Turning Rotors: a case study...
 

With all of the debate about turning rotors I thought I'd do a bit of
measuring and documenting while doing a brake job. Here is my results.


The car 1987(?) Honda accord; poor shape, 200,000K no brakes due to a
ruptured line. This soaked the pads and as per MAP standards required new
pads. Now disregarding the brake line (and the springs off in the right read
drum that he couldn't afford to repair) the car would appear as a prime
candidate for a DIY brake job in the front driveway. Both rotors had no
major grooves, very small ridge> I could picture this as a easy pad slap.

Now ASE standards have you measure several different angles to determine if
a re-cut is needed. We concentrate on the warpage factor. I don't feel like
buying a few hundred dollars more of measuring tools to tell me what one
pass on a lathe will tell me.

The right front rotor measured at .747 to start
I took one pass at .002 on each side
Final measurement was .742

The left front rotor measured at .697 on the outside edge and .703 at the
inside edge to start
I took one pass at .002 on each side. the start of the cut was heavy, I
thought I'd have to do a second cut. Often we will see the O/S edge a
wee bit thinner than the inside edge, but when I returned to the lath one
cut was all that was needed.
Final measurement was .696

I forgot to write it down, but discard was in the .660 range.

Most people who do brakes at home won't measure the rotors and it was
interesting to see the big difference in specs from the left to the right to
start. We thought there would be at least one new rotor needed, but specs
are specs.


You can see by the measurements that the lath action took off very little
metal, not enough to make a difference on heat dissipation, but the little
work guaranteed me that this car (the POS it was) had decent front brakes
when he left.
This is why I turn rotors every time. In the big picture, more metal is lost
in the time between brake jobs by the pads than on a simple clean up on a
lath.





--
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
ASE Undercar Specialist

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troub...l_obd_main.htm
http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/

Re: Turning Rotors: a case study...
 

Stephen H wrote:
> With all of the debate about turning rotors I thought I'd do a bit of
> measuring and documenting while doing a brake job. Here is my results.
>
>
> The car 1987(?) Honda accord; poor shape, 200,000K no brakes due to a
> ruptured line. This soaked the pads and as per MAP standards required new
> pads. Now disregarding the brake line (and the springs off in the right read
> drum that he couldn't afford to repair) the car would appear as a prime
> candidate for a DIY brake job in the front driveway. Both rotors had no
> major grooves, very small ridge> I could picture this as a easy pad slap.
>
> Now ASE standards have you measure several different angles to determine if
> a re-cut is needed. We concentrate on the warpage factor. I don't feel like
> buying a few hundred dollars more of measuring tools to tell me what one
> pass on a lathe will tell me.
>
> The right front rotor measured at .747 to start
> I took one pass at .002 on each side
> Final measurement was .742
>
> The left front rotor measured at .697 on the outside edge and .703 at the
> inside edge to start
> I took one pass at .002 on each side. the start of the cut was heavy, I
> thought I'd have to do a second cut. Often we will see the O/S edge a
> wee bit thinner than the inside edge, but when I returned to the lath one
> cut was all that was needed.
> Final measurement was .696
>
> I forgot to write it down, but discard was in the .660 range.
>
> Most people who do brakes at home won't measure the rotors and it was
> interesting to see the big difference in specs from the left to the right to
> start. We thought there would be at least one new rotor needed, but specs
> are specs.
>
>
> You can see by the measurements that the lath action took off very little
> metal, not enough to make a difference on heat dissipation, but the little
> work guaranteed me that this car (the POS it was) had decent front brakes
> when he left.
> This is why I turn rotors every time. In the big picture, more metal is lost
> in the time between brake jobs by the pads than on a simple clean up on a
> lath.
>
>
>
>
>
what does measuring disk thickness tell you about how accurately the
disk was kept axial with the bearing?

Re: Turning Rotors: a case study...
 

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:AP6dndMeh4tniDzenZ2dnUVZ_tidnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> Stephen H wrote:
>> With all of the debate about turning rotors I thought I'd do a bit of
>> measuring and documenting while doing a brake job. Here is my results.
>>
>>
>> The car 1987(?) Honda accord; poor shape, 200,000K no brakes due to a
>> ruptured line. This soaked the pads and as per MAP standards required new
>> pads. Now disregarding the brake line (and the springs off in the right
>> read drum that he couldn't afford to repair) the car would appear as a
>> prime candidate for a DIY brake job in the front driveway. Both rotors
>> had no major grooves, very small ridge> I could picture this as a easy
>> pad slap.
>>
>> Now ASE standards have you measure several different angles to determine
>> if a re-cut is needed. We concentrate on the warpage factor. I don't feel
>> like buying a few hundred dollars more of measuring tools to tell me what
>> one pass on a lathe will tell me.
>>
>> The right front rotor measured at .747 to start
>> I took one pass at .002 on each side
>> Final measurement was .742
>>
>> The left front rotor measured at .697 on the outside edge and .703 at the
>> inside edge to start
>> I took one pass at .002 on each side. the start of the cut was heavy,
>> I thought I'd have to do a second cut. Often we will see the O/S edge a
>> wee bit thinner than the inside edge, but when I returned to the lath one
>> cut was all that was needed.
>> Final measurement was .696
>>
>> I forgot to write it down, but discard was in the .660 range.
>>
>> Most people who do brakes at home won't measure the rotors and it was
>> interesting to see the big difference in specs from the left to the right
>> to start. We thought there would be at least one new rotor needed, but
>> specs are specs.
>>
>>
>> You can see by the measurements that the lath action took off very little
>> metal, not enough to make a difference on heat dissipation, but the
>> little work guaranteed me that this car (the POS it was) had decent front
>> brakes when he left.
>> This is why I turn rotors every time. In the big picture, more metal is
>> lost in the time between brake jobs by the pads than on a simple clean up
>> on a lath.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> what does measuring disk thickness tell you about how accurately the disk
> was kept axial with the bearing?

If this were the only factor in the performance of brakes than I would be
concerned. But by just removing the tire and rotor you can effect the
bearing to rotor play if a small piece of dirt were to fall between them. In
fact, how do you know your "new Honda replacement rotor is true to your old
wheel bearing?. We do have a 5000$ on car lathe, that is suppose to be "the
most accurate way to turn the brakes" but it broke again. (600$ was the last
repair bill) and having a brother-in law that is a machinist, we can see no
great advantage to turning it on the car of off, as long as the turn job is
true.

Wear of the rotor and warpage (runout) are the two biggest factors of a
brake job.


--
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
ASE Undercar Specialist

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troub...l_obd_main.htm
http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/

Re: Turning Rotors: a case study...
 

Personally I have had very poor results in dealing with warped rotors
through turning them. On my '03 Accord the rotors warped enough to
cause brake shudder. Turning them helped for about 50 miles, when they
warped again. New Brembo rotors cured the problem completely. 20,000
miles later the brakes are still working perfectly.

John

Re: Turning Rotors: a case study...
 

"John Horner" <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote
> Personally I have had very poor results in dealing with
warped rotors
> through turning them. On my '03 Accord the rotors warped
enough to
> cause brake shudder. Turning them helped for about 50
miles, when they
> warped again. New Brembo rotors cured the problem
completely. 20,000
> miles later the brakes are still working perfectly.

Where did you buy these? How much did they cost? They're not
OEM, right?

Re: Turning Rotors: a case study...
 

Stephen H wrote:

> The left front rotor measured at .697 on the outside edge and .703 at the
> inside edge to start
> I took one pass at .002 on each side. the start of the cut was heavy, I
> thought I'd have to do a second cut. Often we will see the O/S edge a
> wee bit thinner than the inside edge, but when I returned to the lath one
> cut was all that was needed.
> Final measurement was .696

I'm confused. You just told us that you took 0.004" of material off the
rotor, but your initial and final thicknesses only vary by 0.001"?

Re: Turning Rotors: a case study...
 

Stephen H wrote:
> With all of the debate about turning rotors I thought I'd do a bit of
> measuring and documenting while doing a brake job. Here is my results.
>
>
> The car 1987(?) Honda accord; poor shape, 200,000K no brakes due to a
> ruptured line. This soaked the pads and as per MAP standards required new
> pads. Now disregarding the brake line (and the springs off in the right read
> drum that he couldn't afford to repair) the car would appear as a prime
> candidate for a DIY brake job in the front driveway. Both rotors had no
> major grooves, very small ridge> I could picture this as a easy pad slap.
>
> Now ASE standards have you measure several different angles to determine if
> a re-cut is needed. We concentrate on the warpage factor. I don't feel like
> buying a few hundred dollars more of measuring tools to tell me what one
> pass on a lathe will tell me.
>
> The right front rotor measured at .747 to start
> I took one pass at .002 on each side
> Final measurement was .742
>
> The left front rotor measured at .697 on the outside edge and .703 at the
> inside edge to start
> I took one pass at .002 on each side. the start of the cut was heavy, I
> thought I'd have to do a second cut. Often we will see the O/S edge a
> wee bit thinner than the inside edge, but when I returned to the lath one
> cut was all that was needed.
> Final measurement was .696
>
> I forgot to write it down, but discard was in the .660 range.
>
> Most people who do brakes at home won't measure the rotors and it was
> interesting to see the big difference in specs from the left to the right to
> start. We thought there would be at least one new rotor needed, but specs
> are specs.
>
>
> You can see by the measurements that the lath action took off very little
> metal, not enough to make a difference on heat dissipation, but the little
> work guaranteed me that this car (the POS it was) had decent front brakes
> when he left.
> This is why I turn rotors every time. In the big picture, more metal is lost
> in the time between brake jobs by the pads than on a simple clean up on a
> lath.
>

anyway I installed new front rotors on my taurus today, turning the old
ones was $20 ea, new ones was $27...guess I could've saved $14........
Oh well, maybe next time..

A couple years ago my brother asked me to fix his brakes, said they just
quit workin'. The rotors were wore down through the vents, mustaben
steel on steel for at least 10,000 miles..... wonder if they were past
the minimum thickness....

Re: Turning Rotors: a case study...
 

Stephen H wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:AP6dndMeh4tniDzenZ2dnUVZ_tidnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>>Stephen H wrote:
>>
>>>With all of the debate about turning rotors I thought I'd do a bit of
>>>measuring and documenting while doing a brake job. Here is my results.
>>>
>>>
>>>The car 1987(?) Honda accord; poor shape, 200,000K no brakes due to a
>>>ruptured line. This soaked the pads and as per MAP standards required new
>>>pads. Now disregarding the brake line (and the springs off in the right
>>>read drum that he couldn't afford to repair) the car would appear as a
>>>prime candidate for a DIY brake job in the front driveway. Both rotors
>>>had no major grooves, very small ridge> I could picture this as a easy
>>>pad slap.
>>>
>>>Now ASE standards have you measure several different angles to determine
>>>if a re-cut is needed. We concentrate on the warpage factor. I don't feel
>>>like buying a few hundred dollars more of measuring tools to tell me what
>>>one pass on a lathe will tell me.
>>>
>>>The right front rotor measured at .747 to start
>>> I took one pass at .002 on each side
>>> Final measurement was .742
>>>
>>>The left front rotor measured at .697 on the outside edge and .703 at the
>>>inside edge to start
>>> I took one pass at .002 on each side. the start of the cut was heavy,
>>>I thought I'd have to do a second cut. Often we will see the O/S edge a
>>>wee bit thinner than the inside edge, but when I returned to the lath one
>>>cut was all that was needed.
>>> Final measurement was .696
>>>
>>>I forgot to write it down, but discard was in the .660 range.
>>>
>>>Most people who do brakes at home won't measure the rotors and it was
>>>interesting to see the big difference in specs from the left to the right
>>>to start. We thought there would be at least one new rotor needed, but
>>>specs are specs.
>>>
>>>
>>>You can see by the measurements that the lath action took off very little
>>>metal, not enough to make a difference on heat dissipation, but the
>>>little work guaranteed me that this car (the POS it was) had decent front
>>>brakes when he left.
>>>This is why I turn rotors every time. In the big picture, more metal is
>>>lost in the time between brake jobs by the pads than on a simple clean up
>>>on a lath.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>what does measuring disk thickness tell you about how accurately the disk
>>was kept axial with the bearing?
>
>
> If this were the only factor in the performance of brakes than I would be
> concerned. But by just removing the tire and rotor you can effect the
> bearing to rotor play if a small piece of dirt were to fall between them.

ok, so now let's /cut/ a disk with a piece of dirt under the rotor. now
we have a disk that is perfectly planar with respect to the dirt, not
the mounting. and that causes brake judder.

> In
> fact, how do you know your "new Honda replacement rotor is true to your old
> wheel bearing?.

well, i've never had a problem with a new disk. i've had repeated
problems with skimmed disks. you figure it out. labor and a $5k
machine to futz about with a part that can be replaced with a flawless
new disk for $50-$60 in about 10 minutes? forget it.

> We do have a 5000$ on car lathe, that is suppose to be "the
> most accurate way to turn the brakes" but it broke again. (600$ was the last
> repair bill) and having a brother-in law that is a machinist, we can see no
> great advantage to turning it on the car of off, as long as the turn job is
> true.
>
> Wear of the rotor and warpage (runout) are the two biggest factors of a
> brake job.

no kidding.

Re: Turning Rotors: a case study...
 

Elle wrote:
> "John Horner" <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote
>
>>Personally I have had very poor results in dealing with
>
> warped rotors
>
>>through turning them. On my '03 Accord the rotors warped
>
> enough to
>
>>cause brake shudder. Turning them helped for about 50
>
> miles, when they
>
>>warped again. New Brembo rotors cured the problem
>
> completely. 20,000
>
>>miles later the brakes are still working perfectly.
>
>
> Where did you buy these? How much did they cost? They're not
> OEM, right?
>
>
summitsportcompact.com has great prices on brembo disks. quality is
very good.

Re: Turning Rotors: a case study...
 

John Horner wrote:
> Personally I have had very poor results in dealing with warped rotors
> through turning them. On my '03 Accord the rotors warped enough to
> cause brake shudder. Turning them helped for about 50 miles, when they
> warped again.

my experience exactly. thank you.

> New Brembo rotors cured the problem completely. 20,000
> miles later the brakes are still working perfectly.
>
> John

Re: Turning Rotors: a case study...
 

Elle wrote:
> "John Horner" <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote
>

>>warped again. New Brembo rotors cured the problem
>
> completely. 20,000
>
>>miles later the brakes are still working perfectly.
>
>
> Where did you buy these? How much did they cost? They're not
> OEM, right?
>
>

One of the online parts sources, though I forget which one. It was
probably one of: rockauto.com, alleurasianautoparts.com or
discountautoparts.com.

Personally I trust professional level aftermarket brands, but stay away
from the no name and "value" brands of auto parts.

No need to go with OEM for these. I hated the rotors which came on the
car, so why give Honda more of my money?

John

Re: Turning Rotors: a case study...
 

User wrote:

> anyway I installed new front rotors on my taurus today, turning the old
> ones was $20 ea, new ones was $27...guess I could've saved $14........
> Oh well, maybe next time..


Not worth the $14 "savings" IMO.

John

Re: Turning Rotors: a case study...
 

"John Horner" <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote
> One of the online parts sources, though I forget which
one. It was
> probably one of: rockauto.com, alleurasianautoparts.com
or
> discountautoparts.com.
>
> Personally I trust professional level aftermarket brands,
but stay away
> from the no name and "value" brands of auto parts.
>
> No need to go with OEM for these. I hated the rotors
which came on the
> car, so why give Honda more of my money?

Sounds good; appreciate the info.

Re: Turning Rotors: a case study...
 

> well, i've never had a problem with a new disk. i've had repeated
> problems with skimmed disks. you figure it out. labor and a $5k machine
> to futz about with a part that can be replaced with a flawless new disk
> for $50-$60 in about 10 minutes? forget it.
>
>> We do have a 5000$ on car lathe, that is suppose to be "the most accurate
>> way to turn the brakes" but it broke again. (600$ was the last repair
>> bill) and having a brother-in law that is a machinist, we can see no
>> great advantage to turning it on the car of off, as long as the turn job
>> is true.
>>
>> Wear of the rotor and warpage (runout) are the two biggest factors of a
>> brake job.
>
> no kidding.


You may have had problems, and in a perfect world everyone would replace
parts with new when worn with high quality stuff, but many want it done
cheap.

Anyway my point was to show how little metal comes off during a lathe job.



--
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
ASE Undercar Specialist

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troub...l_obd_main.htm
http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/

Re: Turning Rotors: a case study...
 

>
> anyway I installed new front rotors on my taurus today, turning the old
> ones was $20 ea, new ones was $27...guess I could've saved $14........ Oh
> well, maybe next time..
>
> A couple years ago my brother asked me to fix his brakes, said they just
> quit workin'. The rotors were wore down through the vents, mustaben steel
> on steel for at least 10,000 miles..... wonder if they were past the
> minimum thickness....


Seen that before; and had customers drive out of the store like that too!

As for the Taurus, You did just fine
Ford Taurus factory rotors were crap. Wouldn't hold a clean cut for 2
months. Almost all Taurus brake jobs would have pulsation when they came in
and most cutting would help, but on a few they would come back. we learned
new rotors were the only real solution. Even on My and my Mom's Taurus.



--
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
ASE Undercar Specialist

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troub...l_obd_main.htm
http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/