Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html

Hopefully this is correct now.

Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

TeGGeR® wrote:

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html

Hopefully this is correct now.

Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
--------------------------------------
I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
"RPM".

Terry

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

TeGGeR® wrote:

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html

Hopefully this is correct now.

Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
--------------------------------------
I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
"RPM".

Terry

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
> TeGGeR® wrote:
>
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>
> Hopefully this is correct now.
>
> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>
> --
> TeGGeR®
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
> --------------------------------------
> I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
> for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
> kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
> hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
> to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
> igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
> "RPM".
>
> Terry
>
interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the time
to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
> TeGGeR® wrote:
>
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>
> Hopefully this is correct now.
>
> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>
> --
> TeGGeR®
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
> --------------------------------------
> I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
> for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
> kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
> hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
> to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
> igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
> "RPM".
>
> Terry
>
interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the time
to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
rw@speakeasy.net:

> r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>> TeGGeR® wrote:
>>
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>
>> Hopefully this is correct now.
>>
>> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>
>> --
>> TeGGeR®
>>
>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>> --------------------------------------
>> I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>> for for some PWM control.


"PWM" control?


> It senses the back EMF and
>> kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>> hot spark.


Do you know the mechanism by which it sees the back EMF?



>> I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>> to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>> igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>> "RPM".
>>
>> Terry
>>
> interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the time
> to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>
>


So how come my news server has this message, but not Terry's?

And yes, that's one of the very nice features about electronic ignition
versus Kettering. With Kettering, the very moments you need a fat spark are
the very moments you get a weaker and weaker spark since the system has no
way of increasing dwell time to compensate for RPM.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
rw@speakeasy.net:

> r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>> TeGGeR® wrote:
>>
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>
>> Hopefully this is correct now.
>>
>> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>
>> --
>> TeGGeR®
>>
>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>> --------------------------------------
>> I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>> for for some PWM control.


"PWM" control?


> It senses the back EMF and
>> kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>> hot spark.


Do you know the mechanism by which it sees the back EMF?



>> I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>> to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>> igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>> "RPM".
>>
>> Terry
>>
> interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the time
> to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>
>


So how come my news server has this message, but not Terry's?

And yes, that's one of the very nice features about electronic ignition
versus Kettering. With Kettering, the very moments you need a fat spark are
the very moments you get a weaker and weaker spark since the system has no
way of increasing dwell time to compensate for RPM.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

TeGGeR® wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
> rw@speakeasy.net:
>
>
>>r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>
>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>>
>>>Hopefully this is correct now.
>>>
>>>Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>>
>>>--
>>>TeGGeR®
>>>
>>>The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>>www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>>--------------------------------------
>>>I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>>>for for some PWM control.
>
>
>
> "PWM" control?
>
>
>
>>It senses the back EMF and
>>
>>>kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>>>hot spark.
>
>
>
> Do you know the mechanism by which it sees the back EMF?

as the magnetic field decays inducing a current into the secondary [high
voltage] coil, the same is going on with the primary coil, but smaller.
just need to measure it. presumably the chips we see in graham's
photos either have a map or even calculate "dwell" based on what they
measure. but i'm guessing, i don't know for sure.

>
>
>
>
>>>I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>>>to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>>>igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>>>"RPM".
>>>
>>>Terry
>>>
>>
>>interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the time
>>to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>>
>>
>
>
>
> So how come my news server has this message, but not Terry's?

ah! news servers! fickle things.

>
> And yes, that's one of the very nice features about electronic ignition
> versus Kettering. With Kettering, the very moments you need a fat spark are
> the very moments you get a weaker and weaker spark since the system has no
> way of increasing dwell time to compensate for RPM.
>
which is why people used to experiment with dual plugs and dual ignition
systems occasionally. total pains in the rear and highly unreliable,
but it was a stab in the right direction. but you're right, once
electronic ignition came in, and it wasn't unreliable or expensive,
suddenly, it was ok to go electronic with everything. and that's been a
good thing up until recently. i don't see current chip technology
physically having the longevity we've been so far used to. and of
course, with increasing reliance on mysterious black box electronic
componentry, how do you know whether a manufacturer caves in to the
temptation to program in an end of life? that already happens with ink
jet cartridges, regardless of their fill state.

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

TeGGeR® wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
> rw@speakeasy.net:
>
>
>>r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>
>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>>
>>>Hopefully this is correct now.
>>>
>>>Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>>
>>>--
>>>TeGGeR®
>>>
>>>The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>>www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>>--------------------------------------
>>>I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>>>for for some PWM control.
>
>
>
> "PWM" control?
>
>
>
>>It senses the back EMF and
>>
>>>kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>>>hot spark.
>
>
>
> Do you know the mechanism by which it sees the back EMF?

as the magnetic field decays inducing a current into the secondary [high
voltage] coil, the same is going on with the primary coil, but smaller.
just need to measure it. presumably the chips we see in graham's
photos either have a map or even calculate "dwell" based on what they
measure. but i'm guessing, i don't know for sure.

>
>
>
>
>>>I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>>>to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>>>igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>>>"RPM".
>>>
>>>Terry
>>>
>>
>>interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the time
>>to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>>
>>
>
>
>
> So how come my news server has this message, but not Terry's?

ah! news servers! fickle things.

>
> And yes, that's one of the very nice features about electronic ignition
> versus Kettering. With Kettering, the very moments you need a fat spark are
> the very moments you get a weaker and weaker spark since the system has no
> way of increasing dwell time to compensate for RPM.
>
which is why people used to experiment with dual plugs and dual ignition
systems occasionally. total pains in the rear and highly unreliable,
but it was a stab in the right direction. but you're right, once
electronic ignition came in, and it wasn't unreliable or expensive,
suddenly, it was ok to go electronic with everything. and that's been a
good thing up until recently. i don't see current chip technology
physically having the longevity we've been so far used to. and of
course, with increasing reliance on mysterious black box electronic
componentry, how do you know whether a manufacturer caves in to the
temptation to program in an end of life? that already happens with ink
jet cartridges, regardless of their fill state.

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns9673D2868F816tegger@207.14.113.17:

> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>
> Hopefully this is correct now.

Looks good!
>
> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>

"flyback" voltage;when the coil is charged,the magnetic field builds
up,then when the charging current is removed,the collapsing magnetic field
generates a voltage in the opposite direction of the charging current.

The flyback voltage IS the HV pulse that the spark plugs get.

The mag field is generated by the primary,12V side of the coil,but the
collapsing magnetic field induces the flyback pulse in both the primary and
secondary of the coil,that's how the HIGH voltage is generated;the
secondary has many more turns of a finer wire(finer to fit more turns in
the same space);more turns,the higher the voltage induced.In the automotive
ignition coil,the primary is connected to the secondary,and the HV current
also travels through the primary.

That is why there's a bypass diode,it shunts the flyback current around the
Darlington,to keep it from breaking it down from over-voltage.It's part of
the path for the flyback voltage.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns9673D2868F816tegger@207.14.113.17:

> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>
> Hopefully this is correct now.

Looks good!
>
> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>

"flyback" voltage;when the coil is charged,the magnetic field builds
up,then when the charging current is removed,the collapsing magnetic field
generates a voltage in the opposite direction of the charging current.

The flyback voltage IS the HV pulse that the spark plugs get.

The mag field is generated by the primary,12V side of the coil,but the
collapsing magnetic field induces the flyback pulse in both the primary and
secondary of the coil,that's how the HIGH voltage is generated;the
secondary has many more turns of a finer wire(finer to fit more turns in
the same space);more turns,the higher the voltage induced.In the automotive
ignition coil,the primary is connected to the secondary,and the HV current
also travels through the primary.

That is why there's a bypass diode,it shunts the flyback current around the
Darlington,to keep it from breaking it down from over-voltage.It's part of
the path for the flyback voltage.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
rw@speakeasy.net:

> r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>> TeGGeR® wrote:
>>
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>
>> Hopefully this is correct now.
>>
>> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>
>> --
>> TeGGeR®
>>
>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>> --------------------------------------
>> I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>> for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
>> kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>> hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>> to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>> igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>> "RPM".
>>
>> Terry
>>
> interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the time
> to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>
>

That is probably what the IC in the igniter does.(control PW.)
The ECU merely provides the trigger at the proper time.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
rw@speakeasy.net:

> r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>> TeGGeR® wrote:
>>
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>
>> Hopefully this is correct now.
>>
>> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>
>> --
>> TeGGeR®
>>
>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>> --------------------------------------
>> I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>> for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
>> kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>> hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>> to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>> igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>> "RPM".
>>
>> Terry
>>
> interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the time
> to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>
>

That is probably what the IC in the igniter does.(control PW.)
The ECU merely provides the trigger at the proper time.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns9673E5376EE89tegger@207.14.113.17:

> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
> rw@speakeasy.net:
>
>> r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>>
>>> Hopefully this is correct now.
>>>
>>> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>>
>>> --
>>> TeGGeR®
>>>
>>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>> --------------------------------------
>>> I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>>> for for some PWM control.
>
>
> "PWM" control?

Pulse Width Modulation.

>
>
>> It senses the back EMF and
>>> kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>>> hot spark.
>
>
> Do you know the mechanism by which it sees the back EMF?
>
>
>
>>> I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>>> to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>>> igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>>> "RPM".


I suspect the IC inside the igniter controls coil current,by means of
varying the pulse width(that PWM).
I haven't looked for any IC app notes to see exactly what they're
doing,though.If anyone has a URL for an app note for these Ics,I'll go
look.


>>>
>>> Terry
>>>
>> interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the
>> time to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>>
>>
>
>
> So how come my news server has this message, but not Terry's?
>
> And yes, that's one of the very nice features about electronic
> ignition versus Kettering. With Kettering, the very moments you need a
> fat spark are the very moments you get a weaker and weaker spark since
> the system has no way of increasing dwell time to compensate for RPM.
>



--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns9673E5376EE89tegger@207.14.113.17:

> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
> rw@speakeasy.net:
>
>> r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>>
>>> Hopefully this is correct now.
>>>
>>> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>>
>>> --
>>> TeGGeR®
>>>
>>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>> --------------------------------------
>>> I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>>> for for some PWM control.
>
>
> "PWM" control?

Pulse Width Modulation.

>
>
>> It senses the back EMF and
>>> kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>>> hot spark.
>
>
> Do you know the mechanism by which it sees the back EMF?
>
>
>
>>> I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>>> to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>>> igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>>> "RPM".


I suspect the IC inside the igniter controls coil current,by means of
varying the pulse width(that PWM).
I haven't looked for any IC app notes to see exactly what they're
doing,though.If anyone has a URL for an app note for these Ics,I'll go
look.


>>>
>>> Terry
>>>
>> interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the
>> time to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>>
>>
>
>
> So how come my news server has this message, but not Terry's?
>
> And yes, that's one of the very nice features about electronic
> ignition versus Kettering. With Kettering, the very moments you need a
> fat spark are the very moments you get a weaker and weaker spark since
> the system has no way of increasing dwell time to compensate for RPM.
>



--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
> rw@speakeasy.net:
>
>
>>r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>
>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>>
>>>Hopefully this is correct now.
>>>
>>>Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>>
>>>--
>>>TeGGeR®
>>>
>>>The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>>www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>>--------------------------------------
>>>I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>>>for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
>>>kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>>>hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>>>to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>>>igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>>>"RPM".
>>>
>>>Terry
>>>
>>
>>interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the time
>>to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>>
>>
>
>
> That is probably what the IC in the igniter does.(control PW.)
> The ECU merely provides the trigger at the proper time.
>
so where does it adjust pulse width - has to be on the front end, right?
if it was on the rear, the timing would be off. or maybe the ecu
already knows what the igniter's timing characteristics are and adjusts
accordingly?...

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
> rw@speakeasy.net:
>
>
>>r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>
>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>>
>>>Hopefully this is correct now.
>>>
>>>Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>>
>>>--
>>>TeGGeR®
>>>
>>>The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>>www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>>--------------------------------------
>>>I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>>>for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
>>>kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>>>hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>>>to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>>>igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>>>"RPM".
>>>
>>>Terry
>>>
>>
>>interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the time
>>to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>>
>>
>
>
> That is probably what the IC in the igniter does.(control PW.)
> The ECU merely provides the trigger at the proper time.
>
so where does it adjust pulse width - has to be on the front end, right?
if it was on the rear, the timing would be off. or maybe the ecu
already knows what the igniter's timing characteristics are and adjusts
accordingly?...

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:U4KdnVF_erM53DPfRVn-jw@speakeasy.net:

> Jim Yanik wrote:
>> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
>> rw@speakeasy.net:
>>
>>
>>>r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>>
>>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>>>
>>>>Hopefully this is correct now.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>TeGGeR®
>>>>
>>>>The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>>>www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>>>--------------------------------------
>>>>I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>>>>for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
>>>>kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>>>>hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>>>>to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>>>>igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>>>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>>>>"RPM".
>>>>
>>>>Terry
>>>>
>>>
>>>interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the
>>>time to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> That is probably what the IC in the igniter does.(control PW.)
>> The ECU merely provides the trigger at the proper time.
>>
> so where does it adjust pulse width - has to be on the front end,
> right?
> if it was on the rear, the timing would be off. or maybe the ecu
> already knows what the igniter's timing characteristics are and
> adjusts accordingly?...
>
>


I think the ECU holds ground on Terminal 4 for the appropriate length of
time, which keeps the igniter driving the coil until ground is removed.
Once ground is removed from Pin 4, the IC switches off coil drive and the
field collapses.

The ECU decides when to apply ground and break it based on the inputs of
various sensors, such as the Crank Angle Sensor. It needs to know current
RPM, cylinder position and crank angle.

Terry is also indicating that the coil is allowed to charge for a longer
time at high RPMs to ensure a fatter spark under harsher conditions.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:U4KdnVF_erM53DPfRVn-jw@speakeasy.net:

> Jim Yanik wrote:
>> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
>> rw@speakeasy.net:
>>
>>
>>>r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>>
>>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>>>
>>>>Hopefully this is correct now.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>TeGGeR®
>>>>
>>>>The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>>>www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>>>--------------------------------------
>>>>I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>>>>for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
>>>>kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>>>>hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>>>>to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>>>>igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>>>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>>>>"RPM".
>>>>
>>>>Terry
>>>>
>>>
>>>interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the
>>>time to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> That is probably what the IC in the igniter does.(control PW.)
>> The ECU merely provides the trigger at the proper time.
>>
> so where does it adjust pulse width - has to be on the front end,
> right?
> if it was on the rear, the timing would be off. or maybe the ecu
> already knows what the igniter's timing characteristics are and
> adjusts accordingly?...
>
>


I think the ECU holds ground on Terminal 4 for the appropriate length of
time, which keeps the igniter driving the coil until ground is removed.
Once ground is removed from Pin 4, the IC switches off coil drive and the
field collapses.

The ECU decides when to apply ground and break it based on the inputs of
various sensors, such as the Crank Angle Sensor. It needs to know current
RPM, cylinder position and crank angle.

Terry is also indicating that the coil is allowed to charge for a longer
time at high RPMs to ensure a fatter spark under harsher conditions.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

TeGGeR® wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
> news:U4KdnVF_erM53DPfRVn-jw@speakeasy.net:
>
>
>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>
>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
>>>rw@speakeasy.net:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>>>>
>>>>>Hopefully this is correct now.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>TeGGeR®
>>>>>
>>>>>The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>>>>www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>>>>--------------------------------------
>>>>>I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>>>>>for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
>>>>>kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>>>>>hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>>>>>to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>>>>>igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>>>>>all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>>>>>"RPM".
>>>>>
>>>>>Terry
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the
>>>>time to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>That is probably what the IC in the igniter does.(control PW.)
>>>The ECU merely provides the trigger at the proper time.
>>>
>>
>>so where does it adjust pulse width - has to be on the front end,
>>right?
>> if it was on the rear, the timing would be off. or maybe the ecu
>>already knows what the igniter's timing characteristics are and
>>adjusts accordingly?...
>>
>>
>
>
>
> I think the ECU holds ground on Terminal 4 for the appropriate length of
> time, which keeps the igniter driving the coil until ground is removed.
> Once ground is removed from Pin 4, the IC switches off coil drive and the
> field collapses.
>
> The ECU decides when to apply ground and break it based on the inputs of
> various sensors, such as the Crank Angle Sensor. It needs to know current
> RPM, cylinder position and crank angle.
>
> Terry is also indicating that the coil is allowed to charge for a longer
> time at high RPMs to ensure a fatter spark under harsher conditions.
>
yes, but that longer time seems to be determined by the igniter, not the
ecu, if i understand jim yanik correctly. it kind of has to be because
only the igniter is set up to meter the actual flyback, and that is
itself a function of the health of the system.

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

TeGGeR® wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
> news:U4KdnVF_erM53DPfRVn-jw@speakeasy.net:
>
>
>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>
>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
>>>rw@speakeasy.net:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>>>>
>>>>>Hopefully this is correct now.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>TeGGeR®
>>>>>
>>>>>The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>>>>www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>>>>--------------------------------------
>>>>>I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>>>>>for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
>>>>>kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>>>>>hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>>>>>to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>>>>>igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>>>>>all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>>>>>"RPM".
>>>>>
>>>>>Terry
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the
>>>>time to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>That is probably what the IC in the igniter does.(control PW.)
>>>The ECU merely provides the trigger at the proper time.
>>>
>>
>>so where does it adjust pulse width - has to be on the front end,
>>right?
>> if it was on the rear, the timing would be off. or maybe the ecu
>>already knows what the igniter's timing characteristics are and
>>adjusts accordingly?...
>>
>>
>
>
>
> I think the ECU holds ground on Terminal 4 for the appropriate length of
> time, which keeps the igniter driving the coil until ground is removed.
> Once ground is removed from Pin 4, the IC switches off coil drive and the
> field collapses.
>
> The ECU decides when to apply ground and break it based on the inputs of
> various sensors, such as the Crank Angle Sensor. It needs to know current
> RPM, cylinder position and crank angle.
>
> Terry is also indicating that the coil is allowed to charge for a longer
> time at high RPMs to ensure a fatter spark under harsher conditions.
>
yes, but that longer time seems to be determined by the igniter, not the
ecu, if i understand jim yanik correctly. it kind of has to be because
only the igniter is set up to meter the actual flyback, and that is
itself a function of the health of the system.

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns9674E85E11CCFtegger@207.14.113.17:

> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
> news:U4KdnVF_erM53DPfRVn-jw@speakeasy.net:
>
>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
>>> rw@speakeasy.net:
>>>
>>>
>>>>r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>>>>
>>>>>Hopefully this is correct now.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>TeGGeR®
>>>>>
>>>>>The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>>>>www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>>>>--------------------------------------
>>>>>I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>>>>>for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
>>>>>kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>>>>>hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>>>>>to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>>>>>igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>>>>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>>>>>"RPM".
>>>>>
>>>>>Terry
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the
>>>>time to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That is probably what the IC in the igniter does.(control PW.)
>>> The ECU merely provides the trigger at the proper time.
>>>
>> so where does it adjust pulse width - has to be on the front end,
>> right?
>> if it was on the rear, the timing would be off. or maybe the ecu
>> already knows what the igniter's timing characteristics are and
>> adjusts accordingly?...
>>
>>
>
>
> I think the ECU holds ground on Terminal 4 for the appropriate length
> of time, which keeps the igniter driving the coil until ground is
> removed. Once ground is removed from Pin 4, the IC switches off coil
> drive and the field collapses.

I do not believe this,as the IC inside the igniter monitors coil current.
>
> The ECU decides when to apply ground and break it based on the inputs
> of various sensors, such as the Crank Angle Sensor. It needs to know
> current RPM, cylinder position and crank angle.
>
> Terry is also indicating that the coil is allowed to charge for a
> longer time at high RPMs to ensure a fatter spark under harsher
> conditions.
>

Yes,coil current has to reach some preset point before the IC shuts off the
Darlington. That's the job of that IC.

The only way we will truly know for sure is to get a look at the IC's app
sheet,or scope the ECU signal to the igniter and see if it's pulse width
increases.If it does,then it controls the PW,not the IC.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns9674E85E11CCFtegger@207.14.113.17:

> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
> news:U4KdnVF_erM53DPfRVn-jw@speakeasy.net:
>
>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
>>> rw@speakeasy.net:
>>>
>>>
>>>>r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>>>>
>>>>>Hopefully this is correct now.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>TeGGeR®
>>>>>
>>>>>The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>>>>www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>>>>--------------------------------------
>>>>>I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>>>>>for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
>>>>>kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>>>>>hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>>>>>to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>>>>>igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>>>>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>>>>>"RPM".
>>>>>
>>>>>Terry
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the
>>>>time to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That is probably what the IC in the igniter does.(control PW.)
>>> The ECU merely provides the trigger at the proper time.
>>>
>> so where does it adjust pulse width - has to be on the front end,
>> right?
>> if it was on the rear, the timing would be off. or maybe the ecu
>> already knows what the igniter's timing characteristics are and
>> adjusts accordingly?...
>>
>>
>
>
> I think the ECU holds ground on Terminal 4 for the appropriate length
> of time, which keeps the igniter driving the coil until ground is
> removed. Once ground is removed from Pin 4, the IC switches off coil
> drive and the field collapses.

I do not believe this,as the IC inside the igniter monitors coil current.
>
> The ECU decides when to apply ground and break it based on the inputs
> of various sensors, such as the Crank Angle Sensor. It needs to know
> current RPM, cylinder position and crank angle.
>
> Terry is also indicating that the coil is allowed to charge for a
> longer time at high RPMs to ensure a fatter spark under harsher
> conditions.
>

Yes,coil current has to reach some preset point before the IC shuts off the
Darlington. That's the job of that IC.

The only way we will truly know for sure is to get a look at the IC's app
sheet,or scope the ECU signal to the igniter and see if it's pulse width
increases.If it does,then it controls the PW,not the IC.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in
news:Xns96755E000744Ejyanikkuanet@129.250.170.84:

> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
> news:Xns9674E85E11CCFtegger@207.14.113.17:
>
>> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
>> news:U4KdnVF_erM53DPfRVn-jw@speakeasy.net:
>>
>>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
>>>> rw@speakeasy.net:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hopefully this is correct now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>--
>>>>>>TeGGeR®
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>>>>>www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>>>>>--------------------------------------
>>>>>>I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>>>>>>for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
>>>>>>kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>>>>>>hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>>>>>>to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>>>>>>igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>>>>>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>>>>>>"RPM".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Terry
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the
>>>>>time to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That is probably what the IC in the igniter does.(control PW.)
>>>> The ECU merely provides the trigger at the proper time.
>>>>
>>> so where does it adjust pulse width - has to be on the front end,
>>> right?
>>> if it was on the rear, the timing would be off. or maybe the ecu
>>> already knows what the igniter's timing characteristics are and
>>> adjusts accordingly?...
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> I think the ECU holds ground on Terminal 4 for the appropriate length
>> of time, which keeps the igniter driving the coil until ground is
>> removed. Once ground is removed from Pin 4, the IC switches off coil
>> drive and the field collapses.
>
> I do not believe this,as the IC inside the igniter monitors coil
> current.


So I've read.



>>
>> The ECU decides when to apply ground and break it based on the inputs
>> of various sensors, such as the Crank Angle Sensor. It needs to know
>> current RPM, cylinder position and crank angle.
>>
>> Terry is also indicating that the coil is allowed to charge for a
>> longer time at high RPMs to ensure a fatter spark under harsher
>> conditions.
>>
>
> Yes,coil current has to reach some preset point before the IC shuts
> off the Darlington. That's the job of that IC.
>
> The only way we will truly know for sure is to get a look at the IC's
> app sheet,or scope the ECU signal to the igniter and see if it's pulse
> width increases.If it does,then it controls the PW,not the IC.
>


Terry seems to have determined that there is evidence of this.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in
news:Xns96755E000744Ejyanikkuanet@129.250.170.84:

> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
> news:Xns9674E85E11CCFtegger@207.14.113.17:
>
>> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
>> news:U4KdnVF_erM53DPfRVn-jw@speakeasy.net:
>>
>>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:o_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
>>>> rw@speakeasy.net:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hopefully this is correct now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>--
>>>>>>TeGGeR®
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>>>>>www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>>>>>--------------------------------------
>>>>>>I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>>>>>>for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
>>>>>>kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>>>>>>hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>>>>>>to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>>>>>>igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>>>>>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>>>>>>"RPM".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Terry
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the
>>>>>time to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That is probably what the IC in the igniter does.(control PW.)
>>>> The ECU merely provides the trigger at the proper time.
>>>>
>>> so where does it adjust pulse width - has to be on the front end,
>>> right?
>>> if it was on the rear, the timing would be off. or maybe the ecu
>>> already knows what the igniter's timing characteristics are and
>>> adjusts accordingly?...
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> I think the ECU holds ground on Terminal 4 for the appropriate length
>> of time, which keeps the igniter driving the coil until ground is
>> removed. Once ground is removed from Pin 4, the IC switches off coil
>> drive and the field collapses.
>
> I do not believe this,as the IC inside the igniter monitors coil
> current.


So I've read.



>>
>> The ECU decides when to apply ground and break it based on the inputs
>> of various sensors, such as the Crank Angle Sensor. It needs to know
>> current RPM, cylinder position and crank angle.
>>
>> Terry is also indicating that the coil is allowed to charge for a
>> longer time at high RPMs to ensure a fatter spark under harsher
>> conditions.
>>
>
> Yes,coil current has to reach some preset point before the IC shuts
> off the Darlington. That's the job of that IC.
>
> The only way we will truly know for sure is to get a look at the IC's
> app sheet,or scope the ECU signal to the igniter and see if it's pulse
> width increases.If it does,then it controls the PW,not the IC.
>


Terry seems to have determined that there is evidence of this.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

One more update:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html

This has been a most interesting thread, I must say.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

One more update:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html

This has been a most interesting thread, I must say.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

Jim Yanik wrote (in part):

Yes,coil current has to reach some preset point before the IC shuts off
the
Darlington. That's the job of that IC.

The only way we will truly know for sure is to get a look at the IC's
app
sheet,or scope the ECU signal to the igniter and see if it's pulse
width
increases.If it does,then it controls the PW,not the IC.

--
Jim Yanik
---------------------------

I have several "systems" pulled from cars to be crushed.
I rigged a 1990 ECM and sensors, with igniter to try
and figure out what was going on.

I am after a simple way to monitor the on time of the FIs.

I was kind of suprised to see the ignition pulse width
incrase with engine speed. I used a dual channel oscilloscope
and the output from the ECM stayed the same.

I experimented using a HP pulse generator to drive the igniter
by itself and found the same thing to be true. In my celica the PW
is directly controled by the ECM. I am asuming the IC monitors the
delta V, or rate of change and integrates the data to determine PW.

I will try to test my 1991 Civc this weekend. I have brought most of
the
ECM outputs and inputs via 1K isolation resistors to a breakout box
for testing.

I think it will be very usefull to measure on ratio of the FIs to
squeeze
every erg from the fuel for best MGP.

I can say that in many ways the ECM doesn't work the way I thought.
There are odd actions during the warm up period.

One important point is that it looks like Honda skimps on teh heat sink
compound. Of course the engine runs hotter then the igniter, so I am
not at all sure that adding more thermal coupling will help. I have
thought
of adding a "heat pipe" tp remove heat from the igniter. I now consider
the
igniter a subsystem that is doomed to failure. It simply operates too
hot
for prolonged life.

Having said that, a friend's 1990 Civic has ~200K and is still on the
original igniter. Somewhere I have a motorola "designing for long
life of Si devices"(something like that) that says that for every 3
degree
rise in temp over 20C, the life will be cut in half. But based on that
the
~90 degrees C engine temp the igniter ought to fail in the first 100
miles.
There are many things I just don't understand here.

But I now carry a spare ECM and igniter "just in case".

Terry

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

Jim Yanik wrote (in part):

Yes,coil current has to reach some preset point before the IC shuts off
the
Darlington. That's the job of that IC.

The only way we will truly know for sure is to get a look at the IC's
app
sheet,or scope the ECU signal to the igniter and see if it's pulse
width
increases.If it does,then it controls the PW,not the IC.

--
Jim Yanik
---------------------------

I have several "systems" pulled from cars to be crushed.
I rigged a 1990 ECM and sensors, with igniter to try
and figure out what was going on.

I am after a simple way to monitor the on time of the FIs.

I was kind of suprised to see the ignition pulse width
incrase with engine speed. I used a dual channel oscilloscope
and the output from the ECM stayed the same.

I experimented using a HP pulse generator to drive the igniter
by itself and found the same thing to be true. In my celica the PW
is directly controled by the ECM. I am asuming the IC monitors the
delta V, or rate of change and integrates the data to determine PW.

I will try to test my 1991 Civc this weekend. I have brought most of
the
ECM outputs and inputs via 1K isolation resistors to a breakout box
for testing.

I think it will be very usefull to measure on ratio of the FIs to
squeeze
every erg from the fuel for best MGP.

I can say that in many ways the ECM doesn't work the way I thought.
There are odd actions during the warm up period.

One important point is that it looks like Honda skimps on teh heat sink
compound. Of course the engine runs hotter then the igniter, so I am
not at all sure that adding more thermal coupling will help. I have
thought
of adding a "heat pipe" tp remove heat from the igniter. I now consider
the
igniter a subsystem that is doomed to failure. It simply operates too
hot
for prolonged life.

Having said that, a friend's 1990 Civic has ~200K and is still on the
original igniter. Somewhere I have a motorola "designing for long
life of Si devices"(something like that) that says that for every 3
degree
rise in temp over 20C, the life will be cut in half. But based on that
the
~90 degrees C engine temp the igniter ought to fail in the first 100
miles.
There are many things I just don't understand here.

But I now carry a spare ECM and igniter "just in case".

Terry

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote in
news:1118859696.926058.152280@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com:

> I now consider the igniter a subsystem that is doomed to failure. It
> simply operates too hot for prolonged life.
>
> Having said that, a friend's 1990 Civic has ~200K and is still on the
> original igniter.



My '91 Integra has 248K miles and the interior of the distributor is
entirely original, except for the rotor which I change every few years.


I wonder if maintenance might be a factor in igniter longevity the way it
is with coil longevity. Since the igniter is doing a lot of monitoring as
well as current carrying, might a large enough deviation from design spec
in ignition system characteristics overload the igniter?



--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote in
news:1118859696.926058.152280@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com:

> I now consider the igniter a subsystem that is doomed to failure. It
> simply operates too hot for prolonged life.
>
> Having said that, a friend's 1990 Civic has ~200K and is still on the
> original igniter.



My '91 Integra has 248K miles and the interior of the distributor is
entirely original, except for the rotor which I change every few years.


I wonder if maintenance might be a factor in igniter longevity the way it
is with coil longevity. Since the igniter is doing a lot of monitoring as
well as current carrying, might a large enough deviation from design spec
in ignition system characteristics overload the igniter?



--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns96769CB008B15tegger@207.14.113.17:

> r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote in
> news:1118859696.926058.152280@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com:
>
>> I now consider the igniter a subsystem that is doomed to failure. It
>> simply operates too hot for prolonged life.
>>
>> Having said that, a friend's 1990 Civic has ~200K and is still on the
>> original igniter.
>
>
>
> My '91 Integra has 248K miles and the interior of the distributor is
> entirely original, except for the rotor which I change every few
> years.
>
>
> I wonder if maintenance might be a factor in igniter longevity the way
> it is with coil longevity. Since the igniter is doing a lot of
> monitoring as well as current carrying, might a large enough deviation
> from design spec in ignition system characteristics overload the
> igniter?
>
>
>

It might be related to spark plug wire condition,and spark plug
condition;if your wires are breaking down,it would place a greater load on
the coil,and if the plugs were gummed up,slagged,or carboned,that would
affect the coil voltage.
IMO,igniters fail because of transients and migration of metals in the
Darlington and IC.

One could conceivably use an electron microscope and examine failed igniter
semiconductors and see why they failed,but it would be an expensive
undertaking,unless you're a college student with access to an e-
microscope,and doing a thesis or paper.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns96769CB008B15tegger@207.14.113.17:

> r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote in
> news:1118859696.926058.152280@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com:
>
>> I now consider the igniter a subsystem that is doomed to failure. It
>> simply operates too hot for prolonged life.
>>
>> Having said that, a friend's 1990 Civic has ~200K and is still on the
>> original igniter.
>
>
>
> My '91 Integra has 248K miles and the interior of the distributor is
> entirely original, except for the rotor which I change every few
> years.
>
>
> I wonder if maintenance might be a factor in igniter longevity the way
> it is with coil longevity. Since the igniter is doing a lot of
> monitoring as well as current carrying, might a large enough deviation
> from design spec in ignition system characteristics overload the
> igniter?
>
>
>

It might be related to spark plug wire condition,and spark plug
condition;if your wires are breaking down,it would place a greater load on
the coil,and if the plugs were gummed up,slagged,or carboned,that would
affect the coil voltage.
IMO,igniters fail because of transients and migration of metals in the
Darlington and IC.

One could conceivably use an electron microscope and examine failed igniter
semiconductors and see why they failed,but it would be an expensive
undertaking,unless you're a college student with access to an e-
microscope,and doing a thesis or paper.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
> Jim Yanik wrote (in part):
>
> Yes,coil current has to reach some preset point before the IC shuts off
> the
> Darlington. That's the job of that IC.
>
> The only way we will truly know for sure is to get a look at the IC's
> app
> sheet,or scope the ECU signal to the igniter and see if it's pulse
> width
> increases.If it does,then it controls the PW,not the IC.
>
> --
> Jim Yanik
> ---------------------------
>
> I have several "systems" pulled from cars to be crushed.
> I rigged a 1990 ECM and sensors, with igniter to try
> and figure out what was going on.
>
> I am after a simple way to monitor the on time of the FIs.
>
> I was kind of suprised to see the ignition pulse width
> incrase with engine speed. I used a dual channel oscilloscope
> and the output from the ECM stayed the same.
>
> I experimented using a HP pulse generator to drive the igniter
> by itself and found the same thing to be true. In my celica the PW
> is directly controled by the ECM. I am asuming the IC monitors the
> delta V, or rate of change and integrates the data to determine PW.
>
> I will try to test my 1991 Civc this weekend. I have brought most of
> the
> ECM outputs and inputs via 1K isolation resistors to a breakout box
> for testing.

that would be most excellent!

>
> I think it will be very usefull to measure on ratio of the FIs to
> squeeze
> every erg from the fuel for best MGP.
>
> I can say that in many ways the ECM doesn't work the way I thought.
> There are odd actions during the warm up period.
>
> One important point is that it looks like Honda skimps on teh heat sink
> compound. Of course the engine runs hotter then the igniter, so I am
> not at all sure that adding more thermal coupling will help. I have
> thought
> of adding a "heat pipe" tp remove heat from the igniter. I now consider
> the
> igniter a subsystem that is doomed to failure. It simply operates too
> hot
> for prolonged life.
>
> Having said that, a friend's 1990 Civic has ~200K and is still on the
> original igniter. Somewhere I have a motorola "designing for long
> life of Si devices"(something like that) that says that for every 3
> degree
> rise in temp over 20C, the life will be cut in half. But based on that
> the
> ~90 degrees C engine temp the igniter ought to fail in the first 100
> miles.
> There are many things I just don't understand here.
>
> But I now carry a spare ECM and igniter "just in case".
>
> Terry
>

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
> Jim Yanik wrote (in part):
>
> Yes,coil current has to reach some preset point before the IC shuts off
> the
> Darlington. That's the job of that IC.
>
> The only way we will truly know for sure is to get a look at the IC's
> app
> sheet,or scope the ECU signal to the igniter and see if it's pulse
> width
> increases.If it does,then it controls the PW,not the IC.
>
> --
> Jim Yanik
> ---------------------------
>
> I have several "systems" pulled from cars to be crushed.
> I rigged a 1990 ECM and sensors, with igniter to try
> and figure out what was going on.
>
> I am after a simple way to monitor the on time of the FIs.
>
> I was kind of suprised to see the ignition pulse width
> incrase with engine speed. I used a dual channel oscilloscope
> and the output from the ECM stayed the same.
>
> I experimented using a HP pulse generator to drive the igniter
> by itself and found the same thing to be true. In my celica the PW
> is directly controled by the ECM. I am asuming the IC monitors the
> delta V, or rate of change and integrates the data to determine PW.
>
> I will try to test my 1991 Civc this weekend. I have brought most of
> the
> ECM outputs and inputs via 1K isolation resistors to a breakout box
> for testing.

that would be most excellent!

>
> I think it will be very usefull to measure on ratio of the FIs to
> squeeze
> every erg from the fuel for best MGP.
>
> I can say that in many ways the ECM doesn't work the way I thought.
> There are odd actions during the warm up period.
>
> One important point is that it looks like Honda skimps on teh heat sink
> compound. Of course the engine runs hotter then the igniter, so I am
> not at all sure that adding more thermal coupling will help. I have
> thought
> of adding a "heat pipe" tp remove heat from the igniter. I now consider
> the
> igniter a subsystem that is doomed to failure. It simply operates too
> hot
> for prolonged life.
>
> Having said that, a friend's 1990 Civic has ~200K and is still on the
> original igniter. Somewhere I have a motorola "designing for long
> life of Si devices"(something like that) that says that for every 3
> degree
> rise in temp over 20C, the life will be cut in half. But based on that
> the
> ~90 degrees C engine temp the igniter ought to fail in the first 100
> miles.
> There are many things I just don't understand here.
>
> But I now carry a spare ECM and igniter "just in case".
>
> Terry
>

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

Jim Yanik wrote:
> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
> news:Xns96769CB008B15tegger@207.14.113.17:
>
>
>>r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote in
>>news:1118859696.926058.152280@z14g2000cwz.google groups.com:
>>
>>
>>>I now consider the igniter a subsystem that is doomed to failure. It
>>>simply operates too hot for prolonged life.
>>>
>>>Having said that, a friend's 1990 Civic has ~200K and is still on the
>>>original igniter.
>>
>>
>>
>>My '91 Integra has 248K miles and the interior of the distributor is
>>entirely original, except for the rotor which I change every few
>>years.
>>
>>
>>I wonder if maintenance might be a factor in igniter longevity the way
>>it is with coil longevity. Since the igniter is doing a lot of
>>monitoring as well as current carrying, might a large enough deviation
>>from design spec in ignition system characteristics overload the
>>igniter?
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> It might be related to spark plug wire condition,and spark plug
> condition;if your wires are breaking down,it would place a greater load on
> the coil,and if the plugs were gummed up,slagged,or carboned,that would
> affect the coil voltage.
> IMO,igniters fail because of transients and migration of metals in the
> Darlington and IC.

there are two "migration" mechanisms - first is solid state diffusion.
that's where the bit about the life halving every 3 degrees comes in.

the other is a mass transportation effect at high current densities.

unfortunately, high current leads to heat, and semi conductors have high
current densities, so the only real way to know for sure about the
failure mechanism, as you say, is microscopy.

>
> One could conceivably use an electron microscope and examine failed igniter
> semiconductors and see why they failed,but it would be an expensive
> undertaking,unless you're a college student with access to an e-
> microscope,and doing a thesis or paper.
>
of the two igniter types tegger shows, the second is designed more for a
high temperature environment from what i can see. the small scale
circuitry in the components of the first igniter have much smaller
diffusion paths. the larger scale thick film device has, for
semiconductors at any rate, truly massive scale features. these are bad
for speed, but even at 10,000 rpm, that's only 166Hz, not exactly a high
frequency challenge.

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

Jim Yanik wrote:
> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
> news:Xns96769CB008B15tegger@207.14.113.17:
>
>
>>r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote in
>>news:1118859696.926058.152280@z14g2000cwz.google groups.com:
>>
>>
>>>I now consider the igniter a subsystem that is doomed to failure. It
>>>simply operates too hot for prolonged life.
>>>
>>>Having said that, a friend's 1990 Civic has ~200K and is still on the
>>>original igniter.
>>
>>
>>
>>My '91 Integra has 248K miles and the interior of the distributor is
>>entirely original, except for the rotor which I change every few
>>years.
>>
>>
>>I wonder if maintenance might be a factor in igniter longevity the way
>>it is with coil longevity. Since the igniter is doing a lot of
>>monitoring as well as current carrying, might a large enough deviation
>>from design spec in ignition system characteristics overload the
>>igniter?
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> It might be related to spark plug wire condition,and spark plug
> condition;if your wires are breaking down,it would place a greater load on
> the coil,and if the plugs were gummed up,slagged,or carboned,that would
> affect the coil voltage.
> IMO,igniters fail because of transients and migration of metals in the
> Darlington and IC.

there are two "migration" mechanisms - first is solid state diffusion.
that's where the bit about the life halving every 3 degrees comes in.

the other is a mass transportation effect at high current densities.

unfortunately, high current leads to heat, and semi conductors have high
current densities, so the only real way to know for sure about the
failure mechanism, as you say, is microscopy.

>
> One could conceivably use an electron microscope and examine failed igniter
> semiconductors and see why they failed,but it would be an expensive
> undertaking,unless you're a college student with access to an e-
> microscope,and doing a thesis or paper.
>
of the two igniter types tegger shows, the second is designed more for a
high temperature environment from what i can see. the small scale
circuitry in the components of the first igniter have much smaller
diffusion paths. the larger scale thick film device has, for
semiconductors at any rate, truly massive scale features. these are bad
for speed, but even at 10,000 rpm, that's only 166Hz, not exactly a high
frequency challenge.

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

<r2000swler@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1118859696.926058.152280@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com...
> One important point is that it looks like Honda skimps on teh heat sink
> compound. Of course the engine runs hotter then the igniter, so I am
> not at all sure that adding more thermal coupling will help. I have
> thought
> of adding a "heat pipe" tp remove heat from the igniter. I now consider
> the
> igniter a subsystem that is doomed to failure. It simply operates too
> hot
> for prolonged life.
>

I don't think the heat is too great for the ignitor. There apparently aren't
any electrolytic capacitors in it, and those are the big heat sensitive
worries.

The vulnerability of transistors to heat is related to junction temperature
and to collector voltage. When the collector junction gets hot enough, the
reverse voltage across it can make the dopants migrate and "blur" the
junction. That spot gets hotter and eventually melts, leading to the device
being shorted.

But the heat required to melt the junction without the voltage stress is
much higher than your engine compartment - the melting point of silicon is
over 2500 degrees F. The silicon chips are typically soldered to the heat
sink internally, and I have personally soldered a UHF power transistor to a
large copper heatsink with an acetylene torch.

Mike

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

<r2000swler@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1118859696.926058.152280@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com...
> One important point is that it looks like Honda skimps on teh heat sink
> compound. Of course the engine runs hotter then the igniter, so I am
> not at all sure that adding more thermal coupling will help. I have
> thought
> of adding a "heat pipe" tp remove heat from the igniter. I now consider
> the
> igniter a subsystem that is doomed to failure. It simply operates too
> hot
> for prolonged life.
>

I don't think the heat is too great for the ignitor. There apparently aren't
any electrolytic capacitors in it, and those are the big heat sensitive
worries.

The vulnerability of transistors to heat is related to junction temperature
and to collector voltage. When the collector junction gets hot enough, the
reverse voltage across it can make the dopants migrate and "blur" the
junction. That spot gets hotter and eventually melts, leading to the device
being shorted.

But the heat required to melt the junction without the voltage stress is
much higher than your engine compartment - the melting point of silicon is
over 2500 degrees F. The silicon chips are typically soldered to the heat
sink internally, and I have personally soldered a UHF power transistor to a
large copper heatsink with an acetylene torch.

Mike

Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections
 

Michael Pardee wrote:

I don't think the heat is too great for the ignitor. There apparently
aren't
any electrolytic capacitors in it, and those are the big heat sensitive
worries.

The vulnerability of transistors to heat is related to junction
temperature
and to collector voltage. When the collector junction gets hot enough,
the
reverse voltage across it can make the dopants migrate and "blur" the
junction. That spot gets hotter and eventually melts, leading to the
device
being shorted.

But the heat required to melt the junction without the voltage stress
is
much higher than your engine compartment - the melting point of silicon
is
over 2500 degrees F. The silicon chips are typically soldered to the
heat
sink internally, and I have personally soldered a UHF power transistor
to a
large copper heatsink with an acetylene torch.

Mike
--------------------------------------
Yes, but you didn't put power to it until after it cooled down, and I
bet you moved a lot of air across that heatsink to keep it cool. In
service the
transisotr is switching at least 5A. I have the exact value in my
notes,
and yes it is a fast switch, the transistor is driven completly and
rapidly into full conduction so the Vec is about .5V for ~2mS every few
10s of aMsec.
Not a haeavy duty cydle by any means, but it runs, with "perfect"
heatsinking
to the block at ~195F. Those I measured actualy ran about 210~220F.

Somewhere I have the leakage versus temp from motorola and at +200F
we are getting too darn hot. I saw a Ducati pointless ignition system
that
used a flip flop to switch between 2 transitor to cut the Pd in half.
But
that system was expossed directly to the airstream. Of the people
I know who have had igniter failurs, Honda or Toyota, it has always
been in >90F weather, most frequently in stop and go traffic on the way
home.
Except for one that failed in ~-25F weather on startup. I can't prove
it, but I suspect if we could reduce the temp 20 or even 10 degrees F,
the failure rate would drop "way down". Another failure mode that is
only slightly heat related is the piezo effect on the junction when it
switches.
I had a early JBL switch mode power amp that ate switching transistors
at fairly regular intervals. I had built, and still have, a ultrasonic
down
converter and you could plainly hear the transitors screaming at 40KHz.
I supsect that heat, plus current stress, plus the piezo effect could
explain
most igniter failures. One could always attempt to place it remotly, in
front
of the radiator to breath cool air, but I suspect the lead inductanc
would
kill you and the RFI would be "interesting".

When I needed to align my R2000 SW I needed an "ignition like"
noise source "with harmonics extending up too beyond 30MHz"
I pulled my 1991 Civic under my "long" wire antenna, and adjusted
the noise blanker. Worked much better then the puilse generator
at the shop where I work.

Terry