Joey Goldstein

So I just bought a 2000 Sonata from a used car dealer here in Toronto.
The car appeared to be in good shape, still had 10 months and 30,000km
(I'm in Toronto) left on the power train warranty and was about $1k
cheaper than similar cars at other dealers.

I had the car inspected at a local service station that I've dealt with
for many years. The guy running this place also has a Hyundai dealership
so I was looking out for any potential conflicts of interest in what he
was telling me about this car. His dealership didn't have anything in my
price range at this time and he knew this so there really should not
have been any conflict.

His inspection pointed up a few things, some of which were safety
related and some of which were reliability related. Upon seeing the
inspection results the dealer agreed to fix some of the safety related
stuff. The right front bearing and front balljoints had some play in
them. He fixed them before I bought the car, but he hemmed and hahed
about to no end, like it didn't really need to be done and that I was
putting him out.

The inspection guy had also shown me how there was some minor leakage
("misting" he called it) of tranny fluid at the seal where the metal
coolant line (the other line is rubber I think) goes into the radiator.
He said that the coolant line might just need to be replaced, or,
worst-case-scenario, that the seal itself (made of aluminum) might be
bad. If the seal was bad there is no way to fix it except to replace the
entire rad. He said the only way to know for sure one way or the other
was to wash the area down and then look for the specific place of the
leak in a few days.

When I took this info to my dealer he poohed poohed it skillfully enough
that I trusted his opinion that my inspection guy was overdoing it and
was trying to scare me into buying a car from his dealership. He said
that unless there was a more substantial leak, like where tranny fluid
is seen on the driveway, that I had nothing to worry about. He says that
this is what his own mechanic had told him after I brought the car back
to them following my inspection. So when I bought the car I knew I might
be taking a bit of a gamble regarding the rad.

But now I've taken it to another Hyundai dealer and had them check it
out. They say that the rad needs to be replaced *for sure*. That the
seal could just blow open without warning at any time and I would lose
all my tranny fluid and ruin my transmission at the same time unless I
was real quick to pull over to the side of the road and turn the car
off. But whether or not I would even notice the seal blowing is
questionable. They said that my transmission (automatic) would just
begin to shift funny. If I was on the highway I don't think I'd notice
anything at all until I started to slow down. They've made me feel like
the car will be dangerous to drive (not life-threatening dangerous, just
big-damage dangerous) until I get the rad fixed.

Now, my dealer is acting like he still wants to please me, but it might
just be an act. He says he'll have his guy look at it again on Monday,
but I expect them to be pooh poohing me again and that this will just be
a waste of my time. The best I can hope for is that this guy will agree
to split the cost of a new rad with me.

Now why am I posting this here? Misery loves company? Maybe.

By all acounts this is not a typical problem at 67,000km on this car.
The Hyundai dealer thought that maybe there had been an accident with
this car and that the rad had been removed when fixing it and that
juggling the rad around had compromised the integrity of the coolant
line seal. This metal hose would remain attatched to the rad as it was
being moved around. My Carfax report on this car said that it was
accident-free. The dealer has to warrant that it was accident-free too,
I think. Maybe the accident wasn't reported to a DMV-like place. (MTO in
Ontario. This car spent its first few years in Quebec though.)

I think I know now why this car was $1k cheaper than the competition.

So, anybody out there have any insight into this sad story? Advice?
Tips? Anything welcome.

--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

S25

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 21:02:05 -0400, Joey Goldstein
<nospam@nowhere.net> wrote:

> <snip>
>The inspection guy had also shown me how there was some minor leakage
>("misting" he called it) of tranny fluid at the seal where the metal
>coolant line (the other line is rubber I think) goes into the radiator.
> <snip>
>So, anybody out there have any insight into this sad story? Advice?
>Tips? Anything welcome.
>====================

Just my NSHO - I wouldn't knowingly buy a car with a leak. The
dealer should repair or you should walk on.

S25

Joey Goldstein

Joey Goldstein wrote:
>

> The inspection guy had also shown me how there was some minor leakage
> ("misting" he called it)

Actually, come to think of it, the word he used was "sweating" not "misting".

> of tranny fluid at the seal where the metal
> coolant line (the other line is rubber I think) goes into the radiator.



--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

Joey Goldstein

S25 wrote:
>
> On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 21:02:05 -0400, Joey Goldstein
> <nospam@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
> > <snip>
> >The inspection guy had also shown me how there was some minor leakage
> >("misting" he called it) of tranny fluid at the seal where the metal
> >coolant line (the other line is rubber I think) goes into the radiator.
> > <snip>
> >So, anybody out there have any insight into this sad story? Advice?
> >Tips? Anything welcome.
> >====================
>
> Just my NSHO - I wouldn't knowingly buy a car with a leak. The
> dealer should repair or you should walk on.
>
> S25


Yeah, well it's too late for that.

--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

S25

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 08:59:33 -0400, Joey Goldstein
<nospam@nowhere.net> wrote:

>> > <snip>
>> >So, anybody out there have any insight into this sad story? Advice?
>> >Tips? Anything welcome.
>> >====================
>>
>> Just my NSHO - I wouldn't knowingly buy a car with a leak. The
>> dealer should repair or you should walk on.
>>
>> S25
>======================
>
>Yeah, well it's too late for that.
>======================

Sorry for the poor reading comprehension. Couldn't have anything
to do with the dinner wine, eh? =;-) Guess you'll have to keep
your eye on the 'misting/sweating' (and maybe keep an eye out for
an aftermarket radiator). On the other hand, that system could last
for many years, as is.

Some US radiator prices are:
If I have the correct Hyundai part number (25310-38050), the OEM
radiator assembly in Florida $US482 plus shipping and any applicable
taxes. That price may be higher than necessary as I do not know what
is included in a "Radiator Assembly".

On radiatorbarn.com, a (not an assembly) radiator for a 2000 Sonata
is $US133 and 'lifetime warranty'. Dunno what crossing the border
would add to the cost.

One other possibility (don't know how 'handy' you are):
If the seal fails, an air cooled, aftermarket oil cooler could be
added ( the trans cooler lines would need to be changed/extended).
The original radiator internal oil cooler could then be disconnected
and the bad seal would be moot. This may be more reasonable than
replacing the radiator.

S25

Joey Goldstein

S25 wrote:
>
> On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 08:59:33 -0400, Joey Goldstein
> <nospam@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
> >> > <snip>
> >> >So, anybody out there have any insight into this sad story? Advice?
> >> >Tips? Anything welcome.
> >> >====================
> >>
> >> Just my NSHO - I wouldn't knowingly buy a car with a leak. The
> >> dealer should repair or you should walk on.
> >>
> >> S25
> >======================
> >
> >Yeah, well it's too late for that.
> >======================
>
> Sorry for the poor reading comprehension. Couldn't have anything
> to do with the dinner wine, eh? =;-)

I really have no idea what you're getting at there, but I'll assume its
all friendly.

> Guess you'll have to keep
> your eye on the 'misting/sweating' (and maybe keep an eye out for
> an aftermarket radiator). On the other hand, that system could last
> for many years, as is.

Well that's what I thought too when I decided to buy the car without
really pressuring the dealer to do anything about the rad beforehand. I
figured it was just a minor problem now and that when and if it got
worse, like if I started seeing tranny fluid on the driveway, I would
deal with it then.

But the Hyundai dealership I took it to for my 2nd inspection told me
that if I drive the car like it is that the seal could blow completely
at any time *without warning* and all my tranny fluid would spill out on
the road frying my transmission too if I don't pull over immediately,
assuming of course that I noticed something telling me the seal had
blown, which I might not. He could be just fear mongering, so I buy a
rad from him. Well I got the fear. I'm going to talk to the 1st guy I
had look at the car and see what he says about this.

At any rate, both inspections told me I need a new rad so for me the
only question is whether or not the guy who sold me the car is going to
help out or not. At this point, I realize that he is really under no
obligation to do so. But he was reassuring me that there was no problem
with the rad as I was giving him my money. We'll see tomorrow, oops,
today actually. Gotta go to bed.

> Some US radiator prices are:
> If I have the correct Hyundai part number (25310-38050), the OEM
> radiator assembly in Florida $US482 plus shipping and any applicable
> taxes. That price may be higher than necessary as I do not know what
> is included in a "Radiator Assembly".
>
> On radiatorbarn.com, a (not an assembly) radiator for a 2000 Sonata
> is $US133 and 'lifetime warranty'. Dunno what crossing the border
> would add to the cost.

Yeah, I'll probably go with a 3rd party rebuilt rad. I don't think it
will affect the remaining warranty on the powertrain.

> One other possibility (don't know how 'handy' you are):
> If the seal fails, an air cooled, aftermarket oil cooler could be
> added ( the trans cooler lines would need to be changed/extended).
> The original radiator internal oil cooler could then be disconnected
> and the bad seal would be moot. This may be more reasonable than
> replacing the radiator.

I'm not very handy with cars at all. But that sounds like something that
would void the warranty.


--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

S25

On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 01:46:27 -0400, Joey Goldstein
<nospam@nowhere.net> wrote:

>> <snip>
>> Sorry for the poor reading comprehension. Couldn't have anything
>> to do with the dinner wine, eh? =;-)
>
>I really have no idea what you're getting at there, but I'll assume its
>all friendly.
>=========================

I missed your VERY FIRST line, " So I just bought a 2000 Sonata...".
My bad!


>> One other possibility (don't know how 'handy' you are):
>> If the seal fails, an air cooled, aftermarket oil cooler could be
>> added ( the trans cooler lines would need to be changed/extended).
>> The original radiator internal oil cooler could then be disconnected
>> and the bad seal would be moot. This may be more reasonable than
>> replacing the radiator.
>
>I'm not very handy with cars at all. But that sounds like something that
>would void the warranty.
>========================

A snotty dealer (redundant?) may try to weasel out but if the
secondary cooler is physically bigger than the OEM cooler, it won't
stand up. I figure that for today's pollution requirements, the OEM
'coolers' are used to WARM the tranny. Actually, the added ambient
air cooler should cool the tranny MORE than the 200 degree water in
the rad, eh?
Another thought; if the trans is cooled too much (never gets to
operating temp range), the torque converter lockup (if equipped) will
never engage and your milage may drop (5-10 percent?)
Just forwarding some random thoughts. The final decision, of
course, must be yours..

Good luck with your new car.

S25

Joey Goldstein

S25 wrote:
>


> Good luck with your new car.

Thanks. It's in the shop (the shop of the 1st guy I had inspect it
before I bought it) right now.
He says he's going to take the rad out first and just have a look/see if
there's a way to stop the leak without needing to replace the entire
rad. If I do need another rad he'll give me a decent price on a 3rd
party rebuilt rad.

Oh well. This car just ended up costing me a little more than I intended
to spend. The price I paid was fairly reasonable I thought. ($7950.00
CND, plus tax of course, for a 2000 Sonata with 10 months and 33000km
left on the powertrain warranty, in very good shape off lease, single
previous driver.) A few other dealers had similar mileaged 2000 Sonatas
for at least $1k more. Chalk it up to experience.


--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

hyundaitech

Replace the radiator. Period. It's even worse than you've been told. If
you still can, check your coolant. If it is even beginning to look like a
strawberry milkshake in your filler neck or you have something looking like
that in your reservoir, also flush the cooling system AND transmission
immediately. I have seen this problem cause atf and coolant to be
exchanged between the two systems.

This is a known problem with Sonata radiators. The aluminum fitting on
the cooler in the radiator cracks and can't be repaired. Hyundai has
since redesigned this with a copper cooler and fittings. Even if the
dealer won't replace the radiator, offer to buy one and have him install
it into the car instead of putting the old one back.

Joey Goldstein

hyundaitech wrote:
>
> Replace the radiator. Period.

Done.

> It's even worse than you've been told. If
> you still can, check your coolant. If it is even beginning to look like a
> strawberry milkshake in your filler neck or you have something looking like
> that in your reservoir, also flush the cooling system AND transmission
> immediately. I have seen this problem cause atf and coolant to be
> exchanged between the two systems.
>
> This is a known problem with Sonata radiators.

Well try getting Hyundai to admit that. The guy at the Hyundai
dealership who looked at it was telling me that this was highly unusual.

> The aluminum fitting on
> the cooler in the radiator cracks and can't be repaired. Hyundai has
> since redesigned this with a copper cooler and fittings. Even if the
> dealer won't replace the radiator, offer to buy one and have him install
> it into the car instead of putting the old one back.

The used car dealer (Car Connection, on Kipling, in Toronto, near
Lakeshore) appeared to be giving me the run around about this although
they were trying to appear to be accomodating and fair. When I first
told them about the "sweating" seal, after my 1st inspection, they pooh
poohed it and said I had nothing to worry about for the time being. I
believed them and bought the car. To their credit, they did actually fix
some other stuff (begrudgingly, but they did fix it...the right front
bearing and the 2 balljoints) that was recommended by the inspection
though. Today they told me to bring it to their mechanic and he would
look at the rad again. But he had already seen it before and had told me
it was no problem right now. Him looking at it again wasn't going to do
me any good. It would have just wasted my time, and I need a car to
drive asap. I told him that if I was coming down there at all it was to
get them to install a new rad. The best I was hoping for was to get the
dealer to pay for half of it. But then he says that they were backed up
with certifications right now and wouldn't be able to do my rad anyway
for at least 2 or 3 weeks. Right.

I got it done at my regular (8 years now) mechanic's place. He also
happens to own a Hyundai dealership at another location. But the garage
he did this work in is not an authorized Hyundai warranty service
center. He advised me to go with a Hyndai rad rather than a 3rd party
rad although it was about $100.00 CDN more expensive. He showed me the
rusted out nuts attatched to the aluminum fitting on the old rad and he
showed me the copper contacts on the new one. I should have listened to
him (Sammy, of Sammy's Service Center on Yonge, S. of Eglinton in
Toronto...highly recommended) more closely when he first advised me to
get the rad fixed by the dealer before I bought the car. I didn't really
understand that he was telling me that the seal could fail completely at
any time without warning. I thought I could drive it until I saw more
substantial leaking before I needed to replace the rad. Live and learn.
About $667.00 CND including taxes (7%GST and 8%PST).

Let's hope this car doesn't cost me much more in unscheduled service
over the next several years. Crossing my fingers now.

Thanks guys. This group seems fairly civilized for Usenet. I'll be back.

--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca