01 elantra trans synchros?
03-13-2007, 09:33 PM
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
01 elantra trans synchros?
This isn't something I'm going to attack myself, I'm more curious
about difficulty and price.
My 01 elantra stickshift is having trans issues. When downshifting
into 1st or 2nd gear I get serious grinding. It doesn't happen when
accelerating from a stop and/or shifting 1->2, or in any other gears.
People tell me my syncros are going, and while I understand the concept
of synchronizing the gear speed as they mesh, the actual mechanics of
it (or actually fixing it) are well beyond me.
It's going to go to a shop, but my question then is, how hard is this?
I have a bad feeling that the trans will have to be removed and some
serious internal work will be required, but I'm also a natural
pessimist. Any thoughts as to the difficulty?
I probably ought to get this done soon. Learning to float gears and
estimating proper rpms isn't coming to me quickly enough.
Thanks
Ben
about difficulty and price.
My 01 elantra stickshift is having trans issues. When downshifting
into 1st or 2nd gear I get serious grinding. It doesn't happen when
accelerating from a stop and/or shifting 1->2, or in any other gears.
People tell me my syncros are going, and while I understand the concept
of synchronizing the gear speed as they mesh, the actual mechanics of
it (or actually fixing it) are well beyond me.
It's going to go to a shop, but my question then is, how hard is this?
I have a bad feeling that the trans will have to be removed and some
serious internal work will be required, but I'm also a natural
pessimist. Any thoughts as to the difficulty?
I probably ought to get this done soon. Learning to float gears and
estimating proper rpms isn't coming to me quickly enough.
Thanks
Ben
03-14-2007, 06:50 AM
#2
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 01 elantra trans synchros?
Richard Dreyfuss wrote:
> This isn't something I'm going to attack myself, I'm more curious
> about difficulty and price.
>
> My 01 elantra stickshift is having trans issues. When downshifting
> into 1st or 2nd gear I get serious grinding. It doesn't happen when
> accelerating from a stop and/or shifting 1->2, or in any other gears.
> People tell me my syncros are going, and while I understand the concept
> of synchronizing the gear speed as they mesh, the actual mechanics of
> it (or actually fixing it) are well beyond me.
Unfortunately, your friends are correct. The 2 > 1 shift will almost
always grind if you're not at a dead stop, but if the 3 > 2 shift is
grinding, the synchronizers are probably worn.
> It's going to go to a shop, but my question then is, how hard is this?
> I have a bad feeling that the trans will have to be removed and some
> serious internal work will be required, but I'm also a natural
> pessimist. Any thoughts as to the difficulty?
Replacing the synchronizers requires a transmission rebuild, which will
likely cost $1000-$1500, most of which is labor.
If you're downshifting and engine braking, stop doing it. As you're
learning, brake pads are a lot cheaper than transmission rebuilds, so it
makes sense to use the brakes to stop the car, rather than wearing out
the transmission by engine braking.
> I probably ought to get this done soon.
That's up to you, as it's more of an inconvenience than a major problem.
It's not likely to cause a more serious failure, though it would
probably be a good idea to change the transmission oil in order to
remove as much of the wear particles as possible. I strongly suggest
using a good synthetic transmission oil like Redline MT-90. Regardless,
you MUST use a GL-4 oil ONLY, as Hyundai transmissions require it! DO
NOT let anyone put GL-5 or "universal" oil in your transmission, as it
will cause premature synchronizer wear.
Modifying your driving habits is an easy and inexpensive workaround for
the issue you're having and it will allow you to put off the rebuild
nearly indefinitely. If you continue driving in the same manner, you'll
quickly wear out rebuilt synchronizers too, making a rebuild largely a
waste of money.
> Learning to float gears and
> estimating proper rpms isn't coming to me quickly enough.
Generally, all it takes is a well-timed blip of the throttle, which is
something you develop by feel. Still, I would recommend getting out of
the downshifting habit. If you're determined to keep doing it, learn to
double-clutch.
> This isn't something I'm going to attack myself, I'm more curious
> about difficulty and price.
>
> My 01 elantra stickshift is having trans issues. When downshifting
> into 1st or 2nd gear I get serious grinding. It doesn't happen when
> accelerating from a stop and/or shifting 1->2, or in any other gears.
> People tell me my syncros are going, and while I understand the concept
> of synchronizing the gear speed as they mesh, the actual mechanics of
> it (or actually fixing it) are well beyond me.
Unfortunately, your friends are correct. The 2 > 1 shift will almost
always grind if you're not at a dead stop, but if the 3 > 2 shift is
grinding, the synchronizers are probably worn.
> It's going to go to a shop, but my question then is, how hard is this?
> I have a bad feeling that the trans will have to be removed and some
> serious internal work will be required, but I'm also a natural
> pessimist. Any thoughts as to the difficulty?
Replacing the synchronizers requires a transmission rebuild, which will
likely cost $1000-$1500, most of which is labor.
If you're downshifting and engine braking, stop doing it. As you're
learning, brake pads are a lot cheaper than transmission rebuilds, so it
makes sense to use the brakes to stop the car, rather than wearing out
the transmission by engine braking.
> I probably ought to get this done soon.
That's up to you, as it's more of an inconvenience than a major problem.
It's not likely to cause a more serious failure, though it would
probably be a good idea to change the transmission oil in order to
remove as much of the wear particles as possible. I strongly suggest
using a good synthetic transmission oil like Redline MT-90. Regardless,
you MUST use a GL-4 oil ONLY, as Hyundai transmissions require it! DO
NOT let anyone put GL-5 or "universal" oil in your transmission, as it
will cause premature synchronizer wear.
Modifying your driving habits is an easy and inexpensive workaround for
the issue you're having and it will allow you to put off the rebuild
nearly indefinitely. If you continue driving in the same manner, you'll
quickly wear out rebuilt synchronizers too, making a rebuild largely a
waste of money.
> Learning to float gears and
> estimating proper rpms isn't coming to me quickly enough.
Generally, all it takes is a well-timed blip of the throttle, which is
something you develop by feel. Still, I would recommend getting out of
the downshifting habit. If you're determined to keep doing it, learn to
double-clutch.
03-14-2007, 09:18 AM
#3
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 01 elantra trans synchros?
"Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:csQJh.8153$vb.6751@trndny04...
> Richard Dreyfuss wrote:
> > This isn't something I'm going to attack myself, I'm more curious
> > about difficulty and price.
> >
> > My 01 elantra stickshift is having trans issues. When downshifting
> > into 1st or 2nd gear I get serious grinding. It doesn't happen when
> > accelerating from a stop and/or shifting 1->2, or in any other gears.
> > People tell me my syncros are going, and while I understand the concept
> > of synchronizing the gear speed as they mesh, the actual mechanics of
> > it (or actually fixing it) are well beyond me.
>
> Unfortunately, your friends are correct. The 2 > 1 shift will almost
> always grind if you're not at a dead stop, but if the 3 > 2 shift is
> grinding, the synchronizers are probably worn.
>
I'm really surprised to see this Brian. Cars have been fully sychronized
for decades, so it really surprises me that there are not synchros between
1,2. I havent' owned a manual transmission for several years now, so I
don't doubt that there are trannys on the market that behave differently
than what I was last used to, but man - that's a step backwards.
>
> If you're downshifting and engine braking, stop doing it. As you're
> learning, brake pads are a lot cheaper than transmission rebuilds, so it
> makes sense to use the brakes to stop the car, rather than wearing out
> the transmission by engine braking.
>
For any particular car this may be dead nut truth, but as a principle of
manual transmissions, I'd have to disagree. I have always downshifted every
single manual tranny I ever owned, with no ill effects. No premature wear,
etc.
>
> Generally, all it takes is a well-timed blip of the throttle, which is
> something you develop by feel. Still, I would recommend getting out of
> the downshifting habit. If you're determined to keep doing it, learn to
> double-clutch.
Ah - the good old days, huh? Remember when you had no choice - you had to
do this? Most modern manuals (qualified by the ones I've experienced) with
decent synchro's don't require a blip anymore, unless you're coming down
from way too high. In that case, it is questionable whether the downshift
should even be taking place at that speed/rpm. I have not double clutched a
manual in so long that I don't remember the last vehicle that I had to do it
in - other than a fire truck.
--
-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net
03-14-2007, 12:56 PM
#4
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 01 elantra trans synchros?
Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in
news:csQJh.8153$vb.6751@trndny04:
> If you're downshifting and engine braking, stop doing it. As you're
> learning, brake pads are a lot cheaper than transmission rebuilds,
> so it makes sense to use the brakes to stop the car, rather than
> wearing out the transmission by engine braking.
I suppose I didn't explain properly. I don't tend to downshift for
braking purposes, I just meant when shifting down from a higher gear,
such as dropping down into 2nd gear after turning a corner or after
slowing for a traffic obstacle.
I've never been a huge fan of engine braking (except on steep hills
such as in colorado, but I've never been there with this car). I
always figured that there was extra clutch wear (engaging it extra
times every time you decelerate), and I can do brakes many times over
for the cost of what I'd have to pay someone else to replace my clutch.
That's the theory anyway.
Ben
news:csQJh.8153$vb.6751@trndny04:
> If you're downshifting and engine braking, stop doing it. As you're
> learning, brake pads are a lot cheaper than transmission rebuilds,
> so it makes sense to use the brakes to stop the car, rather than
> wearing out the transmission by engine braking.
I suppose I didn't explain properly. I don't tend to downshift for
braking purposes, I just meant when shifting down from a higher gear,
such as dropping down into 2nd gear after turning a corner or after
slowing for a traffic obstacle.
I've never been a huge fan of engine braking (except on steep hills
such as in colorado, but I've never been there with this car). I
always figured that there was extra clutch wear (engaging it extra
times every time you decelerate), and I can do brakes many times over
for the cost of what I'd have to pay someone else to replace my clutch.
That's the theory anyway.
Ben
03-14-2007, 04:52 PM
#5
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 01 elantra trans synchros?
Mike Marlow wrote:
> "Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:csQJh.8153$vb.6751@trndny04...
>> Richard Dreyfuss wrote:
>>> This isn't something I'm going to attack myself, I'm more curious
>>> about difficulty and price.
>>>
>>> My 01 elantra stickshift is having trans issues. When downshifting
>>> into 1st or 2nd gear I get serious grinding. It doesn't happen when
>>> accelerating from a stop and/or shifting 1->2, or in any other gears.
>>> People tell me my syncros are going, and while I understand the concept
>>> of synchronizing the gear speed as they mesh, the actual mechanics of
>>> it (or actually fixing it) are well beyond me.
>> Unfortunately, your friends are correct. The 2 > 1 shift will almost
>> always grind if you're not at a dead stop, but if the 3 > 2 shift is
>> grinding, the synchronizers are probably worn.
>>
>
> I'm really surprised to see this Brian. Cars have been fully sychronized
> for decades, so it really surprises me that there are not synchros between
> 1,2. I havent' owned a manual transmission for several years now, so I
> don't doubt that there are trannys on the market that behave differently
> than what I was last used to, but man - that's a step backwards.
The difference in RPM is greater between the lower gears so the synchros
have to work a lot harder, however, my Sonata goes into first OK if you
are going less than 10 MPH or so. I always blip the throttle on down
shifts as well which helps.
>> If you're downshifting and engine braking, stop doing it. As you're
>> learning, brake pads are a lot cheaper than transmission rebuilds, so it
>> makes sense to use the brakes to stop the car, rather than wearing out
>> the transmission by engine braking.
>>
>
> For any particular car this may be dead nut truth, but as a principle of
> manual transmissions, I'd have to disagree. I have always downshifted every
> single manual tranny I ever owned, with no ill effects. No premature wear,
> etc.
Same here. This is the way standard shift is meant to be driven. It is
a good idea to blip the throttle on down shifts though to help
synchronize the speeds a little. I don't double-clutch my cars as I did
when I was driving OTR, but blipping the throttle helps and is easy.
>> Generally, all it takes is a well-timed blip of the throttle, which is
>> something you develop by feel. Still, I would recommend getting out of
>> the downshifting habit. If you're determined to keep doing it, learn to
>> double-clutch.
>
> Ah - the good old days, huh? Remember when you had no choice - you had to
> do this? Most modern manuals (qualified by the ones I've experienced) with
> decent synchro's don't require a blip anymore, unless you're coming down
> from way too high. In that case, it is questionable whether the downshift
> should even be taking place at that speed/rpm. I have not double clutched a
> manual in so long that I don't remember the last vehicle that I had to do it
> in - other than a fire truck.
Blipping the throttle isn't necessarily required, but it is very good
technique.
Matt
> "Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:csQJh.8153$vb.6751@trndny04...
>> Richard Dreyfuss wrote:
>>> This isn't something I'm going to attack myself, I'm more curious
>>> about difficulty and price.
>>>
>>> My 01 elantra stickshift is having trans issues. When downshifting
>>> into 1st or 2nd gear I get serious grinding. It doesn't happen when
>>> accelerating from a stop and/or shifting 1->2, or in any other gears.
>>> People tell me my syncros are going, and while I understand the concept
>>> of synchronizing the gear speed as they mesh, the actual mechanics of
>>> it (or actually fixing it) are well beyond me.
>> Unfortunately, your friends are correct. The 2 > 1 shift will almost
>> always grind if you're not at a dead stop, but if the 3 > 2 shift is
>> grinding, the synchronizers are probably worn.
>>
>
> I'm really surprised to see this Brian. Cars have been fully sychronized
> for decades, so it really surprises me that there are not synchros between
> 1,2. I havent' owned a manual transmission for several years now, so I
> don't doubt that there are trannys on the market that behave differently
> than what I was last used to, but man - that's a step backwards.
The difference in RPM is greater between the lower gears so the synchros
have to work a lot harder, however, my Sonata goes into first OK if you
are going less than 10 MPH or so. I always blip the throttle on down
shifts as well which helps.
>> If you're downshifting and engine braking, stop doing it. As you're
>> learning, brake pads are a lot cheaper than transmission rebuilds, so it
>> makes sense to use the brakes to stop the car, rather than wearing out
>> the transmission by engine braking.
>>
>
> For any particular car this may be dead nut truth, but as a principle of
> manual transmissions, I'd have to disagree. I have always downshifted every
> single manual tranny I ever owned, with no ill effects. No premature wear,
> etc.
Same here. This is the way standard shift is meant to be driven. It is
a good idea to blip the throttle on down shifts though to help
synchronize the speeds a little. I don't double-clutch my cars as I did
when I was driving OTR, but blipping the throttle helps and is easy.
>> Generally, all it takes is a well-timed blip of the throttle, which is
>> something you develop by feel. Still, I would recommend getting out of
>> the downshifting habit. If you're determined to keep doing it, learn to
>> double-clutch.
>
> Ah - the good old days, huh? Remember when you had no choice - you had to
> do this? Most modern manuals (qualified by the ones I've experienced) with
> decent synchro's don't require a blip anymore, unless you're coming down
> from way too high. In that case, it is questionable whether the downshift
> should even be taking place at that speed/rpm. I have not double clutched a
> manual in so long that I don't remember the last vehicle that I had to do it
> in - other than a fire truck.
Blipping the throttle isn't necessarily required, but it is very good
technique.
Matt
03-14-2007, 04:52 PM
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 01 elantra trans synchros?
Richard Dreyfuss wrote:
> Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in
> news:csQJh.8153$vb.6751@trndny04:
>
>> If you're downshifting and engine braking, stop doing it. As you're
>> learning, brake pads are a lot cheaper than transmission rebuilds,
>> so it makes sense to use the brakes to stop the car, rather than
>> wearing out the transmission by engine braking.
>
> I suppose I didn't explain properly. I don't tend to downshift for
> braking purposes, I just meant when shifting down from a higher gear,
> such as dropping down into 2nd gear after turning a corner or after
> slowing for a traffic obstacle.
>
> I've never been a huge fan of engine braking (except on steep hills
> such as in colorado, but I've never been there with this car). I
> always figured that there was extra clutch wear (engaging it extra
> times every time you decelerate), and I can do brakes many times over
> for the cost of what I'd have to pay someone else to replace my clutch.
> That's the theory anyway.
Proper shifting causes almost zero clutch wear.
Matt
> Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in
> news:csQJh.8153$vb.6751@trndny04:
>
>> If you're downshifting and engine braking, stop doing it. As you're
>> learning, brake pads are a lot cheaper than transmission rebuilds,
>> so it makes sense to use the brakes to stop the car, rather than
>> wearing out the transmission by engine braking.
>
> I suppose I didn't explain properly. I don't tend to downshift for
> braking purposes, I just meant when shifting down from a higher gear,
> such as dropping down into 2nd gear after turning a corner or after
> slowing for a traffic obstacle.
>
> I've never been a huge fan of engine braking (except on steep hills
> such as in colorado, but I've never been there with this car). I
> always figured that there was extra clutch wear (engaging it extra
> times every time you decelerate), and I can do brakes many times over
> for the cost of what I'd have to pay someone else to replace my clutch.
> That's the theory anyway.
Proper shifting causes almost zero clutch wear.
Matt
03-15-2007, 06:37 AM
#7
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 01 elantra trans synchros?
Mike Marlow wrote:
> "Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:csQJh.8153$vb.6751@trndny04...
>> Richard Dreyfuss wrote:
>>> This isn't something I'm going to attack myself, I'm more curious
>>> about difficulty and price.
>>>
>>> My 01 elantra stickshift is having trans issues. When downshifting
>>> into 1st or 2nd gear I get serious grinding. It doesn't happen when
>>> accelerating from a stop and/or shifting 1->2, or in any other gears.
>>> People tell me my syncros are going, and while I understand the concept
>>> of synchronizing the gear speed as they mesh, the actual mechanics of
>>> it (or actually fixing it) are well beyond me.
>> Unfortunately, your friends are correct. The 2 > 1 shift will almost
>> always grind if you're not at a dead stop, but if the 3 > 2 shift is
>> grinding, the synchronizers are probably worn.
>>
>
> I'm really surprised to see this Brian. Cars have been fully sychronized
> for decades, so it really surprises me that there are not synchros between
> 1,2. I havent' owned a manual transmission for several years now, so I
> don't doubt that there are trannys on the market that behave differently
> than what I was last used to, but man - that's a step backwards.
There are probably 1-2 synchros, but every car I've owned (I've never
owned an automatic) has had a tendency to grind during 2>1 shifts if the
car is moving. The Elantra definitely does. If you're moving at anything
more than a crawl, downshifting to first is unnecessary and pointless,
so I rarely do it.
>> If you're downshifting and engine braking, stop doing it. As you're
>> learning, brake pads are a lot cheaper than transmission rebuilds, so it
>> makes sense to use the brakes to stop the car, rather than wearing out
>> the transmission by engine braking.
>>
>
> For any particular car this may be dead nut truth, but as a principle of
> manual transmissions, I'd have to disagree. I have always downshifted every
> single manual tranny I ever owned, with no ill effects. No premature wear,
> etc.
Consider yourself lucky. Downshifting without RPM matching does wear the
synchros and engine braking wears the gears. Whether it's enough to
cause a problem over the typical life of a given transmission is
debatable. FWIW, I used to drive my cars hard, heel and toe downshifting
all the time and it never caused a problem (sadly, Hyundai pedal
placement is lousy for this). However, Hyundai transmissions are prone
to synchronizer wear (as I learned with my first one), so I don't
downshift/engine brake in the Elantra.
>> Generally, all it takes is a well-timed blip of the throttle, which is
>> something you develop by feel. Still, I would recommend getting out of
>> the downshifting habit. If you're determined to keep doing it, learn to
>> double-clutch.
>
> Ah - the good old days, huh? Remember when you had no choice - you had to
> do this? Most modern manuals (qualified by the ones I've experienced) with
> decent synchro's don't require a blip anymore, unless you're coming down
> from way too high.
While that may be true, it doesn't mean it's good technique or that RPM
matching is not a MUCH better technique. It dramatically improves the
smoothness of downshifts while reducing wear on the clutch and
transmission. For that matter, if you match RPMs well, you don't even
need the clutch for upshifts OR downshifts. Again, this is not something
I do any longer, but I experimented with it years ago, so I know it's
possible. When you get it right, it's pretty amazing, when you don't it
sounds horrible!
> In that case, it is questionable whether the downshift
> should even be taking place at that speed/rpm.
True, but it depends on how aggressively you're driving. For example,
when braking hard into a low speed corner requires pretty dramatic
downshifting if you're planning on exiting said corner in a hurry.
> I have not double clutched a
> manual in so long that I don't remember the last vehicle that I had to do it
> in - other than a fire truck.
I've never had a vehicle that required it, except for downshifting when
the synchros were worn.
> "Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:csQJh.8153$vb.6751@trndny04...
>> Richard Dreyfuss wrote:
>>> This isn't something I'm going to attack myself, I'm more curious
>>> about difficulty and price.
>>>
>>> My 01 elantra stickshift is having trans issues. When downshifting
>>> into 1st or 2nd gear I get serious grinding. It doesn't happen when
>>> accelerating from a stop and/or shifting 1->2, or in any other gears.
>>> People tell me my syncros are going, and while I understand the concept
>>> of synchronizing the gear speed as they mesh, the actual mechanics of
>>> it (or actually fixing it) are well beyond me.
>> Unfortunately, your friends are correct. The 2 > 1 shift will almost
>> always grind if you're not at a dead stop, but if the 3 > 2 shift is
>> grinding, the synchronizers are probably worn.
>>
>
> I'm really surprised to see this Brian. Cars have been fully sychronized
> for decades, so it really surprises me that there are not synchros between
> 1,2. I havent' owned a manual transmission for several years now, so I
> don't doubt that there are trannys on the market that behave differently
> than what I was last used to, but man - that's a step backwards.
There are probably 1-2 synchros, but every car I've owned (I've never
owned an automatic) has had a tendency to grind during 2>1 shifts if the
car is moving. The Elantra definitely does. If you're moving at anything
more than a crawl, downshifting to first is unnecessary and pointless,
so I rarely do it.
>> If you're downshifting and engine braking, stop doing it. As you're
>> learning, brake pads are a lot cheaper than transmission rebuilds, so it
>> makes sense to use the brakes to stop the car, rather than wearing out
>> the transmission by engine braking.
>>
>
> For any particular car this may be dead nut truth, but as a principle of
> manual transmissions, I'd have to disagree. I have always downshifted every
> single manual tranny I ever owned, with no ill effects. No premature wear,
> etc.
Consider yourself lucky. Downshifting without RPM matching does wear the
synchros and engine braking wears the gears. Whether it's enough to
cause a problem over the typical life of a given transmission is
debatable. FWIW, I used to drive my cars hard, heel and toe downshifting
all the time and it never caused a problem (sadly, Hyundai pedal
placement is lousy for this). However, Hyundai transmissions are prone
to synchronizer wear (as I learned with my first one), so I don't
downshift/engine brake in the Elantra.
>> Generally, all it takes is a well-timed blip of the throttle, which is
>> something you develop by feel. Still, I would recommend getting out of
>> the downshifting habit. If you're determined to keep doing it, learn to
>> double-clutch.
>
> Ah - the good old days, huh? Remember when you had no choice - you had to
> do this? Most modern manuals (qualified by the ones I've experienced) with
> decent synchro's don't require a blip anymore, unless you're coming down
> from way too high.
While that may be true, it doesn't mean it's good technique or that RPM
matching is not a MUCH better technique. It dramatically improves the
smoothness of downshifts while reducing wear on the clutch and
transmission. For that matter, if you match RPMs well, you don't even
need the clutch for upshifts OR downshifts. Again, this is not something
I do any longer, but I experimented with it years ago, so I know it's
possible. When you get it right, it's pretty amazing, when you don't it
sounds horrible!
> In that case, it is questionable whether the downshift
> should even be taking place at that speed/rpm.
True, but it depends on how aggressively you're driving. For example,
when braking hard into a low speed corner requires pretty dramatic
downshifting if you're planning on exiting said corner in a hurry.
> I have not double clutched a
> manual in so long that I don't remember the last vehicle that I had to do it
> in - other than a fire truck.
I've never had a vehicle that required it, except for downshifting when
the synchros were worn.
03-15-2007, 06:40 AM
#8
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 01 elantra trans synchros?
Matt Whiting wrote:
> Richard Dreyfuss wrote:
>> Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in
>> news:csQJh.8153$vb.6751@trndny04:
>>> If you're downshifting and engine braking, stop doing it. As you're
>>> learning, brake pads are a lot cheaper than transmission rebuilds,
>>> so it makes sense to use the brakes to stop the car, rather than
>>> wearing out the transmission by engine braking.
>>
>> I suppose I didn't explain properly. I don't tend to downshift for
>> braking purposes, I just meant when shifting down from a higher gear,
>> such as dropping down into 2nd gear after turning a corner or after
>> slowing for a traffic obstacle.
>>
>> I've never been a huge fan of engine braking (except on steep hills
>> such as in colorado, but I've never been there with this car). I
>> always figured that there was extra clutch wear (engaging it extra
>> times every time you decelerate), and I can do brakes many times over
>> for the cost of what I'd have to pay someone else to replace my
>> clutch. That's the theory anyway.
>
> Proper shifting causes almost zero clutch wear.
True, but it's common to slip the clutch when downshifting for the
purposes of engine braking, in order to avoid sudden deceleration and
the jerkiness it can cause, particularly in low gears. That does wear
the clutch considerably. I assume that's what he's referring to.
> Richard Dreyfuss wrote:
>> Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in
>> news:csQJh.8153$vb.6751@trndny04:
>>> If you're downshifting and engine braking, stop doing it. As you're
>>> learning, brake pads are a lot cheaper than transmission rebuilds,
>>> so it makes sense to use the brakes to stop the car, rather than
>>> wearing out the transmission by engine braking.
>>
>> I suppose I didn't explain properly. I don't tend to downshift for
>> braking purposes, I just meant when shifting down from a higher gear,
>> such as dropping down into 2nd gear after turning a corner or after
>> slowing for a traffic obstacle.
>>
>> I've never been a huge fan of engine braking (except on steep hills
>> such as in colorado, but I've never been there with this car). I
>> always figured that there was extra clutch wear (engaging it extra
>> times every time you decelerate), and I can do brakes many times over
>> for the cost of what I'd have to pay someone else to replace my
>> clutch. That's the theory anyway.
>
> Proper shifting causes almost zero clutch wear.
True, but it's common to slip the clutch when downshifting for the
purposes of engine braking, in order to avoid sudden deceleration and
the jerkiness it can cause, particularly in low gears. That does wear
the clutch considerably. I assume that's what he's referring to.
03-15-2007, 06:41 AM
#9
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 01 elantra trans synchros?
Richard Dreyfuss wrote:
> Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in
> news:csQJh.8153$vb.6751@trndny04:
>
>> If you're downshifting and engine braking, stop doing it. As you're
>> learning, brake pads are a lot cheaper than transmission rebuilds,
>> so it makes sense to use the brakes to stop the car, rather than
>> wearing out the transmission by engine braking.
>
> I suppose I didn't explain properly. I don't tend to downshift for
> braking purposes, I just meant when shifting down from a higher gear,
> such as dropping down into 2nd gear after turning a corner or after
> slowing for a traffic obstacle.
OK. If that's the case, your synchros are probably worn.
> I've never been a huge fan of engine braking (except on steep hills
> such as in colorado, but I've never been there with this car). I
> always figured that there was extra clutch wear (engaging it extra
> times every time you decelerate), and I can do brakes many times over
> for the cost of what I'd have to pay someone else to replace my clutch.
> That's the theory anyway.
Sounds good to me.
> Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in
> news:csQJh.8153$vb.6751@trndny04:
>
>> If you're downshifting and engine braking, stop doing it. As you're
>> learning, brake pads are a lot cheaper than transmission rebuilds,
>> so it makes sense to use the brakes to stop the car, rather than
>> wearing out the transmission by engine braking.
>
> I suppose I didn't explain properly. I don't tend to downshift for
> braking purposes, I just meant when shifting down from a higher gear,
> such as dropping down into 2nd gear after turning a corner or after
> slowing for a traffic obstacle.
OK. If that's the case, your synchros are probably worn.
> I've never been a huge fan of engine braking (except on steep hills
> such as in colorado, but I've never been there with this car). I
> always figured that there was extra clutch wear (engaging it extra
> times every time you decelerate), and I can do brakes many times over
> for the cost of what I'd have to pay someone else to replace my clutch.
> That's the theory anyway.
Sounds good to me.
03-15-2007, 07:34 AM
#10
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 01 elantra trans synchros?
Brian Nystrom wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> "Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in message
>> news:csQJh.8153$vb.6751@trndny04...
>>> Richard Dreyfuss wrote:
>>>> This isn't something I'm going to attack myself, I'm more curious
>>>> about difficulty and price.
>>>>
>>>> My 01 elantra stickshift is having trans issues. When downshifting
>>>> into 1st or 2nd gear I get serious grinding. It doesn't happen when
>>>> accelerating from a stop and/or shifting 1->2, or in any other gears.
>>>> People tell me my syncros are going, and while I understand the concept
>>>> of synchronizing the gear speed as they mesh, the actual mechanics of
>>>> it (or actually fixing it) are well beyond me.
>>> Unfortunately, your friends are correct. The 2 > 1 shift will almost
>>> always grind if you're not at a dead stop, but if the 3 > 2 shift is
>>> grinding, the synchronizers are probably worn.
>>>
>>
>> I'm really surprised to see this Brian. Cars have been fully sychronized
>> for decades, so it really surprises me that there are not synchros
>> between
>> 1,2. I havent' owned a manual transmission for several years now, so I
>> don't doubt that there are trannys on the market that behave differently
>> than what I was last used to, but man - that's a step backwards.
>
> There are probably 1-2 synchros, but every car I've owned (I've never
> owned an automatic) has had a tendency to grind during 2>1 shifts if the
> car is moving. The Elantra definitely does. If you're moving at anything
> more than a crawl, downshifting to first is unnecessary and pointless,
> so I rarely do it.
My Sonata needs first below about 10 MPH. It is really gutless at low
RPM and doesn't pull away in second as my previous cars have done. It
seems to have almost no torque below 1500 RPM, unlike my pickup that
will pull literally down to idle.
>>> If you're downshifting and engine braking, stop doing it. As you're
>>> learning, brake pads are a lot cheaper than transmission rebuilds, so it
>>> makes sense to use the brakes to stop the car, rather than wearing out
>>> the transmission by engine braking.
>>>
>>
>> For any particular car this may be dead nut truth, but as a principle of
>> manual transmissions, I'd have to disagree. I have always downshifted
>> every
>> single manual tranny I ever owned, with no ill effects. No premature
>> wear,
>> etc.
>
> Consider yourself lucky. Downshifting without RPM matching does wear the
> synchros and engine braking wears the gears. Whether it's enough to
> cause a problem over the typical life of a given transmission is
> debatable. FWIW, I used to drive my cars hard, heel and toe downshifting
> all the time and it never caused a problem (sadly, Hyundai pedal
> placement is lousy for this). However, Hyundai transmissions are prone
> to synchronizer wear (as I learned with my first one), so I don't
> downshift/engine brake in the Elantra.
Sure it causes some wear, but if you change your oil regularly this wear
is almost imperceptible. And the wear on the gears is on the other side
of the teeth which are seldom used so you are wearing a part that
otherwise sees no wear and in any event gets far less wear than the
drive side of the gear teeth.
If Hyundai's are prone to synchro wear, it is due to poor materials or
design.
Matt
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> "Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in message
>> news:csQJh.8153$vb.6751@trndny04...
>>> Richard Dreyfuss wrote:
>>>> This isn't something I'm going to attack myself, I'm more curious
>>>> about difficulty and price.
>>>>
>>>> My 01 elantra stickshift is having trans issues. When downshifting
>>>> into 1st or 2nd gear I get serious grinding. It doesn't happen when
>>>> accelerating from a stop and/or shifting 1->2, or in any other gears.
>>>> People tell me my syncros are going, and while I understand the concept
>>>> of synchronizing the gear speed as they mesh, the actual mechanics of
>>>> it (or actually fixing it) are well beyond me.
>>> Unfortunately, your friends are correct. The 2 > 1 shift will almost
>>> always grind if you're not at a dead stop, but if the 3 > 2 shift is
>>> grinding, the synchronizers are probably worn.
>>>
>>
>> I'm really surprised to see this Brian. Cars have been fully sychronized
>> for decades, so it really surprises me that there are not synchros
>> between
>> 1,2. I havent' owned a manual transmission for several years now, so I
>> don't doubt that there are trannys on the market that behave differently
>> than what I was last used to, but man - that's a step backwards.
>
> There are probably 1-2 synchros, but every car I've owned (I've never
> owned an automatic) has had a tendency to grind during 2>1 shifts if the
> car is moving. The Elantra definitely does. If you're moving at anything
> more than a crawl, downshifting to first is unnecessary and pointless,
> so I rarely do it.
My Sonata needs first below about 10 MPH. It is really gutless at low
RPM and doesn't pull away in second as my previous cars have done. It
seems to have almost no torque below 1500 RPM, unlike my pickup that
will pull literally down to idle.
>>> If you're downshifting and engine braking, stop doing it. As you're
>>> learning, brake pads are a lot cheaper than transmission rebuilds, so it
>>> makes sense to use the brakes to stop the car, rather than wearing out
>>> the transmission by engine braking.
>>>
>>
>> For any particular car this may be dead nut truth, but as a principle of
>> manual transmissions, I'd have to disagree. I have always downshifted
>> every
>> single manual tranny I ever owned, with no ill effects. No premature
>> wear,
>> etc.
>
> Consider yourself lucky. Downshifting without RPM matching does wear the
> synchros and engine braking wears the gears. Whether it's enough to
> cause a problem over the typical life of a given transmission is
> debatable. FWIW, I used to drive my cars hard, heel and toe downshifting
> all the time and it never caused a problem (sadly, Hyundai pedal
> placement is lousy for this). However, Hyundai transmissions are prone
> to synchronizer wear (as I learned with my first one), so I don't
> downshift/engine brake in the Elantra.
Sure it causes some wear, but if you change your oil regularly this wear
is almost imperceptible. And the wear on the gears is on the other side
of the teeth which are seldom used so you are wearing a part that
otherwise sees no wear and in any event gets far less wear than the
drive side of the gear teeth.
If Hyundai's are prone to synchro wear, it is due to poor materials or
design.
Matt
03-15-2007, 07:35 AM
#11
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 01 elantra trans synchros?
Brian Nystrom wrote:
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>> Richard Dreyfuss wrote:
>>> Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in
>>> news:csQJh.8153$vb.6751@trndny04:
>>>> If you're downshifting and engine braking, stop doing it. As you're
>>>> learning, brake pads are a lot cheaper than transmission rebuilds,
>>>> so it makes sense to use the brakes to stop the car, rather than
>>>> wearing out the transmission by engine braking.
>>>
>>> I suppose I didn't explain properly. I don't tend to downshift for
>>> braking purposes, I just meant when shifting down from a higher gear,
>>> such as dropping down into 2nd gear after turning a corner or after
>>> slowing for a traffic obstacle.
>>>
>>> I've never been a huge fan of engine braking (except on steep hills
>>> such as in colorado, but I've never been there with this car). I
>>> always figured that there was extra clutch wear (engaging it extra
>>> times every time you decelerate), and I can do brakes many times over
>>> for the cost of what I'd have to pay someone else to replace my
>>> clutch. That's the theory anyway.
>>
>> Proper shifting causes almost zero clutch wear.
>
> True, but it's common to slip the clutch when downshifting for the
> purposes of engine braking, in order to avoid sudden deceleration and
> the jerkiness it can cause, particularly in low gears. That does wear
> the clutch considerably. I assume that's what he's referring to.
That is poor technique and not proper shifting. Poor technique causes
problems in many areas, not just shifting! :-)
Matt
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>> Richard Dreyfuss wrote:
>>> Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in
>>> news:csQJh.8153$vb.6751@trndny04:
>>>> If you're downshifting and engine braking, stop doing it. As you're
>>>> learning, brake pads are a lot cheaper than transmission rebuilds,
>>>> so it makes sense to use the brakes to stop the car, rather than
>>>> wearing out the transmission by engine braking.
>>>
>>> I suppose I didn't explain properly. I don't tend to downshift for
>>> braking purposes, I just meant when shifting down from a higher gear,
>>> such as dropping down into 2nd gear after turning a corner or after
>>> slowing for a traffic obstacle.
>>>
>>> I've never been a huge fan of engine braking (except on steep hills
>>> such as in colorado, but I've never been there with this car). I
>>> always figured that there was extra clutch wear (engaging it extra
>>> times every time you decelerate), and I can do brakes many times over
>>> for the cost of what I'd have to pay someone else to replace my
>>> clutch. That's the theory anyway.
>>
>> Proper shifting causes almost zero clutch wear.
>
> True, but it's common to slip the clutch when downshifting for the
> purposes of engine braking, in order to avoid sudden deceleration and
> the jerkiness it can cause, particularly in low gears. That does wear
> the clutch considerably. I assume that's what he's referring to.
That is poor technique and not proper shifting. Poor technique causes
problems in many areas, not just shifting! :-)
Matt
03-15-2007, 09:18 AM
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 01 elantra trans synchros?
"Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> For that matter, if you match RPMs well, you don't even need the clutch
> for upshifts OR downshifts. Again, this is not something I do any longer,
> but I experimented with it years ago, so I know it's possible. When you
> get it right, it's pretty amazing, when you don't it sounds horrible!
You don't practice on your own car. Yo do that stuff on rentals or cars at
work. When I was 17, I used to deliver groceries in a '58 Chevy Sedan
Delivery (windowless station wagon) and got to practice all sorts of
shifting techniques, braking in snow and ice, other things I'd never want to
do in my own vehicle.
>
>> I have not double clutched a
>> manual in so long that I don't remember the last vehicle that I had to do
>> it
>> in - other than a fire truck.
I wonder how many people under about 50 know what you are talking about.
Ed
03-15-2007, 09:21 AM
#13
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 01 elantra trans synchros?
"Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
news:2baKh.3149$Oc.173548@news1.epix.net...
> Brian Nystrom wrote:
> >
> > Consider yourself lucky. Downshifting without RPM matching does wear the
> > synchros and engine braking wears the gears. Whether it's enough to
> > cause a problem over the typical life of a given transmission is
> > debatable. FWIW, I used to drive my cars hard, heel and toe downshifting
> > all the time and it never caused a problem (sadly, Hyundai pedal
> > placement is lousy for this). However, Hyundai transmissions are prone
> > to synchronizer wear (as I learned with my first one), so I don't
> > downshift/engine brake in the Elantra.
>
> Sure it causes some wear, but if you change your oil regularly this wear
> is almost imperceptible. And the wear on the gears is on the other side
> of the teeth which are seldom used so you are wearing a part that
> otherwise sees no wear and in any event gets far less wear than the
> drive side of the gear teeth.
>
>
> If Hyundai's are prone to synchro wear, it is due to poor materials or
> design.
>
Those were pretty much my thoughts Matt. There is really no "consider
yourself lucky" about it - transmissions in general have no problems with
upshifts or downshifts. It causes no premature, or excess wear and tear.
Transmissions and engines are always out of synch in terms of rpm's whenever
a shift occurs - whether that is upshifting or downshifting. That's the
whole purpose and reason behind a synchro. I wondered about the Hyundai
transmissions based on what had been posted. If indeed, they do not suffer
shifting well, then that's a design issue. Brian's historical comments seem
to suggest this as well.
--
-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net
03-15-2007, 09:23 AM
#14
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 01 elantra trans synchros?
"Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
news:GbaKh.3150$Oc.173470@news1.epix.net...
> Brian Nystrom wrote:
> > Matt Whiting wrote:
> >> Richard Dreyfuss wrote:
> >>> Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in
> >>> news:csQJh.8153$vb.6751@trndny04:
> >>>> If you're downshifting and engine braking, stop doing it. As you're
> >>>> learning, brake pads are a lot cheaper than transmission rebuilds,
> >>>> so it makes sense to use the brakes to stop the car, rather than
> >>>> wearing out the transmission by engine braking.
> >>>
> >>> I suppose I didn't explain properly. I don't tend to downshift for
> >>> braking purposes, I just meant when shifting down from a higher gear,
> >>> such as dropping down into 2nd gear after turning a corner or after
> >>> slowing for a traffic obstacle.
> >>>
> >>> I've never been a huge fan of engine braking (except on steep hills
> >>> such as in colorado, but I've never been there with this car). I
> >>> always figured that there was extra clutch wear (engaging it extra
> >>> times every time you decelerate), and I can do brakes many times over
> >>> for the cost of what I'd have to pay someone else to replace my
> >>> clutch. That's the theory anyway.
> >>
> >> Proper shifting causes almost zero clutch wear.
> >
> > True, but it's common to slip the clutch when downshifting for the
> > purposes of engine braking, in order to avoid sudden deceleration and
> > the jerkiness it can cause, particularly in low gears. That does wear
> > the clutch considerably. I assume that's what he's referring to.
>
> That is poor technique and not proper shifting. Poor technique causes
> problems in many areas, not just shifting! :-)
>
I strongly suspect that a great deal more clutch slipping happens while
taking off than happens while downshifting. I would not put clutch slippage
while downshifting into a category of concern.
--
-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net
03-15-2007, 02:04 PM
#15
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 01 elantra trans synchros?
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in message
For that matter, if you match RPMs well, you don't even need the clutch for upshifts OR downshifts. Again, this is not something I do any longer, but I experimented with it years ago, so I know it's possible. When you get it right, it's pretty amazing, when you don't it sounds horrible!
You don't practice on your own car. Yo do that stuff on rentals or cars at work. When I was 17, I used to deliver groceries in a '58 Chevy Sedan Delivery (windowless station wagon) and got to practice all sorts of shifting techniques, braking in snow and ice, other things I'd never want to do in my own vehicle.
I have not double clutched a manual in so long that I don't remember the last vehicle that I had to do it in - other than a fire truck.
I wonder how many people under about 50 know what you are talking about. Ed
At least one in the USA, I teach my son how to drive in my truck, against his will he preferred her mon's auto, after he learned it completely, including how to shift without using the clutch, he never went back to auto, all his cars (4) had been manual.
"Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in message
For that matter, if you match RPMs well, you don't even need the clutch for upshifts OR downshifts. Again, this is not something I do any longer, but I experimented with it years ago, so I know it's possible. When you get it right, it's pretty amazing, when you don't it sounds horrible!
You don't practice on your own car. Yo do that stuff on rentals or cars at work. When I was 17, I used to deliver groceries in a '58 Chevy Sedan Delivery (windowless station wagon) and got to practice all sorts of shifting techniques, braking in snow and ice, other things I'd never want to do in my own vehicle.
I have not double clutched a manual in so long that I don't remember the last vehicle that I had to do it in - other than a fire truck.
I wonder how many people under about 50 know what you are talking about. Ed
At least one in the USA, I teach my son how to drive in my truck, against his will he preferred her mon's auto, after he learned it completely, including how to shift without using the clutch, he never went back to auto, all his cars (4) had been manual.