > Just more of what we wanted and less of what we didn't want.
>
> We still have our 03 Pilot, the 1st year they came out. Still drives like
> new and does not break. Although AWD it gets around 22 on the road.

22 seems good to me. The Jeeps got 17, when we were in Texas. Now
retired, and in California, they only get 15, because the gas is
diluted with corn alchohol. The politicos love it because they get
state tax on every gallon, so the more gallons that you burn, the more
taxes that they get. Few people understand this.

ACAR

On Jan 27, 2:41 pm, "Cameo" <ca...@cameo.invalid> wrote:
> Really ... Where are wouldbe Toyota buyers turning now first? Wouldn't
> it be Honda? I wonder if there are any indication of this yet.

I own both Honda and Toyota vehicles.
Toyota owners tend to want comfort while Honda owners tend to want
responsiveness.
While it might seem that potential Camry buyers would go for an
Accord, I'd guess the numbers will be less than you think. The Accord
will be too noisy and rough riding for many Camry buyers.

The Toyota floor mat issue has been around for a while. That didn't
stop me from buying a new Sienna after putting 250K nearly trouble-
free miles on a 1998 Sienna.

YMMV

Cameo

"ACAR" <dimndsonmywndshld@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1cc88b5e-2395-43e4-b8d2-2bc2f7ab8c65@28g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
> I own both Honda and Toyota vehicles.
> Toyota owners tend to want comfort while Honda owners tend to want
> responsiveness.
> While it might seem that potential Camry buyers would go for an
> Accord, I'd guess the numbers will be less than you think. The Accord
> will be too noisy and rough riding for many Camry buyers.

Interesting comparison. I always wondered if newer Toyotas were quieter
than Hondas because I sure find my '94 Accord pretty noisy. But then, I
had an '84 Corolla before and that was also noisy as hell. True though
that it was not in the same class as Camry or Accord. But how are
Toyotas more comfortable besides the road noise?

Bob Jones

"Cameo" <cameo@cameo.invalid> wrote in message
news:hjsq9i$mt3$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> "ACAR" <dimndsonmywndshld@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1cc88b5e-2395-43e4-b8d2-2bc2f7ab8c65@28g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
>> I own both Honda and Toyota vehicles.
>> Toyota owners tend to want comfort while Honda owners tend to want
>> responsiveness.
>> While it might seem that potential Camry buyers would go for an
>> Accord, I'd guess the numbers will be less than you think. The Accord
>> will be too noisy and rough riding for many Camry buyers.
>
> Interesting comparison. I always wondered if newer Toyotas were quieter
> than Hondas because I sure find my '94 Accord pretty noisy. But then, I
> had an '84 Corolla before and that was also noisy as hell. True though
> that it was not in the same class as Camry or Accord. But how are Toyotas
> more comfortable besides the road noise?
>

Toyotas tend to have softer and quieter ride. Hondas are more sporty and
better handing. Road noise has a lot to do with the kind of tires you put on
too.

Nissan Altima used to be a good car. Not sure if it has gotten better or
worst in terms of quality.

Eternal Searcher

Bob Jones wrote:

> Nissan Altima used to be a good car. Not sure if it has gotten better or
> worst in terms of quality.

Nissan overall has seen its quality slip significantly over the years, to
the point where it is probably the least reliable Japanese car maker. I
wonder if we can blame that on the fact that they are owned by Renault?

Gordon McGrew

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:34:24 -0800 (PST), billzz <billzz@wildblue.net>
wrote:

>On Jan 27, 11:41 am, "Cameo" <ca...@cameo.invalid> wrote:
>> Really ... Where are wouldbe Toyota buyers turning now first? Wouldn't
>> it be Honda? I wonder if there are any indication of this yet.
>
>As a matter of fact, we just took delivery of a Honda Pilot Touring,
>after test-driving the Toyota Venza. My wife absolutely hated the fly-
>by-wire steering.

That can't be right. Surely the steering is a mechanical linkage.
Toyota steering can be pretty numb. Maybe you mean electric power
steering. Honda has that too. I'm not a big fan of it but I would
expect the Honda system to have more road feel than Toyota.

Cameo

"Eternal Searcher" <eternalsearcherREMOVE7219@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:hjtnb4$han$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> Nissan overall has seen its quality slip significantly over the years,
> to
> the point where it is probably the least reliable Japanese car maker.
> I
> wonder if we can blame that on the fact that they are owned by
> Renault?

Maybe they should go back to the Datsun name. Any idea how Subarus rank
in the quality category?

Cameo

"Gordon McGrew" <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:j4o4m51chorqm0h86ip6iffierg4ql16ps@4ax.com...
> That can't be right. Surely the steering is a mechanical linkage.
> Toyota steering can be pretty numb. Maybe you mean electric power
> steering. Honda has that too. I'm not a big fan of it but I would
> expect the Honda system to have more road feel than Toyota.

The German cars seem to have a good road feel.