Re: update on emergency brake warning light
 

Elle wrote:
>
> "the loner" <theloner@nowhere.com> wrote
> > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
> >> "the loner" <theloner@nowhere.com> wrote
> >> about an 89 Civic DX sedan
> >>> "the loner" <theloner@nowhere.com> wrote
> >>>> Wento to go to mechanics this morning, car wouldn't
> >>>> start, like the way a dead battery sounds. I kept
> >>>> trying, it finally started Plus that brake warning
> >>>> light was no longer on!!!
> >>>> Took it to mechanic anyway---so far he's thinking
> >>>> alternator. So I left the car there, and we'll see what
> >>>> happens tomorrow. I'll let you all know
> >>>> loner
> >>>
> >>> BTW, in general, are alternators really expensive? I
> >>> mean the part itself--labor is always expensive!
> >>
> >> You can get a price on the alternator (possibly rebuilt)
> >> at places like www.slhonda.com and
> >> www.hondaautomotiveparts.com . Like Curly said, if if the
> >> source of the problem is the alternator, most likely it's
> >> just the brushes being too old and worn.
> >>
> >> Here's some info on the subject:
> >> http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id13.html
> >>
> >> How old are your alternator and battery, anyway?
> >>
> >> If the brushes have never been replaced, the probability
> >> is good it is they.
> >
> > Hi again Elle. thenks for the links. The battery is about
> > 1 1/2 yrs old,
>
> Done any jumpstarts on it? My site talks about how this will
> significantly reduce a battery's life.
>
> But it's more likely the alternator's brushes can no longer
> keep the battery charged.
>
> > the alternator has brobably never been replaced. I looked
> > through my old invoices & couldn't find anyting, but as I
> > said, there's only 62,000 miles on it, so probably the
> > brushes haven't been replaced
> > I'll call them tomorrow am and ask about all this. If they
> > do say I need a new Alternator, do you think that's a rip
> > off?
>
> No, not necessarily. ISTM the labor it takes to do just the
> brushes can approach the total cost of replacing the whole
> alternator.
>
> Other parts go bad on alternators, just not as often.
>
> ISTM a car kept 20 years should need at least one alternator
> replacement in the course of those 20 years.
>
> If one is a do-it-yourselfer and has the time, then doing
> just the brushes makes sense. This is not so for someone who
> doesn't work much on cars and wants a repair that will (1)
> last; (2) not lead to throwing good money after bad.
>
> This is my rough impression, based on only one personal
> alternator experience, a little exploration on brushes, and
> a lot of reading. I am really not sure how often independent
> shops are willing to do 'just the brushes.' Look for others'
> thoughts on this. Tegger, Socalmike, Michael Pardee, JT,
> Curly (among other regulars)?
>


Personally, I've generally opted for a rebuilt alternator (with a decent
warranty) as bearings, diodes etc. become a factor after a significant
period of time. Besides, I tend to be lazy at times...

JT

Re: update on emergency brake warning light
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns97E2701CCCD1tegger@207.14.116.130...
> "the loner" <theloner@nowhere.com> wrote in
> news:sM6dnVjd5_4REBLZnZ2dnUVZ_oydnZ2d@comcast.com:
>
>>
>
>> Hi Tegger--the only thing I know so far is that there is nothing wrong
>> with the brake system (fluid, switch, wiring etc). When i tried to
>> start it this morning, it wouldn't--it felt & sounded like a dead
>> battery, even though my battery is 1 1/2 yrs old. After about the 7th
>> try, it started. Coincidently or not, my battery died last week, but I
>> had left the lights on for about 20 minutes & even then I didn't think
>> the battery would run down after such a short period. I got a jump &
>> it was fine until this past weekend-that's when the brake warning
>> light came on,
>>
>> What are other symptoms of a bad alternator?
>
>
>
> Under or overcharging, mostly.
> http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/carfaq5.htm#voltage
>
> Your guy ought to know how to test the battery and charging system. It's
> SOP for any good garage.
>
> How did you check the brake light circuit? Did you try unplugging the
> wiring at the master cylinder cap?
>
> --
> TeGGeR®
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

To be honest, I'm very intiminated because of my lack of car knowledge, so I
didn't do anything myself. The emerg.brake light warning was the initial
problem, but today the brake warning light did not go on. Instead, I just
couldn't get the engine to turn over-sounded like a dead battery, but I knew
that couldn't be it-it's new
I don't know if the brake switch was checked--it seems that because it took
7 tries to get it started, the brake warning light may have just been a
symptom of something else, so they turned their attention to the starting
problem. I'm sure they'll check the things you mentioned--those things
weren't checked today because they ran out of time, so I left the car there
to be worked on tomorrow.
I am making a list of all things you all have mentioned so I can
specifically ask them about each one. I do trust them, even though I just
recently moved up here in the Sierras,but they seem up front & reasonable
Next update tomorrow! Thanks!
loner

Re: update on emergency brake warning light
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns97E2701CCCD1tegger@207.14.116.130...
> "the loner" <theloner@nowhere.com> wrote in
> news:sM6dnVjd5_4REBLZnZ2dnUVZ_oydnZ2d@comcast.com:
>
>>
>
>> Hi Tegger--the only thing I know so far is that there is nothing wrong
>> with the brake system (fluid, switch, wiring etc). When i tried to
>> start it this morning, it wouldn't--it felt & sounded like a dead
>> battery, even though my battery is 1 1/2 yrs old. After about the 7th
>> try, it started. Coincidently or not, my battery died last week, but I
>> had left the lights on for about 20 minutes & even then I didn't think
>> the battery would run down after such a short period. I got a jump &
>> it was fine until this past weekend-that's when the brake warning
>> light came on,
>>
>> What are other symptoms of a bad alternator?
>
>
>
> Under or overcharging, mostly.
> http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/carfaq5.htm#voltage
>
> Your guy ought to know how to test the battery and charging system. It's
> SOP for any good garage.
>
> How did you check the brake light circuit? Did you try unplugging the
> wiring at the master cylinder cap?
>
> --
> TeGGeR®
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

To be honest, I'm very intiminated because of my lack of car knowledge, so I
didn't do anything myself. The emerg.brake light warning was the initial
problem, but today the brake warning light did not go on. Instead, I just
couldn't get the engine to turn over-sounded like a dead battery, but I knew
that couldn't be it-it's new
I don't know if the brake switch was checked--it seems that because it took
7 tries to get it started, the brake warning light may have just been a
symptom of something else, so they turned their attention to the starting
problem. I'm sure they'll check the things you mentioned--those things
weren't checked today because they ran out of time, so I left the car there
to be worked on tomorrow.
I am making a list of all things you all have mentioned so I can
specifically ask them about each one. I do trust them, even though I just
recently moved up here in the Sierras,but they seem up front & reasonable
Next update tomorrow! Thanks!
loner

Re: update on emergency brake warning light
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns97E2701CCCD1tegger@207.14.116.130...
> "the loner" <theloner@nowhere.com> wrote in
> news:sM6dnVjd5_4REBLZnZ2dnUVZ_oydnZ2d@comcast.com:
>
>>
>
>> Hi Tegger--the only thing I know so far is that there is nothing wrong
>> with the brake system (fluid, switch, wiring etc). When i tried to
>> start it this morning, it wouldn't--it felt & sounded like a dead
>> battery, even though my battery is 1 1/2 yrs old. After about the 7th
>> try, it started. Coincidently or not, my battery died last week, but I
>> had left the lights on for about 20 minutes & even then I didn't think
>> the battery would run down after such a short period. I got a jump &
>> it was fine until this past weekend-that's when the brake warning
>> light came on,
>>
>> What are other symptoms of a bad alternator?
>
>
>
> Under or overcharging, mostly.
> http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/carfaq5.htm#voltage
>
> Your guy ought to know how to test the battery and charging system. It's
> SOP for any good garage.
>
> How did you check the brake light circuit? Did you try unplugging the
> wiring at the master cylinder cap?
>
> --
> TeGGeR®
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

To be honest, I'm very intiminated because of my lack of car knowledge, so I
didn't do anything myself. The emerg.brake light warning was the initial
problem, but today the brake warning light did not go on. Instead, I just
couldn't get the engine to turn over-sounded like a dead battery, but I knew
that couldn't be it-it's new
I don't know if the brake switch was checked--it seems that because it took
7 tries to get it started, the brake warning light may have just been a
symptom of something else, so they turned their attention to the starting
problem. I'm sure they'll check the things you mentioned--those things
weren't checked today because they ran out of time, so I left the car there
to be worked on tomorrow.
I am making a list of all things you all have mentioned so I can
specifically ask them about each one. I do trust them, even though I just
recently moved up here in the Sierras,but they seem up front & reasonable
Next update tomorrow! Thanks!
loner

Re: update on emergency brake warning light
 

>
> No, not necessarily. ISTM the labor it takes to do just the brushes can
> approach the total cost of replacing the whole alternator.
>
> Other parts go bad on alternators, just not as often.
>
> ISTM a car kept 20 years should need at least one alternator replacement
> in the course of those 20 years.
>
> If one is a do-it-yourselfer and has the time, then doing just the brushes
> makes sense. This is not so for someone who doesn't work much on cars and
> wants a repair that will (1) last; (2) not lead to throwing good money
> after bad.
>
> This is my rough impression, based on only one personal alternator
> experience, a little exploration on brushes, and a lot of reading. I am
> really not sure how often independent shops are willing to do 'just the
> brushes.' Look for others' thoughts on this. Tegger, Socalmike, Michael
> Pardee, JT, Curly (among other regulars)?
>
I tried brushes once on my POV; lasted 6 months,
Just replace the alt (If needed)


--
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
ASE Undercar Specialist

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troub...l_obd_main.htm
http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/
http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm

Re: update on emergency brake warning light
 

>
> No, not necessarily. ISTM the labor it takes to do just the brushes can
> approach the total cost of replacing the whole alternator.
>
> Other parts go bad on alternators, just not as often.
>
> ISTM a car kept 20 years should need at least one alternator replacement
> in the course of those 20 years.
>
> If one is a do-it-yourselfer and has the time, then doing just the brushes
> makes sense. This is not so for someone who doesn't work much on cars and
> wants a repair that will (1) last; (2) not lead to throwing good money
> after bad.
>
> This is my rough impression, based on only one personal alternator
> experience, a little exploration on brushes, and a lot of reading. I am
> really not sure how often independent shops are willing to do 'just the
> brushes.' Look for others' thoughts on this. Tegger, Socalmike, Michael
> Pardee, JT, Curly (among other regulars)?
>
I tried brushes once on my POV; lasted 6 months,
Just replace the alt (If needed)


--
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
ASE Undercar Specialist

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troub...l_obd_main.htm
http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/
http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm

Re: update on emergency brake warning light
 

>
> No, not necessarily. ISTM the labor it takes to do just the brushes can
> approach the total cost of replacing the whole alternator.
>
> Other parts go bad on alternators, just not as often.
>
> ISTM a car kept 20 years should need at least one alternator replacement
> in the course of those 20 years.
>
> If one is a do-it-yourselfer and has the time, then doing just the brushes
> makes sense. This is not so for someone who doesn't work much on cars and
> wants a repair that will (1) last; (2) not lead to throwing good money
> after bad.
>
> This is my rough impression, based on only one personal alternator
> experience, a little exploration on brushes, and a lot of reading. I am
> really not sure how often independent shops are willing to do 'just the
> brushes.' Look for others' thoughts on this. Tegger, Socalmike, Michael
> Pardee, JT, Curly (among other regulars)?
>
I tried brushes once on my POV; lasted 6 months,
Just replace the alt (If needed)


--
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
ASE Undercar Specialist

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troub...l_obd_main.htm
http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/
http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm

Re: update on emergency brake warning light
 

Elle wrote:

>>the alternator has brobably never been replaced. I looked
>>through my old invoices & couldn't find anyting, but as I
>>said, there's only 62,000 miles on it, so probably the
>>brushes haven't been replaced
>>I'll call them tomorrow am and ask about all this. If they
>>do say I need a new Alternator, do you think that's a rip
>>off?
>
>
> No, not necessarily. ISTM the labor it takes to do just the
> brushes can approach the total cost of replacing the whole
> alternator.

How do you figure? Labor to re&re the alternator either is the same
either way... new brushes are about $5 and should take about 15 minutes
to swap in... and on some cars, a nimble mechanic could change the
brushes without needing to fully remove the alternator (like my '87
Accord where actually removing the thing from the car requires a degree
in acrobatics).

> Other parts go bad on alternators, just not as often.

Going again from my '87, the voltage regulator module has to come out to
replace the brushes, and removing the diode pack takes three nuts, four
bolts, and 30 seconds more. Total time to actually replace everything
but the windings shouldn't exceed 30 minutes. What's the cost of new
regulator, brushes and diodes, vs. a complete new alternator? It's
GOTTA be more than the value half an hour's labor.

And again, with the '87 Accord, all this CAN be done without actually
removing the alt from the car.

Re: update on emergency brake warning light
 

Elle wrote:

>>the alternator has brobably never been replaced. I looked
>>through my old invoices & couldn't find anyting, but as I
>>said, there's only 62,000 miles on it, so probably the
>>brushes haven't been replaced
>>I'll call them tomorrow am and ask about all this. If they
>>do say I need a new Alternator, do you think that's a rip
>>off?
>
>
> No, not necessarily. ISTM the labor it takes to do just the
> brushes can approach the total cost of replacing the whole
> alternator.

How do you figure? Labor to re&re the alternator either is the same
either way... new brushes are about $5 and should take about 15 minutes
to swap in... and on some cars, a nimble mechanic could change the
brushes without needing to fully remove the alternator (like my '87
Accord where actually removing the thing from the car requires a degree
in acrobatics).

> Other parts go bad on alternators, just not as often.

Going again from my '87, the voltage regulator module has to come out to
replace the brushes, and removing the diode pack takes three nuts, four
bolts, and 30 seconds more. Total time to actually replace everything
but the windings shouldn't exceed 30 minutes. What's the cost of new
regulator, brushes and diodes, vs. a complete new alternator? It's
GOTTA be more than the value half an hour's labor.

And again, with the '87 Accord, all this CAN be done without actually
removing the alt from the car.

Re: update on emergency brake warning light
 

Elle wrote:

>>the alternator has brobably never been replaced. I looked
>>through my old invoices & couldn't find anyting, but as I
>>said, there's only 62,000 miles on it, so probably the
>>brushes haven't been replaced
>>I'll call them tomorrow am and ask about all this. If they
>>do say I need a new Alternator, do you think that's a rip
>>off?
>
>
> No, not necessarily. ISTM the labor it takes to do just the
> brushes can approach the total cost of replacing the whole
> alternator.

How do you figure? Labor to re&re the alternator either is the same
either way... new brushes are about $5 and should take about 15 minutes
to swap in... and on some cars, a nimble mechanic could change the
brushes without needing to fully remove the alternator (like my '87
Accord where actually removing the thing from the car requires a degree
in acrobatics).

> Other parts go bad on alternators, just not as often.

Going again from my '87, the voltage regulator module has to come out to
replace the brushes, and removing the diode pack takes three nuts, four
bolts, and 30 seconds more. Total time to actually replace everything
but the windings shouldn't exceed 30 minutes. What's the cost of new
regulator, brushes and diodes, vs. a complete new alternator? It's
GOTTA be more than the value half an hour's labor.

And again, with the '87 Accord, all this CAN be done without actually
removing the alt from the car.

Re: update on emergency brake warning light
 

"Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote
> Elle wrote:
>
>>>the alternator has brobably never been replaced. I looked
>>>through my old invoices & couldn't find anyting, but as I
>>>said, there's only 62,000 miles on it, so probably the
>>>brushes haven't been replaced
>>>I'll call them tomorrow am and ask about all this. If
>>>they do say I need a new Alternator, do you think that's
>>>a rip off?
>>
>>
>> No, not necessarily. ISTM the labor it takes to do just
>> the brushes can approach the total cost of replacing the
>> whole alternator.
>
> How do you figure? Labor to re&re the alternator either
> is the same either way... new brushes are about $5 and
> should take about 15 minutes to swap in...

I was thinking (1) the dealership for one will charge the
book rate, which may assume the alternator has to be pulled
off to replace the brushes; and (2) from reading here, not
all brushes can be replaced with the alternator in place.

I agree this will vary from model to model and maybe one
year to another year.

Hence I wrote "can approach... " Also, it's only an
impression based on not a whole lot of data. We don't see
too many reports here of folks who just replace the brushes
and then six months later see, say, an alternator bearing
failure.

Then also if it's /not/ the brushes that are bad, the
technician faces a comeback, and the customer faces an
inconvenience and possibly more money spent than just
slapping a remanufactured alternator in place.

The brush assemblies go for about $19 (not counting
shipping) at places like slhonda.com .

Re: update on emergency brake warning light
 

"Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote
> Elle wrote:
>
>>>the alternator has brobably never been replaced. I looked
>>>through my old invoices & couldn't find anyting, but as I
>>>said, there's only 62,000 miles on it, so probably the
>>>brushes haven't been replaced
>>>I'll call them tomorrow am and ask about all this. If
>>>they do say I need a new Alternator, do you think that's
>>>a rip off?
>>
>>
>> No, not necessarily. ISTM the labor it takes to do just
>> the brushes can approach the total cost of replacing the
>> whole alternator.
>
> How do you figure? Labor to re&re the alternator either
> is the same either way... new brushes are about $5 and
> should take about 15 minutes to swap in...

I was thinking (1) the dealership for one will charge the
book rate, which may assume the alternator has to be pulled
off to replace the brushes; and (2) from reading here, not
all brushes can be replaced with the alternator in place.

I agree this will vary from model to model and maybe one
year to another year.

Hence I wrote "can approach... " Also, it's only an
impression based on not a whole lot of data. We don't see
too many reports here of folks who just replace the brushes
and then six months later see, say, an alternator bearing
failure.

Then also if it's /not/ the brushes that are bad, the
technician faces a comeback, and the customer faces an
inconvenience and possibly more money spent than just
slapping a remanufactured alternator in place.

The brush assemblies go for about $19 (not counting
shipping) at places like slhonda.com .

Re: update on emergency brake warning light
 

"Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote
> Elle wrote:
>
>>>the alternator has brobably never been replaced. I looked
>>>through my old invoices & couldn't find anyting, but as I
>>>said, there's only 62,000 miles on it, so probably the
>>>brushes haven't been replaced
>>>I'll call them tomorrow am and ask about all this. If
>>>they do say I need a new Alternator, do you think that's
>>>a rip off?
>>
>>
>> No, not necessarily. ISTM the labor it takes to do just
>> the brushes can approach the total cost of replacing the
>> whole alternator.
>
> How do you figure? Labor to re&re the alternator either
> is the same either way... new brushes are about $5 and
> should take about 15 minutes to swap in...

I was thinking (1) the dealership for one will charge the
book rate, which may assume the alternator has to be pulled
off to replace the brushes; and (2) from reading here, not
all brushes can be replaced with the alternator in place.

I agree this will vary from model to model and maybe one
year to another year.

Hence I wrote "can approach... " Also, it's only an
impression based on not a whole lot of data. We don't see
too many reports here of folks who just replace the brushes
and then six months later see, say, an alternator bearing
failure.

Then also if it's /not/ the brushes that are bad, the
technician faces a comeback, and the customer faces an
inconvenience and possibly more money spent than just
slapping a remanufactured alternator in place.

The brush assemblies go for about $19 (not counting
shipping) at places like slhonda.com .

Re: update on emergency brake warning light
 

"Stephen H" <hansensw@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:2t6kg.27208$mF2.13106@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

>
>>
>> No, not necessarily. ISTM the labor it takes to do just the brushes
>> can approach the total cost of replacing the whole alternator.
>>
>> Other parts go bad on alternators, just not as often.
>>
>> ISTM a car kept 20 years should need at least one alternator
>> replacement in the course of those 20 years.
>>
>> If one is a do-it-yourselfer and has the time, then doing just the
>> brushes makes sense. This is not so for someone who doesn't work much
>> on cars and wants a repair that will (1) last; (2) not lead to
>> throwing good money after bad.
>>
>> This is my rough impression, based on only one personal alternator
>> experience, a little exploration on brushes, and a lot of reading. I
>> am really not sure how often independent shops are willing to do
>> 'just the brushes.' Look for others' thoughts on this. Tegger,
>> Socalmike, Michael Pardee, JT, Curly (among other regulars)?
>>
> I tried brushes once on my POV; lasted 6 months,



I replaced my brushes too. I even did it by unsoldering the old ones from
the holder and soldering in new ones from a local rebuilders ($5). At the
time I didn't know you could just buy a whole new brush holder from the
dealer.

My soldering skills aren't great, but the new brushes lasted three years,
and would surely have gone a lot longer, except the stator finally rusted
to the commutator and locked the alternator up. 14 years of Canadian
winters will do that...

Ain't nothin' wrong with replacing the brushes on an ND alternator. Their
bearings last nearly forever if the belt is properly tightened, and the
electrics last similarly if the alt has not been abused.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: update on emergency brake warning light
 

"Stephen H" <hansensw@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:2t6kg.27208$mF2.13106@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

>
>>
>> No, not necessarily. ISTM the labor it takes to do just the brushes
>> can approach the total cost of replacing the whole alternator.
>>
>> Other parts go bad on alternators, just not as often.
>>
>> ISTM a car kept 20 years should need at least one alternator
>> replacement in the course of those 20 years.
>>
>> If one is a do-it-yourselfer and has the time, then doing just the
>> brushes makes sense. This is not so for someone who doesn't work much
>> on cars and wants a repair that will (1) last; (2) not lead to
>> throwing good money after bad.
>>
>> This is my rough impression, based on only one personal alternator
>> experience, a little exploration on brushes, and a lot of reading. I
>> am really not sure how often independent shops are willing to do
>> 'just the brushes.' Look for others' thoughts on this. Tegger,
>> Socalmike, Michael Pardee, JT, Curly (among other regulars)?
>>
> I tried brushes once on my POV; lasted 6 months,



I replaced my brushes too. I even did it by unsoldering the old ones from
the holder and soldering in new ones from a local rebuilders ($5). At the
time I didn't know you could just buy a whole new brush holder from the
dealer.

My soldering skills aren't great, but the new brushes lasted three years,
and would surely have gone a lot longer, except the stator finally rusted
to the commutator and locked the alternator up. 14 years of Canadian
winters will do that...

Ain't nothin' wrong with replacing the brushes on an ND alternator. Their
bearings last nearly forever if the belt is properly tightened, and the
electrics last similarly if the alt has not been abused.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/