mopa

I installed my A/C Compressor today and went I bought it the guy told
me to buy three cans of the R-12, you can no longer buy the regular
R-12, but this stuff is designed so it doesn't damage the Ozone layer
as much. It only does about 5% as much damage.

Anyways, I bough the three cans, and today went to another shop and the
guy installed my A/C Compressor belt, because I couldn't figure how to
install the belt. I told the guy that I had R-12 to install into the
lines, but he said no because my car had to use the R134, even though I
heard you can use the R-12 also.

Everyone is using the R-134A the guy at the shop said, where I got my
A/C compressor, and the guy said its crap. He said R-12 is designed to
stay colder than R-134A, because the R134A has to much oil and just
doesn't blow as cold when its very hot. (Daily its in the Mid 90's
here, and very humit)

The guy at the shop who installed the belt put in R134 into my car, and
it blows pretty nice (even though I was ripped off paying $40.00 for
half a can).

I have seen some cars blow so cold that it seems like your stuck in a
room with dry ice, its blowing out ice mist.

My whole question now is should I just keep the crappy R134, or is it
possible to add R-12? can the two be mixed? or would it screw up my
air.

Sorry for the long message. I am just excited because I had this 93
Honda Civic for a year and never had A/C until now. I just want to see
whats the right thing to do.

Thanks

Michael Pardee

"mopa" <buttakid@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120249069.633478.130780@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com...
>I installed my A/C Compressor today and went I bought it the guy told
> me to buy three cans of the R-12, you can no longer buy the regular
> R-12, but this stuff is designed so it doesn't damage the Ozone layer
> as much. It only does about 5% as much damage.
>
> Anyways, I bough the three cans, and today went to another shop and the
> guy installed my A/C Compressor belt, because I couldn't figure how to
> install the belt. I told the guy that I had R-12 to install into the
> lines, but he said no because my car had to use the R134, even though I
> heard you can use the R-12 also.
>
> Everyone is using the R-134A the guy at the shop said, where I got my
> A/C compressor, and the guy said its crap. He said R-12 is designed to
> stay colder than R-134A, because the R134A has to much oil and just
> doesn't blow as cold when its very hot. (Daily its in the Mid 90's
> here, and very humit)
>
> The guy at the shop who installed the belt put in R134 into my car, and
> it blows pretty nice (even though I was ripped off paying $40.00 for
> half a can).
>
> I have seen some cars blow so cold that it seems like your stuck in a
> room with dry ice, its blowing out ice mist.
>
> My whole question now is should I just keep the crappy R134, or is it
> possible to add R-12? can the two be mixed? or would it screw up my
> air.
>
> Sorry for the long message. I am just excited because I had this 93
> Honda Civic for a year and never had A/C until now. I just want to see
> whats the right thing to do.
>
> Thanks
>
R134a and R12 are not compatible and can not be mixed. When converting from
12 to 134a all the original oil must be removed, as it does not entrain in
134a and it reacts with the oil for 134a to form acids if any trace of water
gets into the system.

I have little faith in R12 substitutes. I'm not an expert, but I suspect
there's a reason they are not mainstream while R134a is. At least one
substitute is isobutane - thermodynamically nearly identical to R12 but very
flammable. A collision that punctures the condensor could be spectacular.

R12 will only get more scarce, since all the countries that signed the
Montreal Protocol have banned its manufacture or importation. Only licensed
servicemen are allowed to buy it, and the price (effectively black market)
is outrageous. Yes, it does work better than R134a in systems designed for
R12, but you don't want to do the full conversion to a true 134a system:
compressor, condensor and evaporator.... Da-ching!

Short answer - stay with R134a in what you have and get the headaches behind
you, instead of in front of you.

BTW, the ozone depletion scare for CFCs was laid to rest a full decade after
we signed the Montreal Protocol - see
http://cloud1.arc.nasa.gov/polaris/polaris.ems.html - but we still have to
live with it.

Mike

Michael Pardee

"mopa" <buttakid@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120249069.633478.130780@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com...
>I installed my A/C Compressor today and went I bought it the guy told
> me to buy three cans of the R-12, you can no longer buy the regular
> R-12, but this stuff is designed so it doesn't damage the Ozone layer
> as much. It only does about 5% as much damage.
>
> Anyways, I bough the three cans, and today went to another shop and the
> guy installed my A/C Compressor belt, because I couldn't figure how to
> install the belt. I told the guy that I had R-12 to install into the
> lines, but he said no because my car had to use the R134, even though I
> heard you can use the R-12 also.
>
> Everyone is using the R-134A the guy at the shop said, where I got my
> A/C compressor, and the guy said its crap. He said R-12 is designed to
> stay colder than R-134A, because the R134A has to much oil and just
> doesn't blow as cold when its very hot. (Daily its in the Mid 90's
> here, and very humit)
>
> The guy at the shop who installed the belt put in R134 into my car, and
> it blows pretty nice (even though I was ripped off paying $40.00 for
> half a can).
>
> I have seen some cars blow so cold that it seems like your stuck in a
> room with dry ice, its blowing out ice mist.
>
> My whole question now is should I just keep the crappy R134, or is it
> possible to add R-12? can the two be mixed? or would it screw up my
> air.
>
> Sorry for the long message. I am just excited because I had this 93
> Honda Civic for a year and never had A/C until now. I just want to see
> whats the right thing to do.
>
> Thanks
>
R134a and R12 are not compatible and can not be mixed. When converting from
12 to 134a all the original oil must be removed, as it does not entrain in
134a and it reacts with the oil for 134a to form acids if any trace of water
gets into the system.

I have little faith in R12 substitutes. I'm not an expert, but I suspect
there's a reason they are not mainstream while R134a is. At least one
substitute is isobutane - thermodynamically nearly identical to R12 but very
flammable. A collision that punctures the condensor could be spectacular.

R12 will only get more scarce, since all the countries that signed the
Montreal Protocol have banned its manufacture or importation. Only licensed
servicemen are allowed to buy it, and the price (effectively black market)
is outrageous. Yes, it does work better than R134a in systems designed for
R12, but you don't want to do the full conversion to a true 134a system:
compressor, condensor and evaporator.... Da-ching!

Short answer - stay with R134a in what you have and get the headaches behind
you, instead of in front of you.

BTW, the ozone depletion scare for CFCs was laid to rest a full decade after
we signed the Montreal Protocol - see
http://cloud1.arc.nasa.gov/polaris/polaris.ems.html - but we still have to
live with it.

Mike

mopa

Thanks Mike,

You been a real help. I am just wondering why my A/C isn't cold enough
though. I am pretty sure new cars are all using the R134A correct?

My girl-friend drives a 2002 Mazda Millennium, and when her A/C is on
it blows so damn cold that you can see a frost being sprayed out.
[simlar to when your outside when its freezing outside, and you blow
into the air, you see a steam]. If she is using the R134A, and her car
is so cold.

Why won't mine get cold? it is only cold if I am on the accelerator. If
I am sitting at a traffic light waiting for it to turn green. While I
am waiting, its just blowing out cool air, but it really isn't cold. My
air probably is around 78 degress coming out.

Is there anything that can be done to make my air colder? as you know
the older cars don't have temperature gauges like the newer cars. With
your typical newly designed car you can set the thermostat to a set
temperature such as 71 degrees, but with less expensive cars you just
push the sliding *** to the blue or red.

Thanks

mopa

Thanks Mike,

You been a real help. I am just wondering why my A/C isn't cold enough
though. I am pretty sure new cars are all using the R134A correct?

My girl-friend drives a 2002 Mazda Millennium, and when her A/C is on
it blows so damn cold that you can see a frost being sprayed out.
[simlar to when your outside when its freezing outside, and you blow
into the air, you see a steam]. If she is using the R134A, and her car
is so cold.

Why won't mine get cold? it is only cold if I am on the accelerator. If
I am sitting at a traffic light waiting for it to turn green. While I
am waiting, its just blowing out cool air, but it really isn't cold. My
air probably is around 78 degress coming out.

Is there anything that can be done to make my air colder? as you know
the older cars don't have temperature gauges like the newer cars. With
your typical newly designed car you can set the thermostat to a set
temperature such as 71 degrees, but with less expensive cars you just
push the sliding *** to the blue or red.

Thanks

Michael Pardee

"mopa" <buttakid@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120350424.730849.259120@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> Thanks Mike,
>
> You been a real help. I am just wondering why my A/C isn't cold enough
> though. I am pretty sure new cars are all using the R134A correct?
>
> My girl-friend drives a 2002 Mazda Millennium, and when her A/C is on
> it blows so damn cold that you can see a frost being sprayed out.
> [simlar to when your outside when its freezing outside, and you blow
> into the air, you see a steam]. If she is using the R134A, and her car
> is so cold.
>
> Why won't mine get cold? it is only cold if I am on the accelerator. If
> I am sitting at a traffic light waiting for it to turn green. While I
> am waiting, its just blowing out cool air, but it really isn't cold. My
> air probably is around 78 degress coming out.
>
> Is there anything that can be done to make my air colder? as you know
> the older cars don't have temperature gauges like the newer cars. With
> your typical newly designed car you can set the thermostat to a set
> temperature such as 71 degrees, but with less expensive cars you just
> push the sliding *** to the blue or red.
>
> Thanks
>
More modern cars have the entire system designed for R134a. As I understand,
it involves a different compressor and condensor, and possibly a different
evaporator. The compressor and condensor are to accomodate the higher high
side pressures R134a requires to pump the same amount of heat as R12 does.
Running R134a in an R12 system definitely results in lackluster cooling - my
'85 Volvo has that setup; works fine on the freeway, but not in town.

Mike

Michael Pardee

"mopa" <buttakid@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120350424.730849.259120@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> Thanks Mike,
>
> You been a real help. I am just wondering why my A/C isn't cold enough
> though. I am pretty sure new cars are all using the R134A correct?
>
> My girl-friend drives a 2002 Mazda Millennium, and when her A/C is on
> it blows so damn cold that you can see a frost being sprayed out.
> [simlar to when your outside when its freezing outside, and you blow
> into the air, you see a steam]. If she is using the R134A, and her car
> is so cold.
>
> Why won't mine get cold? it is only cold if I am on the accelerator. If
> I am sitting at a traffic light waiting for it to turn green. While I
> am waiting, its just blowing out cool air, but it really isn't cold. My
> air probably is around 78 degress coming out.
>
> Is there anything that can be done to make my air colder? as you know
> the older cars don't have temperature gauges like the newer cars. With
> your typical newly designed car you can set the thermostat to a set
> temperature such as 71 degrees, but with less expensive cars you just
> push the sliding *** to the blue or red.
>
> Thanks
>
More modern cars have the entire system designed for R134a. As I understand,
it involves a different compressor and condensor, and possibly a different
evaporator. The compressor and condensor are to accomodate the higher high
side pressures R134a requires to pump the same amount of heat as R12 does.
Running R134a in an R12 system definitely results in lackluster cooling - my
'85 Volvo has that setup; works fine on the freeway, but not in town.

Mike

Bubba

In article <BY2dnabnf9Rv91rfRVn-tg@sedona.net> "Michael Pardee"
<michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> writes:


>More modern cars have the entire system designed for R134a. As I understand,
>it involves a different compressor and condensor, and possibly a different
>evaporator. The compressor and condensor are to accomodate the higher high
>side pressures R134a requires to pump the same amount of heat as R12 does.
>Running R134a in an R12 system definitely results in lackluster cooling - my
>'85 Volvo has that setup; works fine on the freeway, but not in town.

I'm certainly no expert but I would agree with Mike on this. We had a '93
Lincoln Town Car "converted" to R134a reusing everything but the dryer and
it worked exactly as you describe. On the hottest days at idle speed the
cooling was hardly what you would call "cool" but get rolling down the
road and the performance was good. We had it checked a couple times
(different shops) and never found anything wrong.

Bubba

In article <BY2dnabnf9Rv91rfRVn-tg@sedona.net> "Michael Pardee"
<michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> writes:


>More modern cars have the entire system designed for R134a. As I understand,
>it involves a different compressor and condensor, and possibly a different
>evaporator. The compressor and condensor are to accomodate the higher high
>side pressures R134a requires to pump the same amount of heat as R12 does.
>Running R134a in an R12 system definitely results in lackluster cooling - my
>'85 Volvo has that setup; works fine on the freeway, but not in town.

I'm certainly no expert but I would agree with Mike on this. We had a '93
Lincoln Town Car "converted" to R134a reusing everything but the dryer and
it worked exactly as you describe. On the hottest days at idle speed the
cooling was hardly what you would call "cool" but get rolling down the
road and the performance was good. We had it checked a couple times
(different shops) and never found anything wrong.

routebeer

"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
news:BY2dnabnf9Rv91rfRVn-tg@sedona.net...
> "mopa" <buttakid@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1120350424.730849.259120@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> > Thanks Mike,
> >
> > You been a real help. I am just wondering why my A/C isn't cold enough
> > though. I am pretty sure new cars are all using the R134A correct?
> >
> > My girl-friend drives a 2002 Mazda Millennium, and when her A/C is on
> > it blows so damn cold that you can see a frost being sprayed out.
> > [simlar to when your outside when its freezing outside, and you blow
> > into the air, you see a steam]. If she is using the R134A, and her car
> > is so cold.
> >
> > Why won't mine get cold? it is only cold if I am on the accelerator. If
> > I am sitting at a traffic light waiting for it to turn green. While I
> > am waiting, its just blowing out cool air, but it really isn't cold. My
> > air probably is around 78 degress coming out.
> >
> > Is there anything that can be done to make my air colder? as you know
> > the older cars don't have temperature gauges like the newer cars. With
> > your typical newly designed car you can set the thermostat to a set
> > temperature such as 71 degrees, but with less expensive cars you just
> > push the sliding *** to the blue or red.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> More modern cars have the entire system designed for R134a. As I
understand,
> it involves a different compressor and condensor, and possibly a different
> evaporator. The compressor and condensor are to accomodate the higher high
> side pressures R134a requires to pump the same amount of heat as R12 does.

Does that mean our vehicle engines must consume more fuel to achieve the
higher pressure?

routebeer

"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
news:BY2dnabnf9Rv91rfRVn-tg@sedona.net...
> "mopa" <buttakid@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1120350424.730849.259120@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> > Thanks Mike,
> >
> > You been a real help. I am just wondering why my A/C isn't cold enough
> > though. I am pretty sure new cars are all using the R134A correct?
> >
> > My girl-friend drives a 2002 Mazda Millennium, and when her A/C is on
> > it blows so damn cold that you can see a frost being sprayed out.
> > [simlar to when your outside when its freezing outside, and you blow
> > into the air, you see a steam]. If she is using the R134A, and her car
> > is so cold.
> >
> > Why won't mine get cold? it is only cold if I am on the accelerator. If
> > I am sitting at a traffic light waiting for it to turn green. While I
> > am waiting, its just blowing out cool air, but it really isn't cold. My
> > air probably is around 78 degress coming out.
> >
> > Is there anything that can be done to make my air colder? as you know
> > the older cars don't have temperature gauges like the newer cars. With
> > your typical newly designed car you can set the thermostat to a set
> > temperature such as 71 degrees, but with less expensive cars you just
> > push the sliding *** to the blue or red.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> More modern cars have the entire system designed for R134a. As I
understand,
> it involves a different compressor and condensor, and possibly a different
> evaporator. The compressor and condensor are to accomodate the higher high
> side pressures R134a requires to pump the same amount of heat as R12 does.

Does that mean our vehicle engines must consume more fuel to achieve the
higher pressure?

Brian Smith

"routebeer" <d@aylor.com> wrote in message
news:7n_xe.448$Ae.207@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com.. .
>
> Does that mean our vehicle engines must consume more fuel to achieve the
> higher pressure?

No.

Brian Smith

"routebeer" <d@aylor.com> wrote in message
news:7n_xe.448$Ae.207@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com.. .
>
> Does that mean our vehicle engines must consume more fuel to achieve the
> higher pressure?

No.

Michael Pardee

"routebeer" <d@aylor.com> wrote in message
news:7n_xe.448$Ae.207@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com.. .
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
> news:BY2dnabnf9Rv91rfRVn-tg@sedona.net...
>> "mopa" <buttakid@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1120350424.730849.259120@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
>> > Thanks Mike,
>> >
>> > You been a real help. I am just wondering why my A/C isn't cold enough
>> > though. I am pretty sure new cars are all using the R134A correct?
>> >
>> > My girl-friend drives a 2002 Mazda Millennium, and when her A/C is on
>> > it blows so damn cold that you can see a frost being sprayed out.
>> > [simlar to when your outside when its freezing outside, and you blow
>> > into the air, you see a steam]. If she is using the R134A, and her car
>> > is so cold.
>> >
>> > Why won't mine get cold? it is only cold if I am on the accelerator. If
>> > I am sitting at a traffic light waiting for it to turn green. While I
>> > am waiting, its just blowing out cool air, but it really isn't cold. My
>> > air probably is around 78 degress coming out.
>> >
>> > Is there anything that can be done to make my air colder? as you know
>> > the older cars don't have temperature gauges like the newer cars. With
>> > your typical newly designed car you can set the thermostat to a set
>> > temperature such as 71 degrees, but with less expensive cars you just
>> > push the sliding *** to the blue or red.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> More modern cars have the entire system designed for R134a. As I
> understand,
>> it involves a different compressor and condensor, and possibly a
>> different
>> evaporator. The compressor and condensor are to accomodate the higher
>> high
>> side pressures R134a requires to pump the same amount of heat as R12
>> does.
>
> Does that mean our vehicle engines must consume more fuel to achieve the
> higher pressure?
>
>
No - it's a complicated thing (I researched it a lot about 8 years ago) that
results in roughly the same amount of energy being required to pump the heat
pretty much regardless of the pressure difference. The actual pressures are
the result of the pressure/temperature curve for each gas, and the actual
compression energy required is more dependent on condensor temperature than
on condensor pressure per se.

A factor slightly in favor of R134a is the "ratio of specific heats" -
essentially a measure of loss as the gas is compressed and expanded. R12 is
about 1.13 while R134a is about 1.09 (1.0 is perfect; air is about 1.4).

Mike

Michael Pardee

"routebeer" <d@aylor.com> wrote in message
news:7n_xe.448$Ae.207@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com.. .
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
> news:BY2dnabnf9Rv91rfRVn-tg@sedona.net...
>> "mopa" <buttakid@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1120350424.730849.259120@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
>> > Thanks Mike,
>> >
>> > You been a real help. I am just wondering why my A/C isn't cold enough
>> > though. I am pretty sure new cars are all using the R134A correct?
>> >
>> > My girl-friend drives a 2002 Mazda Millennium, and when her A/C is on
>> > it blows so damn cold that you can see a frost being sprayed out.
>> > [simlar to when your outside when its freezing outside, and you blow
>> > into the air, you see a steam]. If she is using the R134A, and her car
>> > is so cold.
>> >
>> > Why won't mine get cold? it is only cold if I am on the accelerator. If
>> > I am sitting at a traffic light waiting for it to turn green. While I
>> > am waiting, its just blowing out cool air, but it really isn't cold. My
>> > air probably is around 78 degress coming out.
>> >
>> > Is there anything that can be done to make my air colder? as you know
>> > the older cars don't have temperature gauges like the newer cars. With
>> > your typical newly designed car you can set the thermostat to a set
>> > temperature such as 71 degrees, but with less expensive cars you just
>> > push the sliding *** to the blue or red.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> More modern cars have the entire system designed for R134a. As I
> understand,
>> it involves a different compressor and condensor, and possibly a
>> different
>> evaporator. The compressor and condensor are to accomodate the higher
>> high
>> side pressures R134a requires to pump the same amount of heat as R12
>> does.
>
> Does that mean our vehicle engines must consume more fuel to achieve the
> higher pressure?
>
>
No - it's a complicated thing (I researched it a lot about 8 years ago) that
results in roughly the same amount of energy being required to pump the heat
pretty much regardless of the pressure difference. The actual pressures are
the result of the pressure/temperature curve for each gas, and the actual
compression energy required is more dependent on condensor temperature than
on condensor pressure per se.

A factor slightly in favor of R134a is the "ratio of specific heats" -
essentially a measure of loss as the gas is compressed and expanded. R12 is
about 1.13 while R134a is about 1.09 (1.0 is perfect; air is about 1.4).

Mike