Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html

Hopefully this is correct now.

Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

TeGGeR® wrote:

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html

Hopefully this is correct now.

Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
--------------------------------------
I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
"RPM".

Terry

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

TeGGeR® wrote:

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html

Hopefully this is correct now.

Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
--------------------------------------
I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
"RPM".

Terry

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
> TeGGeR® wrote:
>
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>
> Hopefully this is correct now.
>
> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>
> --
> TeGGeR®
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
> --------------------------------------
> I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
> for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
> kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
> hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
> to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
> igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
> "RPM".
>
> Terry
>
interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the time
to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
> TeGGeR® wrote:
>
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>
> Hopefully this is correct now.
>
> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>
> --
> TeGGeR®
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
> --------------------------------------
> I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
> for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
> kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
> hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
> to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
> igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
> "RPM".
>
> Terry
>
interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the time
to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
rw@speakeasy.net:

> r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>> TeGGeR® wrote:
>>
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>
>> Hopefully this is correct now.
>>
>> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>
>> --
>> TeGGeR®
>>
>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>> --------------------------------------
>> I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>> for for some PWM control.


"PWM" control?


> It senses the back EMF and
>> kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>> hot spark.


Do you know the mechanism by which it sees the back EMF?



>> I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>> to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>> igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>> "RPM".
>>
>> Terry
>>
> interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the time
> to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>
>


So how come my news server has this message, but not Terry's?

And yes, that's one of the very nice features about electronic ignition
versus Kettering. With Kettering, the very moments you need a fat spark are
the very moments you get a weaker and weaker spark since the system has no
way of increasing dwell time to compensate for RPM.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
rw@speakeasy.net:

> r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>> TeGGeR® wrote:
>>
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>
>> Hopefully this is correct now.
>>
>> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>
>> --
>> TeGGeR®
>>
>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>> --------------------------------------
>> I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>> for for some PWM control.


"PWM" control?


> It senses the back EMF and
>> kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>> hot spark.


Do you know the mechanism by which it sees the back EMF?



>> I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>> to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>> igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>> "RPM".
>>
>> Terry
>>
> interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the time
> to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>
>


So how come my news server has this message, but not Terry's?

And yes, that's one of the very nice features about electronic ignition
versus Kettering. With Kettering, the very moments you need a fat spark are
the very moments you get a weaker and weaker spark since the system has no
way of increasing dwell time to compensate for RPM.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

TeGGeR® wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
> rw@speakeasy.net:
>
>
>>r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>
>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>>
>>>Hopefully this is correct now.
>>>
>>>Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>>
>>>--
>>>TeGGeR®
>>>
>>>The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>>www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>>--------------------------------------
>>>I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>>>for for some PWM control.
>
>
>
> "PWM" control?
>
>
>
>>It senses the back EMF and
>>
>>>kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>>>hot spark.
>
>
>
> Do you know the mechanism by which it sees the back EMF?

as the magnetic field decays inducing a current into the secondary [high
voltage] coil, the same is going on with the primary coil, but smaller.
just need to measure it. presumably the chips we see in graham's
photos either have a map or even calculate "dwell" based on what they
measure. but i'm guessing, i don't know for sure.

>
>
>
>
>>>I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>>>to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>>>igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>>>"RPM".
>>>
>>>Terry
>>>
>>
>>interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the time
>>to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>>
>>
>
>
>
> So how come my news server has this message, but not Terry's?

ah! news servers! fickle things.

>
> And yes, that's one of the very nice features about electronic ignition
> versus Kettering. With Kettering, the very moments you need a fat spark are
> the very moments you get a weaker and weaker spark since the system has no
> way of increasing dwell time to compensate for RPM.
>
which is why people used to experiment with dual plugs and dual ignition
systems occasionally. total pains in the rear and highly unreliable,
but it was a stab in the right direction. but you're right, once
electronic ignition came in, and it wasn't unreliable or expensive,
suddenly, it was ok to go electronic with everything. and that's been a
good thing up until recently. i don't see current chip technology
physically having the longevity we've been so far used to. and of
course, with increasing reliance on mysterious black box electronic
componentry, how do you know whether a manufacturer caves in to the
temptation to program in an end of life? that already happens with ink
jet cartridges, regardless of their fill state.

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

TeGGeR® wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
> rw@speakeasy.net:
>
>
>>r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>
>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>>
>>>Hopefully this is correct now.
>>>
>>>Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>>
>>>--
>>>TeGGeR®
>>>
>>>The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>>www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>>--------------------------------------
>>>I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>>>for for some PWM control.
>
>
>
> "PWM" control?
>
>
>
>>It senses the back EMF and
>>
>>>kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>>>hot spark.
>
>
>
> Do you know the mechanism by which it sees the back EMF?

as the magnetic field decays inducing a current into the secondary [high
voltage] coil, the same is going on with the primary coil, but smaller.
just need to measure it. presumably the chips we see in graham's
photos either have a map or even calculate "dwell" based on what they
measure. but i'm guessing, i don't know for sure.

>
>
>
>
>>>I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>>>to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>>>igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>>>"RPM".
>>>
>>>Terry
>>>
>>
>>interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the time
>>to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>>
>>
>
>
>
> So how come my news server has this message, but not Terry's?

ah! news servers! fickle things.

>
> And yes, that's one of the very nice features about electronic ignition
> versus Kettering. With Kettering, the very moments you need a fat spark are
> the very moments you get a weaker and weaker spark since the system has no
> way of increasing dwell time to compensate for RPM.
>
which is why people used to experiment with dual plugs and dual ignition
systems occasionally. total pains in the rear and highly unreliable,
but it was a stab in the right direction. but you're right, once
electronic ignition came in, and it wasn't unreliable or expensive,
suddenly, it was ok to go electronic with everything. and that's been a
good thing up until recently. i don't see current chip technology
physically having the longevity we've been so far used to. and of
course, with increasing reliance on mysterious black box electronic
componentry, how do you know whether a manufacturer caves in to the
temptation to program in an end of life? that already happens with ink
jet cartridges, regardless of their fill state.

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns9673D2868F816tegger@207.14.113.17:

> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>
> Hopefully this is correct now.

Looks good!
>
> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>

"flyback" voltage;when the coil is charged,the magnetic field builds
up,then when the charging current is removed,the collapsing magnetic field
generates a voltage in the opposite direction of the charging current.

The flyback voltage IS the HV pulse that the spark plugs get.

The mag field is generated by the primary,12V side of the coil,but the
collapsing magnetic field induces the flyback pulse in both the primary and
secondary of the coil,that's how the HIGH voltage is generated;the
secondary has many more turns of a finer wire(finer to fit more turns in
the same space);more turns,the higher the voltage induced.In the automotive
ignition coil,the primary is connected to the secondary,and the HV current
also travels through the primary.

That is why there's a bypass diode,it shunts the flyback current around the
Darlington,to keep it from breaking it down from over-voltage.It's part of
the path for the flyback voltage.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns9673D2868F816tegger@207.14.113.17:

> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>
> Hopefully this is correct now.

Looks good!
>
> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>

"flyback" voltage;when the coil is charged,the magnetic field builds
up,then when the charging current is removed,the collapsing magnetic field
generates a voltage in the opposite direction of the charging current.

The flyback voltage IS the HV pulse that the spark plugs get.

The mag field is generated by the primary,12V side of the coil,but the
collapsing magnetic field induces the flyback pulse in both the primary and
secondary of the coil,that's how the HIGH voltage is generated;the
secondary has many more turns of a finer wire(finer to fit more turns in
the same space);more turns,the higher the voltage induced.In the automotive
ignition coil,the primary is connected to the secondary,and the HV current
also travels through the primary.

That is why there's a bypass diode,it shunts the flyback current around the
Darlington,to keep it from breaking it down from over-voltage.It's part of
the path for the flyback voltage.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
rw@speakeasy.net:

> r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>> TeGGeR® wrote:
>>
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>
>> Hopefully this is correct now.
>>
>> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>
>> --
>> TeGGeR®
>>
>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>> --------------------------------------
>> I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>> for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
>> kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>> hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>> to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>> igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>> "RPM".
>>
>> Terry
>>
> interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the time
> to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>
>

That is probably what the IC in the igniter does.(control PW.)
The ECU merely provides the trigger at the proper time.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
rw@speakeasy.net:

> r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>> TeGGeR® wrote:
>>
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>
>> Hopefully this is correct now.
>>
>> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>
>> --
>> TeGGeR®
>>
>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>> --------------------------------------
>> I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>> for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
>> kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>> hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>> to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>> igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>> "RPM".
>>
>> Terry
>>
> interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the time
> to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>
>

That is probably what the IC in the igniter does.(control PW.)
The ECU merely provides the trigger at the proper time.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns9673E5376EE89tegger@207.14.113.17:

> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
> rw@speakeasy.net:
>
>> r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>>
>>> Hopefully this is correct now.
>>>
>>> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>>
>>> --
>>> TeGGeR®
>>>
>>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>> --------------------------------------
>>> I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>>> for for some PWM control.
>
>
> "PWM" control?

Pulse Width Modulation.

>
>
>> It senses the back EMF and
>>> kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>>> hot spark.
>
>
> Do you know the mechanism by which it sees the back EMF?
>
>
>
>>> I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>>> to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>>> igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>>> "RPM".


I suspect the IC inside the igniter controls coil current,by means of
varying the pulse width(that PWM).
I haven't looked for any IC app notes to see exactly what they're
doing,though.If anyone has a URL for an app note for these Ics,I'll go
look.


>>>
>>> Terry
>>>
>> interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the
>> time to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>>
>>
>
>
> So how come my news server has this message, but not Terry's?
>
> And yes, that's one of the very nice features about electronic
> ignition versus Kettering. With Kettering, the very moments you need a
> fat spark are the very moments you get a weaker and weaker spark since
> the system has no way of increasing dwell time to compensate for RPM.
>



--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns9673E5376EE89tegger@207.14.113.17:

> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
> rw@speakeasy.net:
>
>> r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>>
>>> Hopefully this is correct now.
>>>
>>> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>>
>>> --
>>> TeGGeR®
>>>
>>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>> --------------------------------------
>>> I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>>> for for some PWM control.
>
>
> "PWM" control?

Pulse Width Modulation.

>
>
>> It senses the back EMF and
>>> kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>>> hot spark.
>
>
> Do you know the mechanism by which it sees the back EMF?
>
>
>
>>> I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>>> to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>>> igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>>> "RPM".


I suspect the IC inside the igniter controls coil current,by means of
varying the pulse width(that PWM).
I haven't looked for any IC app notes to see exactly what they're
doing,though.If anyone has a URL for an app note for these Ics,I'll go
look.


>>>
>>> Terry
>>>
>> interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the
>> time to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>>
>>
>
>
> So how come my news server has this message, but not Terry's?
>
> And yes, that's one of the very nice features about electronic
> ignition versus Kettering. With Kettering, the very moments you need a
> fat spark are the very moments you get a weaker and weaker spark since
> the system has no way of increasing dwell time to compensate for RPM.
>



--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net