PMDR

Somewhat colder weather has started settling in and my 06 V6 Sonata
(<5000 miles) is doing some new things on a cold start.

Normally it fires up and holds around 1100rpm. Now, it's jumping
above 2100rpm and holding that for five or ten seconds. It's
something like what would happen if you started it with your foot on
the gas, which I am _not_ doing.

So what's the issue? I always heard that it was never a good idea to
rev a cold engine because it promotes carbon buildup. And anyway, the
car didn't do this in the summer. Is this normal cold weather
behavior for a Lamda V6?

I am also still getting some sort of vibration at idle which feels and
sounds like a classic misfire. It's plainly felt from the driver's
seat and heard audibly out the exhaust pipes.

At the 3500 mile oil change, I asked the dealer to check that and they
said they found nothing abnormal.

Wayne Moses

Reply to message from "PMDR" <kikaiju@gmail.com> (Tue, 07 Nov 2006 19:33:
44) about "06 Sonata V6 cold start":

P> Somewhat colder weather has started settling in and my 06 V6 Sonata
P> (<5000
P> miles) is doing some new things on a cold start.

How cold is it? Sounds like some re-programming of the ECU is in order.

Best Regards
Wayne Moses <wmoses@houston.rr.com> Tue, 07 Nov 2006 19:35:37 -0600

=== Posted with Qusnetsoft NewsReader 3.3

hyundaitech

This is normal operation in colder weather for any car. At colder
temperatures, the engine must run faster to run well. As the engine
warms, the idle should lower.

Dave in Lake Villa

It may be normal operation, but, it is unnecessary for it to idle at
2100 rpms when cold outside. I had this same incident on my 2002 SantFe
when it was new. It bothered me to see it immediately rev to 2100 rpms
when it was started in -20 f . temps. I took it back to my Hyundai
Dealer and was told 'it was normal for Hyundais' . I since found out
how the Idle Device (for lack of the technical definition) works ; I
very easily removed it (2 screws and a clip) from the top of the engine
and made a solid template (gasket) out of light gauge sheetmetal to
exactly match the size of the flange of this Device. I then proceeded to
drill two new holes in the middle of the template which were roughly
half the size of the existing holes of the Device . I reinstalled the
Device with the Template in between , and wullah...she idles at 1100
rpm, when cold, regardless of ambient temps. Absolutely no
driveability problems, or codes, and it gets 1 mpg better fuel economy.
Plus, you cant even tell the Device was modified.

This proves that cold revving at 2100 rpms is totally unnecessary , and
if it takes a bit longer to warm up the car on a cold day, id rather
have it that way .

Wayne Moses

Reply to message from DaveInLakeVilla@webtv.net (Dave in Lake Villa) (Wed,
08 Nov 2006 17:38:20) about "Re: 06 Sonata V6 cold start":

D> This proves that cold revving at 2100 rpms is totally unnecessary , and
D> if it takes a bit longer to warm up the car on a cold day, id rather
D> have it that way .

I had 5 Hyundais and even when I lived in Canada I never had the car idle
at more than 1500 rpm from start.

I too would want them to adjust it.

How cold was it when it idled at 2100?

Best Regards
Wayne Moses <wmoses@houston.rr.com> Wed, 08 Nov 2006 18:07:30 -0600

=== Posted with Qusnetsoft NewsReader 3.3

Dave in Lake Villa

'I had 5 Hyundais and even when I lived in Canada I never had the car
idle at more than 1500 rpm from start.'

REPLY: The highest ive ever had a car idle (other than the SantaFe) ,
was 1700 rpms. No doubt they rev it up higher for better emissions ; at
the expense of some engine wear im sure.

'How cold was it when it idled at 2100? '

REPLY: It used to idle between 1900-2100 rpms anytime the car was first
started , summer or winter. Didnt bother me much when it was 70 f
outside and starting it up , but, when its -20 f. i dont want it
immediately racing at 2100 rpms.

'I too would want them to adjust it. '

REPLY: I can assure you, they wont . So sometimes you have to matters
into y our own hands to come up with a solution.

Edwin Pawlowski

"Dave in Lake Villa" <DaveInLakeVilla@webtv.net> wrote in message
>
> 'I too would want them to adjust it. '
>
> REPLY: I can assure you, they wont . So sometimes you have to matters
> into y our own hands to come up with a solution.
>

Why won't they? You sometimes have to make a PITA of yourself. Call the
salesman every day about it. Call the service manager every day about it.
I'd be at the dealer every day until corrected. Parked right in front of
the bay door in the morning. Or parked across the street with a sign on the
car. Lots of ways to get a nuisance fixed.

Wayne Moses

Reply to message from "Edwin Pawlowski" <esp@snet.net> (Thu, 09 Nov 2006
18:07:45) about "Re: 06 Sonata V6 cold start":

EP> Why won't they? You sometimes have to make a PITA of yourself. Call
EP> the salesman every day about it. Call the service manager every day
EP> about it.

While I would not go to the same lengths as you I certainly think that
either they fix it or they lose my business.

I would tell the dealer principal what the situation was before making my
final decision. Bet you it would get fixed then.

Best Regards
Wayne Moses <wmoses@houston.rr.com> Thu, 09 Nov 2006 18:31:58 -0600

=== Posted with Qusnetsoft NewsReader 3.3

hyundaitech

They won't fix it because it isn't broken. Hyundai will neither authorize
nor pay for repairs that are for reasons other than to repair defects.

I understand you think that the car shouldn't idle that fast, but if
Hyundai advises the dealer that the car is operating normally, the dealer
is pretty much helpless to assist you under warranty.

Furthermore, the modifications that would need to be made to get the car
to idle lower would "alter" the emissions system. While a method like
Dave used may not be a big deal, it may still be quite illegal in some
places. Furthermore, to reduce the idle using correct means of repair,
the engine computer would need to be reprogrammed. And the manufacturer
is *definitely* not allowed to do that without EPA approval.

Wayne Moses

Reply to message from "hyundaitech" <notpublic@not.public.com> (Thu, 09 Nov
2006 19:30:04) about "Re: 06 Sonata V6 cold start":

h> Furthermore, to reduce the idle using correct means of repair, the
h> engine computer would need to be reprogrammed. And the manufacturer
h> is *definitely* not allowed to do that without EPA approval.

So you are saying that there is no idle screw or the throttle body and the
only way to change the idle is by re-programming the computer?

You make good points but I believe that Hyundai will give some credence to
this problem and do it under customer goodwill. I know that the Reps have
that latitude.

I once had a steering rack on my 89 Sonata replaced under warranty but when
time came to pay the dealer wanted to charge for the alignment saying that
it was not covered under warranty. I paid the bill as I needed to leave but
I told them I'd be writing Hyundai. This I did claiming that it was foolish
to replace a part under warranty but not cover the alignment necessitated
by the replacement of that part. I got my money back. That was my 1st
Hyundai and I have had at least 1 Hyundai continuously since then - total 5
and counting.

I think that they have to recognize that their business was built and
continues to be built on repeat customers and word of month.

Not fixing a simple 'perceived' (by the customer) idle problem is myopic.

Best Regards
Wayne Moses <wmoses@houston.rr.com> Thu, 09 Nov 2006 20:06:21 -0600

=== Posted with Qusnetsoft NewsReader 3.3

Edwin Pawlowski

"hyundaitech" <notpublic@not.public.com> wrote in message
news:ce9b18c8d4baf0e128bb2ee3c3284735@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com...
> They won't fix it because it isn't broken. Hyundai will neither authorize
> nor pay for repairs that are for reasons other than to repair defects.
>

2100 RPM is normal? I've not had any temperature under 25 degrees F yet and
my V6 has not approached that speed. I've never seen 2100 RPM idle on any
car I've ever owned no matter how cold. If every Sonata V6 hits 2100 on
start up, I'd agree, but if they are all programmed the same way that 2100
would seem to be abnormal to me if the others are a more normal 1200 or so.

Matt Whiting

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "hyundaitech" <notpublic@not.public.com> wrote in message
> news:ce9b18c8d4baf0e128bb2ee3c3284735@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com...
>
>>They won't fix it because it isn't broken. Hyundai will neither authorize
>>nor pay for repairs that are for reasons other than to repair defects.
>>
>
>
> 2100 RPM is normal? I've not had any temperature under 25 degrees F yet and
> my V6 has not approached that speed. I've never seen 2100 RPM idle on any
> car I've ever owned no matter how cold. If every Sonata V6 hits 2100 on
> start up, I'd agree, but if they are all programmed the same way that 2100
> would seem to be abnormal to me if the others are a more normal 1200 or so.
>
>

I have a 1986 Jeep Comanche that always revved up to 2,000 rpm when
started in cold weather. I worried about it at first, but after 20
years and unknown miles (odometer quit at 150,000 or so), I no longer
worry about it. :-)


Matt

Mike Marlow

"Wayne Moses" <wmoses@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1163147280@wmoses.houston.rr.com...
Reply to message from "hyundaitech" <notpublic@not.public.com> (Thu, 09 Nov
2006 19:30:04) about "Re: 06 Sonata V6 cold start":

h> Furthermore, to reduce the idle using correct means of repair, the
h> engine computer would need to be reprogrammed. And the manufacturer
h> is *definitely* not allowed to do that without EPA approval.

> So you are saying that there is no idle screw or the throttle body and the
> only way to change the idle is by re-programming the computer?

Hasn't been on most cars for several years.

> You make good points but I believe that Hyundai will give some credence to
> this problem and do it under customer goodwill. I know that the Reps have
> that latitude.

Customer Goodwill? For a problem that does not exist? The car is working
as designed. What you are suggesting is that they will re-design a car in
the name of Customer Goodwill, that isn't even broken. Not very likely I
believe.

> I once had a steering rack on my 89 Sonata replaced under warranty but
when
> time came to pay the dealer wanted to charge for the alignment saying that
> it was not covered under warranty. I paid the bill as I needed to leave
but
> I told them I'd be writing Hyundai. This I did claiming that it was
foolish
> to replace a part under warranty but not cover the alignment necessitated
> by the replacement of that part. I got my money back. That was my 1st
> Hyundai and I have had at least 1 Hyundai continuously since then - total
5
> and counting.

You don't see the difference between a complete warranty repair and a
customer who simply does not like the way the car operates? I don't see any
similarity between your experience - which is how that sort of experience
should work BTW, and what Dave was talking about. Dave simply does not like
the way his car operates, even though it's operating just as designed - no
problem with the car.


> I think that they have to recognize that their business was built and
> continues to be built on repeat customers and word of month.

There business though, was not built on custom designing cars for people who
don't like certain things. Word of mouth isn't going to hurt them if
someone goes out bad mouthing Hyundai for not re-engineering a car at their
personal request.

> Not fixing a simple 'perceived' (by the customer) idle problem is myopic.

You just read in HT's post that it is not a "simple" 'perceived' problem.
In fact, it's not a problem at all. It's not simple either, if you read
what he wrote. It's far from myopic. What's myopic is thinking that every
little whim of some customer somewhere should be jumped on by engineering
teams in the name of making sure that customer is contented in every way.


--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

Eric G.

"Edwin Pawlowski" <esp@snet.net> wrote in
news:n9S4h.6490$yl4.2357@newssvr12.news.prodigy.co m:

>
> "hyundaitech" <notpublic@not.public.com> wrote in message
> news:ce9b18c8d4baf0e128bb2ee3c3284735@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com...
>> They won't fix it because it isn't broken. Hyundai will neither
>> authorize nor pay for repairs that are for reasons other than to
>> repair defects.
>>
>
> 2100 RPM is normal? I've not had any temperature under 25 degrees F
> yet and my V6 has not approached that speed. I've never seen 2100 RPM
> idle on any car I've ever owned no matter how cold. If every Sonata
> V6 hits 2100 on start up, I'd agree, but if they are all programmed
> the same way that 2100 would seem to be abnormal to me if the others
> are a more normal 1200 or so.

I have to agree here. My 2006 Sonata V6 was purchased in 9/2005. I've
made it through a complete winter already in my area of NJ, with
temperatures down to 0F and my car has never idled higher than what looks
like 1200-1300 RPM. It does the same in the middle of the summer, albeit
for a shorter amount of time.

Something is just not right here unless a few degrees difference can have
such an effect.

Eric

hyundaitech

I largely agree with Mike here, but with much softer language on many
points.

But I mostly wanted to chime in and say that the dealer who replaced your
steering rack and insisted you pay for the alignment was ripping you off.
This wasn't a goodwill gesture on Hyundai's part, it was simply reminding
the dealer that the labor operation for replacing the steering rack
includes setting the front toe. In my opinion, Hyundai doesn't pay
enough labor time for setting toe, but that's a separate issue from
charging the customer for something that *is* covered by the warranty,
i.e. the necessary adjustments required when replacing a defective part.